can someone give me some advice?

CDeVil:
You will see that she asked for advice.

klaatu:
agreed; she did.

CDeVil:
She was given some great advice

klaatu:
agreed; she was.

CDeVil:
and for some reason thought everyone was attacking her.

klaatu:
"for some reason" my ass;

the girl asked practical advice;
she got plenty, and thanked folks for it:

she also got typical adult judgemental editorials
which she did NOT ask for.
this, in my opinion, was what angered her.

CDeVil:
She then proceeded to jump down everyone's throats there.

klaatu:
no.
that's an OPINION, though you state it as if it were fact.

i've read every word of that thread,
which forms the basis for a very different opinion.

i don't see that Krystle 'jumped down everyone's throats';
looks to me like she resented gratuitous hassle.

she did so in emphatic terms.

several adults in mks immediately dropped on her for that,
but two mks adults paid enough attention
to realize that she had reason to object.

unfortunately, others seemed to ignore those points
and dumped on her, chiefly for her vehemence.
they also ignored the two mks-posters who supported her.

it's no wonder Krystle teed off - i'd have done so as well.

her reasoning and expression seem clear enough to me
that i have great difficulty believing
that you truly don't understand what angered her,
either then or now;

still, i would rather think well of you than ill,
so i'll explain to you what i got from this thread, and why.

if i mistake her, KrystleN can correct me,
and thus educated mayhap you and i may both gain something.

---===oxoXoxo===---

klaatu:
i got this main meaning from Krystle's first post:

Subject: can someone give me some advice?
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:09:09 -0600 (CST)

Krystle:
... i think i might be pregnant ...
i don't want to tell my mom cuz ... if she finds out ...
... she's goin to get very upset...and i don't want that to happen....
... can someone just help me through this ....
i really need someone to talk to about this..

klaatu:
note that she's asking for HELP;
she's looking for Options, not Directions,
nor a graded critique of her actions, attitudes or life.

Dagny, Nan, Donna, Anne Marie, Nikki and Super Eeyore responded.
in all six cases advice was quite good.

however, since present purpose is to examine
how mis-communication turned this thread awry,
i've elided the advice to concentrate other points.

1. Dagny - useful, concise, clear,
marred only slightly by these "editorial" bits:

Lines: 47
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:56:12 GMT

I think you also need to give your mom some credit,
that it was appropriate in this instance to invade your privacy.
She is trying to protect you from the very thing you currently fear
(being pregnant so young).
...
You should really tell your mom. She loves you in a very essential way.

klaatu:
these are essentially politcal slogans,
recited mechanically pro-forma in service of Established Authority.
they are not advice; they help nothing.

Dagny doesn't know Krystle's mother, and has no idea in the world
whether the woman's trying to 'protect' Krystle,
or merely control her as other owners control other property,
or even whether she cares about Krystle at all;

she's assuming Krystle's mom is the Standard Issue
State-approved generic Motherhood Unit.

just making that assumption
sets off warning-buzzers in my head straightaway,
for two main reasons:

(1)
this is not advice; this is an attempt to command;

Krystle did not come seeking some-one to lead her.
she came for options on what COULD be done
and HOW those things might be accomplished,
so that she herself might better choose what to do.
most of Dagny's bit does that very well.

(2)
although most of Dagny's advice is practical,
here the writer is, in effect,
telling Krystle to give her mother control of the situation.

her mother has already shown herself unworthy of trust,
but even if she WERE trust-worthy, telling her anything
instantly ends any control Krystle might have.

she went through Krystle's stuff as if it were her own;
for me and my crowd there is NO possible excuse to justify that;
it says she thinks of her kid as property.

the "protection" excuse is total bull****, and will not work.

that excuse first came on record in America in 1638,
when Dorothy Talbye
became the first American woman hanged for murder.

she killed her daughter to "protect" her from the degradation
of growing up female in Puritan society.

it's most recent apogee of logical absurdity was 1970,
when "Genie" was discovered in California.
her parents kept her locked up naked since birth
strapped to a potty-chair to keep her clean,
in a closet - to "protect" her from outside evil.

when discovered, she was 14, looked about nine,
and could neither walk nor talk.

point:
the "protection" gambit is excuse for every possible atrocity;
"protection" is NOT valid excuse to invade privacy.
any advisor who urges such a thing
automatically reduces credibility by at least half.

i've seen women shouldering each other aside
for the chance to sell their children as ****-toys;

a woman offered me a six-week girl for $25,
and when i asked what i was supposed to do with the kid,
she said:
"You can grow it and **** it, or you can eat it;
it ain' nothin' to me, just twenny-five dollars takes it away."

trusting generic Motherhood can be a terrible mistake,
easily as dangerous as un-protected sex,
and for the same reason -
once you take the step, you can't take it back.

that is usually,
if you let adults have the least bit of control,
they try to take over, "for your own good".

they almost always promise they won't meddle,
and they almost always break that promise.
it's *definitely* always a gamble whether they'll betray you.

seems obvious that when one's already got trouble
adding another un-predictable (and un-controllable) factor
is a serious mistake under almost any circumstances.

