Teenage daughter missing school bus.

In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

So, I realize that this is a huge set of problems, still....any ideas?

Thanks,

Bizby

There is no advice that will help if the parents won't follow through
with it. My best suggestion is family therapy -- and, possibly, her
church's clergyperson can either provide it or suggest where they should
go to get it, since that person will give counseling that is consistent
with her religious values.

Classes on parenting teens might be more palatable to her husband, and
might help.

Another suggestion would be to start attending Al-Anon meetings. It has
amazed me how much this has done to help me set appropriate boundaries
with kids -- I wish I'd started to go earlier. If, as you say, her
daughter is using at the age of 14, even if she isn't an addict yet, the
possibility of her sliding into addiction is there, and, speaking from
bitter experience, the slide into co-dependency is treacherous and
invisible while you are in the midsts of it.

Frankly, when you have a teen willing to take off when they are
grounded, your options become limited: grounding only works with a
child or youth who is willing to comply. If you don't control anything
they really care about, very little will have an effect on them. (And a
child who is headed for serious trouble seldom gives a rat's ass about
anything you DO control!) I found it somewhat more effective to offer
rewards: with one daughter, for example, I offered to get her a weekly
manicure for every week she didn't cut any classes and came home when
she was supposed to. It was enough to keep her in school and coming
home. I'm not sure ANYTHING would have worked at 14 with her younger
sister until she was treated for clinical depression -- once that
treatment kicked in, she was much more likely to care about the things I
could control. Before that, she didn't really care about anything at
all.

By the way, is there a medical reason she can't drive? (I have three
friends, for example, who will never be able to get a license: two have
barely controlled seizure disorders, the third has been blind since
birth.) Absent a medical reason, she really ought to learn to drive and
get a license. I've known too many elderly women who became totally
isolated when their spouses died, because they never learned to drive
and felt too old to learn now. It is a life skill that should be
acquired by everyone, unless they have a solid reason that they cannot
drive.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Karen Ray-Stewart" wrote:

elling..she needs help with this problem. I know if it was my
kids..I'd be saying you have two years to straighten up or your outta
here
when you're 16... .live under my house..you better live with my
rules...you
want to make your own rules... you can't live here.

That's easy to say, but very hard to do. When you know that if you kick
your child out, and they have no visible means of support, they will end
up on the street, and possibly end up selling drugs or into prostitution
to support themselves -- could you do it? Absent really awful stuff, I
could not - at least, not younger than 18 or 21. Even then, under 18 I
would not just kick them out -- I would find somewhere else for them to
be; possibly a relative, possibly some sort of residential treatment
program.

The "tough love" of just kicking a minor out is something I've never
understood -- and I DID live with a 14 yo who was running away, would go
out windows when she was grounded, had problems with truancy, and lots
of other things. Eventually, she DID graduate from high school, though
she never enjoyed school. Now she's taking Jr. College classes and IS
enjoying them. But it was a tough couple of years.


Aren't we legally responsible for them until age 18, anyway?

In article , "tracert"
wrote:

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Karen Ray-Stewart" wrote:

elling..she needs help with this problem. I know if it was my
kids..I'd be saying you have two years to straighten up or your outta
here
when you're 16... .live under my house..you better live with my
rules...you
want to make your own rules... you can't live here.

That's easy to say, but very hard to do. When you know that if you kick
your child out, and they have no visible means of support, they will end
up on the street, and possibly end up selling drugs or into prostitution
to support themselves -- could you do it? Absent really awful stuff, I
could not - at least, not younger than 18 or 21. Even then, under 18 I
would not just kick them out -- I would find somewhere else for them to
be; possibly a relative, possibly some sort of residential treatment
program.

The "tough love" of just kicking a minor out is something I've never
understood -- and I DID live with a 14 yo who was running away, would go
out windows when she was grounded, had problems with truancy, and lots
of other things. Eventually, she DID graduate from high school, though
she never enjoyed school. Now she's taking Jr. College classes and IS
enjoying them. But it was a tough couple of years.


Aren't we legally responsible for them until age 18, anyway?



