How to break 4 year old from shyness?

"toypup" wrote in message
. com...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...
Like so much else, this is one of those things that is dependant on
the child. If a child wants friends and doesn't know how to make
them, or is too scared, then having kids come over to play
one-on-one can be a much less threatening way to get to know them
than expecting them to just "join in" with a larger pre-school
group. If you try it a couple of times and your child doesn't like
it, or doesn't respond well, then of course you shouldn't keep
pushing it.

Those are playdates you are talking about, having a child over to
play with your child one-on-one. There is nothing wrong with that,
if the shy child wants to play. Catherine was saying have the child
over but not necessarily play with shy child but just have shy
child's parent model playing. Then, she said the guest does not
necessarily have to play with the parent nor the shy child (perhaps
just play by herself with toys set out for entertainment?). I don't
think that would be right, if the guest had the expectation that
this was a playdate and she wanted to play with the child. Hence, my
reply. If the guest was a child of parent's friend, then not a
problem, because guest is just tagging along with her mom. If the
guest is a classmate of shy child, I see a problem, because she
wants to play with shy child, not play by herself or with child's
mom.

We could go round and round on what Catherine meant, but we apparently
just didn't interpret it the same way, so doing so won't get us
anywhere.

Having a child like your nephew, well, that's a tough one. There is
a school near here which specifically teaches social skills to
children who are unable to pick it up naturally. I can see where
being a complete introvert may be a problem, but does he think it is
a problem? Maybe he doesn't care if he is alone in his old age.

How do I know? He's a teen, he's certainly isn't going to tell adults
if he's lonely or not. I do know that my sister (his mom) was
worried, so she may have picked up on something. But to be honest, I
just can't imagine even the most introverted person being happy with
*no* friends and *no* connections to anyone. He does seem to enjoy
being with family, and spending time with his cousins. He doesn't
hide in his room when we come over. Like I said, I'm hopeful that it
will work out -- that some sweet girl will take an interest in him and
pull him out of his shell a little bit. I don't think he's doomed to
a life alone at this point, but I do think it might have been easier
on him if he'd learned some social skills earlier in life.

Bizby

"toypup" ) writes:
"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...
In any case, just because a child is invited into
the house doesn't mean that the shy girl has to be
asked or forced to play with the child, and it doesn't
mean the shy girl has to get the idea that there's
something wrong with her. I think inviting a child
into the house is a normal thing and doesn't usually
give the children who live there the idea that
there's something wrong with them.

I think it depends on how the guest child is related to the family. If the
guest child is a classmate of shy child and the parents don't know each
other, it would imply to just about everyone that guest child is being asked
over to play with shy child.

Guest child *is* being asked over for the purpose of
playing with shy child. It's just that that
purpose might not be fulfilled on each visit.

It's a bit like if you invite someone over, telling them
it's to watch a particular movie, and then something
is broken so you can't watch it. I don't think you
have to go to great lengths to find a way to watch
that particular movie right then. You can just offer
another entertainment instead.

There is no guarantee that
guest child will enjoy the entertainment provided.
A child could be invited over to a non-shy child's house,
be given the choice of a number of games to play
*with* the child who lives there, and not enjoy it
because the guest doesn't like any of those games, or
because guest prefers to play alone, or because guest
discovers he/she doesn't like the child who lives there,
etc. I think a reasonable entertainment has to be
provided, but it doesn't have to be guaranteed to
satisfy the guest. I think being entertained by the
parents is a reasonable entertainment. Someone
else agreed that if it's a babysitting arrangement,
this is reasonable. Others are free to have the
opinion that being entertained by the parents is
not a reasonable choice of entertainment.

If the guest child and his/her parents happen to
have the same opinion as me, then the invitation would
not imply a guarantee or expectation that
the children would necessarily interact directly.
If they've seen shy child being shy, for example at
day care, perhaps they won't be surprised if shy
child acts shy. Anyway, shy child might play with
the other child right from the first visit.