Krystle made it clear at the outset
that she didn't want to tell her mother;

among my crowd, if some-one asks advice,
you give 'em what they ask or tell 'em to ask some-one else;

you don't start pushing them any direction at all,
and most assuredly not
when they've already told you specifically
that they don't want to do a particular thing.

asking advice on What to do, or How to do it
is not an invitation for people to tell you
Whether you Should do it, or Why it 'must' be done.

my impression is that Dagny's intentions are benevolent,
and that most of that advice was very useful,

but if you're too long away from youth to remember being property,
it may be useful for you to understand
that when you say any of these generic Authority-Chants,

...it was appropriate ... to invade your privacy.
She is trying to protect you ...
You should really tell your mom....

they usually translate as "disregard all after ...."

---===oxoXoxo===---

2. Nan - again, good solid advice -
but there are some grace-notes here beside advice
which build one's confidence in the writer:

Lines: 36
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:14:59 -0500

Nan:
I know how upsetting it can be when a parent snoops,
but it sounds like your mom is trying to understand
and perhaps protect you.

klaatu:
note the difference between previous and present writers:

previous writer
lays out authoritarian dogma as if it were fact:
... it was appropriate ... to invade your privacy.


previous writer
expresses opinions about things she can't possibly know,
and expresses them as if they were fact:
She is trying to protect you ....
She loves you in a very essential way.


previous writer
tries to direct, rather than to advise:
You should really tell your mom.

present writer:
offers her opinion as opinion, not as if it were fact:
... it SOUNDS like your mom is trying to understand
and PERHAPS protect you.
(emphasis mine)

aside from this welcome honesty,
the writer makes no attempt to tell Krystle what she Should do.

straight off the mark, her advice gains credibility
in direct proportion to respect shown the seeker.

same with Nikki and Super Eeyo

4. Nikki
Lines: 38
Date: 9 Jan 2004 09:50:48 -0800

... In my opinion the best plan would be....

My mother would have been extremely angry and dissappointmed
*and* an enourmous support
but I have no way of knowing your mom of course.
...
I'd still make an appointment with Planned Parenthood....

... not knowing is worse I think ....

klaatu:
Nikki expresses her opinion clearly labeled as opinion,
without trying to give it more weight than it's logic earns for it,
and without trying to give orders.

that alone would make it worth attention.
when examined, her stuff makes sense,
giving it more worth yet.

5. Super Eeyore
Lines: 27
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 08:34:52 -0800

Short answer: take a test

Long answer:

Living in limbo sucks.
I was ... in the same place as you.
... lived in fear and worry for 7 months.

... parents were upset for about a week. A week!
And I spent 7 months
with only their reaction
and what the heck am I going to do
running in my head 24-7!

Test.
Maybe you aren't and you are all the wiser now.
Or maybe you are and it's time to move on to the next worry.

Test, all the other stuff to freak out over
can wait a few minutes until after the test.

Five minutes of worry while you test vs how long now?
that you've been freaking out? Test!

Really I have aall the love and hugs for you right now!
You are one step ahead of where I was in that situation,
you are reaching out. btdt.

klaatu:
by my criteria this is a really brilliant bit of business.

true, Laurel's giving orders flat-out,
but there's vast difference between Laurel's command
and that of the other writer:

Krystle can't lose any control over the situation by testing;
contrarily,
telling her mother could easily screw up everything.

besides,
SuperEeyore's coming from specific personal experience
perfectly relevant to Krystle's situation,
and she's offering friendly emotional support as well.

Excellent, practical advice, excellent handling -
cheers to you lot !

---===oxoXoxo===---

3. Donna - once again, some very good stuff here;
unfortunately, some details got in the way of the message:

Lines: 90
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:36:59 -0500

Krystle:
... i don't want to tell my mom cuz she'll prolly call the cops
on the dude that probably got me pregnant.

Donna:
Not to be unsympathetic, here, but in the states, in a lot of areas,
sex with a fifteen year old *is* a crime.

klaatu:
yeah?- so what? -
just about every damn thing a kid does for fun is either
illegal, immoral, fattening, "inappropriate-for-your-age"
or (E) all of the above.

such a comment, at best, is irrelevant.

a VERY important part of Krystle's comment was:
"... i don't want to tell my mom " -

it's intended to let the reader know
where the limit falls between Advice and Meddling.

waving "SEX/CRIME" in her face like a flag
doesn't tell her how to improve the situation;
it's not Advice;
it's not what she asked for.
it just adds more stress.

she liked this guy well enough, once -
bashing her over the head with the fact
that she could cause him to be taken to jail
just adds more un-necessary stress to an already bad time.

this goes in the exact opposite direction
from she came to MKS to get.

"Not to be unsympathetic ... but ..."
verges on sarcasm, as if it's leading up to:
' not to be unsympathetic, but I'm unsympathetic '....

Krystle:
she ... went through my backpack ... looked at my journal, and read everything..
... she doesn't respect the fact that ... i need privacy too..
but she's my mom and understand why she did that, but ...

Donna:
As my mom told me growing up,
"If you want privacy, get a job and get your own apartment.
While you're under our roof, you don't get privacy"
I didn't like that much, either, but, like you,
I kind of understood where she was coming from.

klaatu:
i got the same routine from my mom.

it made perfect sense to me
that so long as i lived at her expense i should do as she bid,
IF-AND-ONLY-IF i have the option of leaving her house at will;

otherwise, i am in precisely the same case
as if i had been abducted by some pervert-on-the-street.

without that option, i am effectively locked up against my will
and compelled to do things which truly revolt me,
such as being forced to sit through those tedious damned lectures
which are every bit as repellent as being used for sex unwilling.

i speak from experience; i've had both.

other things being equal, honest perverts are preferable
to phony "love" of dishonest control-freak parents,
if only because pervs get their orgasm and leave you alone,
but control-freaks keep at you all the time;
it's like getting nibbled to death by ducks.