In California we are, but that doesn't stop some parents from throwing
their kids out, anyway. For a while, one of my kids brought home
friends who were living on the streets. Most of them were not runaways
-- they were throwaways. Their stories were heartbreaking.

However, I don't know if this law varies from state to state.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article ,
dragonlady says...
By the way, is there a medical reason she can't drive? (I have three
friends, for example, who will never be able to get a license: two have
barely controlled seizure disorders, the third has been blind since
birth.) Absent a medical reason, she really ought to learn to drive and
get a license. I've known too many elderly women who became totally
isolated when their spouses died, because they never learned to drive
and felt too old to learn now. It is a life skill that should be
acquired by everyone, unless they have a solid reason that they cannot
drive.

Yep.

And I can't help but wonder if there isn't some weird dynamic going on in this
family. There seems to be a lot of helplessness (learned?) in the mother. Not
driving. Not sticking to discipline. Not getting much help from her husband.
That doesn't leave a daughter with much to go from as an example or even a
feeling of security.

Banty

Absent a medical reason, she really ought to learn to drive and
get a license. I've known too many elderly women who became totally
isolated when their spouses died, because they never learned to drive
and felt too old to learn now. It is a life skill that should be
acquired by everyone, unless they have a solid reason that they cannot
drive.

I dont have a licence.. I failed the driving test 3 times in a short amount
of time. I dont test well and after the first test I ended with a 65, 2nd
test I got a 45, 3rd test I got a 25. I did not want to go on record with a
5 so I quit wasting 4 hours of my day testing for something that I obviously
am not good at.

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/02
Xavier 10/04

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

So, I realize that this is a huge set of problems, still....any ideas?

Thanks,

Bizby

There is no advice that will help if the parents won't follow through
with it. My best suggestion is family therapy -- and, possibly, her
church's clergyperson can either provide it or suggest where they should
go to get it, since that person will give counseling that is consistent
with her religious values.

Classes on parenting teens might be more palatable to her husband, and
might help.

I just don't see this happening. These kinds of classes aren't offered all
the time in some of the smaller cities like the ones she and I live in, and
her lack of a license and his work hours make it more difficult. Plus,
apparently he doesn't like to leave the kids either alone (now) or with a
sitter (when they were younger).

with kids -- I wish I'd started to go earlier. If, as you say, her
daughter is using at the age of 14, even if she isn't an addict yet, the
possibility of her sliding into addiction is there, and, speaking from
bitter experience, the slide into co-dependency is treacherous and
invisible while you are in the midsts of it.

Just to clarify, I didn't say this. I only said that since she disappears
from home and they don't know where she is or what she's doing, she *could*
be into drugs, sex, and alcohol. As far as I know, there is no evidence
that she actually is at this point.

Frankly, when you have a teen willing to take off when they are
grounded, your options become limited: grounding only works with a
child or youth who is willing to comply. If you don't control anything
they really care about, very little will have an effect on them. (And a
child who is headed for serious trouble seldom gives a rat's ass about
anything you DO control!) I found it somewhat more effective to offer
rewards: with one daughter, for example, I offered to get her a weekly
manicure for every week she didn't cut any classes and came home when
she was supposed to. It was enough to keep her in school and coming
home. I'm not sure ANYTHING would have worked at 14 with her younger
sister until she was treated for clinical depression -- once that
treatment kicked in, she was much more likely to care about the things I
could control. Before that, she didn't really care about anything at
all.

I will pass this on. I know she is incredibly frustrated that no
punishments seem to stick. And she really misses the good relationship she
used to have with her daughter. The incentives that she has tried to use
are all very long term and often vague, like "If you bring your grades up
enough, you can go on the school trip to France." I've tried to get her to
do shorter term smaller rewards like, "If you get an A on this test, we'll
go to your favorite restaurant for dinner."

Okay, we're IMing now, and she says she'll try this for next week. If DD
catches the bus every day, she can have some friends over Friday night for
pizza and a movie.

