differing parenting style issue

In article ,
"toypup" wrote:

"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
...
But the doctor, talking to me afterwards, said it like this: A kid
rarely has a dislocation from falling of a tree, riding a bike or
whatever. A dislocation is caused by being dragged or swung by a
limb. While it can be accidental, it rarely is.

Oh, puleez. It is fairly easy to do for some children. DS has dislocated
his elbow three times. The first time, I did not drag him or swing him, we
were holding hands jumping up and down. The second time, SIL's then fiance
was playing with him and pulled both his hands up. I was there, the
movement was not a harsh or jerking one. It was quite gentle. He was not
being swung. The third time, he was climbing out of the car and dislocated
it himself. No one was touching him, he did not fall and grab with a
jerking motion, he was just getting out of the car, grabbing my shirt and it
happened. My coworker's child had the same problem. Her ped said for some
children, it's just easy to do. That ER doc was just not a ped.



I'm assuming by "accidental" Barbara meant "as the result of an
accident" as opposed to something that accidentally happened while
playing.

It has been my experience that the kids I've known with dislocations
have NOT been the result of abuse -- they have been accidental in the
sense of not on purpose or the result of abuse, but they HAVE happened
while a child was being swung or lifted by the arms flinging themselves
to the ground while an adult was holding their hand.

They have NOT been from falling or being in a bike accident otherwise
from that sort of accident.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:28:32 -0700, "Circe" wrote:

It does make me wonder, though, why monkey bars and doing pull-ups are
considered okay for kids? Admittedly, older children are doing the monkey
bars and pull-ups, but I'm failing to grasp the essential difference between
being picked up by the hands and suspending your own weight from your hands.

I suspect it has to do with the child controlling the motion and
direction of such swings. It is also unlikely that a child will do
this until s/he is at least four and more likely 5. Note that it can
cause dislocations if a child misses and hangs by one
arm instead of two or twists the wrong way.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

In article 99T_a.42$Qy4.1@fed1read05, "Circe"
wrote:

"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
...
On 13 Aug 2003 20:31:40 -0700, (Cathy Weeks)
wrote:
toto wrote in message
. ..

Prevention of nursemaid's elbow:

* Avoid pulling or swinging your child by the arms or hands.
* Avoid lifting your child up by his/her arms or hands.

Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is walking
between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3, Wheeee!!!! and
swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often pulls up her feet
and dangles between us when she wants us to do it. So are you saying
we shouldn't play this game?

I would say you should not play this game. Fun or no. It weakens the
child and can cause injury.

It does make me wonder, though, why monkey bars and doing pull-ups are
considered okay for kids? Admittedly, older children are doing the monkey
bars and pull-ups, but I'm failing to grasp the essential difference between
being picked up by the hands and suspending your own weight from your hands.

I'm past the age (and weight) of doing any of these things, but as I
think about the relative passivity of being swing by someone else vs.
the active engagement of climbing on monkey bars or doing chin ups, it
FEELS like I use the muscles differently, and may use the muscles around
my shoulder in a way that makes damage less likely. Might this mean
that if a child is holding OUR hands and lifts their feet (as opposed to
us lifting them while holding their wrists or hands) they are in less
danger of injury?

How frequent are dislocations among gymnists or trapese artists who do
the more dramatic swinging, and even catching?

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:35:22 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

How frequent are dislocations among gymnists or trapese artists who do
the more dramatic swinging, and even catching?

meh

http://www.stoneclinic.com/injuries.htm

Two other common injuries that we see in our facility are
separated and dislocated shoulders. A separated shoulder
is typically done by falling or getting hit on the apex of the
shoulder, tearing the ligament that holds the clavicle
(collarbone) to the acromion. As with any sprain, there
are varying degrees of tears. The level of dysfunction is
directly related to the degree of tear, which means that the
more disability following the injury typically means it is
more severly injured.

Shoulder dislocations, on the other hand, is when the ball
comes out of the socket joint. This is followed by immediate
disability and usually some attempt to relocate it by
themselves. This injury should be promptly seen by a
physician. Proper reduction of the dislocation is imperitive
so that no further injury to the surrounding tissue, nerves,
and blood supply occurs. The shoulder is typically protected
in a sling for 1 - 2 weeks following injury. During this time,
wrist, forearm, and elbow exercises are performed and
gentle range of motion exercises of the shoulder are
prescribed to decrease stiffness.

http://www.sportsmedicinedoctors.com..._anterior3.htm

There are numerous factors that should be taken into
account when deciding on the treatment for an athlete
with a first time traumatic anterior shoulder dislocation.
Factors that are associated with a higher recurrence rate
include ages less than twenty-five and participation in contact
sports. Also, each athlete's specific sport warrants
consideration. For example, wrestlers and gymnasts tend
to have a high recurrence rate because of the demand that
is put on their shoulders. The throwing athlete with a
dislocation in their dominant arm is extremely likely to have
recurrent problems. These particular athletes may be good
candidates for a surgical treatment initially. Other indications
for surgery include recurrent anterior shoulder dislocations
or subluxations despite an adequate physical therapy
protocol.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

"Circe" wrote in news:99T_a.42$Qy4.1@fed1read05:

"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
...
On 13 Aug 2003 20:31:40 -0700, (Cathy
Weeks) wrote:
toto wrote in message
. ..