I think forcing a shy child to play together for
a whole playdate could cause a lot more hardship
than forcing a guest to accept only parallel play
and parental entertainment. And never inviting
children over could be even worse in the long run.

I think
the OP's child is 4 years old; the guest child could
be any age. I think most 4 year olds would be
reasonably satisfied with parallel play and
parental entertainment. It might
be a good idea to invite over a younger child, say
2 or 3 -- might be less intimidating to shy child, and
the younger child might be more accepting of
parallel play until such time as shy child might
start to interact directly.

If guest child and shy child's parents are
friends, guest child may just be a tag-a-long guest who just happens to be
shy child's age and isn't expected to play with shy child.

Something like that -- or babysitting -- some other
reason to have the guest child there may be ideal.

If all the kids
being invited are shy child's classmates, I think it would imply to shy
child that she needs to make more friends or she doesn't know how to make
friends and something is wrong with her.

I don't think a 4-year-old is likely to draw this conclusion,
unless things are being overheared. On the contrary:
*if* the 4-year-old notices that other families invite children
over from time to time, then the 4yo might take this series
of invitations as an indication that everything is normal.

In article , Jen says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...


I do think there's a danger of overwhelming a child who is "shy" simply
because
she isn't as social as other kids, with other kids trying to get them not
to be
shy. It does impart the message of "you're not quite OK; you're supposed
to
take joy in socializing and often". Although I also think that a lot of
the
idea behind playdates is to replace the neighborhood cohort of kids that
neighborhoods are often lacking.

The problem becomes more serious when they become adults, though. As an
adult you're expected to be able to socialise and interact a bit more
freely. It's fine if the child outgrows the shyness, or can socialise well
most times, and is just an introvert and prefers to be alone. But the same
way that kids need to be taught to read and write, they may need to be
taught how to socialise appropriately. Of course they can't be forced into
anything, it's got to be very gentle. If there's any anxiety with
socialising, that's when it may become a true fear, which can have more
serious consequences.

What exactly are the socializing expectations for an adult, though?

Shyness reported in children is usually a tempramental thing. Setting aside
the child that's "afraid but wants to", but I do think that's not usually the
case - it's a child either introverted by nature and overwhelmed, or a child
that simply needs to grow and develop more. It's the *parents'* fears that
their little darling won't get along fluidly with other people that's usually
the fear involved. And oftentimes because the child has inherited the parent's
temprament and they remember people's expectations overwhelming *them*.

So I think there's a big danger of "teaching" a child to be social being
somewhere along the line of teaching a child to be good at sports when they
simply aren't.

A child not good at sports probably needs some direction as to how to live an
active life, but a nervous parent will sometimes direct that child to
skills-intensive sporting pursuits, perhaps remembering how a colleague made
connections because of his tennis skills.

Likewise, a child that doesn't socialize probably needs to learn manners and
sharing and encouraged to get along fluidly with siblings and neighbors he or
she sees often, but a nervous parent will invite ALL the kids in the Kindy
class, remembering how it hurt to be on the wrong end of a group of abusive
popular girls.

The likely problem with the OP's child is that she's either not suited or not
ready for a big class full of kids running around screaming.

So, not liking that, will make her a lonely maladjusted child?


I don't think it implies to the child, that there's something wrong with
him/her it's just something else to be taught. But I know with my own
experience as a child, my mother obviously was a bit concerned, but in those
days there didn't seem to be any help for these things, so she tried to
gently *push* me to do things with other kids - parties and dances etc.
This just backfired. I was scared to death to do these things. When I was
a young adult I discovered alcohol, this made such a difference. I could do
anything I wanted then. Now I'm older, married, with a child, and don't
drink at all. I know I have social phobia, not just a bit of shyness, and I
work at it all the time. I need to push myself to do something where I get
to see people, even just the shops or the gym - they're easy - I can say as
little or as much as I want, without getting myself too stressed.