By the way, is there a medical reason she can't drive? (I have three
friends, for example, who will never be able to get a license: two have
barely controlled seizure disorders, the third has been blind since
birth.) Absent a medical reason, she really ought to learn to drive and
get a license. I've known too many elderly women who became totally
isolated when their spouses died, because they never learned to drive
and felt too old to learn now. It is a life skill that should be
acquired by everyone, unless they have a solid reason that they cannot
drive.

I agree and I've pushed the limits of our friendship in trying to encourage
her to get her license. She says the reason she can't drive is because she
has panic attacks. I'd think that would be treatable, but the treatment may
fall under psychological counseling that her husband doesn' t believe in. I
have suggested as a first step at least that she could talk to her regular
doctor about it and see what he says, but she doesn't seem to have even done
that. One thing to note is that her mother never got her license, and so it
seems more normal to her than it does to me. But still, I really just don't
understand her reluctance.

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"shinypenny" wrote:

Does it have to do with the way she was raised? Were her parents
super-strict and she hated that? Does she harbor some guilt which
prevents her from being too tough? Or is she just lazy or
conflict-avoidant, and it's been easier to do nothing, at least until
now. Perhaps now the consequence of being lax with the discipline is
starting to wear her down and not be worth it anymore.

Another alternative explanation is that she's severely depressed.
Adolescent depression doesn't look like adult depression, and can
manifest itself with this kind of angry acting out. If that's the case,
firm boundaries MIGHT help with the behavior -- but, ultimately,
treatment for the depression will be necessary.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Hmm, how does one tell the difference between a discipline problem and teen
depression?

"Stephanie Stowe" wrote in message
...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...
Hi everyone,

This post is for a friend with a 14YO daughter. Her daughter
consistently misses the school bus. She's already missed it 3 times this
week. Her mom wakes her up in plenty of time, but then she either
doesn't get out of bed, or gets out but messes around, or whatever. I
get the impression that the entire morning is filled with her parents
yelling at her to get going, get going. They have punished her in
several ways, grounding, taking away privileges, taking away her things,
and nothing has worked. Her mom doesn't drive, and her dad works nights,
so it's a real hassle to have to take her in to school in the morning.


Massive disclaimer: I have little kids. I don't know 14 year olds! But my
thought is that they need a new procedure. Before the new procedure, they
say to DD it is your responsibility ot make it to the bus on time. Solicit
involvement by asking if she would prefer to get herself up with the alarm
clock or shoudl they continue... Then Get Out Of It. Don't say a word
about making the bus. Nothing.

What happens if she misses the bus and no one takes her to school? This is
an honest question since my gut tells me that a natural consequence of
failing to make the bus is in order, preferably one that messes with her
world.

According to her mom, there really isn't a consequence. She claims that the
school system has interpreted "no child left behind" to mean that they need
to promote no matter what, so they wouldn't hold her back based on absences.

This is, of course the tip of the iceberg. The daughter really doesn't
listen to anything they tell her. They ground her and she sneaks out
anyway. They take away her radio, and she snoops around until she finds
it. She's flunking out of school. She cussed out a teacher who told her
she'd get a 0 on a paper she didn't turn in. She shows her parents (at
least her mom) no respect whatsoever. When she gets ticked off at them,
she just leaves the house, and often they can't find her. She could very
well already be into sex, drugs, and alcohol, but her mom is a
fundamental Christian and would probably be in deep denial about it.

I think they need more help than a friend or a newsgroup can give. I've
stressed to her numerous times that they should be in counseling --
either as a family, or just her, whatever the experts tell her. She
agrees, but never does it. I think part of it is that her husband
doesn't believe in counseling, and since my friend doesn't drive, she
couldnt' do it without his buy in.


Woops. I shoud have read through. I have absolutely nothing worthwhile to
add as this is way out of my league. I can support your suggestion of
counseling, but I would think family would be the best. It really does not
sound like the daughter has a problem all on her own outside the context
of the parent / daughter dynamic. Any other kids in the household?

Until Mom and/or Dad get out of the denial/ path of least resistance/ No
Daughter Of Mine Needs Counseling mindset, my initial thought is that they
are hosed.