Judeo-Christian prude superstition tries to pretend
that it's endorsement of obsessive meddling
makes it somehow a more noble thing than sex-obsession,
but i find very little difference between the two.

there ARE differences, of course:
most perverts are more honest than most parents,
and control-freaks needn't change sheets as often.

in such context,
"While you're under our roof, you don't get privacy"
justifies nothing whatsoever, but only defines captive-status.

property owes nor loyalty nor obedience to it's owner.

any advisor who begins with the bizarre presumption
that parents have right to do this to children
swings presumption of their advice
from "helpful-unless-proven-otherwise"
to "betrayer-unless-proven-innocent".

this consigns to readers the task of sifting their advice
to see if something useful can be found in that muck.

most folk - particularly stressed-out folk - won't bother.

point:
Advice
involves listing What courses of action are available,
and How to do them;

telling the victim that it's okay for the oppressor to rip them off
is not advice, and is very likely to **** off the reader.

when the "advisor" puts enough of these propaganda-pieces in,
the reader's sense of irritation builds by degrees,
until finally they un-load their feelings in a rush of words
which may not show a clear line of logical steps.

my impression is that this is what happened with Krystle.

so, back to this:

Krystle:
... she doesn't respect the fact that ... i need privacy too..
... she's my mom and understand why she did that, but ...

Donna:
... my mom told me ...
"If you want privacy, get a job and get your own apartment.
While you're under our roof, you don't get privacy"

I didn't like that much, either, but, like you,
I kind of understood where she was coming from.

klaatu:
faced with the same alternative, i ran away,
and i can say from personal experience
that living four years homeless was a MUCH better deal
than letting control-freak adults run my life.

my reading of Krystle's bit
is that this line:
"... she's my mom and understand why she did that, but ... "
indicates that Krystle understands that mothers
do ferociously humiliating and demeaning things
to children in their power all the time;

this does NOT necessarily mean that Krystle accepts the notion
that her mother has a RIGHT do it, or that Krystle considers
that this surveillance is any form of 'love' or 'protection'.

on the other side, Donna's comment suggests to me
that she, (Donna) accepts it as a normal part of the Status Quo,
and that she has perhaps mis-read Krystle's phrase
as being equivalent to her own point of view.

it's possible i'm reading into this too deeply,
but the parallel with my own experience is too striking to miss;

when i ran off, both me and my mates agreed
that we were in effect captives
of a gang composed of Parents and State;

when i saw them four years later, their spirits were crushed;
they had given up, and now believed parents had right to do it,
the usual vacant-eyed chatter typical of brainwash-victims.

that is, they had become typical "institutionalized" inmates
of a System they abhorred four years earlier.

by twelve years old they had caved in under the constant pressure
and begun to "identify with the oppressor"
as abducted people oft do after all hope of escape is gone.

i, on the other side - along with hundreds of mate i met
during four years on the road - felt exactly as i had befo
if parents charge too dear for room-and-board,
one's better off going without.

talking with my (former) mates i sounded much as Krystle does here,
when she says she understands her mother violating her privacy.

i nodded my head pro-forma when they urged me to come back,
they capering with smug satisfaction that their owners
now "let" them stay up till ten, and watch monster-movies.

i DID understand:
they'd got used to wearing leashes.
"Sit up ... good boy! - Now speak ... roll over ... play dead...."

i grieved for them inside but didn't let it show, out of pity;
why rub their faces in the immensity of their degradation?
so i left them planning my surprise return
and have not seen them since.

Krystle said she understands why her mother did it;
Donna seems to interpret that as meaning essentially:

"mom going through my stuff is a drag,
but it's okay - she MEANS well".

i think it's at least as likely to mean that Krystle understands
that her mother's using motherhood status as an excuse
to indulge her personal whim of treating her daughter like a toy,
and accepts the reality that her mother will keep right on with it,
since the State's brainwashed geeks back her up.

i think this mis-apprehension sets the tone for what follows,
with the adults chanting stock phrases from Litany of Status Quo,
not understanding what it sounds like from the other side.

seems they're not really paying attention to what Krystle's saying,
but just waiting for her to say her lines so they can say theirs
and get on with the entertainment of Misc. Kids. Pregnancy
seen from their own perspective.

perhaps emotional anaesthesia of years, and secure legal status
have left most of them incapable of understanding her urgency
in other than schematic terms -

some of the adults seem to be trying to see through her eyes,
but others are clearly just going through the motions;
"phoning it in", rather than actually participating.

Krystle asked Advice, not social commentary or philosophy;

these irrelevant asides are like a stage-show;
like chanting " It's Cause She Loves You" -
the Justification Theme from "Smotherhood For The Beginner".

they cast instant suspicion on everything else from that poster.

considering all the bits of advice as links in a chain,
how safe would you feel relying on a chain with one bad link?

