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Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?



 
 
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  #51  
Old October 26th 03, 05:28 PM
toto
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Default Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:22:42 -0500, "Sue"
wrote:

Ericka Kammerer wrote in message
We have a similar program (center based GT program)


What does GT stand for?


Gifted and talented


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #52  
Old October 26th 03, 05:37 PM
Ericka Kammerer
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Default Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?

Banty wrote:


This is one of the reasons why I have mixed feelings about tracking.

I had the experience of moving from one state to another, but actually having
must of my cohort move with me. When I ws in junior high, my father's SAC
squadron was transferred from Texas to New Hampshire, and many of the kids I
knew transferred into the Portsmouth, NH school district with me.

Texas didnt' track, New Hampshire did; we were all tested, and I was put on the
math/science accelerated track. The social pressure was definitely on to not
socialize with kids on lower tracks. Local kids hadn't socialized with them for
some time, but for the Air Force kids it came as something of a shock.



Hmm...I can certainly see this as an issue, but I have
to ask how many elementary school kids socialize much outside
their classroom anyway? After a few years, obviously you have
friends in other classes in the same grade, but in my experience
it seems like socialization follows along classroom lines
regardless of the program kids are or aren't in. At our
elementary school, the *only* opportunity for socializing
outside one's class is at recess, and that's not a whole lot
of time to meet other kids and establish a relationship.
At lunch they're required to sit with their class (just the
way they manage the cafeteria). Classes and grades mingle
at other times, like assemblies and such, but obviously
those aren't time for socializing. Band and orchestra
are another opportunity in the later grades, but we haven't
gotten there yet.
There are, of course, opportunities outside the
classroom, like clubs and teams and such. At our school,
those are open to everyone (GT center kids and community
school kids) and kids do socialize there to some extent.
Still, my kids' friends are generally either kids that
are in their classroom or kids that live in our neighborhood.
My oldest started the center based GT program this
year (3rd grade). He was lucky in that he didn't have to
switch schools because his community school happens to be
the nearest school with the GT center, but most of the
kids in his class did come from other schools. It is
certainly an adjustment for them, but most seem to be
integrating well (the school counselors do a lot of work
making sure they make the adjustment well). Obviously,
they have a bit of a challenge meeting kids outside
their class, but many are involved in clubs and get to
interact with other kids that way.
There's certainly a downside to segregating kids
this way, but there are also downsides to mainstreaming
GT kids as well. I guess I like the system here. For
the kids gifted enough to be in the center based program
(there's also a school based enrichment GT program for
kids with needs that can be met within the context of a
mainstream program), they are pulled out into a separate
program with basically no mainstreaming for 3rd-6th grade.
In jr. high (7th-8th grade) they are in a separate program
for their core academics, but are mainstreamed for non-
academic and elective courses (PE, band, drama, art,
foreign languages, etc.). In high school (9th-12th)
they choose their own classes at their own level,
perhaps taking AP (advanced placement) or IB (international
baccalaureate) classes as they please on a class by
class basis along with everyone else. I think this
system provides the center based program when they
most need to focus on learning how to handle their
particular situation with teachers who are experienced
with the issues of gifted kids, but then they are
gradually mainstreamed so that they can learn how to
continue to learn and perform at their level in a
wider context. Seems a reasonable compromise to me.


Another thing they which was well-intentioned but just added to the accelerated
kids' feelings of superiority is that they put us with the special education
kids (including some retarded adults) for home ec and shop. (This was back when
girls all took home ec and boys all took shop and never the twain did meet, but
anyhow..) This was supposed to teach us patience, understanding, and humility,
but it just came off as we're not only the smartest, but we're the only ones who
are socially sensititve enough to work with the special ed kids.



Yes, this totally sounds like a plan doomed to
failure. I'm not against sensible mainstreaming and I
am wary of the problems with tracking and I understand
the benefits of mainstreaming when done well, but all in
all I like the system they have here.