Prevention of nursemaid's elbow:

* Avoid pulling or swinging your child by the arms or hands.
* Avoid lifting your child up by his/her arms or hands.

Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is
walking between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3,
Wheeee!!!! and swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often
pulls up her feet and dangles between us when she wants us to do it.
So are you saying we shouldn't play this game?

I would say you should not play this game. Fun or no. It weakens
the child and can cause injury.

It does make me wonder, though, why monkey bars and doing pull-ups are
considered okay for kids? Admittedly, older children are doing the
monkey bars and pull-ups, but I'm failing to grasp the essential
difference between being picked up by the hands and suspending your
own weight from your hands. --

define older children g my just turned 3 has been been doing monkey
bars & hanging by his hands for just about a year now. when we do that 1
2 3 swing thing, he's holding our fingers. we aren't holding his hands. i
have my thumb on the back of his hand to stabilize, but if he let go,
he'd fall. is *that* going to hurt his elbows or shoulders? (of course,
falling would hurt, i mean swinging like that)
lee thinking maybe i shouldn't teach him 'skin the cat' out of the tree
yet
--
It is paradoxical that many educators and parents still differentiate
between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing the vital
connection between them. -Leo Buscaglia, author (1924-1998)

x-no-archive:yes
dragonlady wrote:

In article 99T_a.42$Qy4.1@fed1read05, "Circe"
wrote:

"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
...
On 13 Aug 2003 20:31:40 -0700, (Cathy Weeks)
wrote:
toto wrote in message
. ..

Prevention of nursemaid's elbow:

* Avoid pulling or swinging your child by the arms or hands.
* Avoid lifting your child up by his/her arms or hands.

Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is walking
between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3, Wheeee!!!! and
swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often pulls up her feet
and dangles between us when she wants us to do it. So are you saying
we shouldn't play this game?

I would say you should not play this game. Fun or no. It weakens the
child and can cause injury.

It does make me wonder, though, why monkey bars and doing pull-ups are
considered okay for kids? Admittedly, older children are doing the monkey
bars and pull-ups, but I'm failing to grasp the essential difference between
being picked up by the hands and suspending your own weight from your hands.

I'm past the age (and weight) of doing any of these things, but as I
think about the relative passivity of being swing by someone else vs.
the active engagement of climbing on monkey bars or doing chin ups, it
FEELS like I use the muscles differently, and may use the muscles around
my shoulder in a way that makes damage less likely. Might this mean
that if a child is holding OUR hands and lifts their feet (as opposed to
us lifting them while holding their wrists or hands) they are in less
danger of injury?

How frequent are dislocations among gymnists or trapese artists who do
the more dramatic swinging, and even catching?

My dh popped his shoulder out by falling down the companionway on the
boat, and popped it back in himself. He did it again when he tripped
- when we were docking, a grandson grabbed the control lever of the
engine and pushed to forward and he was trying to get to the lever to
pull it back into neutral so we wouldn't crash into the dock. I think
it was only partly out that time as it went back when he raised his
arms. He had previously broken the head of the humerus in a fall, but
I don't know if it is the same shoulder or now.

A friend's daughter in a fall from a horse broke the head of the
humerus and the ER doc without an x-ray assumed it was dislocated and
tried to pop it back with extremely disastrous results.

Having said that, I think that athletic injuries to the shoulder are
in a different category than injuries to a pre-school child. And
while care should be taken, there are just times when accidents
happen.

IOW, if something happens like a child suddenly pitches out of a
parent's arms and the parent grabs an arm in an attempt to stop the
fall and in the process dislocates the shoulder, it doesn't mean that
the parent has abused the child. And I don't think we need to
restrict a child's using monkey bars for fear of shoulder injury.

I think the 1,2,3 whee thing, the child is given some notice and is
held by both hands. IMHO that would be less likely to cause injury
than a surprise move of being suspended by one arm where the child is
struggling to get away.


grandma Rosalie

"dragonlady" wrote:

It does make me wonder, though, why monkey bars and doing pull-ups are
considered okay for kids? Admittedly, older children are doing the
monkey
bars and pull-ups, but I'm failing to grasp the essential difference
between
being picked up by the hands and suspending your own weight from your
hands.

I'm past the age (and weight) of doing any of these things, but as I
think about the relative passivity of being swing by someone else vs.
the active engagement of climbing on monkey bars or doing chin ups, it
FEELS like I use the muscles differently, and may use the muscles around
my shoulder in a way that makes damage less likely. Might this mean
that if a child is holding OUR hands and lifts their feet (as opposed to
us lifting them while holding their wrists or hands) they are in less
danger of injury?

