first day of kindergarten and homework!

In article , Cathy Kearns
says...


"Caledonia" wrote in message
ups.com...
I think no one is saying that sitting for 30 minutes to do stuff is far
too much to ask -- my perspective is that at K, a 5yo has already done
6 hours of this in school, and I'm more inclined to want a kid to spend
their afterschool time -- which for us, was probably about ~3 hours,
prior to dinner and reading and bed routines -- at that age 'doing
their own thing' (their own coloring, their own stories, reading and
being read to, playing, even) versus having another half-hour of
instruction.

In California kindergarten is mandated to be 3 hours and 20 minutes. Many
school districts can't offer more than that because they don't have the
classroom space. (They run two half day classes in each class room.) Our
district offers a full day (5.5 hour) kindergarten that is optional. If you
take the full day kindergarten you are at a different campus than you will
be in first grade, as all the full day kindergartens are at a campus set up
for only special programs. If you don't mind the half day kindergarten they
get to be at the same school they will be going to for grades 1-6. Yet
given the choice of half day or full day, most parents pick the full day.

Note, in this district homework is not allowed until second semester of 1st
grade, so this really has nothing to do with homework. Just an observation
that perhaps parents are the ones pushing more schooling.



Parents pick full day K because it's difficult for many to arrange to be home to
get the kids off the bus in the middle of the day. Working parents in
particular need the full day because it's usually difficult to find daycare to
patch in for the rest of the day.

If there were an option, say, to do only two full Kindy days, and there were a
lot of daycares willing to take kids for the other three days, then you could
take a measure of whether or not parents are "pushing more schooling" by how
many sign up for all day K five times a week.

Banty


--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Cathy Kearns wrote:


Note, in this district homework is not allowed until second semester of 1st
grade, so this really has nothing to do with homework. Just an observation
that perhaps parents are the ones pushing more schooling.

Not to be too cynical, but how much of that is due
to wanting more schooling and how much to wanting more
childcare? ;-)


That was exactly my thinking. More school = daycare....

There certainly are parents who want to keep up
with the Joneses and have more homework. There's a lot
of that around here, which is part of the reason that
homework gets out of line. There seem to be a number of
folks who equate lots of homework with a good education
and want to brag to their friends who are shelling out
for private school that *their* kids are getting even
*more* homework in public school. Aren't they smart--
getting a better education for free!

My sibs in CA all have kids in schools with what I consider to be
excessive homework but they say 'it's how it's done here' and 'you have
to do it for the kids to be competitive.' Seems over board to me esp
for kids in grades 1-4

Along those lines, my nephews, about to start 9th and 10th grade are in
summer school. I asked my sister if they had to make up classes or
something and she said no, it's 'optional required.' ie - it's
technically optional but since every kid in school goes to summer
school, it's basically required if the kid wants to keep up. She said
they like it. Back in my day summer was for *fun* stuff! Not more
school! Now I loved school and learning, but free time to explore and
create was also so important. Is this summer school trend really
becoming the norm?

FWIW - we will likely be living in Switzerland by the time our kids our
school age, and the system is very different. So I'm not tooworried
about our own kids, just yet.

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
frank megaweege wrote:

To be honest, I'm somewhat playing devil's advocate, because my
kindergartner didn't have 30 minutes of homework every night. He had
something most days, probably averaging more like 10 or 15 minutes.
Occasionally it took 30 or more.
My inclination is to support the teacher and the school in their
mission and to accept that every policy may not be ideal for each
individual child. My peeve on this issue is the sense that some
parents seem antagonistic towards the role of public education. To a
certain extent, when you're child enters school, you are giving him up
to the collective. The policies and curriculum cannot cater to every
person's lifestyle and beliefs.

I agree with that in general, but that doesn't mean
that the school doesn't have some obligation to provide a
high quality education, which in my opinion means following
best practices, insofar as they're known. Since there is
precious little evidence to support the effectiveness of
massive homework loads and plenty of evidence to support
their negative effects (at least in "normal" circumstances),
I have a problem with the notion of assigning too much
homework. I would have the same problem if they were
using a poor quality textbook, poor teaching methodologies,
etc. I think supporting the school *MEANS* holding them
to high standards when they have made unfortunate choices.
Now, in the grand scheme of things, there may
be "best practices" that are not good for my individual
child. I understand that, and am perfectly willing to
work around those things. But when there are practices
that are not beneficial in general and that are harmful
to my child, I'm certainly going to speak up.



