the dreaded "sleep thru night" thread

On 20 Nov 2003 11:27:27 -0800, (Cathy Weeks)
wrote:

(Elizabeth Reid) wrote in message . com...

As for having given up - I've read old threads debating this
issue, but is there any direct evidence of harm?

Found it: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html

I'm not sure of the strength of the methodology of the study. But it's something.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

Found some other references as well

http://www.hipforums.com/thread-53-123203.html

Risk in Mother-Infant Separation Postbirth. Gene Cranston Anderson.
Image: Journal of Nursing scholarship21(4), Winter 1989, pp.196-199.

Mismatch and repair from Zerotothree.org is available online
at. http://www.zerotothree.org You can read it by going to the
professional portion of the website and searching the archives
of the magazine. You need adobe acrobat's reader to read the
file.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"Circe" wrote in message news:T59vb.135$ZE1.61@fed1read04...
"Sharon" wrote in message
om...

Me, me, me (wildly waving my hand at the computer screen). I vastly
prefer the toddler stage to the infant stage. I'm wierd, I guess.

If you're weird, I'm weird too. I don't find the toddler stage particularly
difficult (although I must admit, I truly *adore* tiny babies) and have
really been getting the biggest kick out of my littlest guy's toddlerhood
(he's 20 months now).


Also, I find the
whole process of language acquisition so fascinating and so cute that it
really makes the year between 1 and 2 a pleasure.

I do too - I guess that is partly the educator in me (although my
students are young adults, not toddlers!) Now that James is starting
to read, I have found a new level of fascination with his skills
acquisition.


Honestly, I can't say there's any stage of childhood my children have been
in so far that I haven't enjoyed on some level. Yes, the 3 to 4yo can be
oppositional and argumentative, but at least you can have a real
conversation with her and she can be terribly sweet and cuddly when she
wants. Yes, the first-grader can be defiant and rules-bound, but he's also
learning to read and write and full of fascinating observations about the
world. There are always those challenging moments with kids of every age,
from newborn on up, but I find

Very true - for me I guess it boils down to the issue of communication
- in a way I can relate more to a toddler and older children, even
when they are being difficult and honery, than I can with an infant,
who still just seem so foreign to me. Perhaps because I am such a
verbally oriented person, I find I just don't do a very good job of
reading non-verbal cues in people (of any age).

What was hardest for me with James as a baby was that his needs never
followed any kind of logic - certainly not what family, friends,
doctors, books, etc.. were saying. He never slept during the day -
naps didn't start until 13 months. He consistently nursed every two
hours, 24 hours a day until he was 12 months old. He hated solids.
So I found the infant stage extremely frustrating, because no ones
advice fit to my individual situation. It was an extremely lonely and
isolating time for me. In some ways I am dreading the arrival of #2
for that very reason - I wish they could emerge from the womb at 2
years old!

Well, maybe it'll help you to know that not *all* babies behave like your
first. I remember when I was pregnant with Aurora, I was truly terrified by
the thought of having a 2yo and a newborn because I couldn't imagine how I'd
cope. But Julian was a lot like James, especially in early infancy--nursed
very often (though he *did* love solids), didn't sleep particularly well,
wanted constant attention and entertaining. I assumed that was how *all*
newborns behaved. Imagine my surprise when I brought home my darling little
baby girl and she slept and slept, nursed less often than her 2yo sibling
*wanted* to nurse, and was perfectly content much of the time she was awake
while sitting in the bouncy seat or swing and watching what was going on
around her.

You don't know how much I have needed to hear that from someone!
As I get closer to delivery, I keep asking myself how I am going to
handle another newborn - it just seems as if things are starting to
settle down, with an older child, and now I want to add a newborn into
the mix?!? But having done it once, I think I will be more calm and
confident mothering a newborn, and perhaps I will get lucky with a
more cooperative baby! We'll see.

So, there's hope. #2 may not be nearly the challenge #1 was. And I found #3
to be even easier. What I think would be worse, really, is to have a very
easygoing baby first and get your challenging one second or third. Imagine
how *that* would rattle your expectations!

Oh, I TOTALLY agree with you on this point - having had the
challenging baby first, I know what that is all about and know that I
can handle it if #2 is the same way. Having an easy baby first, and a
more challenging one second I would find pretty devistating. At least
now I am preparing for the worst - so I may be pleasantly surprised.