My mother was concerned about me, because in those days ('60s) there was a lot
of emphasis on popularity and having kids be "well adjusted", and a lot was
still to be learned about inherited tempraments. But it was most definitely not
a social phobia, except that, like another poster described about herself, when
I tried *too hard* at times, stretching beyond my social needs thinking I had to
fix my faulty self, I would be taken advantage of by other kids. That pretty
much turned me off to other kids for some time and perhaps could have turned
into a phobia.

My only real problem was that I am introverted and independant by nature, and
was simply not going to turn into Miss Texas 1972 ;-)


Of course with a young child, you probably wouldn't know how worried they
are about socialising. They probably don't even know themselves. And most
of them are just loners, or they'll grow out of it. But I think it's good
to be aware of any problems that might develop, and I think they may need to
be *taught*.

But - what exactly are they to develop towards? To find a mate and hold a job?
Join the PTA? Any two but not all three necessarily? I think people lose sight
of the fact that, for some people, attaining all the social expectations one
encounters as an adult simply is NOT the way they find happiness and success.
There's a very strong tendancy for folks to say "she never married", or "they
never had children and live very quietly and simply" or "he never could deal
with a boss that's why he freelances and pulls in a smaller income" and point to
them as lacking in social skills therefore paying for it in their adult lives,
when in reality they're happy as clams!

Banty

"bizby40" ) writes:
It's not about pushing kids into scary situations. It's about trying
to create safe situations that allow them to grow.

Actually, for overcoming a phobia, pushing a person
into *slightly* scary situations is an accepted method.
As the person gets used to those situations and the
level of subjective scariness decreases, slightly more challenging
situations are introduced, etc. There's an ideal level
of scariness to use for this process.

In article , bizby40 says...


"toypup" wrote in message
.com...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...
Like so much else, this is one of those things that is dependant on
the child. If a child wants friends and doesn't know how to make
them, or is too scared, then having kids come over to play
one-on-one can be a much less threatening way to get to know them
than expecting them to just "join in" with a larger pre-school
group. If you try it a couple of times and your child doesn't like
it, or doesn't respond well, then of course you shouldn't keep
pushing it.

Those are playdates you are talking about, having a child over to
play with your child one-on-one. There is nothing wrong with that,
if the shy child wants to play. Catherine was saying have the child
over but not necessarily play with shy child but just have shy
child's parent model playing. Then, she said the guest does not
necessarily have to play with the parent nor the shy child (perhaps
just play by herself with toys set out for entertainment?). I don't
think that would be right, if the guest had the expectation that
this was a playdate and she wanted to play with the child. Hence, my
reply. If the guest was a child of parent's friend, then not a
problem, because guest is just tagging along with her mom. If the
guest is a classmate of shy child, I see a problem, because she
wants to play with shy child, not play by herself or with child's
mom.

We could go round and round on what Catherine meant, but we apparently
just didn't interpret it the same way, so doing so won't get us
anywhere.

Having a child like your nephew, well, that's a tough one. There is
a school near here which specifically teaches social skills to
children who are unable to pick it up naturally. I can see where
being a complete introvert may be a problem, but does he think it is
a problem? Maybe he doesn't care if he is alone in his old age.

How do I know? He's a teen, he's certainly isn't going to tell adults
if he's lonely or not. I do know that my sister (his mom) was
worried, so she may have picked up on something. But to be honest, I
just can't imagine even the most introverted person being happy with
*no* friends and *no* connections to anyone. He does seem to enjoy
being with family, and spending time with his cousins. He doesn't
hide in his room when we come over. Like I said, I'm hopeful that it
will work out -- that some sweet girl will take an interest in him and
pull him out of his shell a little bit. I don't think he's doomed to
a life alone at this point, but I do think it might have been easier
on him if he'd learned some social skills earlier in life.


So, no social skills are applied in getting along with his cousins and family??

There may be a bigger issue here. Apparently to me, it's not that he doesn't
have friends - it's that he doesnt' have the kind of friend he runs around with
outside the home! Is that a good thing or a bad thing really?

