Questioning Doctor's advice.

My doctor recommeds that we circumcise our son when he is born, but
lately I've been researching circumcision on the internet and have
discovered some troubling information. Here is what is troubling me
concerning circumcision, and if anyone can ease my mind on these
facts, I'd be grateful.

1. UTIs. My doctor said they can be dangerous and can cause renal
failure. If that is the case, why don't they circumcise premature
babies because according to what I've read, they are the most likely
to get UTIs. If UTIs were that dangerous wouldn't premature babies be
automatically cirucumcised? How come they're not? Is circumcision
more dangerous than UTIs?

2. Pain. It was common belief that babies don't feel pain, but now it
is not the case. How could doctors be so stupid, and just
realize/study this now? Wouldn't they have done studies on it years
earlier instead of just assuming? Is the pain medication enough to
not make him feel anything nowadays?

3. I've been speaking to some people who say that removing the
foreskin is equivalent to removing the clitoral hood. Now, I know how
important my clitoral hood is, especially since my clitoris is very
sensitive, and I need my clitoral hood to protect it from rubbing
against my undergarnments. Are uncircumcised males penis' as
sensitive where this could be an issue if they are circumcised?

4. http://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm This one shocked me, and made me
really question circumcision.

5. A saw a video about breastfeeding and bonding and that the babies
need to bond with their mothers. In that video it said that babies
shouldn't be subjected to anything traumatic. Wouldn't circumcision
adversly affect bonding, especially if circumcision is as traumatic as
I'm reading on the web?

I want to have my son circumcised but contrary to what my doctor is
telling me, I have a feeling it is not worth it. Please give me your
input on this because I'm due in about a month.

I'm very surprised that your _doctor_ recommended it. Here in NZ it would
only be done for cultural reasons, and you'd have to make a special request.
It's not done as routine anymore.
It's very rare, but things have gone wrong, I was reading an article about a
teenage boy with a bungled circumcision who will probably never have sex or
children of his own now, due to the deformity he now suffers. Yep, it sure
affected bonding, he hates his parents with all his heart now.

"karen hill" wrote in message
om...
My doctor recommeds that we circumcise our son when he is born, but
lately I've been researching circumcision on the internet and have
discovered some troubling information. Here is what is troubling me
concerning circumcision, and if anyone can ease my mind on these
facts, I'd be grateful.

1. UTIs. My doctor said they can be dangerous and can cause renal
failure. If that is the case, why don't they circumcise premature
babies because according to what I've read, they are the most likely
to get UTIs. If UTIs were that dangerous wouldn't premature babies be
automatically cirucumcised? How come they're not? Is circumcision
more dangerous than UTIs?

2. Pain. It was common belief that babies don't feel pain, but now it
is not the case. How could doctors be so stupid, and just
realize/study this now? Wouldn't they have done studies on it years
earlier instead of just assuming? Is the pain medication enough to
not make him feel anything nowadays?

3. I've been speaking to some people who say that removing the
foreskin is equivalent to removing the clitoral hood. Now, I know how
important my clitoral hood is, especially since my clitoris is very
sensitive, and I need my clitoral hood to protect it from rubbing
against my undergarnments. Are uncircumcised males penis' as
sensitive where this could be an issue if they are circumcised?

4. http://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm This one shocked me, and made me
really question circumcision.

5. A saw a video about breastfeeding and bonding and that the babies
need to bond with their mothers. In that video it said that babies
shouldn't be subjected to anything traumatic. Wouldn't circumcision
adversly affect bonding, especially if circumcision is as traumatic as
I'm reading on the web?

I want to have my son circumcised but contrary to what my doctor is
telling me, I have a feeling it is not worth it. Please give me your
input on this because I'm due in about a month.

"karen hill" wrote in message
om...
My doctor recommeds that we circumcise our son when he is born, but
lately I've been researching circumcision on the internet and have
discovered some troubling information. Here is what is troubling me
concerning circumcision, and if anyone can ease my mind on these
facts, I'd be grateful.