Sharon
Mom to James 6.2.00
EDD #2 5 December

toto wrote:
http://www.hipforums.com/thread-53-123203.html
Risk in Mother-Infant Separation Postbirth. Gene Cranston Anderson.
Image: Journal of Nursing scholarship21(4), Winter 1989, pp.196-199.
Mismatch and repair from Zerotothree.org is available online
at. http://www.zerotothree.org You can read it by going to the
professional portion of the website and searching the archives
of the magazine. You need adobe acrobat's reader to read the
i

I agree that letting a baby cry for a long period of time is bad.
But you guys are acting like it's the end of the world. I ended
up adopting my 2nd child and I know the birth parents did not
do a good job of raising her.

They let her cry, they refused to change her diaper they did a lot
of bad things.

She's fine. If you're a parent and you've made some mistakes just
stop reading all the crap and love your child. Love them with all
your heart and believe in them. They'll be ok, even if you thought
it was ok to CIO when they are infants.

toto wrote in message . ..
On 20 Nov 2003 11:27:27 -0800, (Cathy Weeks)
wrote:

(Elizabeth Reid) wrote in message . com...

As for having given up - I've read old threads debating this
issue, but is there any direct evidence of harm?

Found it: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html

I'm not sure of the strength of the methodology of the study. But it's something.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

Found some other references as well

http://www.hipforums.com/thread-53-123203.html

Risk in Mother-Infant Separation Postbirth. Gene Cranston Anderson.
Image: Journal of Nursing scholarship21(4), Winter 1989, pp.196-199.

Mismatch and repair from Zerotothree.org is available online
at. http://www.zerotothree.org You can read it by going to the
professional portion of the website and searching the archives
of the magazine. You need adobe acrobat's reader to read the
file.

I've seen the Harvard thing before, but I don't think it was actually
peer-reviewed and published, just presented at a conference, so I've
never been able to find the text. However, if the summaries I've read
are true, they're doing cross-cultural comparisons. I tend to think
that comparsions that look at one small aspect of American cultural
practices (incidentally, they were decrying crib-sleeping as much
as sleep training) and one small aspect of the cultural practices
of the Gusii of Kenya and links those practics to specific outcomes
is likely to be suspect.

The other reference appears to be talking about newborns (there's
a mention of infant crying in the first 4-5 days of life). Since
everybody agrees that newborns should never be left to cry, I'm not
sure it's relevant. I admit to skepticism about the notion that
crying in and of itself is physically harmful, since most sources
are confident that colicky babies who regularly cry for hours
suffer no long-term consequences. It's almost inevitable that
parents eventually wind up 'causing' crying by refusing to let
their children play with knives, plunge into the duck pond, etc.,
so it seems to be a question of when and why rather than whether
it's okay to 'let your child cry'.

I wish somebody'd do a study that specifically examines kids
before and after sleep training begins, and looks for signs of
trauma, loss of trust, etc.

Beth

"Melissa" wrote in

Of
course, it means that I've become what I swore I'd never
become: one of those Mummies who walks around carrying her
baby (as opposed to wearing, carrying in infant carrier or
in a stroller) for shorter errands. Oy! --

"enigma" wrote
but what's "wrong" with carrying as opposed to the others?
Boo came home from the hospital in his Britax (i have a
personal dislike of those "baby bucket" carrier/seats). i used
a sling or either a front or back pack depending on his mood &
where we were going, but a lot of the time i just carried him
because it was easier.
he wasn't into strollers either... i guess i don't get why
you 'swore you'd never be one of those mummies that carried
thier kids'

When you carry your child (as opposed to using other methods) you lose a lot
of flexibility including an easy way to get to your wallet, carry things,
etc. It always looked awkward to me (and still does). I find that everything
takes much longer than if she would be happy in the Baby Bjorn or stroller
because I have to work around her interested hands (not a bad thing but adds
time).

--
Melissa (in Los Angeles)
Mum to Elizabeth 4/13/03

(Cathy Weeks) wrote in message . com...
(Elizabeth Reid) wrote in message . com...

As for having given up - I've read old threads debating this
issue, but is there any direct evidence of harm?

Found it: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...enNeedTou.html

I'm not sure of the strength of the methodology of the study. But it's something.