Perhaps, if you feel a social circle should be wider than that - I see that the
FAMILY isn't socializing with anything but relatives! No church groups? No
friends with children their son's age? I have friends with people with sons my
son's age from our earlier Cub Scout involvements. Others here have described
their church membership being a primary source of friends for their teens. Of
course one needn't be religious (I'm sure not), but it seems that the
expectation here is not so much for socializing, but that there has to be social
plans outside family. You didn't describe a withdrawn kid here. Just one not
doing the hangin' out teen thang.

And if you view that as a problem for him, I wonder why it isn't a problem for
the family. (Probably it isn't, but still....) If you nonetheless view it as a
problem, then perhaps you should be considering how the family can mitigate
their habits of only socializing with relatives, and no one with kids their
kids' ages. That should help eveyone in your view - right?

Finally, consider that maybe he isn't comfortable telling his family that it
will be a sweet *boy* that will take him "out of his shell".

Is he happy - or not. Does he act happy - or not.

Banty (so tired of introverts being told to get out of our shells!)

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40
says...


"toypup" wrote in message
y.com...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...
Like so much else, this is one of those things that is dependant on
the child. If a child wants friends and doesn't know how to make
them, or is too scared, then having kids come over to play
one-on-one can be a much less threatening way to get to know them
than expecting them to just "join in" with a larger pre-school
group. If you try it a couple of times and your child doesn't like
it, or doesn't respond well, then of course you shouldn't keep
pushing it.

Those are playdates you are talking about, having a child over to
play with your child one-on-one. There is nothing wrong with that,
if the shy child wants to play. Catherine was saying have the child
over but not necessarily play with shy child but just have shy
child's parent model playing. Then, she said the guest does not
necessarily have to play with the parent nor the shy child (perhaps
just play by herself with toys set out for entertainment?). I don't
think that would be right, if the guest had the expectation that
this was a playdate and she wanted to play with the child. Hence, my
reply. If the guest was a child of parent's friend, then not a
problem, because guest is just tagging along with her mom. If the
guest is a classmate of shy child, I see a problem, because she
wants to play with shy child, not play by herself or with child's
mom.

We could go round and round on what Catherine meant, but we apparently
just didn't interpret it the same way, so doing so won't get us
anywhere.

Having a child like your nephew, well, that's a tough one. There is
a school near here which specifically teaches social skills to
children who are unable to pick it up naturally. I can see where
being a complete introvert may be a problem, but does he think it is
a problem? Maybe he doesn't care if he is alone in his old age.

How do I know? He's a teen, he's certainly isn't going to tell adults
if he's lonely or not. I do know that my sister (his mom) was
worried, so she may have picked up on something. But to be honest, I
just can't imagine even the most introverted person being happy with
*no* friends and *no* connections to anyone. He does seem to enjoy
being with family, and spending time with his cousins. He doesn't
hide in his room when we come over. Like I said, I'm hopeful that it
will work out -- that some sweet girl will take an interest in him and
pull him out of his shell a little bit. I don't think he's doomed to
a life alone at this point, but I do think it might have been easier
on him if he'd learned some social skills earlier in life.


So, no social skills are applied in getting along with his cousins and
family??

There may be a bigger issue here. Apparently to me, it's not that he
doesn't
have friends - it's that he doesnt' have the kind of friend he runs around
with
outside the home! Is that a good thing or a bad thing really?

Perhaps, if you feel a social circle should be wider than that - I see
that the
FAMILY isn't socializing with anything but relatives! No church groups?
No
friends with children their son's age? I have friends with people with
sons my
son's age from our earlier Cub Scout involvements. Others here have
described
their church membership being a primary source of friends for their teens.
Of
course one needn't be religious (I'm sure not), but it seems that the
expectation here is not so much for socializing, but that there has to be
social
plans outside family. You didn't describe a withdrawn kid here. Just one
not
doing the hangin' out teen thang.

And if you view that as a problem for him, I wonder why it isn't a problem
for
the family. (Probably it isn't, but still....) If you nonetheless view
it as a
problem, then perhaps you should be considering how the family can
mitigate
their habits of only socializing with relatives, and no one with kids
their
kids' ages. That should help eveyone in your view - right?