1. UTIs. My doctor said they can be dangerous and can cause renal
failure. If that is the case, why don't they circumcise premature
babies because according to what I've read, they are the most likely
to get UTIs. If UTIs were that dangerous wouldn't premature babies be
automatically cirucumcised? How come they're not? Is circumcision
more dangerous than UTIs?

2. Pain. It was common belief that babies don't feel pain, but now it
is not the case. How could doctors be so stupid, and just
realize/study this now? Wouldn't they have done studies on it years
earlier instead of just assuming? Is the pain medication enough to
not make him feel anything nowadays?

3. I've been speaking to some people who say that removing the
foreskin is equivalent to removing the clitoral hood. Now, I know how
important my clitoral hood is, especially since my clitoris is very
sensitive, and I need my clitoral hood to protect it from rubbing
against my undergarnments. Are uncircumcised males penis' as
sensitive where this could be an issue if they are circumcised?

4. http://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm This one shocked me, and made me
really question circumcision.

5. A saw a video about breastfeeding and bonding and that the babies
need to bond with their mothers. In that video it said that babies
shouldn't be subjected to anything traumatic. Wouldn't circumcision
adversly affect bonding, especially if circumcision is as traumatic as
I'm reading on the web?

I want to have my son circumcised but contrary to what my doctor is
telling me, I have a feeling it is not worth it. Please give me your
input on this because I'm due in about a month.

My doctor actually surprised me when I told him I was not going to have my
son circumcised...He told me his two sons (which are adults now) are both
not circumcised and that the only reasons he sees for having boys/men
circumcised was if they were mentally handicapped (have more problems
keeping up the cleanliness thing in general) or if it was an elderly man
with a catheter (sp?). This all just reinforced my and my husband's
decision not to do it. Also, the babies definitely feel it, they just pass
out from the pain (they retreat when they are traumatized). When my husband
and I visited the hospital we saw 2-3 babies go into the "room" to get
circumcised and they all came out comatosed looking, and we also heard
crying coming out of the room. I would consider it a very traumitizing
event for them. I also want my son to make that kind of choice. If he
wants to be circumcised that is his decision not ours to make. Anyway, this
is long enough, I am sure other people will answer your other questions. I
would strongly encourage you not to.
Kat
Mama to Maggie 11/03/01
and #2 EDD 02/01/04

"Amy" wrote in message
...
I'm very surprised that your _doctor_ recommended it. Here in NZ it would
only be done for cultural reasons, and you'd have to make a special
request.
It's not done as routine anymore.
It's very rare, but things have gone wrong, I was reading an article about
a
teenage boy with a bungled circumcision who will probably never have sex
or
children of his own now, due to the deformity he now suffers. Yep, it sure
affected bonding, he hates his parents with all his heart now.

I'm in the US, where it's still done, and *I'm* surprised to see a Dr
recommend it. When I had my son in 1999 - no big deal, they just brought me
the consent forms. With my 2nd son in 2001 - I got the consent forms but
also tons of papers from the American Academy of Pediatrics and other groups
stating they don't recommend it anymore, etc...

I'm really surpsed by the OP's post, unless it's just to stir things up here


Sophie
#4 due 7/18/04

karen hill wrote:
My doctor recommeds that we circumcise our son when he is born, but
lately I've been researching circumcision on the internet and have
discovered some troubling information. Here is what is troubling me
concerning circumcision, and if anyone can ease my mind on these
facts, I'd be grateful.

1. UTIs. My doctor said they can be dangerous and can cause renal
failure. If that is the case, why don't they circumcise premature
babies because according to what I've read, they are the most likely
to get UTIs. If UTIs were that dangerous wouldn't premature babies be
automatically cirucumcised? How come they're not? Is circumcision
more dangerous than UTIs?

