Potty training advice sought for twin boys

Two boys, about 3 1/2 yrs old. M has pooped on the potty many times,
even on his own initiative,
but right now mostly not. R has pooped on the potty I don't recall, but
once? It's in the single digits anyway.

My wife, who has to deal with most of the "fallout" is about to start
chewing down phone poles out of frustration. She is starting to give
the kids lectures in a very stressed out voice about how she is sick
and tired of cleaning poopy underpants and I don't quite know that they
have any idea what she is talking about or whether this borderline
punitive approach is going to help, hurt, or indifferent. Now she's
ready to have them go back to wearing pullups all the time even though
they've been in undies for, man... 6 months? So we've had more
progress on one side, definite regression.

R just had surgery on his eye muscles which we anticipated would cause
problems, but my tale here essentially precedes that. He's recovering
pretty well but yes I'm sure all the eye drops are making him uneasy so
whatever situation we were in prior to the surgery is just made worse
for awhile. And his brother I think was also affected by this
incident, at first because of all the attention R was getting.

Most of the time the boys are just fine to sit in their poop, they
don't care, don't ask to be changed. They also will just sit there and
pee on the floor or at the dinner table even though they fully know how
to pee in the toilet and do so when cajoled or given an ultimatum of
the form "you can't come with me in my truck until you go pee". But
"let's go pee" is a good way, especially with M, to start a cascade of
screaming or at least running the other way. Often they are both
defiant to go to the bathroom even to try.

This last weekend we made it the project of the day, including some
motivation of going to the toy store to buy something if everyone
pooped. When I said this, R within seconds was sitting on the potty
for a LONG time but nothing happened. My wife started to read him a
book there.

I think maybe the thing to do regarding the reward is simply to have it
RIGHT THERE and something cheap enough that we can give it to him each
time. Somehow this "we'll go to the toy store" reward seems just too
intangible plus we can't do it every single time anyway.

We tried the sticker charts for awhile and that was OK, but then they
became obsessed with ripping them up, or pulling the pushpins out of
the wall, or screaming for more stickers when they hadn't earned them,
so my wife said "no more charts".

The typical advice to "wait until they are ready" would seem to
indicate that you shouldn't do ANYTHING other than make sure they know
where the toilet is and what it's used for. I am certain they are both
fully aware of that.

Old and tired topic, but... looking to keep my wife from going over the
edge primarily - and if we could get them trained before they turn 4,
so much the better. I'm wondering if we are doing something obviously
wrong.

Thx!

"Larry" wrote in
oups.com:

The typical advice to "wait until they are ready" would
seem to indicate that you shouldn't do ANYTHING other than
make sure they know where the toilet is and what it's used
for. I am certain they are both fully aware of that.

good. now back off. completely.

Old and tired topic, but... looking to keep my wife from
going over the edge primarily - and if we could get them
trained before they turn 4, so much the better. I'm
wondering if we are doing something obviously wrong.

the only obvious thing you're doing wrong is making this a
power struggle. you seriously do not want to do this with
potty issues.
put them back in diapers. tell them they can have the big boy
underwear back when they are ready to use the big boy potty
all the time. then change diapers as needed *without comment*
(ok, i admit to saying, in a conversational tone, that it
would be less messy if Boo would use the toilet).
i suspect that, if you stop making an issue out of using the
toilet, they'll train fairly quickly. do not expect night
training to take place at the same time as day training &
don't expect they they will train on the same schedule. the
twin competition thing *might* aid in that, but not
necessarily. one may be more physiologically mature than the
other.
oh, & i wouldn't use bribes. bad habit to get into with kids.
they start expecting it & it's NOT fun.

lee
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson

Are they on a schedule at all? My DD is much younger (2 next week), and we
haven't moved out of diapers, but can usually go until naptime in the same
pullup not so much because she knows her own signs or picks up on things,
but because she's learned "before we do X, sit on the potty". If the
schedule's off, then, well, that's why pull-ups are absorbant. We do have a
couple of packs of cloth training pants and some care bear underpants
waiting-I figure that after her birthday we'll start giving her a choice on
whether she wants a pull up or training pants when we're going to be at home
(her MDO requires pull-ups until children are completely trained).