Best wishes,
Ericka

  #53  
Old October 26th 03, 05:42 PM
Rosalie B.
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Posts: n/a
Default Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?

x-no-archive:yes
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Sue wrote:

I don't have a very high opinion of the brighter kids. It's not that I don't
think they are or that they deserve a different teaching method and I
understand that they do exist, but at our school they are segregated into
one part of the school, they don't socialize with the other kids, they don't
participate in any of the school functions and they are made to feel that
they are superior. Even the name of the program is insulting to the other
kids. It is called the Talented and Gifted program. Well imo, every child
that attends that school is talented and gifted in some way. And I don't
know why it is, but they are usually the worst behaved kids. This is just
biased in my district and perhaps other districts handle it differently.


G&T programs ARE different in different places. When my kids were in
school the program started in 3rd or 4th grade and they were taken for
one afternoon to one of the middle schools. DD#3 was eligible for it,
and one of her best friends was in it, but I went and observed and did
not care for the way the teacher spoke to the children - IMHO she was
threatened by their intelligence and was very harsh and dismissive.
(Saying things like "Look it up" when a question was asked.)

I decided not to put dd#3 in the program. Before I made the decision,
I spoke to her regular teacher (to see if he thought it would be
helpful - he did not) and to her. Her response was "I'm not gifted or
they would have told me." I was unhappy about that, because she
certainly WAS intelligent, but I decided not to enroll her.

If she had gone to another teacher at another school (I taught in 3 of
the 4 middle schools in the county so I knew two other teachers) I
would have enrolled her in a heartbeat.

I certainly won't contest your impression of your
district, as I have no experience of it. We have a similar
program (center based GT program), however, and it is *totally*
different. The kids are delightful, very well behaved, and
highly supportive of the school and school programs--not to
mention that their parents are some of the most highly
active in the whole school, and their efforts benefit the
*whole* school, not just the center based GT part. I'll
agree that the label is unfortunate, though I'm not
sure what the program ought to be called.


I think your perspective as a parent is somewhat skewed by the
participation of the G&T parents. Parents and teachers do make a big
difference to the individual programs.

To Sue:

I would totally give up the idea of taking your child out of school
for enrichment activities. It sounds as though she is quite happy
with her friends where she is. Let her be a child and do children's
things. You can do quite a lot after school and on weekends and
holidays (like what Wendy does with her boys) to provide enrichment
without trying to reform the whole school system.

You say that you don't like the G&T program because the kids are made
to feel they are superior. Well that's exactly the kind of attitude
that you will foster in your child when you say - she's at the top of
the class it won't hurt her to miss.

If she is sick, you will have enough to do dealing with the
no-child-left-behind garbage.

grandma Rosalie
  #54  
Old October 26th 03, 06:48 PM
Clisby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?



Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Banty wrote:


This is one of the reasons why I have mixed feelings about tracking.

I had the experience of moving from one state to another, but actually
having
must of my cohort move with me. When I ws in junior high, my father's
SAC
squadron was transferred from Texas to New Hampshire, and many of the
kids I
knew transferred into the Portsmouth, NH school district with me.

Texas didnt' track, New Hampshire did; we were all tested, and I was
put on the
math/science accelerated track. The social pressure was definitely on
to not
socialize with kids on lower tracks. Local kids hadn't socialized
with them for
some time, but for the Air Force kids it came as something of a shock.




Hmm...I can certainly see this as an issue, but I have
to ask how many elementary school kids socialize much outside
their classroom anyway? After a few years, obviously you have
friends in other classes in the same grade, but in my experience
it seems like socialization follows along classroom lines
regardless of the program kids are or aren't in.



Is it that uncommon these days for kids to go to neighborhood schools?
I would have thought socializing would precede school attendance.

Yesterday, I took my two children to our annual neighborhood Halloween
party and parade. My 7-year-old socalized with kids from her school (a
small private one), from the nearby charter school; from the regular
neigborhood public school; from one of the Catholic schools; and from
one other Atlanta private school. These kids know each other because
the live around here, not just because they attend school together.

Clisby

Clisby

  #55  
Old October 26th 03, 07:26 PM
Banty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?

In article , Ericka Kammerer says...

Banty wrote:


This is one of the reasons why I have mixed feelings about tracking.

