How Children REALLY React To Control

On 9 Jun 2004, Kane wrote:

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 13:23:03 -0700, Doan wrote:

On 9 Jun 2004, Chris wrote:

In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay
wrote:

: But by and large, the system works. And throwing it out before
we're
: positive that we have something that will work better in the real
world,
: with real parents and real children, would be foolish.

Once again, Nathan, you appear to be talking about win/win
cooperative
nonpunitive discipline as if it were some sort of new untested
concept
rather than a set of approaches to dealing with conflict in the
parent/child relationship developed decades ago and used
successfully in
thousands of families.

Ah! I just love the logic. :-) Isn't this the same argument that you
don't like about spanking? Afterall, spanking has been used for
thousands
of years and BILLIONS of families.

Sorry. Not the same logic at all. And no, that's not the argument he
used either.

You overlooked the word "successfully." That's the key.

Your definition? ;-)

If all you have is a hammer ever problem looks like a nail.

And if you have a hammer when the problem is a nail? :-)

Some parents have learned about other ways to solve problems than
using a hammer.

And most parents learned when to use a hammer. :-)

And in fact, we now drive nails, or make fastenings with many more
things than hammers and nails.

And banned hammers? ;-)

We've even learned how to line up molecules so materials will bond to
each other without "spanking" them.

So Home Depot no longer sell hammers and nails??? :-)

In other words.

Parents are improving.

I hope so!

Are you against improving?

nope. Are you? :-)


Improvement can save a lot of cat's-asses in good wood, avoid a lot of
smashed fingers, and reduce production of a lot of, dare I say it?
Injured children.

And which cultures made more improvements, non-spanking ones?

Doan

Not hitting, and doing other things instead seems to be too hard for
some. Probably they should think about getting a pet rock.

Or stop listen to the "experts". :-)

Doan

Kane

"Doan" wrote in message
...

Simple answer - Steve is a "never-spanked" kid! :-)

Why in the world would you think that? To me, his attitude looks a whole
lot more like what I would expect from someone who was punished as a child,
resented it, and can't imagine anyone else resenting it any less (or at
least much less) than he does.

Further, I think there are a lot of children who have very good reason to
resent the way their parents use their authority. There are parents who
make their kids wait on them. There are parents who frequently answer the
question "Why?" with "Because I said so," or, "Because I'm bigger than you."
There are parents who mostly ignore their kids when they aren't scolding or
punishing them, who view their children more as an inconvenience than as a
treasure.

Even under the best of conditions, the use of parental authority can easily
generate a certain amount of resentment. If the relationship between the
parents and the children is strong, and if the children trust and respect
their parents, bits of occasional resentment can generally be swallowed up
by the overall strength of the relationship. Even if the children disagree
with their parents, the children know their parents love them and are trying
to do what's best for them. But if parents give their children little
reason to love, or trust, or respect them, how much can punishment
accomplish in that kind of vacuum of positive influence?

It is the positive elements of the parent-child relationship - the example
parents set, and the respect and trust they earn, and their ability to
persuade with reason - that have by far the strongest influence on
children's behavior. When those elements aren't there, or are weak, the
very most that punishment can accomplish is to hold negative behavior
partially in check. And even while it does that, it also generates
resentment that can fan the flames for future misbehavior.

As I've told Chris and the others on his side of the issue, I view
punishment - including spanking - as something that can be useful at times
when positive efforts fail or when there isn't time to make them work
properly. But the idea that if a child behaves badly on a frequent basis,
the blame should automatically be fixed on not enough spanking is absurd.
Most of the time, there is a much deeper problem that spanking could not
possibly put more than a band-aid on.

Nathan

"Nathan A. Barclay" wrote in message
...

Most of the time, there is a much deeper problem that spanking could not
possibly put more than a band-aid on.

By the way, before anyone makes too much of this statement, you might
consider how many band-aids are sold each year.

More seriously, I do think I need to clarify this a bit. There are a lot of
situations where additional spanking or other punishment would help reduce
behavior problems - and especially behavior problems in the presence of
adults or that adults are likely to learn about. And in some cases, the
possibility of punishment genuinely needs to be an ongoing part of a
solution, at least until a child's self-discipline is ready to take over.

But when there are major problems contributing to children's wanting to
misbehave, and society places the blame on a lack of punishment, we never
even notice the underlying problems much less try to find ways to address
them that will reduce children's desire to misbehave. We focus on
suppressing the misbehavior that is a symptom of the deeper problem, and
completely ignore the underlying disease. And because we focus only on the
symptom, we keep applying band-aid after band-aid while the wound itself
does not heal. That distraction from other issues that need to be addressed
is what makes the knee-jerk, "He must not have been spanked," or, "He must
not have been spanked enough," attitude so very dangerous.

Nathan

Doan wrote:

But I do believe and have proof that my mouth is
FULL OF ****!
Doan
------------------
You are right! :-)
Steve

Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

Our kids read or slept or listened to music or TV or computer just
exactly as they LIKED, and came and went as they liked, and they
thereby learned their OWN INTERNAL self-regulation for THEIR OWN
purposes, and didn't have to undergo ANY shock of first freedom
when they moved from our home to their first place of their own!