I don't have the time or energy to look up the actual statistics here, so I
can't tell you how the risk of UTI for uncircumcised males stacks up to the
risk of UTI for circumcised males, but I will make the following points:

1. UTIs are significantly more likely to occur in girls than in boys,
regardless of the circumcision status. If UTI represents such a significant
risk to male infants that it, alone, warrants circumcision, I think you have
to ask yourself why parents of girls aren't being told that their babies are
at tremendous risk.

2. UTIs are generally not totally asymptomatic and certainly won't cause
renal failure overnight. At a minimum, babies with UTI will exhibit evidence
of failure to thrive (lack of weight gain, dehydration, etc.) This was what
led to the diagnosis of a UTI in my nephew (now 15) when he was about 2
months old. Unfortunately, the UTI wasn't immediately recognized and it was
thought initially that my sister's milk supply was inadequate. After a day
or two on formula with no weight gain, the UTI was finally discovered. He
had been sick for quite some while (a period of more than a week and
possibly as many as two) before he was diagnosed, so UTIs clearly don't
represent a risk of imminent demise. It is wise for parents to be clued into
the symptoms, however, so they can be on the lookout for problems, and this
is true regardless of the baby'd gender or circumcision status.

2. Pain. It was common belief that babies don't feel pain, but now it
is not the case. How could doctors be so stupid, and just
realize/study this now? Wouldn't they have done studies on it years
earlier instead of just assuming? Is the pain medication enough to
not make him feel anything nowadays?

Anesthesia can prevent babies from feeling pain DURING the procedure.
Nothing can prevent them from feeling discomfort after the surgery while the
area heals.

3. I've been speaking to some people who say that removing the
foreskin is equivalent to removing the clitoral hood. Now, I know how
important my clitoral hood is, especially since my clitoris is very
sensitive, and I need my clitoral hood to protect it from rubbing
against my undergarnments. Are uncircumcised males penis' as
sensitive where this could be an issue if they are circumcised?

The glans of the penis does toughen up after the circumcised area heals.
Notwithstanding, you're correct that removing the foreskin removes skin that
protects the glans of the penis. That, alone, is a good reason (IMO) to
leave it where nature put it.

4. http://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm This one shocked me, and made me
really question circumcision.

Infection of the post-operative surgery site is always a possibility with
any kind of surgery. It is probably not common, but it is probably not
especially rare, either.

5. A saw a video about breastfeeding and bonding and that the babies
need to bond with their mothers. In that video it said that babies
shouldn't be subjected to anything traumatic. Wouldn't circumcision
adversly affect bonding, especially if circumcision is as traumatic as
I'm reading on the web?

My oldest son is circumcised. We bonded just fine. So I don't think this is
a make or break issue. That said, having learned more about circumcision and
my first son's discomfort after the surgery, my husband and I agreed we
would never do it again without a very compelling medical reason. My third
child, a boy, is intact.

I want to have my son circumcised

Why?

but contrary to what my doctor is
telling me, I have a feeling it is not worth it. Please give me your
input on this because I'm due in about a month.

The American Academy of Pediatrics no longer recommends routine infant
circumcision because the health benefits are not considered significant
enough to justify it. It is now a purely cosmetic procedure (except for
those whose religious faiths dictate it, of course). Shouldn't your child
make his own choices about what cosmetic alterations are made to his body?
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [22 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"Call anywhere, any time...virtually from any phone" -- prepaid phone card
dispenser

Daddy: You're up with the chickens this morning.
Aurora: No, I'm up with my dolls!

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

karen hill wrote:
My doctor recommeds that we circumcise our son when he is born, but
lately I've been researching circumcision on the internet and have
discovered some troubling information. Here is what is troubling me
concerning circumcision, and if anyone can ease my mind on these
facts, I'd be grateful.


Your doctor recommended circumcision? The American Academy of
Pediatrics doesn't - although, to be fair, presumably your doctor is not
a pediatrician.

Persnally, I think your research is leading you in the right direction -
away from circumcision. That aside, if you're going to solicit a
medical opinion about the benefits/non-benefits of circumcising an
infant, I think you should ask a pediatrician.