Finally, consider that maybe he isn't comfortable telling his family that
it
will be a sweet *boy* that will take him "out of his shell".

Is he happy - or not. Does he act happy - or not.

I can see where Bisby may be coming from here. My brother is a shy
introverted person, and fine, we're all like that. But I think it has
developed into more of a problem since he's become an adult. He makes no
effort to get to know anyone.
His social life is basically going back to my parents at weekends. Because
they feel sorry for him not having friends they revolve everything round
him. He has always been very manipulative with them and he only has to
threaten to go back home and they jump to whatever he wants.
Mum can't suggest ways to be more pleasant to be around (like not having the
radio on full blast so all the house can hear it when people are trying to
sleep) without him taking the hump.
Really his social skills are almost non-existent and, no, I don't think he's
happy with it.
My mum would be thrilled if anyone, male or female, came along.

I think part of it was that he didn't have any need for other people when he
was younger, so didn't learn social skills at the age when you'd expect. Now
he would like to socialise he doesn't know how to but feels too old to be
advised by anyone.
Personally I don't know what to do about him. He's not happy, but really
there's not much can be done without his cooperation, and he'd take the hump
if anyone suggested things.

As a teenager he socialised a bit, not voluntarily, but due to
circumstances-like school. He would socialise with family sometimes, but
could be very rude. Now all his socialising is really with my parents and as
they kowtow to everything he does it's not exactly a normal relationship,
nor one that helps his social skills as he now expects eveyone else to do
the same, so he's really getting worse and worse as he gets older. He's got
himself out of the habit of being round people and it gets harder to change
with each time he refuses to go to things he's been invited to.
That, I think, is what Bisby is concerned could happen.
Debbie
Ps. My sister, on the other hand, wasn't very sociable until university, now
she's very sociable with tons of friends so it certainly isn't a slippery
slope you can't stop...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"toypup" wrote in message
. com...
Having a child like your nephew, well, that's a tough one. There is a
school near here which specifically teaches social skills to children who
are unable to pick it up naturally. I can see where being a complete
introvert may be a problem, but does he think it is a problem? Maybe he
doesn't care if he is alone in his old age.

How do I know? He's a teen, he's certainly isn't going to tell adults if
he's lonely or not. I do know that my sister (his mom) was worried, so
she may have picked up on something. But to be honest, I just can't
imagine even the most introverted person being happy with *no* friends and
*no* connections to anyone. He does seem to enjoy being with family, and
spending time with his cousins. He doesn't hide in his room when we come
over. Like I said, I'm hopeful that it will work out -- that some sweet
girl will take an interest in him and pull him out of his shell a little
bit. I don't think he's doomed to a life alone at this point, but I do
think it might have been easier on him if he'd learned some social skills
earlier in life.

Your nephew isn't exactly lonely. He has family and may view them as
friends, so he may not think of himself as having no friends. I know people
who were raised to not trust anyone outside of family (not a healthy thing,
IMO, and not necessarily true of your nephew's family), so they build their
social structure on their immediate and extended family. Their cousins ARE
their friends.

OTOH, I do get that some people never get social skills when most people
pick them up. My brother is one of them. I'm not sure what would have
helped him. My mom wasn't/isn't big into social skills. She doesn't think
it's important. I think the special school for social skills would have
benefitted him.

Banty wrote:
In article , Jen says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...


I do think there's a danger of overwhelming a child who is "shy" simply
because
she isn't as social as other kids, with other kids trying to get them not
to be
shy. It does impart the message of "you're not quite OK; you're supposed
to
take joy in socializing and often". Although I also think that a lot of
the
idea behind playdates is to replace the neighborhood cohort of kids that
neighborhoods are often lacking.

The problem becomes more serious when they become adults, though. As an
adult you're expected to be able to socialise and interact a bit more
freely. It's fine if the child outgrows the shyness, or can socialise well
most times, and is just an introvert and prefers to be alone. But the same
way that kids need to be taught to read and write, they may need to be
taught how to socialise appropriately. Of course they can't be forced into
anything, it's got to be very gentle. If there's any anxiety with
socialising, that's when it may become a true fear, which can have more
serious consequences.