Donna:
Well, here's a reality check for you.
If you're indeed pregnant, you're in a bind,

klaatu:
to me, if this is not sarcasm,
it's close enough to serve until the real thing comes along.

this comment seems so clearly in-appropriate
as to exite suspicion of the writer's motives because

(1)
it only rehearses what's obvious;

(2)
Krystle herself said essentially the same thing coming in;
that is, it's not only obvious to Donna and the reader,
but also to Krystle.

so, harping on it serves nothing;
Donna's basically rubbing Krystle's nose in it,
apparently for her own entertainment.
this does nothing useful.

(3)
it's not ADVICE, which was what Krystle wanted,
and what she asked for,
(and what, at least theoretically) these adults are trying to give.

at best, this writer's indulging herself on Krystle -
giving advice as asked - and good advice, too -
but unable to resist the impulse to charge a toll for it;

dump a little humiliation on the kid, just-for-fun,
or maybe this writer has become so used to doing it
that she no longer even hears derision in it.

Donna:
and you are going to have to make
some very adult, very serious decisions
about where your life is going to go.

klaatu:
considering that Krystle came to this venue
specifically to address that very point, and said so,
what purpose can this comment possibly serve?

again, it's not Advice, it's nagging,
and away out-of-place.

it's main function seems to be role-play
with the writer as Oracle From On High,
talking down to Krystle like a very small child.

i was not the only one to make that connection:
Vicky Bilaniuk, an adult, did too.

Donna:
Evidently you decided to have sex.

klaatu:
EVIDENTLY?
c'mon, guys - what is this garbage ?

among equal human beings of normal intelligence,
a natural reaction to this condescension would be
"No ****, Sherlock - if you can't do any better than that,
don't trouble to advise me; go **** yourself."

among most guys i know, that bit of cuteness
would be ample reason to knock you on your ass.

this is the sort of stunt safest done from well out-of-reach,
and suggests very strongly that the writer is really getting off
on pushing this sky-towering ascendancy.

guessing from what i see in this thread,
if Krystle DID reply thus, you'd give her crap about 'immaturity',
tho such response fits the tone of the comment.

before you go holding the Olympic Dumping Tryouts on Krystle,
charging her with "Immaturity Undecoming to a 15-Year-Old",
i feel morally obliged to point out to you
that i have seen grown men go at each other with razors
for considerably less smart-ass comment than this.

Donna:
And you decided to have sex without using adequate protection.
Now you have to decide whether to have a baby and raise it,
have a baby and give it up for adoption, or abort the pregnancy.

Donna:
These are really serious outcomes
that arose from your original decisions about sex and protection.

klaatu:
it intrigues me that so many in mks profess not to understand
why Krystle reacted as she did,
when her reason seemed so clear to me.

i considered the possibility
that they simply so accustomed to ignoring kids
that they just blanked her out and never got the point,
but then Vicky Bilaniuk posted, and she DID get it -
but mks generally took no hint from her at all.

---===oxoXoxo===---
Lines: 51
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:35:08 -0500

Vicky Bilaniuk:
Krystal ... Unfortunately, a lot of people think
that teenagers are equivalent to six year olds....

klaatu:
agreed.

Vicky:
... It's difficult to behave
in the adult-like manner that you *want* to behave in
when everyone around you is treating you like a child.

klaatu:
got that right.

kinda funny the way the dynamic of such interchange
resembles tape of L.A. cops beating Rodney King:

they smash him to the ground with clubs,
screaming "lay DOWN",

he tries to rise, but they keep clubbing him, raving
"stay DOWN !"

King drops flat,
but you can see that of several cop beating him.
two are clearly enjoying it, and when King lays down,
they keep right on bashing him with the sticks.

each one tries to get in the last blow
before it becomes too obvious that it's an excuse;
that they're really beating him for fun.

but when he's been on the ground a long time
and they keep clubbing him anyway,
he freaks out and tries to escape again,
perhaps thinking they won't stop no matter what he does
so better to take the chance than be beat to death in place.

this, of course gives the cops all they need to go at him more,
guidelines being that they can whale away til he holds still.

this effectively guaranteeing them infinite diversion,
since they can hurt him till he MUST move,
then bash him for moving.

adults use the same technique on kids all the time;

lots of adults - particularly parents -
get so used to it they don't even see what they're doing.

Vicky:
Anyway, if you filter through the ahem motherly advice ;-)
... I think you'll find good advice.
...
The thing is that you really need to find out
if you are pregnant or not (so take that test!),
and then once you know, you'll know what road to take next.
---===oxoXoxo===---

klaatu:
the fact that Vicky Bilaniuk understood this so clearly
while the majority of mks understood it not at all
seems to suggest that a substantion proportion of the group
filters their data through a mental kill-file which allows them
to ignore data from kids.

that's disturbing,
particularly in a group set up ostensibly to support kids.

more disturbing yet to discover that this mental kill-file
allows them to ignore content they don't want to hear
even from adults like AnneMarie and Vicky Bilaniuk -

that is, to ignore stuff they don't want to hear
regardless of where it comes from -
so the majority of mks remained ignorant of Krystle's view
even after Vicky Bilaniuk called attention to it.

i think perhaps readers may sense this at subliminal level,
and that frustration grows in direct ratio
with the amount of "advisor" digression into irrelevant matter
until finally they react as Krystle did
when subtle implicit bias becomes overt censure,
however trivial that censure may appear on the surface.

