Sophie's choice: Surgical births ONLY

SOPHIE'S CHOICE (surgical births ONLY; no vaginal births; see below)...

ALSO: SOPHIE ON AMY'S "WORST MOTHER" THREAD (I used to be like Sophie - or
rather, I used to want my wife to clean like Sophie - then my wife showed me
the error of my ways - in no uncertain terms!)


On Amy's "worst mother" thread...

Sophie wrote:

"I don't want to live in filth or clutter, so I clean and tidy up. I had no
idea that was so weird."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm... utput=gplain

Sophie asked:

"Why do people seem proud that they don't clean?...Why would you only clean
your floor once a month?
Sorry but I totally don't understand that."
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:....supernews.com

Leslie replied:

"I'm not a bit proud of it; I'm ashamed...It's not that I don't want to,
it's that it is just
overwhelming in such a big house, especially with kids making them dirty
again
almost immediately..."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

Sophie replied (a bit insensitively I thought):

"So cos it'll get dirty again there's no point in cleaning it? Lovely."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm... utput=gplain

Marie asked Sophie:

"Why are you so sarcastic and rude to other posters? All this saying
'lovely', 'oh please' and 'give me a break', what is the point of it
all?"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

Sophie replied:

"It's called my opinion, the way I feel, the way I type. Don't like, don't
read it."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm... utput=gplain

Carla replied:

"I don't think she's being rude, just honest. I like it when people
say what they mean whether it's what I wanna hear or not. If
everybody just 'made nice' with their responses what a boring world it
would be. Plus, Sophie's posts always make me laugh!"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

That's my sense about Sophie - not being rude - just honest - maybe a little
insensitive - but honest...

Which brings me to...

SOPHIE'S CHOICE

Barbara (Circe) wrote on another thread:

"Okay, I admit it. I just don't get why anyone would be relieved to be cut
open rather than pushing out a baby...
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm... utput=gplain

Sophie replied:

"It's not the pushing, it's where the baby comes out - lol...I'm perfectly
A-OK with c-sections and that
I never had to have a baby come out 'there' "
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm... utput=gplain

As a male, I am STILL astonished that "there" stretches so massively then
becomes much smaller after birth.

Ina May Gaskin, in her new book, suggests that expansion of the vagina at
birth is something like expansion of the penis for sex. (To kick off her
discussions, Ina May says she asks women about that "tingling in their
crotch" when they kiss.)

FEMALE OBs AND SOPHIE'S CHOICE...

Someone - I forget who (Dr. Sarah Vaughan?) elaborated on reasons why female
OBs in Britain, when surveyed, said they would elect to have surgical
births...

Someone (Sarah?) suggested that this is because British OBs generally only
see birth emergencies....

MY CONCERN (as everyone knows - but maybe there are newbies reading)...

Here in the US, OBs are CAUSING birth emergencies - by closing birth canals
up to 30%...

Sarah (a British medical doctor) suggests that British OBs are not keeping
birth canals closed when there are birth emergencies (which I doubt)...

In any event, a British OB (Dick-Read, a male) might have played a role in
perpetuating this ongoing (in the US at least) bizarre birth-canal-closing
OB behavior...

When Barbara asked,

"So what is it about pushing that freaks some folks out? I'm genuinely
curious."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm... utput=gplain

(Sorry Daye, the zeal monster is gaining fast...and Ed Mathes just asked
about the cut and paste function...after Amy mentioned that it is my secret
weapon...)

I wrote...

BIRTH AND FEAR: AVOID **UNNATURAL** PUSHING...
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2888

Barbara,

snip

I'm sort of freaked out by the fact that OBs routinely have women pushing
with their birth canals closed up to 30%.

I'm also sort of freaked out because OBs are KEEPING birth canals closed up
to 30% when they decide they have to push on babies' spines (chemically whip
the uterus to contract violently) or when they decide to pull with hands or
forceps....

snip

The "Childbirth Without Fear" guy - Grantley Dick-Read - in effect said that
allowing the birth canal to open the "extra" up to 30% was unnatural!!

The Nov. 5, 1955 issue of the British Medical Journal carries a letter
from Dick-Read promoting semisitting delivery over the left lateral
position - claiming the left lateral position and "exaggerated
lithotomy" were "the result of short-sighted teaching of an unnatural
position."

Laternal and "exaggerated lithotomy" allow the pelvic outlet to OPEN an
"extra" up to 30%.

Semisitting CLOSES the pelvic outlet. The biomechanics were in the
literature early last century - well before 1955...

To make his point, Dick-Read invoked observations of
"coloured races" living in Africa, made by "100 collaborators, including
Government medical and administrative officers, missionaries, paramount
chiefs, and aged settlers who appreciated the novelty of this
investigation."

Dick-Read also invoked various ancients - including Aristotle who he
quoted ("The woman should lie on her back...between lying and
sitting..."), Soranus of Ephesus, and Shipral and Puah "the Egyptian
midwives to the Israelites."

Dick-Read continued his attack on the lateral position by noting proudly
that "the left lateral position was used and discarded by the great
American obstetrician, Joseph de Lee, who stated his reasons for
reverting to the dorsal position..." (de Lee was the fine fellow who
established episiotomy as a routine obstetric procedure.)

Dick-Read concluded: "My investigations throughout the past few years
show that the large majority of peoples of the world of all colours
employ for delivery the squatting attitude, with the body weight take
either on the feet, knees, buttocks, or lower back...Surely this galaxy
of opinion favouring the dorsal attitude thoughout the ages must have
some foundation of good sense and purpose. There is ample evidence of
this from obstetricians, midwives, and the women and mothers of our time
who have experienced both methods adequately to enable them to arrive at
a balanced conclusion..." [Dick-Read G. Position for delivery (letter).
British Medical Journal (Nov5)1955:1142-3]

Dick-Read ignored simple biomechanics published in the medical literature as
he promoted closing the birth canal.