I had the experience of moving from one state to another, but actually having
must of my cohort move with me. When I ws in junior high, my father's SAC
squadron was transferred from Texas to New Hampshire, and many of the kids I
knew transferred into the Portsmouth, NH school district with me.

Texas didnt' track, New Hampshire did; we were all tested, and I was put on the
math/science accelerated track. The social pressure was definitely on to not
socialize with kids on lower tracks. Local kids hadn't socialized with them for
some time, but for the Air Force kids it came as something of a shock.



Hmm...I can certainly see this as an issue, but I have
to ask how many elementary school kids socialize much outside
their classroom anyway? After a few years, obviously you have
friends in other classes in the same grade, but in my experience
it seems like socialization follows along classroom lines
regardless of the program kids are or aren't in. At our
elementary school, the *only* opportunity for socializing
outside one's class is at recess, and that's not a whole lot
of time to meet other kids and establish a relationship.
At lunch they're required to sit with their class (just the
way they manage the cafeteria). Classes and grades mingle
at other times, like assemblies and such, but obviously
those aren't time for socializing. Band and orchestra
are another opportunity in the later grades, but we haven't
gotten there yet.


Really??

I guess that doesn't jibe with my experience at all, either as a child or a
parent of a child. As a kid, we socialized in the neighborhood. We always
lived on base and there were tons of kids. A lot of the kids went to Catholic
schools, but after playing together all summer and evenings and weekends, it
wasn't a big deal. So moving with the same kids, going into neighborhoods with
the same kids (just different arrangements of houses) really put out in relief
that suddenly it was supposed to be bad to talk to most of my friends anymore.

A generation later, my son has neighborhood friends - again lots of boys in our
neighborhood. And then cub scouts is a big base of friendship, for both parents
and children, and this included kids from different schools. In my son's
birthday parties I'd say the guests are 1) neighborhood 2) scouts 3) classroom.
And the bonds form most when they have two connections, like a friend of a
neighborhood friend who is also in a class with my son.


There are, of course, opportunities outside the
classroom, like clubs and teams and such. At our school,
those are open to everyone (GT center kids and community
school kids) and kids do socialize there to some extent.
Still, my kids' friends are generally either kids that
are in their classroom or kids that live in our neighborhood.
My oldest started the center based GT program this
year (3rd grade). He was lucky in that he didn't have to
switch schools because his community school happens to be
the nearest school with the GT center, but most of the
kids in his class did come from other schools. It is
certainly an adjustment for them, but most seem to be
integrating well (the school counselors do a lot of work
making sure they make the adjustment well). Obviously,
they have a bit of a challenge meeting kids outside
their class, but many are involved in clubs and get to
interact with other kids that way.
There's certainly a downside to segregating kids
this way, but there are also downsides to mainstreaming
GT kids as well. I guess I like the system here. For
the kids gifted enough to be in the center based program
(there's also a school based enrichment GT program for
kids with needs that can be met within the context of a
mainstream program), they are pulled out into a separate
program with basically no mainstreaming for 3rd-6th grade.
In jr. high (7th-8th grade) they are in a separate program
for their core academics, but are mainstreamed for non-
academic and elective courses (PE, band, drama, art,
foreign languages, etc.). In high school (9th-12th)
they choose their own classes at their own level,
perhaps taking AP (advanced placement) or IB (international
baccalaureate) classes as they please on a class by
class basis along with everyone else. I think this
system provides the center based program when they
most need to focus on learning how to handle their
particular situation with teachers who are experienced
with the issues of gifted kids, but then they are
gradually mainstreamed so that they can learn how to
continue to learn and perform at their level in a
wider context. Seems a reasonable compromise to me.


Seems so. I'm talking about 7th grade; we were completely tracked. I was in
"7X" classes and that was that.

I agree that it's not a simple thing - bright nerdy kids like me definately get
harassed and I had my share of problems. In one sense it was wonderful to be
with other bright kids, but I *had* made connections outside that category over
the years, and that was pretty much a hard-won thing. That they were suddenly
so uncool was really a shock. I think it affected my outlook on how people
choose friends and about certain superficial aspects of socializing and
connections and even networking in adult life.