---===oxoXoxo===---
Vicky Bilaniuk:
Krystal ... Unfortunately, a lot of people think
that teenagers are equivalent to six year olds....

klaatu:
agreed.

Vicky:
... It's difficult to behave
in the adult-like manner that you *want* to behave in
when everyone around you is treating you like a child.

Jamie Clark
Vicky,
Except no one treated her like a 6 year old....
---===oxoXoxo===---

klaatu:
you sound like a neighbor of mine.

he's completely colour-blind,
but insists he can see colours.
pretty convincing too, until one pays close attention.

he can name lots of colours of household things,
but gets a few wrong.

the clue comes when he starts naming colours
on a black-and-white TV.

he's seeing everything as shades of gray,
but when two colours reflect the same amount of light,
they're the same shade of gray to him,
so to him they're the same 'colour',
though he may be pointing at blue and brown side-by-side.

you seem to be in the same case;
unable or unwilling to see what you look like from outside,
so you insist you can't be as others see you.

it's understandable,
and ultimately no more than an irritant,
except in special circumstances.

i know a guy who actually WAS six when a caretaker
gave him such sneering condescension
that he decided instantly to make him regret it some day.

at fifteen he walked right up to him sitting at his picnic table
and smashed him in the face with a mattock-handle.

then he got kissing-close to the victim
and spoke his own words back at him:

"sooner or later you're gonna learn
that your actions have consequences;
your only choice
is how hard ya want to make it for yourself."

i don't know you and have nothing against you,
since nothing either of us do will ever touch the other,
but guy, if you're anywhere near as blind as you act

you'll likely be a lot safer dealing with folks at a safe distance
(like here on the Net)
than within arm-reach.

it may be useful to remember next time you're feeling "snarky"
that when you get arrogant and sarcastic with people
the extremity to which they will go in response
depends on how THEY feel about it,
not on how *you* feel about it.

Donna:
Your mother loves you.

klaatu:
the writer doesn't know anything about that.

pretending she does and stating it as fact
defines a Fiction Writer.

fiction is for people secure enough in real-life
that they can afford to seek amusement in imagination;

Krystle came for ADVICE, not escape-fiction;
nor to hear propaganda replayed on a feed-back-loop.

Donna:
If you are pregnant, you need to tell her, and ask for help.

klaatu:
well, no ... that's not a NEED;
needs are things without which one dies;

everything else goes off in scale of relative urgency
depending on how much you WANT them.

you appear to be using the phrase "need to"
where "Should" or "Must" would fit your intent better.

either of these more accurate terms
would however make it impossible to ignore
that you are in effect commanding her to do your will.

presumably, this is based on your personal conviction
that home and motherhood are axiomatically the Best Thing.

it's not what Krystle asked you for tho,
and it's not what you said you'd give.

seems more likely only Krystle knows what Krystle needs,
(or Should do, or Must do)
because only she can guess
whether her mother will give her so much trouble
that telling her is more hassle than it's worth.

telling her what to do is not Advice, but Manipulation;
Krystle didn't ask for anyone to make decision for her.

soon or late you must make a choice -
either consciously, or by default, if you refuse to pay attention -

whether you want to actually practice care and sensitivity,
or only portray these qualities
as a cultural artifact, or display;

as a series of ritual motions and chanted set-phrases
done to simulate people who truly care
about practicing the purpose advertised for mks.

impression i got from misc.kids.pregnancy
is that most *do* care - at least a little bit -
but most have been isolated from real emergency
long enough that they have to make a purposive effort
to 'get in character' for the job.

some don't quite make it, and go playing Sage and Oracle
with dilettante nonchalance -
and insufficient attention to get it right.

Donna:
If you aren't pregnant,
you still need to tell her that your periods have stopped.

klaatu:
again, no - for the same reasons.

Donna:
Yes, she may be disappointed in you.
Yes, she may be angry. Yes, she may have your boyfriend arrested,
if indeed he committed the crime of statutory rape.

klaatu:
i was in some porno-films when i was about nine.

regardless of whether "citizen"-types consider that crime,
the point is moot;

the family i was with at the time were more trust-worthy,
more supportive of MY decisions to better my lot in life,
and more willing to help me acheive them,
and in general better human beings
than parents in most of the 14 foster-homes i've been in.

in my personal experience
the most steadfast and reliable friends i've had in my life
have been people adults warned me never to go near -

including a guy who did 12 years in San Quentin for manslaughter,
who (at my request) took me out of a foster-home
where pillar-of-the-community Authorized Foster Parents
were making life hell for me, and CPS refused to hear me at all.

several other flat-out criminals helped me more and better
than any minion of the System ever did.

so, when you say:

...Yes, she may have your ... friend arrested,
if indeed he committed ... crime ....

you place yourself beyond serious consideration
as an advisor or anything else.

what Outsiders call "criminal " or "honourable"
doesn't matter.