Why would SURGEONS (obstetricians) ignore the medical literature and close
birth canals?

It's anyone's guess...

Todd

Dr. Gastaldo

END Birth and fear...
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2888

I am not sure exactly why Sophie has chosen surgical births; but I must
say - I am glad that women have babies. : )

And Sophie's choice actually makes a lot of sense if we are going to
continue to let OBs close birth canals.

What is preferable - increasing the risk of death or brain bleeding in the
baby - or increasing the risk of maternal death by causing
bleeding/c-section in the mother?

Then again, maybe the unexplained brain bleeds in babies, and unexplained
paralyses and unexplained deaths have nothing to do with OBs closing birth
canals up to 30% and keeping them closed when babies get stuck.

Sheesh, I can't believe Dr. Sarah Vaughan thinks this bizarre OB behavior is
legal.

Thanks for reading,

Sincerely,

Todd

SOPHIE'S CHOICE: THE MOVIE...

"At times, Nathan is horribly cruel to Sophie, only to become sweet and
loving just hours later...Streep's amazing performance won her a
well-deserved Oscar...Kline, in his first big-screen role, is also
marvellous...Sophie's Choice reaches its most poignant and painful moment
when we finally learn what its title means..."
http://www.apolloguide.com/mov_fullrev.asp?CID=1141

I didn't see the movie - what does its title mean?

I didn't see the movie - what does its title mean?

It's awful,actually. Sophie is taken to a concentration camp with her two
children and the doctor who is screening the new arrivals tells her she has to
pick one of her children to live and the other to die or they will both be
killed. So she finally tells them to take her little girl, who is gassed, and
then her son is taken away from her and presumably placed with a gentile family
as he was an "aryan" type. The choice (which we don't learn about until close
to the end of the book IIRC) affects her whole life obviously, and in the end
she commits suicide (again IIRC, it may have been a murder/sucied with her
somehat abusive boyfriend). Anyway, very very horrible stuff.
Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

I didn't see the movie - what does its title mean?

It's awful,actually. Sophie is taken to a concentration camp with her two
children and the doctor who is screening the new arrivals tells her she
has to
pick one of her children to live and the other to die or they will both be
killed. So she finally tells them to take her little girl, who is gassed,
and
then her son is taken away from her and presumably placed with a gentile
family
as he was an "aryan" type. The choice (which we don't learn about until
close
to the end of the book IIRC) affects her whole life obviously, and in the
end
she commits suicide (again IIRC, it may have been a murder/sucied with her
somehat abusive boyfriend). Anyway, very very horrible stuff.
Leslie

Is this the movie with Meryl Streep? I don't recall it either.

~Carol Ann

Oh my gosh!

I'm glad I missed the movie!

Todd

"Leslie" wrote in message
...
I didn't see the movie - what does its title mean?

It's awful,actually. Sophie is taken to a concentration camp with her two
children and the doctor who is screening the new arrivals tells her she
has to
pick one of her children to live and the other to die or they will both be
killed. So she finally tells them to take her little girl, who is gassed,
and
then her son is taken away from her and presumably placed with a gentile
family
as he was an "aryan" type. The choice (which we don't learn about until
close
to the end of the book IIRC) affects her whole life obviously, and in the
end
she commits suicide (again IIRC, it may have been a murder/sucied with her
somehat abusive boyfriend). Anyway, very very horrible stuff.
Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

"Leslie" wrote in message
...
I didn't see the movie - what does its title mean?

It's awful,actually. Sophie is taken to a concentration camp with her two
children and the doctor who is screening the new arrivals tells her she
has to
pick one of her children to live and the other to die or they will both be
killed. So she finally tells them to take her little girl, who is gassed,
and
then her son is taken away from her and presumably placed with a gentile
family
as he was an "aryan" type. The choice (which we don't learn about until
close
to the end of the book IIRC) affects her whole life obviously, and in the
end
she commits suicide (again IIRC, it may have been a murder/sucied with her
somehat abusive boyfriend). Anyway, very very horrible stuff.
Leslie


I get asked about that movie all the time, and I've never seen it either.
Wow, heavy.

Sophie wrote:
"Leslie" wrote in message
...
It's awful,actually. Sophie is taken to a concentration camp with
her two children and the doctor who is screening the new arrivals
tells her she has to pick one of her children to live and the
other to die or they will both be killed. So she finally tells
them to take her little girl, who is gassed, and then her son is
taken away from her and presumably placed with a gentile family as
he was an "aryan" type. The choice (which we don't learn about
until close to the end of the book IIRC) affects her whole life
obviously, and in the end she commits suicide (again IIRC, it may
have been a murder/sucied with her somehat abusive boyfriend).
Anyway, very very horrible stuff.

I get asked about that movie all the time, and I've never seen it
either. Wow, heavy.

The movie was actually adapted from a novel of the same name by William
Styron. It always sort of bugs me that everyone seems to have heard of the
movie, while no one seems to know it was a book first.

It's really a hearbreaking story, though. I was never able to get through
either the book or the movie.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Sin (Vernon, 2), Misery (Aurora, 5), and the Rising Son (Julian, 7)

This week's suggested Bush-Cheney Campaign Slogan:
"Why change horsemen in mid-apocalypse?"

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

Is this the movie with Meryl Streep? I don't recall it either.

That's the one. I don't remember the movie myself . . . I read the book.


Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:13:35 -0700, "Circe" wrote:

It's really a hearbreaking story, though. I was never able to get through
either the book or the movie.

Saw the movie once; have actively avoided it since. Couldn't read the
book.