I find it curious that someone who claims to have such strong respect for
his children's rights and desires would adopt as arrogant, disrespectful,
and insulting a tone as you do toward other adults.
--------------------
Not all adults, only abusive ones. If the shoe fits, wear it!


How would you expect
your children to react to the kind of tone you are using here on this
newsgroup?
--------------------
When they bother to read any of it they usually giggle uncontrollably.


What would your children think if they told you they felt one
way about something, and you tried to insist that they could not possibly
feel that way and must feel some other way entirely?
----------------------------
Gee, since none of us were INSANE or an ASSHOLE, it never came up!


And why would you
expect such a tone to be any more successful with adults than it would be
with your children?
---------------------------
Because those who abuse need to be harmed to stop them,
they are beyond remediation. In future societies we will
need work-camps for such assholes.
Steve

Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

"Doan" wrote in message
...

Simple answer - Steve is a "never-spanked" kid! :-)
--------------
True.


Why in the world would you think that? To me, his attitude looks a whole
lot more like what I would expect from someone who was punished as a child,
resented it, and can't imagine anyone else resenting it any less (or at
least much less) than he does.
--------------------------------
No. Think a minute, what is the one way someone could be exposed to
abuse and yet not themselves be abused, so that they learned about
abuse but had little or none of the neurotic reaction against it,
but who was scandalized by it and horrified by it unlike others more
accustomed to it?? Answer: By living as the exceptional family among
a real bunch of abusive insane fundy rural hillbillies and being
totally disgusted by the effects of abuse on their little playmates
who ARE being abyssmally abused for a decade or more by these abusive
cretins!!


Further, I think there are a lot of children who have very good reason to
resent the way their parents use their authority. There are parents who
make their kids wait on them. There are parents who frequently answer the
question "Why?" with "Because I said so," or, "Because I'm bigger than you."
There are parents who mostly ignore their kids when they aren't scolding or
punishing them, who view their children more as an inconvenience than as a
treasure.
----------------------------
And people who beat their kids with thin fiberlgass curtain rods.


Even under the best of conditions, the use of parental authority can easily
generate a certain amount of resentment.
-----------
Try MURDER!


If the relationship between the
parents and the children is strong, and if the children trust and respect
their parents, bits of occasional resentment can generally be swallowed up
by the overall strength of the relationship.
---------------
NOTHING evil EVER disappears! It ALWAYS does PERMANENT DAMAGE!


Even if the children disagree
with their parents, the children know their parents love them and are trying
to do what's best for them. But if parents give their children little
reason to love, or trust, or respect them, how much can punishment
accomplish in that kind of vacuum of positive influence?
---------------------
You cannot compensate that way, it does NOT WORK!
The revenge-hate sees that as a dishonest deception.


It is the positive elements of the parent-child relationship - the example
parents set, and the respect and trust they earn, and their ability to
persuade with reason - that have by far the strongest influence on
children's behavior. When those elements aren't there, or are weak, the
very most that punishment can accomplish is to hold negative behavior
partially in check. And even while it does that, it also generates
resentment that can fan the flames for future misbehavior.
----------------------------------
Nonsense, punishment for things that are not crimes, and corporal
punishments for anything, only damages those kids and create criminal
monsters!!


As I've told Chris and the others on his side of the issue, I view
punishment - including spanking - as something that can be useful at times
when positive efforts fail or when there isn't time to make them work
properly.
----------------------
You just mean when you're lazy or stupid. And you're wrong, same reason.
Do you really simply not GET this stuff, or WHAT!!???????

Have you ever been hit or threatened? Why can't you be honest about
what you felt, then, and realize that it makes a child quite literally
turn around away from the future of his life, and instead turn upon
you and swear a dire oath of vengeance, or to start pushing back at
you right away, to the exclusion of their future, any sort of positive
development whatsoever, and your safety!


But the idea that if a child behaves badly on a frequent basis,
the blame should automatically be fixed on not enough spanking is absurd.
Most of the time, there is a much deeper problem
------------------------
The problem was ALWAYS: EARLIER spanking, hitting, coercing, and
threatening!!


that spanking could not possibly put more than a band-aid on.

Nathan
---------------------------
It's actually like rubbing salt in the wound.
Steve

Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

"Nathan A. Barclay" wrote in message
...

More seriously, I do think I need to clarify this a bit. There are a lot of
situations where additional spanking or other punishment would help reduce
behavior problems
------------------
That's an absolute lie and a totally trashy amateurish falsehood,
nothing more!!


and especially behavior problems in the presence of
adults or that adults are likely to learn about.
--------------------
Ain't any that are not the child's RIGHT!

So you want to be able to follow children and around and raise your
hand and make them flinch, eh? Reminds me of an asshole father showing
off at a family reunion picnic, where he wanted to display his "ability"
to control(abuse) his children, two young teenage boys. He kept making
them flinch like that till the older one turned and hit him in the face
and knocked him down, and the younger one jumped on him and beat the
**** out of him with a barbecue fork!! IT took ten people to keep them
from killing him!

You're nothing but human **** if you think that!