Krystle may have feelings for this boy
such that even if they no longer want to be together
she would not see him thrown into the Machine.

if so, your attempted command
in telling her that she "needs" to tell her mother
merely adds more stress.

this bit suffers from the same defects as befo

(1) it is not Advice, as requested, but Command, and

(2)
dumping his life in her mother's unstable hands
is like handing him over to an amateur surgeon.

while you're nattering on about "taking responsibility"
note that you're ordering her to ruin a human life -
moreover,
one with whom she's been emotionally involved.

this stunt seems an attempt
to manipulate this girl into acting as your proxy
to further your own anti-sex agendum.

that is, it's a form of manipulation at least as cynical
as some-one taking sexual advantage of a child,
the most meaningful difference being that with sex
at least one can get an orgasm out of it;

wrecking the guy's life just to make brownie-points with prudes
sounds like an exercise in futility.

it also has the added disadvantage of making an enemy
where one might have a friend,
and one at that who's able and willing to do stuff for her
which Mom can't, or won't.

Donna:
But she's your mother, and ultimately, she is going to help you.
She loves you.

snicker

just being a mother means nothing at all;
it doesn't mean she's competent,
it doesn't mean she's interested,
and many of them do more real atrocity in name of "love"
than any other phony excuse.

this is not Advice, but Propaganda, or at best, superstition;
pushing it seriously undermines credibility.

Donna:
... keep in mind that this doesn't make you a bad person.
An unlucky one, maybe. A careless one, definitely....

klaatu:
from the generally up-beat and supportive nature of context
i get the impression you intended this as just a side-comment,
of no particular importance.

i saw it quite differently:
the girl's already stressed out;
you're calling her careless.

that's inaccurate, or potentially so, right off the top;
many people do this sort of thing by caring very deeply -
it's just that they have different cares,
different ideas of what's important.

for instance, know a guy who, after a birthday-party,
found out he'd laid his gf without protection -
she'd run out of foam, and took the chance knowingly
rather than mar his celebration with delay.

you may say she was 'irresponsible' or 'careless'
but dissembling so is vacuous;

she was VERY responsible; VERY caring -
she felt her care for, and responsibility her mate
out-weighed other factors, that's all.

i can see you meant no insult calling Krystle careless,
but it startled me that you didn't see how it'd likely be taken.

whatever else it might be, it sure as hell isn't advice,
just another tiny needle-stab among many greater ones;

the point is, it accomplished nothing useful;
it didn't need to be done.

spent tense time untangling a dog from barbed-wire;
wide-eyed and panting, scared and in pain,
she knew i was trying to help; she licked my hand -
but when steel barbs dug into her she tried to bite me.

i dodged her snapping jaws, but didn't beat her for it;
she was under extreme duress, not fully in her own control -
it would have been as cruel and senseless
as beating a frightened, beleagured child....

seems you big-time adults could have cut the girl some slack.

a couple of your number did:

---===oxoXoxo===---

3. AnneMarie - (many thanks, wonderful lady).

Lines: 30
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 19:00:26 -0700

... can also remember when i was 15,
i would take great offense to someone saying that i was careless.

I just want us to remember that even though she seems mature
she still is a 15 year old girl....
She's not going to take everything the same way we would...

Just putting my 2 cents in.....don't mean to offended *anyone*

klaatu:
so, AnneMarie caught it straightaway,
where the rest of this lot seems to have missed it completely.

i thought Krystle was quite clear from the start;
she sought ADVICE, not more -
and her reply to AnneMarie re-inforces it:

Krystle N:
thank you ann...i just wanted to let donna know that i'm not careless
and what everyone else said about me was pretty rude...

all i wanted was some help..
she didn't have to call me the things she did..
---===oxoXoxo===---

klaatu:
that's when Vicky Bilaniuk made her extremely cogent post:

---===oxoXoxo===---
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:35:08 -0500
Lines: 51

Krystal, just ignore the mothering stuff
that you've drawn out of some people, here.
...
Unfortunately, a lot of people think that teenagers
are equivalent to six year olds,
...
It's difficult to behave
in the adult-like manner that you *want* to behave in
when everyone around you is treating you like a child.

Anyway, if you filter through the ahem motherly advice ;-)
in the responses made to you,
I think you'll find good advice.

The thing is that you really need to find out
if you are pregnant or not (so take that test!),
and then once you know, you'll know what road to take next.
...
Good luck!

klaatu:
EXCELLENCE, Madame Bilaniuk -
may thy tribe increase !

one thing which puzzles me about this thread
is how many adults missed these points,
which seemed to me so clear as to be unmistakable.

most of the group dropped on Krystle en masse,
accusing her of ingratitude, immaturity, et cetera
without bothering to consider how their stuff sounded;
how it grated; how it could prompt her to respond so.

they seem to expect her to take their words
in the context familiar to them, but without considering
that their accustomed context took time to create -
Krystle's got no way to know that code,
and it seem unfair as hell to drop on her for not knowing.

most of those guys have known each other a long time,
and they haven't had to worry about getting arrested for sex
in so long they've got no sense of urgency left.

they've not been Really humiliated in so long
that they've lost track of what it feels like;

they've heard certain stock phrases so long and often
that those words have lost ability to stir emotion,
and have only paradigmatic significance,
like non-sense words in nursery-rhymes,
thrown in to balance verses.

however,
for newbies to these insular venues,
who still truly pay attention to what's being said,
these words have fangs and claws.

when you draw blood, and she reacts in kind,
it's no use ragging her for not knowing your code;
it's YOUR turf; it's YOUR crowd -
it's on you keep a perspective on yourselves.

that is, UNLESS the whole help-and-advice thing is fake.

if it's just a sort of bait to kids in need,
to lure them into a sort of Public Punishment Ceremony
and make excuses to rake them over the coals,
that's another thing entirely.