If they're going at all regularly (I started this with my DD at around 20
months when I noticed that her diapers would go from completely dry to
soaked all at once every few hours anyway), maybe you could take a few steps
back and a break, then come back later and just make it a matter of fact
thing with less fanfare? Or will that not work with a 3 yr old?

Larry wrote:

The typical advice to "wait until they are ready" would seem to
indicate that you shouldn't do ANYTHING other than make sure they know
where the toilet is and what it's used for. I am certain they are both
fully aware of that.

Yep, they're aware of it. You are right that they
are choosing not to use it. But the hard truth about potty
training is that they hold all the chips. You can't make it
happen. Only they can decide when and if they're going to
use the potty consistently...and they know it.

Old and tired topic, but... looking to keep my wife from going over the
edge primarily - and if we could get them trained before they turn 4,
so much the better. I'm wondering if we are doing something obviously
wrong.

You have made it into a power struggle. I know you
didn't mean to do that, but that's what happened. And pretty
much, it doesn't matter whether you approach it through
rewards or punishments, it all makes it a power struggle.
You can do parent led potty training, but only if you start
quite early (well before two years old). At this stage of
the game, you haven't got anything to work with. They're
going to do it, or not, when *they* decide, and right now
they've got you over a barrel.
Your only hope at this point is to back off
completely. Put them back in diapers or pullups and don't
say one single negative word about it--not when you go
back to pullups, not when they pee or poop in them, not ever.
They have to truly believe that you don't care one whit
whether they ever go in the potty again. Any negative
word you say about it will mess up however many days you've
been good. They'll just say, "Ah ha! Dad really *does*
care about this, he really *is* trying to manipulate us
into using the potty, and we still have the power to drive
him nuts over this!" Believe me, they can outlast you. They
have nothing better to do.
You can make them responsible for whatever aspects
of dealing with this are appropriate. You can have them
change their own wet pullups (or their poopy pullups,
if/when they can do that without making more of a mess).
You can provide small disincentives if and only if you
can do that without a trace of a punitive attitude.
For instance, you can cheerfully pop them in the tub
for a quick bath after they've pooped in the pullup
in order to get them clean, which is a disincentive
for some kids who don't want to interrupt their play,
but if you make one single comment like, "Don't you
want to use the potty so you don't have to have a
bath?" or , "See, that's what happens when you poop
in your pullup!" it'll just make it part of the power
game and you'll only be making more work for yourself.
Your only hope at this point is that you can
convince them that you really and truly don't care
if they use the potty. That's the only way to defuse
the power struggle, and until you defuse the power
struggle, they are not going to commit to regularly
using the potty.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Larry" wrote in message
oups.com...
Two boys, about 3 1/2 yrs old. M has pooped on the potty many times,
even on his own initiative,
but right now mostly not. R has pooped on the potty I don't recall, but
once? It's in the single digits anyway.

My wife, who has to deal with most of the "fallout" is about to start
chewing down phone poles out of frustration. She is starting to give
the kids lectures in a very stressed out voice about how she is sick
and tired of cleaning poopy underpants and I don't quite know that they
have any idea what she is talking about or whether this borderline
punitive approach is going to help, hurt, or indifferent.

If they are not pooping in a potty or other appropriate place, they should
not be wearing underpants. It's ok to give them diapers to poop in, but, if
they are pooping in their underpants, they should be wearing diapers.

Now she's
ready to have them go back to wearing pullups all the time even though
they've been in undies for, man... 6 months? So we've had more
progress on one side, definite regression.

R just had surgery on his eye muscles which we anticipated would cause
problems, but my tale here essentially precedes that. He's recovering
pretty well but yes I'm sure all the eye drops are making him uneasy so
whatever situation we were in prior to the surgery is just made worse
for awhile. And his brother I think was also affected by this
incident, at first because of all the attention R was getting.

Most of the time the boys are just fine to sit in their poop, they
don't care, don't ask to be changed. They also will just sit there and
pee on the floor or at the dinner table even though they fully know how
to pee in the toilet and do so when cajoled or given an ultimatum of
the form "you can't come with me in my truck until you go pee". But
"let's go pee" is a good way, especially with M, to start a cascade of
screaming or at least running the other way. Often they are both
defiant to go to the bathroom even to try.