In my opinion the o.p. overreacted to a couple of assignments the first
week of school. Most likely things will settle down into a reasonable
routine.
The resulting griping represented laziness, selfishness and anti-social
attitudes that I see as a real threat public education.
I'm all for research based best practices and I realize there are many
inefficiencies in the way most kids are educated. But some of the
scenarios being talked about (eg. a third grader with 1.5 hours of
homework every night that you mentioned) sound outlandish, to the point
that I have a hard time believing they're prevelant in real life.
Who knows? Maybe in a few years I'll think back on this conversation
and realize I'm being naive.
Right now I like that my child has homework. I feel it reinforces what
was learned in the classroom and begins to instill some structure and
discipline. It's also a way for me, as a parent, to be informed and
involved in what my child does at school. I see it as my responsiblity
to make sure that the assignments are approached in such a way that are
not counterproductive to these goals.

StephanieTheGoofy wrote:

[stayed away from the computer this weekend]

To be honest, I'm somewhat playing devil's advocate, because my
kindergartner didn't have 30 minutes of homework every night. He had
something most days, probably averaging more like 10 or 15 minutes.
Occasionally it took 30 or more.
My inclination is to support the teacher and the school in their
mission and to accept that every policy may not be ideal for each
individual child. My peeve on this issue is the sense that some
parents seem antagonistic towards the role of public education. To a
certain extent, when you're child enters school, you are giving him up
to the collective.


We've become The Borg?


society

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

frank megaweege wrote:




::snip::

Around here, I'm only recently
seeing more folks get fed up enough to say something.
I think DS1's teachers last year got a real awakening.
They had a great many projects, and apparently enough
parents said something about the huge amounts of time
that were going into them at home. So, the teachers
decided to make many of them in class projects. They'd
allocate an hour or so a day to work on the project,
and by George, they found that an hour a day (during
school, before the kids were tired at the end of the
day) wasn't enough to meet the deadlines they'd set!
They had to extend deadlines, trim scope, and even
delete some projects. The rest of us were all sitting
at home thinking, yeah, our kids were doing that
hour a day at home and still getting behind and still
having other homework to do *on top of* the projects
every day. It was insane, and finally the teachers
started to realize it. It's not that the projects
weren't good. They were fun, creative, educational
projects. They simply took too much time. But that
was one success story out of many failures. Most
people I know who go to talk about homework loads
are basically unsuccessful at getting any resolution,
even those who go in with a very positive and
cooperative attitude.

What Ericka said.

I also ran into the mega-hours of homework that nominally was to take an hour,
and it clearly wasn't a kid-hour. When I did have a teacher who was willing to
let my son stop at an hour, I ran into *his* own self-imposed requirement that
he finish and do what he thought expected of him. Why would I want to thwart
that attitude? How frustrating it must be to know something more is expected,
and to have a tug of war going on between fulfilling that and and a parent
saying to stop.

The best I ever got as far as resolution was that a couple of elementary school
teachers would assign homework such that we could do some on the weekend.
Giving some of the assignments due the following week (after Monday) on the
previous Friday. Because part of the problem is that, as a mitigation of the
whole homework-family life issue, my school district had an unofficial policy
that there would be no homework over the weekends. But, that meant that
homework, Cub Scouts, and just about everything else was crammed into Monday
through Thursday nights. For my family, offloading some of that to the weekend
worked much better. But only a very few teachers did that, because it required
them planning more ahead.

Another problem is that many of the assignments were things like coloring - even
up to seventh grade science!

Banty


--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm

When our district had 1/2 day kindergarten, the entire 1/2 day was
on-task education. There was no recess, no lunch, no social time. When
we moved to full day (between DS1 and DS2) suddenly there was recess,
social time, lunch together, and generally a much more relaxed and
engaging day. Given this scenario, I am firmly in favor of full-day
kindergarten!

FWIW, my kids had about 10 minutes/night of homework, M-Th only. Same
amount for both kids. It was entirely voabulary and phonics, meant to
reinforce what was taught during the day and also to let parents know
what the kids were doing in school.