And in some cases, the
possibility of punishment genuinely needs to be an ongoing part of a
solution, at least until a child's self-discipline is ready to take over.
--------------
You're using euphemisms, you ACTUALLY mean TERROR!


But when there are major problems contributing to children's wanting to
misbehave, and society places the blame on a lack of punishment, we never
even notice the underlying problems much less try to find ways to address
them that will reduce children's desire to misbehave.
-----------------------
The normal desires of kids for autonomy are not to be screwed with,
or you can drive a peacable child to become criminal toward others.

ALL criminal misbehaviors against others are CAUSED by punishments!

NO punishment of ANY KIND can make them magically go away, it will
only cause them to change form and metastasize!!

In all cases, punishment ALWAYS causes criminality!


We focus on
suppressing the misbehavior that is a symptom of the deeper problem, and
completely ignore the underlying disease. And because we focus only on the
symptom, we keep applying band-aid after band-aid while the wound itself
does not heal. That distraction from other issues that need to be addressed
is what makes the knee-jerk, "He must not have been spanked," or, "He must
not have been spanked enough," attitude so very dangerous.

Nathan
--------------------------------
It is idiotic to imagine that if hitting someone makes them turn and
want to hit you, that doing it somemore will ever help the situation!
Steve

Doan wrote:

On 9 Jun 2004, Kane wrote:

Improvement can save a lot of cat's-asses in good wood, avoid a lot of
smashed fingers, and reduce production of a lot of, dare I say it?
Injured children.

And which cultures made more improvements, non-spanking ones?
--------------------------------
They weren't actually "improvements", they were degradations!


Not hitting, and doing other things instead seems to be too hard for
some. Probably they should think about getting a pet rock.

Or stop listen to the "experts". :-)
Doan
-------------------------------
You need to be professionally tortured till you shut your ****ing
vicious little ********.
Steve

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Nathan A. Barclay wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...

Simple answer - Steve is a "never-spanked" kid! :-)

Why in the world would you think that?

Because he said so! :-0

To me, his attitude looks a whole
lot more like what I would expect from someone who was punished as a child,
resented it, and can't imagine anyone else resenting it any less (or at
least much less) than he does.

Nope! That would described Chris and LaVonne! :-)

Further, I think there are a lot of children who have very good reason to
resent the way their parents use their authority. There are parents who
make their kids wait on them. There are parents who frequently answer the
question "Why?" with "Because I said so," or, "Because I'm bigger than you."
There are parents who mostly ignore their kids when they aren't scolding or
punishing them, who view their children more as an inconvenience than as a
treasure.

And you will get no disagreement from me.

Even under the best of conditions, the use of parental authority can easily
generate a certain amount of resentment. If the relationship between the
parents and the children is strong, and if the children trust and respect
their parents, bits of occasional resentment can generally be swallowed up
by the overall strength of the relationship. Even if the children disagree
with their parents, the children know their parents love them and are trying
to do what's best for them. But if parents give their children little
reason to love, or trust, or respect them, how much can punishment
accomplish in that kind of vacuum of positive influence?

How much can non-punishment accomplish in such the situation?

It is the positive elements of the parent-child relationship - the example
parents set, and the respect and trust they earn, and their ability to
persuade with reason - that have by far the strongest influence on
children's behavior. When those elements aren't there, or are weak, the
very most that punishment can accomplish is to hold negative behavior
partially in check. And even while it does that, it also generates
resentment that can fan the flames for future misbehavior.

Agree!

As I've told Chris and the others on his side of the issue, I view
punishment - including spanking - as something that can be useful at times
when positive efforts fail or when there isn't time to make them work
properly. But the idea that if a child behaves badly on a frequent basis,
the blame should automatically be fixed on not enough spanking is absurd.
Most of the time, there is a much deeper problem that spanking could not
possibly put more than a band-aid on.

And if you have been following my posts, I have consistently said
spanking/non-spanking has little to do with it. Parenting is MUCH
MORE than that!

Doan

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...

No. Think a minute, what is the one way someone could be exposed to
abuse and yet not themselves be abused, so that they learned about
abuse but had little or none of the neurotic reaction against it,
but who was scandalized by it and horrified by it unlike others more
accustomed to it?? Answer: By living as the exceptional family among
a real bunch of abusive insane fundy rural hillbillies and being
totally disgusted by the effects of abuse on their little playmates
who ARE being abyssmally abused for a decade or more by these abusive
cretins!!

If the statistics even come halfway close to holding, most of your "little
playmates" presumably grew up to believe in spanking. Would you take the
kind of verbally abusive attitude toward them that you do toward me? Or are
you just doing it toward me because I'm someone you don't know, and are
therefore more free to assume the worst about:?

And why would you
expect such a tone to be any more successful with adults than it would
be with your children?
---------------------------
Because those who abuse need to be harmed to stop them,
they are beyond remediation. In future societies we will
need work-camps for such assholes.

"They need to be harmed to stop them" sounds an awful lot like the attitude
that "those who abuse" take toward children, doesn't it?

And if it is impossible to persuade people who believe that spanking is
useful that it isn't, how do you expect us to get to the kind of "future
societies" you speak of?