Another thing they which was well-intentioned but just added to the accelerated
kids' feelings of superiority is that they put us with the special education
kids (including some retarded adults) for home ec and shop. (This was back when
girls all took home ec and boys all took shop and never the twain did meet, but
anyhow..) This was supposed to teach us patience, understanding, and humility,
but it just came off as we're not only the smartest, but we're the only ones who
are socially sensititve enough to work with the special ed kids.



Yes, this totally sounds like a plan doomed to
failure. I'm not against sensible mainstreaming and I
am wary of the problems with tracking and I understand
the benefits of mainstreaming when done well, but all in
all I like the system they have here.


Sure. I just wanted to confirm what was said that there is a certain weirdness
and expectation about socializing that can come with it.

Banty

  #56  
Old October 26th 03, 08:29 PM
Sue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?

Ericka Kammerer wrote in message
What does GT stand for?


Same as yours, but backwards--Gifted & Talented ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka


Oh, lol.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
I'm Just a Raggedy Ann in a Barbie Doll World...


  #57  
Old October 26th 03, 11:02 PM
Jeff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?


"Vicki" wrote in message
news
Today we received a warning letter for truancy for our 2nd grader. The
principal said she was concerned about dd's absences. I am not concerned
about dd's absences--she is bright, she knows the material [she's missed
five days this month, but received 100 on her test for materials covered.]
I don't think the teacher is concerned. But the principal said dd is only
allowed 5 excused absences per semester.

I'm not happy about the possibility of legal sanctions for keeping dd home
(she was sick this month, but I wouldn't hesitate to take her out of

school
for other things we feel are important.) Can they prosecute us for

truancy
when dd is top of her class? I don't see the harm to anyone in dd not
going.


It is hard for the teacher, because he has to do extra work to make sure she
is up-to-date. And it is bad for the other kids, because she is a member of
the class. Having her there EVERY day helps keep the classroom more
consistant and predicable.

And she *will* miss more school at Thanksgiving (important family
time.)

We had planned to talk at school conferences about keeping dd home one day
per week, or bi-weekly, to enhance her education. But from what I've read
about truancy laws tonight, this doesn't seem to be allowable. Has anyone
done this or know if it is doable?


Yes, this is doable. Take your daughter out totally and do home schooling.
However, if you want her to benefit from the school district, the school
needs her to be in school, every day.

dd does not want to homeschool full-time--she likes seeing her friends at
school and we think this is good for her.


And her friends, which is why she should be there every day.

We have discussed getting
appropriate challenge in her classroom--the teacher has been helpful, but
there is only so much she can do. We chose not to skip dd to the next

grade
as she is already the youngest in her class.

Have others faced this truancy problem? How do you approach it? If this

is
a law (5 days/semester,) does the principal have much leeway in enforcing
it?


Possibly. But you should not have much leeway in breaking it.

If not, then who do we talk with? The DA? Is it possible to
homeschool part-time (the days dd misses) and avoid a truancy enforcement?
Could we test out of second grade and attendance be optional?


There is more to education than just knowlege. Like learning to be part of a
class and participate.

dh is calling the principal next week, and we will meet with dd's teacher

in
three weeks. I'd like to have a sense of our options before we go so we

do
what's right by dd and cause the least distress to her teacher and

principal
(who are quite nice.) Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Simple, don't take her out of class. There is plenty of time for additional
education: weekends, the summer, vacations. It is not fair to the teacher,
your daughter or the other kids in the class.

Jeff

Thank you.
Vicki




  #58  
Old October 27th 03, 12:43 AM
Ericka Kammerer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?

Clisby wrote:


Hmm...I can certainly see this as an issue, but I have
to ask how many elementary school kids socialize much outside
their classroom anyway? After a few years, obviously you have
friends in other classes in the same grade, but in my experience
it seems like socialization follows along classroom lines
regardless of the program kids are or aren't in.


Is it that uncommon these days for kids to go to neighborhood schools?
I would have thought socializing would precede school attendance.