And I think the crux of the problem is that the parents never really
follow through on anything.

Oh boy. That thought came to my mind when I read that she sneaks out after
grounding. *Then* what do they do. This does not sound like a habit that
would be as easy to break as when she was say 2.

For example, one day DD was sassing mom, so mom told her to go to her
room. Instead, she left the house. Her mom, not knowing where she was,
went up to her room and removed all musical appliances, and hid them.
The daughter searched the house and eventually found her radio. Her mom
let her keep it "as long as she didn't play it too loud." So not only
does that undermine the first punishment, but it actually *rewards* her
for snooping and finding it. I also asked her mom why she couldn't find
her daughter when she left, and she said that she doesn't know who all
her friends are, or doesn't have phone numbers for them. I think that in
and of itself is inexcusable.

However they reached this point though, they are where they are now. The
mom is left to do most of the discipline alone. The daughter is no
longer small enough that mom can physically enforce her punishments.
That is, if the daughter wants to leave the house, the mom is not strong
enough to hold her there by force. Her disrespectful behavior is a daily
thing, so she's almost always under some kind of punishment.

So, I realize that this is a huge set of problems, still....any ideas?

Thanks,

Bizby

For what my ideas are worth, there is not a thing in the world you can do.
It sounds like you have told the Mom some good advice that she is not
following through on. I suppose she could make a stink with the father
about getting into counseling. Personally, I would not take the dismissal
of counseling lying down if I were the mom. Or I would take the bus. Or I
would take a cab. Or whatever. But you are a friend, not the Mom. Keep
giving her the sensible advice you are giving.

I agree that there isn't much I can do. I just feel for her -- for both of
them. And I can give what advice I have, but I can't make her do anything.
Still it's nice to get some new perspectives.

Bizby

"Amy" wrote in message
oups.com...

bizby40 wrote:

snip

I guess before the parents can do anything, they need to know what
she's avoiding at school. Is someone bullying her? Is it because
she's doing poorly, and being there makes her feel like a failure?
Maybe she needs help and support with doing better at her schoolwork,
and once she develops a sense of accomplishment and pride, she'll WANT
to go (or at least not avoid it so actively).

DD was home schooled until the 6th grade. She's a very bright girl and did
well in home-schooling. But going to a regular classroom was a shock to
her. Having to raise your hand before talking, not being able to get up
whenever you wanted, all the normal school rules were very alien to her.
She's been in a public school now for 3 years, and I don't think she's ever
adjusted to the structure.

In addition, it seems like she's never learned to respect adult authority.
It's pretty apparent that she doesn't respect her parents at any rate. And
there was the incident of cussing out her teacher. And there have been
other incidents over the years.

I think the worst thing though is her feeling of entitlement. She'll come
to her mom at 11pm and tell her she needs the computer *right now* for an
assignment due the next day. Or that she needs the phone *right now.* Or
that not only does she need a ride to school, but she also needs a tardy
note, or it will be her parents' fault that she got in trouble.

oops, sorry for the topic drift.

It sounds like a whole bunch of her needs aren't being met.

If my kids left the house when they were grounded (mind you, I have
mostly hypothetical kids right now, but I was a *bad* teenager and I
know what would've worked on me), I would find their most prized
posession and give it away - charity, whatever, but it needs to be OUT
of the house and NOT replaced.

I have actually suggested this kind of thing to her. I have a feeling
they'd end up giving everything the girl owned away - lol. But they haven't
had the nerve to do anything like this yet.

If they come home and their radio or tv
or whatever is gone, and they say, "Why is it gone?" I'd say, "Because
you left. And next time you leave while grounded, I'm taking
(something else)." Eventually it will "cost" too much to leave.
People who don't follow rules don't get privileges, and having things
(especially things that Mom and Dad probably bought) is a privilege.

Another consequence that might be meaningful, if they follow through -
for every minute that you're AWOL while grounded, we're adding a day to
the length of time between your birthday and when you get your drivers
license. So, if they can have it at 16 in their area, she starts with
16 today. If she spends 3 hours out of the house while grounded
between now and then, she can't have her drivers license until she's 16
+ 90 days. Then keep a running tab.