Clisby

karen hill wrote:

My doctor recommeds that we circumcise our son when he is born,


Hogwash. Even the AAP now says there are weak arguments
pro and con and it should be left to the parents to decide.

but
lately I've been researching circumcision on the internet and have
discovered some troubling information. Here is what is troubling me
concerning circumcision, and if anyone can ease my mind on these
facts, I'd be grateful.


Good for you for looking it up and planning to make
your own decision for your own family.


1. UTIs. My doctor said they can be dangerous and can cause renal
failure. If that is the case, why don't they circumcise premature
babies because according to what I've read, they are the most likely
to get UTIs. If UTIs were that dangerous wouldn't premature babies be
automatically cirucumcised? How come they're not?


Because it's too dangerous to circ preemies--which
might give someone pause about how nonchalant some are
about circing healthy neonates.

Is circumcision
more dangerous than UTIs?


Well, depends. There is a risk of complications
with circumcision, some of which have far worse outcomes
than UTIs. On the other hand, frequent untreated UTIs
can have serious consequences too. But the bottom line
is that while the risk for UTIs in the first year is
slightly elevated among uncirced boys, that difference
is very small and doesn't persist beyond the first year
(and some would question the validity of the studies
suggesting it's there in the first year). Furthermore,
the vast majority of the time, you can simply treat
the UTI and all's well Very rarely do the UTIs become
a chronic issue, and if they do, you can always
consider circumcision at that time (when your child
won't be newborn and will likely be at less risk
from the anesthetic. Still, the vast majority of
uncirc'ed boys *won't* have any UTIs.


2. Pain. It was common belief that babies don't feel pain, but now it
is not the case. How could doctors be so stupid, and just
realize/study this now? Wouldn't they have done studies on it years
earlier instead of just assuming? Is the pain medication enough to
not make him feel anything nowadays?


It depends on what they use. I don't know that
anyone knows if it completely removes sensation. Given
the types of anesthesia/analgesia I've heard, I wouldn't
expect it to remove all sensation.
As far as why they didn't know before, I think
it was probably a combination of things, including that
babies can't talk. They had a *lot* of misunderstandings
about babies, including that they can't focus or see
early on either. There are many things that aren't
known in medicine, about children an adults.


5. A saw a video about breastfeeding and bonding and that the babies
need to bond with their mothers. In that video it said that babies
shouldn't be subjected to anything traumatic. Wouldn't circumcision
adversly affect bonding, especially if circumcision is as traumatic as
I'm reading on the web?


I haven't personally read any studies regarding
circumcision and bonding (doesn't mean they aren't out
there--I have no idea). However, they do know that
circumcision affects the child's experience of pain
later in life, so long term effects are certainly possible
even when there aren't complications.


I want to have my son circumcised


Why?

but contrary to what my doctor is
telling me, I have a feeling it is not worth it. Please give me your
input on this because I'm due in about a month.


I wouldn't do it (and didn't--my two sons are not
circumcised, and both are happy and healthy at 6 and 9
years old). On the other hand, it's a personal choice,
though I don't see any significant reason to do it aside
from religious/cultural reasons. The circ rate in the
US is around 50 percent these days, so there are plenty
of uncirc'ed boys (though the percentage varies from
region to region).

Best wishes,
Ericka

"karen hill" wrote in message
om...
My doctor recommeds that we circumcise our son when he is born, but
lately I've been researching circumcision on the internet and have
discovered some troubling information. Here is what is troubling me
concerning circumcision, and if anyone can ease my mind on these
facts, I'd be grateful.

1. UTIs. My doctor said they can be dangerous and can cause renal
failure. If that is the case, why don't they circumcise premature
babies because according to what I've read, they are the most likely
to get UTIs. If UTIs were that dangerous wouldn't premature babies be
automatically cirucumcised? How come they're not? Is circumcision
more dangerous than UTIs?