AnneMarie's a puzzle;
she's an adult; she's from your group;
she saw the same thing we did, in the same perspective -

yet the largest proportion of misc.kids.pregnancy
carries on not only as if they paid no real attention
to what Krystle trying to say,
but as if they ignored AnneMarie, one of their own, as well.

---===oxoXoxo===---
Lines: 40
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:04:39 GMT

Jamie Clark:
Krystal,
No one said anything rude or anything
that you be construed as putting you down.

klaatu:
Jamie, you're stuffed as full of crap as a Christmas goose.

tangent:
you've made point that KrystleN might be a troll;
anything's possible, but i don't think it matters.

the thread's on record now, and now or later it will be of use
to some girl who thinks she might be pregnant.

for me, it's use consists in the watching the transfer of ideas,
as diagnostic of misc.kids.pregnancy.

Vicky Bilaniuk:
Krystal is being very sensitive, and I can completely understand why.
...
The way to talk to someone who is sensitive like this
is to *not* try to tell them anything about their behaviour.
They already know, and don't need to be told.

They would not be asking for help if they didn't already know
that they had made a mistake somewhere.

My 2 cents.
---===oxoXoxo===---

klaatu:
BRAVA !
my sincere and heartfelt thanks to you and AnneMarie
on behalf of us Invisibles.

klaatu:
Jamie, you're stuffed as full of crap as a Christmas goose.

Thanks. Takes one to know one. All I can say after reading your whole
babbling diatribe is: Oh Please, give me a break, and you have WAY too much
time on your hands.

Contrary to what you seem to have experienced, children don't raise
themselves (at least not well, as you are proof), they do need parents, and
parents are not inherently evil. Doi.

I'm sorry for all that you've experienced. It sounds like you've led a
tough life, though no fault of your own, and are just trying to survive. I
hope you can someday make it out of survival mode, and into enjoying life.
--

Jamie & Taylor
Earth Angel, 1/3/03

Check out Taylor Marlys -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clark_guest,
Password: Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password

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"klaatu" wrote in message
...

Snipped for brevity

Jamie Clark:
Contrary to what you seem to have experienced,
children don't raise themselves
(at least not well, as you are proof),

klaatu:
my experience says far more kids DO raise themselves
than most folk realize.

as for whether we raise ourselves well or otherwise,
that's a matter of opinion.

quite happy with how life turned out;
no complaints, and few regrets.

if satisfaction's any index of success
i've raised my child (myself) quite well.

my friends think so too, but of course we're biased -
all my friends have raised themselves as well,
or wished they had.


at any given time there are supposedly
about two million runaway kids loose in the U.S.

don't know how reliable those statistics are,
but they should be pretty close, since they derive
from police and FBI, who go from original families,
with straight paperwork on the kids.

according to official statistics,
the overwhelming majority of those kids
come from good stable homes of middle-class or above.
this fits well with my own experience.

during a tad more than four years homeless
i got as far north as Toronto, as far south as MacAllen, Texas,
and ricocheted through 37 of the 50 states.

during that time, met hundreds of runaways,
most of which, like myself came from homes
which fit the American Ideal well.

that is, there was nothing intrinsically *wrong* with those homes;
caring, intelligent, educated parents with stable homes and jobs -
just too blasted intrusive, too controlling, too over-protective.

whether we were wise or foolish to run away is a matter of opinion;
whether we live well or ill is also a matter of opinion,
but it is a FACT that chose it of our own will.

it's also a fact that many kids make that choice *repeatedly* -
we "chronic runaways".


once kids are off home-territory they drop into limbo;
most statistics on missing children are virtually worthless.

obviously, kids traveling alone are going to get rousted by cops.
runaways soon learn to give phony names to all officials.

while they're trying to find parents you can usually run off,
but even if you can't, it's no problem;
you just wait till they put you in foster-care, and split.
leaving them to chase a ghost.

i, myself count as around fifty missing kids.

that is, fifty times i've had the option
of living in my own room with my own radio,
and mountains of clothes, and stacks of books

or living in a refrigerator-crate, wearing all i own,
drinking rain-water, grubbing dumpsters, eating cats.

but the middle-class house comes with a middle-class geek
who thinks it his business to tell me how to keep ' my ' room;
who feels compelled to tell me what music i should like;
who thinks he's got right to say what clothes i wear;
who imagines he knows what books are appropriate for me -

so fifty times i left them, and i've been fifty times glad

that is,
i'm fifty times more certain what i want out of life
than kids raised to think that they're not competent
to make their own life-choices.

Jamie Clark:
they do need parents,

klaatu:
no, actually "they" don't.

what one NEEDS is what one dies without;
all else is luxury of varied degree.

houses, parents, hot running water are Conveniences,
not Necessities.

child-owners try to brainwash their property
that they can't survive without parental guidance,
but that's a shuck -
i know for a fact that at least one average eight-year-old
can live outside alone through Minnesota winter,
(if only from not knowing to go south, it being his first escape).

nobody Needs parents - they're good to have as *partners*,
so long as they don't go putting on airs about "their" kids,
or start believing they have right to tell kids what to do.
when they do that they're more trouble than they're worth.