This is something that I can feel -- less pressure on her arms when she
does this as opposed to, for example, accidentally picking her up by the
arms and, if she's pulling in another direction, the strain that it put on
her arms.



P.
Tierney

llama mama wrote:
"Circe" wrote in news:99T_a.42$Qy4.1@fed1read05:

"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
...
On 13 Aug 2003 20:31:40 -0700, (Cathy
Weeks) wrote:
toto wrote in message
. ..

Prevention of nursemaid's elbow:

* Avoid pulling or swinging your child by the arms or hands.
* Avoid lifting your child up by his/her arms or hands.

Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is
walking between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3,
Wheeee!!!! and swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often
pulls up her feet and dangles between us when she wants us to do
it. So are you saying we shouldn't play this game?

I would say you should not play this game. Fun or no. It weakens
the child and can cause injury.

It does make me wonder, though, why monkey bars and doing pull-ups
are considered okay for kids? Admittedly, older children are doing
the monkey bars and pull-ups, but I'm failing to grasp the essential
difference between being picked up by the hands and suspending your
own weight from your hands. --

define older children g my just turned 3 has been been doing monkey
bars & hanging by his hands for just about a year now. when we do
that 1 2 3 swing thing, he's holding our fingers. we aren't holding
his hands. i have my thumb on the back of his hand to stabilize, but
if he let go, he'd fall. is *that* going to hurt his elbows or
shoulders? (of course, falling would hurt, i mean swinging like that)
lee thinking maybe i shouldn't teach him 'skin the cat' out of the
tree yet

Arg, Luke is such a climber and on a number of occasions I've seen him
dangling from something when the climb went...unexpectedly :-) I don't do
the swinging thing but he is forever hanging from my hand. We'll be
standing there holding hands and he'll suddenly let his legs go limp, or
swing out towards the floor. I won't let him go on the hard floor so he
ends up hanging from his arm or making a triangle between his feet/head/our
hands. He is giving me gray hair ;-)


--
Nikki
Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2)

"Circe" wrote in message news:99T_a.42$Qy4.1@fed1read05...
"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
...
On 13 Aug 2003 20:31:40 -0700, (Cathy Weeks)
wrote:
toto wrote in message
. ..

Prevention of nursemaid's elbow:

* Avoid pulling or swinging your child by the arms or hands.
* Avoid lifting your child up by his/her arms or hands.

Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is walking
between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3, Wheeee!!!! and
swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often pulls up her feet
and dangles between us when she wants us to do it. So are you saying
we shouldn't play this game?

I would say you should not play this game. Fun or no. It weakens the
child and can cause injury.

It does make me wonder, though, why monkey bars and doing pull-ups are
considered okay for kids? Admittedly, older children are doing the monkey
bars and pull-ups, but I'm failing to grasp the essential difference between
being picked up by the hands and suspending your own weight from your hands.
--


As I understand it, the difference is twofold. First, it is
specifically younger kids with the weak ligaments. They grow stronger
over time, though I do not know approximately when. Second, a bigger
person such as a parent, is more likely to jerk in a shapr motion
where a child under her own strength is more likely to increase force
more dramatically.




Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [17mo] mom)
"Nobody died when Clinton lied." -- freeway sign

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"They walk with an unsteady, shambling gate." -- Article in the San Diego
Union Tribune

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

"Circe" wrote in message news:99T_a.42$Qy4.1@fed1read05...
"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
...
On 13 Aug 2003 20:31:40 -0700, (Cathy Weeks)
wrote:
toto wrote in message
. ..

Prevention of nursemaid's elbow:

* Avoid pulling or swinging your child by the arms or hands.
* Avoid lifting your child up by his/her arms or hands.

Hmmmm... we just taught Kivi 1-2-3 Wheeee! Where the child is walking
between both parents holding hands, and you say, 1-2-3, Wheeee!!!! and
swing the child forward. Kivi loves it, and often pulls up her feet
and dangles between us when she wants us to do it. So are you saying
we shouldn't play this game?

I would say you should not play this game. Fun or no. It weakens the
child and can cause injury.

It does make me wonder, though, why monkey bars and doing pull-ups are
considered okay for kids? Admittedly, older children are doing the monkey
bars and pull-ups, but I'm failing to grasp the essential difference between
being picked up by the hands and suspending your own weight from your hands.

I also wonder how common is nursemaid's elbow in young children? I
mean, if one or two kids in a 1000 get it, that's significant from a
larger population standpoint, but does it make sense to give up
something fun, likely to be harmless, for a 1 in a 1000 possibility
that it could cause injury?

I'd been swinging Kivi by the arms around in a circle, and I've
decided that I'll hold her by the armpits/around the chest instead.
But the occasional 1-2-3 wheeee...I'm still thinking about that one.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01