I think just a long term goal is impractical at this point. I don't think
the girl has ever learned about delayed gratification, or delayed
consequences. And it you got to 16 and she'd ended up with 5 years tacked
on, well, that would be difficult to stick to.

They might consider trying this once or twice with something shorter
term, so that she gets the picture that they're serious, and so that
they get in the habit of enforcing things, before they try on something
that's 2 years away. But I'll tell you what, I was desperate to get my
license, and I would've been Pollyanna if my parents had thought to use
that as a punishment (although I didn't go really crazy until after I
had my license... I was a late bloomer).

This is a natural consequence, too, because the price of going AWOL in
real life (from jail or house arrest, which is the adult equivalent of
grounding) is a further loss of freedom - and having a license is the
ultimate symbol of teenage freedom.

Good luck to them, sounds like they need it.

Amy

"Karen Ray-Stewart" wrote in message
.. .
to bad Supernanny didn't help with teens.... ??!!!?
In my opinion she needs to set some limits and stick to them and find out
who her daughter is hanging out with..and where she goes when she leaves
the
house... this motehr therefore either needs to get a driver's license or
get
the father more involved. I also think that this is the time for
counselling..she needs help with this problem. I know if it was my
kids..I'd be saying you have two years to straighten up or your outta here
when you're 16... .live under my house..you better live with my
rules...you
want to make your own rules... you can't live here.

First of all, that's illegal. You can't kick a kid out of your house until
they're 18 in the US. I don't know about Canada.

There are a myriad of things that can be done. Some sound harsh but really
aren't, other's sound harsh and they are.

There are some essential problems. Leaving the house without a parent's
consent is running away, and that is seen as a serious issue by those who
work with teens. Running, even for a few hours, could easily involve the
police in your town.

I don't think family counseling is going to work right now, because the
daughter has no respect for her parents and wouldn't buy into therapy. So
the parents need to make some really difficult decisions, but they are
decisions that will eventually work in the girl's favor.

In every city, there is a juvenile probation officer at the courthouse. The
mom needs to call that probation officer and make an appointment to file a
CHINS. That means a Child In Need of Service. Once a CHINS is filed, the
girl and her parents will go to court, and the girl will be appointed with
her own attorney. This is NOT an attorney for the parents, it's just for the
kid. This attorney will help to get this girl services. One way to get
services immediately is to take the girl to the local pediatric emergency
room at a Children's Hospital. If that is done, a bevy of mental health
experts will come and interview the girl and the parents. Dad does not have
to be there if he doesn't want to. The mental health experts will recommend
one of several options:

a day program--- this is a special 2-4 week counseling program that runs
during school hours. The downside is that the girl will miss ALL of her
schoolwork during this time. The upside is that she will be excused due to
medical problems, and if it goes longer than 3 weeks the school will assign
an inhome tutor to catch up. The day program will have individual and group
counseling sessions. My personal opinion is, it's a watered down version
that parents try first because they're afraid of the next step, but will
eventually get to the next step anyhow. Health Ins will pay for this.

an ART--This is a 45 day residential setting that has a school component. An
ART is usually in a girls only residential treatment center and kids are
grouped according to age and issues. They live in either dorms or small
group homes, with a LOT of supervision. When kids first arrive they're on
eyes only, which means that they cannot be further than an arm length from
staff at any times. They have to abide by all the rules, and this type of
structured environment works wonders on kids with no rules at home. They
learn very quickly to straighten up and follow the rules to earn level
privileges like movies, money, trips. The ART is usually paid for by your
health insurance, but if the kid goes over the 45 days then the health ins
and the program will INSIST that you get CPS involved. That sounds horribly
scary, but if you go to them and seek voluntary help, they'll share custody
with you and work with you, but will pay for the kid's placement. Kids
typically don't stay in an ART longer than 3 months. If they can go home,
then they're released and usually CPS stays marginally involved for a year
and then releases shared custody. If they can't go home or refuse to
cooperate with the program, they go to step 3.