Yesterday, I took my two children to our annual neighborhood Halloween
party and parade. My 7-year-old socalized with kids from her school (a
small private one), from the nearby charter school; from the regular
neigborhood public school; from one of the Catholic schools; and from
one other Atlanta private school. These kids know each other because
the live around here, not just because they attend school together.



My kids also know the kids in the neighborhood,
and those kids go to a variety of schools. I'm just saying
that whatever class or track my kids were in, their school-
based socializing would revolve almost exclusively around
their classroom, not on the school as a whole. There is
*some* interaction with other kids in the school but not
in the same classroom, but it's *very* limited.

Best wishes,
Ericka

  #59  
Old October 27th 03, 12:58 AM
Ericka Kammerer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?

Banty wrote:
[ socializing outside one's classroom]


Really??

I guess that doesn't jibe with my experience at all, either as a child or a
parent of a child. As a kid, we socialized in the neighborhood. We always
lived on base and there were tons of kids. A lot of the kids went to Catholic
schools, but after playing together all summer and evenings and weekends, it
wasn't a big deal. So moving with the same kids, going into neighborhoods with
the same kids (just different arrangements of houses) really put out in relief
that suddenly it was supposed to be bad to talk to most of my friends anymore.



I can certainly see how that would be so if the
prohibition on socializing extended beyond the school day.
My point was that I was just wondering outside of the
unusual situation you experienced, how would most of those
student know people outside their "circle" anyway, given
that school-based friendships would come almost entirely
from the classroom anyway. I guess I was assuming that
neighborhood friends and friends from other activities
would be unaffected by this odd school division, but
apparently it extended beyond school?


A generation later, my son has neighborhood friends - again lots of boys in our
neighborhood. And then cub scouts is a big base of friendship, for both parents
and children, and this included kids from different schools. In my son's
birthday parties I'd say the guests are 1) neighborhood 2) scouts 3) classroom.
And the bonds form most when they have two connections, like a friend of a
neighborhood friend who is also in a class with my son.



Right, same here. Well, different activities, but
same principle ;-) But when it comes to kids they have no
ties with other than school, my boys only have school
friends from their classrooms because they don't really
have a chance to mingle much with school kids who aren't
in their classes (past or present).


I agree that it's not a simple thing - bright nerdy kids like me definately get
harassed and I had my share of problems. In one sense it was wonderful to be
with other bright kids, but I *had* made connections outside that category over
the years, and that was pretty much a hard-won thing. That they were suddenly
so uncool was really a shock. I think it affected my outlook on how people
choose friends and about certain superficial aspects of socializing and
connections and even networking in adult life.



Absolutely. I wonder where that segregation came
from? I would expect some small degree of us-vs-them with
any segregated program, but it seems like it was really
excessive where you were.


Best wishes,

Ericka

  #60  
Old October 27th 03, 01:39 AM
Banty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bright 2nd grader & school truancy / part-time home-school?

In article , Ericka Kammerer says...

Clisby wrote:


Hmm...I can certainly see this as an issue, but I have
to ask how many elementary school kids socialize much outside
their classroom anyway? After a few years, obviously you have
friends in other classes in the same grade, but in my experience
it seems like socialization follows along classroom lines
regardless of the program kids are or aren't in.


Is it that uncommon these days for kids to go to neighborhood schools?
I would have thought socializing would precede school attendance.

Yesterday, I took my two children to our annual neighborhood Halloween
party and parade. My 7-year-old socalized with kids from her school (a
small private one), from the nearby charter school; from the regular
neigborhood public school; from one of the Catholic schools; and from
one other Atlanta private school. These kids know each other because
the live around here, not just because they attend school together.



My kids also know the kids in the neighborhood,
and those kids go to a variety of schools. I'm just saying
that whatever class or track my kids were in, their school-
based socializing would revolve almost exclusively around
their classroom, not on the school as a whole. There is
*some* interaction with other kids in the school but not
in the same classroom, but it's *very* limited.


This still doesn't make sense to me. Do they ignore the friends they have from
the neighborhood and scouts when they go to recess, or what?

Banty

 




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