What exactly are the socializing expectations for an adult, though?

Shyness reported in children is usually a tempramental thing. Setting aside
the child that's "afraid but wants to", but I do think that's not usually the
case - it's a child either introverted by nature and overwhelmed, or a child
that simply needs to grow and develop more. It's the *parents'* fears that
their little darling won't get along fluidly with other people that's usually
the fear involved. And oftentimes because the child has inherited the parent's
temprament and they remember people's expectations overwhelming *them*.

So I think there's a big danger of "teaching" a child to be social being
somewhere along the line of teaching a child to be good at sports when they
simply aren't.

A child not good at sports probably needs some direction as to how to live an
active life, but a nervous parent will sometimes direct that child to
skills-intensive sporting pursuits, perhaps remembering how a colleague made
connections because of his tennis skills.

Likewise, a child that doesn't socialize probably needs to learn manners and
sharing and encouraged to get along fluidly with siblings and neighbors he or
she sees often, but a nervous parent will invite ALL the kids in the Kindy
class, remembering how it hurt to be on the wrong end of a group of abusive
popular girls.

The likely problem with the OP's child is that she's either not suited or not
ready for a big class full of kids running around screaming.


So, not liking that, will make her a lonely maladjusted child?

It sounds as if his daughter's an only child, and hasn't had much
exposure to other children in one-on-one situations. I'd think modeling
how to interact with other kids, and encouraging some individual
playdates would be more helpful than harmful at this young age.

(Of course, I'd also think it's more helpful than harmful for a kid to
go out and play catch or Frisbee with a parent, maybe getting a few
pointers on technique. Even if the kid ultimately decides organized
sports aren't for him, it can be good bonding time, reinforce the idea
of an active lifestyle and make the kid more comfortable playing with
other kids.

Of course with a young child, you probably wouldn't know how worried they
are about socialising. They probably don't even know themselves. And most
of them are just loners, or they'll grow out of it. But I think it's good
to be aware of any problems that might develop, and I think they may need to
be *taught*.

But - what exactly are they to develop towards? To find a mate and hold a job?
Join the PTA? Any two but not all three necessarily?

How about "to be able to be comfortable in the necessary encounters of
one's chosen lifestyle and profession"? (Freelancers often need really
good social skills, by the way -- it's hard work to charm potential
employers and effective ones know how ot do it without becoming a
PITA).

In much the same way that I hope my kids turn out to be able to take
care of themselves financially as adults, I'd also like them to have
the social skills to be able to build a support system
to help sustain them through life's inevitable rough times. While the
size and shape of support system will vary according to personal
preference, I think our species is social enough that very few of us
would be happy as clams living isolated in the wilderness. (Even the
voyageurs returned regularly to civilization!)

Lori G.
Milwaukee, WI

In article , Welches says...



Is he happy - or not. Does he act happy - or not.

I can see where Bisby may be coming from here. My brother is a shy
introverted person, and fine, we're all like that. But I think it has
developed into more of a problem since he's become an adult. He makes no
effort to get to know anyone.
His social life is basically going back to my parents at weekends. Because
they feel sorry for him not having friends they revolve everything round
him. He has always been very manipulative with them and he only has to
threaten to go back home and they jump to whatever he wants.
Mum can't suggest ways to be more pleasant to be around (like not having the
radio on full blast so all the house can hear it when people are trying to
sleep) without him taking the hump.
Really his social skills are almost non-existent and, no, I don't think he's
happy with it.
My mum would be thrilled if anyone, male or female, came along.

I think part of it was that he didn't have any need for other people when he
was younger, so didn't learn social skills at the age when you'd expect. Now
he would like to socialise he doesn't know how to but feels too old to be
advised by anyone.
Personally I don't know what to do about him. He's not happy, but really
there's not much can be done without his cooperation, and he'd take the hump
if anyone suggested things.