Through 9 years of elementary school (adding both children together) NO
homework was given that had not already been taught in the classroom. I
didn't have to teach anything. And I think that's the only kind of
homework that there should be in elementary school -- work that
reinforces what has already been taught.

Now to set real limits on quantities ...

--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

Banty wrote:
In article , Cathy Kearns
says...


"Caledonia" wrote in message
ups.com...
I think no one is saying that sitting for 30 minutes to do stuff is far
too much to ask -- my perspective is that at K, a 5yo has already done
6 hours of this in school, and I'm more inclined to want a kid to spend
their afterschool time -- which for us, was probably about ~3 hours,
prior to dinner and reading and bed routines -- at that age 'doing
their own thing' (their own coloring, their own stories, reading and
being read to, playing, even) versus having another half-hour of
instruction.

In California kindergarten is mandated to be 3 hours and 20 minutes. Many
school districts can't offer more than that because they don't have the
classroom space. (They run two half day classes in each class room.) Our
district offers a full day (5.5 hour) kindergarten that is optional. If you
take the full day kindergarten you are at a different campus than you will
be in first grade, as all the full day kindergartens are at a campus set up
for only special programs. If you don't mind the half day kindergarten they
get to be at the same school they will be going to for grades 1-6. Yet
given the choice of half day or full day, most parents pick the full day.

Note, in this district homework is not allowed until second semester of 1st
grade, so this really has nothing to do with homework. Just an observation
that perhaps parents are the ones pushing more schooling.



Parents pick full day K because it's difficult for many to arrange to be home to
get the kids off the bus in the middle of the day. Working parents in
particular need the full day because it's usually difficult to find daycare to
patch in for the rest of the day.

I've never *bought* that argument because I can't figure out why its
supposed to be *easier* to get home to meet the school bus at 2:45 or 3
pm. At least around here, after school care isnt' available until
first grade. Either way, you've got time to fill in.

If there were an option, say, to do only two full Kindy days, and there were a
lot of daycares willing to take kids for the other three days, then you could
take a measure of whether or not parents are "pushing more schooling" by how
many sign up for all day K five times a week.

That doesn't work. Even if your assumption is correct (that people
prefer all day kindy b/c it fills in for daycare), you'd never be able
to separate people who opt for 5 day kindy because they believe its a
good idea from those who want free daycare.

The other point that people forget is that kindergarten today is in
large part what first grade was 20 years ago. When I was in (part-day)
kindergarten, we mostly played, and perhaps did some pre-reading and
pre-math skills. Now, many school districts expect kids to come out of
kindergarten reading and writing. Hence the longer day, the sitting at
a desk, and the homework.

Barbara

In article . com, Barbara
says...

Banty wrote:
In article , Cathy Kearns
says...


"Caledonia" wrote in message
ups.com...
I think no one is saying that sitting for 30 minutes to do stuff is far
too much to ask -- my perspective is that at K, a 5yo has already done
6 hours of this in school, and I'm more inclined to want a kid to spend
their afterschool time -- which for us, was probably about ~3 hours,
prior to dinner and reading and bed routines -- at that age 'doing
their own thing' (their own coloring, their own stories, reading and
being read to, playing, even) versus having another half-hour of
instruction.

In California kindergarten is mandated to be 3 hours and 20 minutes. Many
school districts can't offer more than that because they don't have the
classroom space. (They run two half day classes in each class room.) Our
district offers a full day (5.5 hour) kindergarten that is optional. If you
take the full day kindergarten you are at a different campus than you will
be in first grade, as all the full day kindergartens are at a campus set up
for only special programs. If you don't mind the half day kindergarten they
get to be at the same school they will be going to for grades 1-6. Yet
given the choice of half day or full day, most parents pick the full day.

Note, in this district homework is not allowed until second semester of 1st
grade, so this really has nothing to do with homework. Just an observation
that perhaps parents are the ones pushing more schooling.



Parents pick full day K because it's difficult for many to arrange to be home to
get the kids off the bus in the middle of the day. Working parents in
particular need the full day because it's usually difficult to find daycare to
patch in for the rest of the day.

I've never *bought* that argument because I can't figure out why its
supposed to be *easier* to get home to meet the school bus at 2:45 or 3
pm. At least around here, after school care isnt' available until
first grade. Either way, you've got time to fill in.