I think there is a battle going on that you can't win. It is their pee and
poop. They will put it where they want to.

What you don't want them to do is to hold their poop in. This leads to
problems with constipation.

This last weekend we made it the project of the day, including some
motivation of going to the toy store to buy something if everyone
pooped. When I said this, R within seconds was sitting on the potty
for a LONG time but nothing happened. My wife started to read him a
book there.

I think maybe the thing to do regarding the reward is simply to have it
RIGHT THERE and something cheap enough that we can give it to him each
time. Somehow this "we'll go to the toy store" reward seems just too
intangible plus we can't do it every single time anyway.

We tried the sticker charts for awhile and that was OK, but then they
became obsessed with ripping them up, or pulling the pushpins out of
the wall, or screaming for more stickers when they hadn't earned them,
so my wife said "no more charts".

As far as using any type of charts for anything, you have to stick to your
guns. If the sticker is for pooping in the potty, then you don't get a
sticker until you poop. If the stickers are for having your room clean
before dinner, then you don't give stickers if they are still cleaning their
room when the dinner is ready.

The typical advice to "wait until they are ready" would seem to
indicate that you shouldn't do ANYTHING other than make sure they know
where the toilet is and what it's used for. I am certain they are both
fully aware of that.

Old and tired topic, but... looking to keep my wife from going over the
edge primarily - and if we could get them trained before they turn 4,
so much the better. I'm wondering if we are doing something obviously
wrong.

In the big scheme of things, where they put their poop and pee is not that
big of a deal. It is pretty clear that they both know how to pee and poop in
the potty.

And have some potty-trained friends over. You'll hear, "Yuck! you still wear
diapers like a baby!" That sometimes changes things so you don't have to.

Jeff

Thx!

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
Larry wrote:

The typical advice to "wait until they are ready" would seem to
indicate that you shouldn't do ANYTHING other than make sure they know
where the toilet is and what it's used for. I am certain they are both
fully aware of that.

Yep, they're aware of it. You are right that they
are choosing not to use it. But the hard truth about potty
training is that they hold all the chips. You can't make it
happen. Only they can decide when and if they're going to
use the potty consistently...and they know it.

Old and tired topic, but... looking to keep my wife from going over the
edge primarily - and if we could get them trained before they turn 4,
so much the better. I'm wondering if we are doing something obviously
wrong.

You have made it into a power struggle. I know you
didn't mean to do that, but that's what happened. And pretty
much, it doesn't matter whether you approach it through
rewards or punishments, it all makes it a power struggle.
You can do parent led potty training, but only if you start
quite early (well before two years old). At this stage of
the game, you haven't got anything to work with. They're
going to do it, or not, when *they* decide, and right now
they've got you over a barrel.
Your only hope at this point is to back off
completely. Put them back in diapers or pullups and don't
say one single negative word about it--not when you go
back to pullups, not when they pee or poop in them, not ever.
They have to truly believe that you don't care one whit
whether they ever go in the potty again. Any negative
word you say about it will mess up however many days you've
been good. They'll just say, "Ah ha! Dad really *does*
care about this, he really *is* trying to manipulate us
into using the potty, and we still have the power to drive
him nuts over this!" Believe me, they can outlast you. They
have nothing better to do.
You can make them responsible for whatever aspects
of dealing with this are appropriate. You can have them
change their own wet pullups (or their poopy pullups,
if/when they can do that without making more of a mess).
You can provide small disincentives if and only if you
can do that without a trace of a punitive attitude.
For instance, you can cheerfully pop them in the tub
for a quick bath after they've pooped in the pullup
in order to get them clean, which is a disincentive
for some kids who don't want to interrupt their play,
but if you make one single comment like, "Don't you
want to use the potty so you don't have to have a
bath?" or , "See, that's what happens when you poop
in your pullup!" it'll just make it part of the power
game and you'll only be making more work for yourself.
Your only hope at this point is that you can
convince them that you really and truly don't care
if they use the potty. That's the only way to defuse
the power struggle, and until you defuse the power
struggle, they are not going to commit to regularly
using the potty.