It says that kids who are left to cry become adults who are
"traumatized" nervous nellies. But it gives us no reason to believe
that. We read that Gusii mothers are horrified at American mothers'
practices, but we're never told what Gusii society is like, that is,
what is the supposed result of being more responsive to babies' cries
than the American moms on the videotape. I feel the need to point that
out that "primitive societies" where babies tend to sleep with parents
do not generally make model societies. And, of course, letting babies
sleep with parents doesn't always coincide with responsiveness during
the day.

The biggest problem I have with the article is that they don't define
the kind and amount of crying they think is damaging to kids. Very few
among us, I imagine, would say it isn't damaging to be generally
unresponsive to your babies' cries. Neglect = Bad. (Duh?) However,
this thread is about nighttime "crying it out," which for many of us
has meant that a baby who is fussed and cooed over much of the day is
allowed to cry for 20 mins, then 10 mins, then 5 mins on 2 or 3 nights
at 9 months old. That does not translate into a pattern of neglect.

Circe wrote in message
news:T59vb.135$ZE1.61@fed1read04...
I suppose for me, things get most difficult when the child
gets old enough to actually *know* he/she is pulling your
chain and to do it on purpose and with malice aforethought
g, maybe around age 2.5-3yo.

This what I actually meant. :-) I guess I should stop referring to
Julie as a toddler one of these days, but, she can't already be a
preschooler, can she?!?

Also, I find the whole process of language acquisition so
fascinating and so cute that it really makes the year between
1 and 2 a pleasure.

I agree, from age one to age two was delightful. Getting from two to
three has been more challenging.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 2 yr., 7 mo.
And Jaden, 2 months

Cleaning the house while your children are small is like
shoveling the sidewalk while it's still snowing.

Sharon wrote in message
om...
You don't know how much I have needed to hear that from
someone!

In that case I will second what Barbara said. I had great difficulty
with the newborn phase with Julie. I don't know if she was a
"challenging" baby or not. I think it's more likely I just had no clue
what I was doing.

As I get closer to delivery, I keep asking myself how I am
going to handle another newborn - it just seems as if things
are starting to settle down, with an older child, and now I
want to add a newborn into the mix?!? But having done it
once, I think I will be more calm and confident mothering
a newborn, and perhaps I will get lucky with a more
cooperative baby! We'll see.

I do feel so much calmer and more confident this time. I snipped what
you wrote about having difficulty reading non-verbal cues, but I have to
say I'm having a much easier time discerning what Jaden wants than I did
what Julie wanted. I think because every time Julie cried I nearly
panicked and couldn't think straight. This time the crying doesn't
phase me so much and I'm able to react calmly. Plus this time, I
realize there's only so many things it could be - hunger, gas, or being
tired pretty much cover it. I don't know if Jaden is a more easy-going
baby, or if it's a reflection of having a more easy-going mother than
Julie had. Anyway, taking care of him has been a *lot* easier than I
remember taking care of Julie being, even though I am now caring for
two!
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 2 yr., 7 mo.
And Jaden, 2 months

Cleaning the house while your children are small is like
shoveling the sidewalk while it's still snowing.

(Elizabeth Reid) wrote in message . com...

I've seen the Harvard thing before, but I don't think it was actually
peer-reviewed and published, just presented at a conference, so I've
never been able to find the text.

I have it. I emailed the authors yesterday, and they emailed the two
files to me this morning. I'm waiting on permission to quote them
and/or forward then on (though I'm sure the latter isn't kosher). You
are correct that they were papers presented at a conference - it
doesn't look like they were published or peer-reviewed. I have not
read them yet.

However, if the summaries I've read
are true, they're doing cross-cultural comparisons. I tend to think
that comparsions that look at one small aspect of American cultural
practices (incidentally, they were decrying crib-sleeping as much
as sleep training) and one small aspect of the cultural practices
of the Gusii of Kenya and links those practics to specific outcomes
is likely to be suspect.

Why? It's easier to control for smaller numbers of variables.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

(Elizabeth Reid) wrote in message . com...

I wish somebody'd do a study that specifically examines kids
before and after sleep training begins, and looks for signs of
trauma, loss of trust, etc.

I agree. And better yet, do comparisons of adults who were sleep
trained vs. ones who were not.

My brothers and I were all allowed to CIO, and all three of us have
sleep problems.

My father doesn't seem to have any sleep problems, but my mother does.
I have no idea if they were allowed to CIO or not (and my grandparents
are dead, and so cannot ask them). So are my sleep problems something
I inherited from my mother, or something that was caused by CIO? Who
knows!!

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01