the Hospital-- Kids who are very challanging are often sent to a locked
hospital ward where they are evaluated for hidden mental illnesses like
bipolar, ADHD, OCD, etc. They will work with you on medications. They
require a family therapy component. If a kid is solely there for an eval and
is deemed safe to go home, they'll be sent home. This is UNUSUAL. If a kid
is deemed unsafe at home (Running is considered unsafe behaviour) then the
kid could be sent to an ART OR to a residential program. If the child is
sent to a residential program, it is paid for by a costshare, with CPS
putting up for the residential costs and your public school paying for the
educational component. You have your choice of residential programs that
have available beds, however there are very few for teen girls, and the beds
are often full for months. In this case, the child could be in the hospital
(there is a school in the hospital) for months. This isn't as bad as it
seems, because you can visit daily in the hospital, you can bring the child
things from home, you can call them on the phone, and they don't have such a
severe structure about tv and movies like the residences do. BUT...the kids
cannot leave the ward without a staff member, even with a parent.

the Residential placement-- This is where a kid with issues gets the most
work done. This is a highly structured setting with group and individual
therapy, strict structure, and rules regarding visits, home visits, and
phone calls. Phone calls are monitored, kids cannot talk to friends or be
visited by friends, they are searched when they come back from any visit,
and they have to earn trust. For a kid like Bizbe described, a residential
setting could last 6-9 months but it's pretty much guaranteed that a kid
will learn from her mistakes. Girls seem to do better in residential setting
than boys do.

If you want more info, including an example of a girls residence setting,
email me.

Marjorie
Karen

"bizby40" wrote in message
...
Hi everyone,

This post is for a friend with a 14YO daughter. Her daughter
consistently
misses the school bus. She's already missed it 3 times this week. Her
mom wakes her up in plenty of time, but then she either doesn't get out
of
bed, or gets out but messes around, or whatever. I get the impression
that the entire morning is filled with her parents yelling at her to get
going, get going. They have punished her in several ways, grounding,
taking away privileges, taking away her things, and nothing has worked.
Her mom doesn't drive, and her dad works nights, so it's a real hassle
to
have to take her in to school in the morning.

This is, of course the tip of the iceberg. The daughter really doesn't
listen to anything they tell her. They ground her and she sneaks out
anyway. They take away her radio, and she snoops around until she finds
it. She's flunking out of school. She cussed out a teacher who told her
she'd get a 0 on a paper she didn't turn in. She shows her parents (at
least her mom) no respect whatsoever. When she gets ticked off at them,
she just leaves the house, and often they can't find her. She could
very
well already be into sex, drugs, and alcohol, but her mom is a
fundamental
Christian and would probably be in deep denial about it.

I think they need more help than a friend or a newsgroup can give. I've
stressed to her numerous times that they should be in counseling --
either
as a family, or just her, whatever the experts tell her. She agrees,
but
never does it. I think part of it is that her husband doesn't believe
in
counseling, and since my friend doesn't drive, she couldnt' do it
without
his buy in.

And I think the crux of the problem is that the parents never really
follow through on anything. For example, one day DD was sassing mom, so
mom told her to go to her room. Instead, she left the house. Her mom,
not knowing where she was, went up to her room and removed all musical
appliances, and hid them. The daughter searched the house and
eventually
found her radio. Her mom let her keep it "as long as she didn't play it
too loud." So not only does that undermine the first punishment, but it
actually *rewards* her for snooping and finding it. I also asked her
mom
why she couldn't find her daughter when she left, and she said that she
doesn't know who all her friends are, or doesn't have phone numbers for
them. I think that in and of itself is inexcusable.

However they reached this point though, they are where they are now.
The
mom is left to do most of the discipline alone. The daughter is no
longer
small enough that mom can physically enforce her punishments. That is,
if
the daughter wants to leave the house, the mom is not strong enough to
hold her there by force. Her disrespectful behavior is a daily thing,
so
she's almost always under some kind of punishment.

So, I realize that this is a huge set of problems, still....any ideas?

Thanks,

Bizby