I agree with all Ericka's comments, but I'd just like to add that if you
totally stuff it up, and do all the things that are not recommended, they
will still, eventually go to the toilet properly.

Jen

Larry wrote:

Two boys, about 3 1/2 yrs old. M has pooped on the potty many times,
even on his own initiative,
but right now mostly not. R has pooped on the potty I don't recall, but
once? It's in the single digits anyway.

My wife, who has to deal with most of the "fallout" is about to start
chewing down phone poles out of frustration.

I don't have any suggestions, just sympathy!

My DS refused to potty train until he was 4 and a quarter year old. He
would wee in the potty, but not poop. He was just convinced that the
nappy was the Right Place to poop! And he would wee in the potty and
wear pants and they would stay clean and dry, but the more he wore
pants the more he would save the poop until he was wearing the nappy or
pullup! In the end he was wearing a pullup at night only, and regular
as clockwork he would poop in the pullup first thing in the morning and
then get me out of bed to change it for him! I can't tell you how
annoying *that* was!

I tried everything I could think of but nothing worked. So in the end I
just let him get on with it, as Ericka says, cursing silently to myself
meanwhile. We did have a sticker scheme going, one for a wee, two for a
poop. Then one morning he just decided to do it. And he did the whole
business by himself. He went to the bathroom, took off his pyjamas and
pullup, put the seat on the toilet, sat on it, did the necessary, wiped
himself and then put his pullup and pyjama bottoms back on. He only
came in to ask me to flush (he always hated the noise!) and give him
his stickers. He used the toilet the next two days, then went back once
to using the pullup (I didn't say anything), and from then on it was
the toilet every day. And I never had to go in the bathroom to help - I
wasn't *allowed* in :-) I think maybe he'd been waiting til he felt
confident he could do the whole thing all by himself before he was
ready to try!

A few weeks later my DH tried letting him sleep without a pullup, and
he stayed dry, too! (I would probably have left it longer because I
couldn't be bothered dealing with wet beds, but I was away for the week
and DH was feeling gung-ho about it. Oddly enough the only time DS wet
the bed was a couple of days after I got back :-))

Actually there was *one* advantage to late training. We never had to
wash dirty potties :-) By then he was too big for a potty anyway and
we'd bought a kiddy seat for the toilet instead. We had to try a
couple before we found one that fitted securely without wobbling, but
it was worthwhile. So maybe if you do go back to pullups for a while,
you might consider getting them to use the toilet instead of the potty.

Good luck, and my sympathy to your wife. It's awful while it lasts, but
they *will* toilet train in the end, honestly!

All the best,

Cailleach

Jen wrote:

I agree with all Ericka's comments, but I'd just like to add that if you
totally stuff it up, and do all the things that are not recommended, they
will still, eventually go to the toilet properly.

Absolutely--kids are resilient. It's the adults who
will end up with twice the gray hair and dents in their skull
from banging their heads against a brick wall ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

wrote:

I tried everything I could think of but nothing worked. So in the end I
just let him get on with it, as Ericka says, cursing silently to myself
meanwhile. We did have a sticker scheme going, one for a wee, two for a
poop. Then one morning he just decided to do it. And he did the whole
business by himself. He went to the bathroom, took off his pyjamas and
pullup, put the seat on the toilet, sat on it, did the necessary, wiped
himself and then put his pullup and pyjama bottoms back on. He only
came in to ask me to flush (he always hated the noise!) and give him
his stickers. He used the toilet the next two days, then went back once
to using the pullup (I didn't say anything),

And if you *had* said anything, you'd have just clued
him in to how much you really *did* care about it, and he
might well have decided to keep pooping in his pullup on
occasion just to preserve his options ;-)

and from then on it was
the toilet every day. And I never had to go in the bathroom to help - I
wasn't *allowed* in :-) I think maybe he'd been waiting til he felt
confident he could do the whole thing all by himself before he was
ready to try!

Some kids definitely do that. They might not be able
to articulate it, but at some level they "get" that potty
training is forever. They give up the diaper/pullup and
for the rest of their lives they're going to have to use
the potty. Every. Single. Time. They're just not ready
to commit, and certainly not before they're sure they can
handle it on their own all the time.

Best wishes,
Ericka