2. Pain. It was common belief that babies don't feel pain, but now it
is not the case. How could doctors be so stupid, and just
realize/study this now? Wouldn't they have done studies on it years
earlier instead of just assuming? Is the pain medication enough to
not make him feel anything nowadays?

3. I've been speaking to some people who say that removing the
foreskin is equivalent to removing the clitoral hood. Now, I know how
important my clitoral hood is, especially since my clitoris is very
sensitive, and I need my clitoral hood to protect it from rubbing
against my undergarnments. Are uncircumcised males penis' as
sensitive where this could be an issue if they are circumcised?

4. http://www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm This one shocked me, and made me
really question circumcision.

5. A saw a video about breastfeeding and bonding and that the babies
need to bond with their mothers. In that video it said that babies
shouldn't be subjected to anything traumatic. Wouldn't circumcision
adversly affect bonding, especially if circumcision is as traumatic as
I'm reading on the web?

I want to have my son circumcised but contrary to what my doctor is
telling me, I have a feeling it is not worth it. Please give me your
input on this because I'm due in about a month.


We're Jewish, so it's tradition in our religion to have a "mohel" circumcise
baby boys when they are 8 days old. We were lucky enough to find a mohel
who is also a board certified urologist. I was against circumcision the
entire pregnancy and still have mixed feelings about it, but my husband
pretty much insisted. It was extremely traumatic for ME, let alone my
precious little boy. I did a lot of research beforehand as well.

If you're not Jewish, I really don't think there's a need to have your son
circumcised unless you feel very strongly about it. I kept arguing with my
husband about gym class. He kept saying our son would be made fun of in gym
class when he was older...I kept telling him that *I* never saw anyone
else's genitals in gym class EVER. Not sure if it's a girl thing or the
fact that he's 14 years older than me, but it just never happened.

One reason I'm VERY glad we're having a girl this time around, because I
know the issue would come up again and since I allowed Laszlo to be
circumcised I know I'd have to let the next one as well.

Jen

"Sophie" wrote in message ...
"Amy" wrote in message
...
I'm very surprised that your _doctor_ recommended it. Here in NZ it would
only be done for cultural reasons, and you'd have to make a special
request.
It's not done as routine anymore.
It's very rare, but things have gone wrong, I was reading an article about
a
teenage boy with a bungled circumcision who will probably never have sex
or
children of his own now, due to the deformity he now suffers. Yep, it sure
affected bonding, he hates his parents with all his heart now.

I'm in the US, where it's still done, and *I'm* surprised to see a Dr
recommend it. When I had my son in 1999 - no big deal, they just brought me
the consent forms. With my 2nd son in 2001 - I got the consent forms but
also tons of papers from the American Academy of Pediatrics and other groups
stating they don't recommend it anymore, etc...

I'm really surpsed by the OP's post, unless it's just to stir things up here


Sophie
#4 due 7/18/04


I want my son to fit in when he is in the locker room, and also most
women don't like the look of an uncircumcised penis. There is also a
higher risk of AIDS and STDs in the uncircumcised. These are all
issues I'm balancing. When I first got pregnant, there was no
question that we would have him circumcised. Now that I'm closer to
giving birth I'm feeling more reluctant, especially with what I read
on the internet.

I personally don't like the look of uncircumcised penises, and I know
that possibly many of his future girlfriends will have problems with
him being uncircumcised.

On 12 Jan 2004 11:25:36 -0800, (karen hill)
wrote:

My doctor recommeds that we circumcise our son when he is born, but
lately I've been researching circumcision on the internet and have
discovered some troubling information. Here is what is troubling me
concerning circumcision, and if anyone can ease my mind on these
facts, I'd be grateful.

Your doctor's advice is outside the mainstream. Here is the current
position of the American Academy of Pediatrics:
http://www.aap.org/mrt/factscir.htm. The AAP does not believe the
medical evidence exists to recommend routine male infant circumcision.

I would strongly consider a different doctor if this is the advice he's
offering, especially if he was suggesting circ'ing without anesthesia.