As a teenager he socialised a bit, not voluntarily, but due to
circumstances-like school. He would socialise with family sometimes, but
could be very rude. Now all his socialising is really with my parents and as
they kowtow to everything he does it's not exactly a normal relationship,
nor one that helps his social skills as he now expects eveyone else to do
the same, so he's really getting worse and worse as he gets older. He's got
himself out of the habit of being round people and it gets harder to change
with each time he refuses to go to things he's been invited to.
That, I think, is what Bisby is concerned could happen.
Debbie
Ps. My sister, on the other hand, wasn't very sociable until university, now
she's very sociable with tons of friends so it certainly isn't a slippery
slope you can't stop...



Your brother's case frankly sounds like something a lot deeper than just not
learning to socialize - it sounds more like a personality disorder. A close
family member of mine likely has a personality disorder (privacy rules prevent
us knowing more than she wants to tell) - HPD, and it leads to a lot of
manipulative and attention -seeking behavior. Folks with certain versions of
these disorders are actually quite charming on first meeting and socialize as
much as they can, but the problem is that the whole aspect and the manipulative
behaviors drive people away and compromise their lives in many ways, and, yes,
they end up alone or only associating with certain tolerant family members.

http://www.focusas.com/PersonalityDisorders.html

That kind of thing isn't a matter of not having learned to share at two, or not
enough time hanging out at the mall or ballfield at 14.

It's not very ameliorative to treatment, either - all the defensive mechanisms
you describe pretty much derail any efforts :-(

Although it's frustrating how much people confuse actual pathology and
maladjustment with just plain 'ol non-sociability or being introverted. We're
always being "fixed" so's we don't become schizoid...

Banty (wanna me come out of my shell NOW??!? :-)

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Welches says...


http://www.focusas.com/PersonalityDisorders.html

Thanks: That's interesting. He could go into 2 or 3 catagories, there,
though he wouldn't thank me for saying that. (understatement of the year
there)

That kind of thing isn't a matter of not having learned to share at two,
or not
enough time hanging out at the mall or ballfield at 14.

He is like my dad in some ways, but worse, so some of it is personality.
(And dad has some characteristics like his mum in that regard too) but I do
think some of it is down to my parents' handling of him.
I'm sort of dreading if #3 is a boy cause then I'll have 2 girls followed by
a boy, and can't help wondering whether I'll do the same mistakes-or over
compensate and be too strict.... maybe it's just pregnancy hormones ;-)
The sort of thing I'm thinking about on handling was when he was about 12 we
spent a summer holiday with mum running round doing everything she thought
he might want to do in the hope he would spontaniously say "I liked that,
thank you" (he didn't)
So she'd take him out for the day to something she thought he would like to
do, and when she got back tired he'd say "well I went with you to *** so now
it's your turn to do something for me, so take me to tennis" when they got
back from tennis he'd say "wasn't I good taking you to tennis, I didn't want
to go, but I went for you, now you can do *** for me". etc. And at no point
would mum say anything other than do as he wanted.
In that, I think he learned that if he didn't say he liked something then he
could get mum to do more by piling on the guilt and saying that he'd done
everything for her-and maybe he actually thought he was doing her a favour.

It's not very ameliorative to treatment, either - all the defensive
mechanisms
you describe pretty much derail any efforts :-(

Well, I can't see him admitting it anyway so I don't think having a
brilliant treatment would be any help at all!

Although it's frustrating how much people confuse actual pathology and
maladjustment with just plain 'ol non-sociability or being introverted.
We're
always being "fixed" so's we don't become schizoid...

I've also wondered whether he could be on the autism scale somewhere. Again,
he wouldn't admit it, so it wouldn't be much help.

My main worry is what happens when mum and dad die. Will he just retreat
from human life entirely, or will he expect me and my sister to treat him as
mum does. The latter is not going to happen really, so what when we refuse
to treat him like that?

Banty (wanna me come out of my shell NOW??!? :-)
Yes. Come out now. Stop protesting or I'll know you're schizoid... come and
socialise properly...
Debbie :-)