It's a lot easier to, for example, tag-team who working parents by having one
work from 7 to 3 to be home for the bus, while the other works from 9 to 5.
Also, afterschool care isn't limited to what the school offers! Many home
daycares, for example, will take afterschool kids, and this is harder to do with
a different schedule from other kids. Plus, from SAH parents, I've heard about
1/2 day K hours being more likely to run into naptimes and lunchtimes (youngers
have to go to the bus stop with the SAH parent) and breaking up useful time than
a longer K day. Many reasons why a short K day is harder to do.


If there were an option, say, to do only two full Kindy days, and there were a
lot of daycares willing to take kids for the other three days, then you could
take a measure of whether or not parents are "pushing more schooling" by how
many sign up for all day K five times a week.

That doesn't work. Even if your assumption is correct (that people
prefer all day kindy b/c it fills in for daycare), you'd never be able
to separate people who opt for 5 day kindy because they believe its a
good idea from those who want free daycare.

Read the above again. I said *IF* there was a common 2 day on 3 day off (for
the 5 day week) option offered, then who chooses that vs. 5 days on may give a
measure of whether or not the preference for full day kindy is really a matter
of wanting "more schooling". Of course that isn't offered anywhere, but it
would be some way to separate the two groups.


The other point that people forget is that kindergarten today is in
large part what first grade was 20 years ago. When I was in (part-day)
kindergarten, we mostly played, and perhaps did some pre-reading and
pre-math skills. Now, many school districts expect kids to come out of
kindergarten reading and writing. Hence the longer day, the sitting at
a desk, and the homework.

Sure. But how does that relate to the question of parents preferring fulls vs.
half day kindy?

Banty


--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm

"Beth Kevles" wrote in message
...

When our district had 1/2 day kindergarten, the entire 1/2 day was
on-task education. There was no recess, no lunch, no social time. When
we moved to full day (between DS1 and DS2) suddenly there was recess,
social time, lunch together, and generally a much more relaxed and
engaging day. Given this scenario, I am firmly in favor of full-day
kindergarten!

Yeah. DS is 1/2 day kindy and he only has 20 minutes in which to eat a
snack and then go play. It's 11:30 (we get there at 11:15) to 3pm, no
lunch. He's starving after school, because he doesn't want to eat a large
breakfast.

frank megaweege wrote:

The resulting griping represented laziness, selfishness and anti-social
attitudes that I see as a real threat public education.

Wow -- I always thought the real threat to public education was a lack
of funding, or conversely, wide disparities in funding based on school
districts....

I'm all for research based best practices and I realize there are many
inefficiencies in the way most kids are educated. But some of the
scenarios being talked about (eg. a third grader with 1.5 hours of
homework every night that you mentioned) sound outlandish, to the point
that I have a hard time believing they're prevelant in real life.

I know a local private school expects about 1.5 hours by 3rd grade --
we're not at that school; our school district is pretty mellow w/r/t
early elementary homework (although the double recess of K and 1st is
dropped in 2nd grade. Boo). The district (er, school) does 'well' by
test/matriculation measures but I'm not sure whether that's the school,
itself, or driven/confounded by the other variables of the residents
here (e.g., ESL status, median income, post-graduate education, time
spent volunteering in the school, etc.)

Right now I like that my child has homework. I feel it reinforces what
was learned in the classroom and begins to instill some structure and
discipline.

Eh, my child had minor homework in 1st grade (reading a book or two a
night, starting off with tiny books and moving on to more intense
books, along with a weekly assignment of writing 10 spelling words 2x).
I think the structure and discipline that she exhibits has very little
to do with her 1st g homework -- I think it's something imparted at
home in a myraid of ways.

It's also a way for me, as a parent, to be informed and
involved in what my child does at school.

I can see how this would be helpful; the generic work that DD1 did was
returned home every week, plus we have a squadron of parent volunteers
at the elementary level (I gave 1-1.5 hours/week, every week; given
that there were 2 people/day doing this, every weekday, I realize that
it's the equivalent of .5 additional FTEs per class). I saw the work
that came home, and rec'd monthly curriculum updates. Perhaps if the
work didn't come home, or if I weren't there every week I'd want a way
to be informed....

I see it as my responsiblity
to make sure that the assignments are approached in such a way that are
not counterproductive to these goals.

I have a slightly different tack re. my responsibility (as I'm sure you
could have guessed)...

Caledonia