Jamie Clark:
and parents are not inherently evil. Doi.

klaatu:
agreed.
i don't blame parents; the Blame Game is stupid.

parents as a class tend to be opportunistic as hell,
but that's not a matter for blame; it's a natural thing.

of all animals, humans are least fitted to survive
by physical prowess alone:

weak-eyed, nearly deaf, no claws, trifling teeth;
world-champ Olympic runners can't out-pace a dog,
best human jumpers look silly beside any common cat;

seems supremely fitting for humans to succeed by craft,
since Nature's made us so unfit in all those other arts.

some ancient opportunist noticed children are programmable;
the chief distinctions of Judeo-Christian creed from contemporaries
are "obey your parents" and "keep the Sabbath".

until then,
presumably only natural affection bound parents to kids;
kids would love and care for parents who treated them well,
just as monkeys or elephants living wild do for theirs;

un-caring parents no doubt died alone when age overtook them,
and they could no longer function without help -
Nature's way of making things balance.

as in many other ways, human cleverness outsmarts itself;
people ' improve ' on Nature to make things convenient,
and end with a product dangerous to it's inventor;

sugar-cane's sweet, but not enough to rot your teeth;
happens quick when sugar's concentrated fifty-fold though;

there's not enough lead or asbestos found in natural state
to trouble anyone but by most unlikely mis-chance -
But high-class Romans drank their wine from leaden goblets
because it was so convenient to cast ....

as it happens, lead tweaks nerve-tissue very efficiently,
and mixes with alcohol better than just about anything else,
so in a weird sort of poetic justice the biggest human empire
was ruled by people who got crazier by leaps and bounds.

the credos of those ancient opportunists,
(1) "obey your parents" and (2) "keep the Sabbath"
translate in practice to:

(1)
"brainwash your children from birth that they MUST obey you"
(even if you're a vicious idiot and do nothing useful), and

(2)
"do it at least once a week - the more the better -
or God will get ****ed and do bad things to you."

that is, your bit about children needing parents
is fiction used as justification for exploitation
of credulous Youth by devious Age -
the first known Comprehensive Retirement Plan.

by it each generation of power-greedy old incompetents
adds yet more obligations for it's rising youth to carry,
and demands yet more total "respect" and obedience
to a tradition which began and remains a monstrous scam.

Jamie Clark:
I'm sorry for all that you've experienced.

klaatu:
no need.

Jamie Clark:
It sounds like you've led a tough life,

klaatu:
i've never had truly hard times,
though i've got close enough to be thankful for my luck.

Jamie Clark:
It sounds like you've led a tough life,
though no fault of your own and are just trying to survive.

klaatu:
well ... actually, it WAS my fault, if it's a "fault" at all.

most of the important changes in my life
are results of my own choices - i've no complaint to any.

i could have stayed home,
done what i was told to do, and thought what i was told to think
and got by quite well.

did things my own way because that's what felt right to me,
still do things my own way; still feels right to me.
am happier than most folk i know.

thanks for the sentiment, anyway.

Jamie Clark:
I hope you can someday make it out of survival mode,
and into enjoying life.

klaatu:
made it out some time ago; enjoying life immensely.

the State has unjust laws
which do not allow young people to have jobs or independence
until they can furnish certificates (school-diplomas)
to prove that they have already gone through years of brainwashing.

however, i managed to short-circuit that process.

my last real schooling was third grade, after which i ran off.
just as well - school was interfering with my education.

hung out in libraries a good bit tho, when i could.
did lots of reading during time in a boys-home,
scoring extra goodies by doing others' home-work -
to include homework of our collegiate counselors.

seemed clear to me this System's choking on it's own corruption,
so never seriously considered playing by it's rules;
did all sorts of illegal stuff, saved, and bought a house for cash.

my own house - at sixteen,
tho couldn't get clear paper on it till i came of legal age.

it's a junker, of course;
in an un-incorporated hick-town
with low prices and small property-taxes,
but getting better bit-by-bit
and every stick of it's *mine*.

when i enlisted in the Army they wanted a high-school diploma;
forged one, and took the ASVAB and other tests.

scored at second-year college level so no-one checked my diploma.
did well in service -
no trouble with authority as you might expect -
went there by MY choice, for my own purpose.

now, things are going good and getting better yet.
been enjoying life long enough to get smug about it,
but one thing i learnt long before Ranger School
was NEVER to get too far out of survival-mode;
it's just not safe.

mine is a success-story,
and i get much pleasure from cheering young folk on,
particularly those
struggling to get the clammy hand of age off their necks.

nobody ever made better decisions about my life than me,
and i started over-ruling adult meddlers at eight years old.

Jamie Clark:
All I can say after reading your whole babbling diatribe is:
Oh Please, give me a break,

klaatu:
hands you a break

here ya go - you can use it to fill the logical vacuum
in your objection to kid's right to live their own lives.

Jamie Clark:
and you have WAY too much time on your hands.

klaatu:
yah well, it comes with the territory -
i'm living the life of a retired gentleman:

working when it suits me, and for whom i please; living rent-free;
pottering about the house and improving it gradatim;
writing babbling diatribes when the mood takes me . . .
just like a feisty old grandfather.

lemme tell ya, sonny - it's a wonderful thing
to enter your second childhood before leaving your first one;
the trick is learning to ignore adults and think for yourself.

BIG grin