first day of kindergarten and homework!

"frank megaweege" wrote in message
oups.com...
In my opinion the o.p. overreacted to a couple of assignments the first
week of school. Most likely things will settle down into a reasonable
routine.
The resulting griping represented laziness, selfishness and anti-social
attitudes that I see as a real threat public education.
I'm all for research based best practices and I realize there are many
inefficiencies in the way most kids are educated. But some of the
scenarios being talked about (eg. a third grader with 1.5 hours of
homework every night that you mentioned) sound outlandish, to the point
that I have a hard time believing they're prevelant in real life.

I've talked to some parents now and some third graders are doing 2 hours of
homework a night. It's supposed to be a maximum of 1.5 hours, but they
can't finish. Supposedly, if they don't finish by the maximum allotted
time, we can write a note for the child to get full credit, but if they
don't finish regularly, we have to meet with the teacher. I think if it
doesn't get resolved, we'd have to transfer out. So, instead of triggering
that cascade, parents just make their kids finish. If you don't believe it,
you don't know our school. I have spoken to enough parents (and one adult
former student) and lots of homework is the norm. I don't know about the
local school. I'll have to see what they are doing. So far, I know the
local school does assign about the same amount of homework DS is getting for
the younger grades.

Beth Kevles wrote:
When our district had 1/2 day kindergarten, the entire 1/2 day was
on-task education. There was no recess, no lunch, no social time. When
we moved to full day (between DS1 and DS2) suddenly there was recess,
social time, lunch together, and generally a much more relaxed and
engaging day. Given this scenario, I am firmly in favor of full-day
kindergarten!

This matches my experience. First grade was a bit of a downer for my
daughter, as she realized that they didn't have 'free play' time during
the day, only during their 2 recess periods.

Caledonia

Banty wrote:
In article . com, Barbara
says...

Banty wrote:
In article , Cathy Kearns
says...


"Caledonia" wrote in message
ups.com...
I think no one is saying that sitting for 30 minutes to do stuff is far
too much to ask -- my perspective is that at K, a 5yo has already done
6 hours of this in school, and I'm more inclined to want a kid to spend
their afterschool time -- which for us, was probably about ~3 hours,
prior to dinner and reading and bed routines -- at that age 'doing
their own thing' (their own coloring, their own stories, reading and
being read to, playing, even) versus having another half-hour of
instruction.

In California kindergarten is mandated to be 3 hours and 20 minutes. Many
school districts can't offer more than that because they don't have the
classroom space. (They run two half day classes in each class room.) Our
district offers a full day (5.5 hour) kindergarten that is optional. If you
take the full day kindergarten you are at a different campus than you will
be in first grade, as all the full day kindergartens are at a campus set up
for only special programs. If you don't mind the half day kindergarten they
get to be at the same school they will be going to for grades 1-6. Yet
given the choice of half day or full day, most parents pick the full day.

Note, in this district homework is not allowed until second semester of 1st
grade, so this really has nothing to do with homework. Just an observation
that perhaps parents are the ones pushing more schooling.



Parents pick full day K because it's difficult for many to arrange to be home to
get the kids off the bus in the middle of the day. Working parents in
particular need the full day because it's usually difficult to find daycare to
patch in for the rest of the day.

I've never *bought* that argument because I can't figure out why its
supposed to be *easier* to get home to meet the school bus at 2:45 or 3
pm. At least around here, after school care isnt' available until
first grade. Either way, you've got time to fill in.

It's a lot easier to, for example, tag-team who working parents by having one
work from 7 to 3 to be home for the bus, while the other works from 9 to 5.

I've heard of people via the net who were able to do that. I've never
met such a person in real life. Ergo I doubt its a viable option for
the vast, vast majority of working parents, and doubt its a driving
force behind the push for full-day kindergarten.

Also, afterschool care isn't limited to what the school offers! Many home
daycares, for example, will take afterschool kids, and this is harder to do with
a different schedule from other kids.

Many home daycares in our area are willing to take 1/2 day kids (in my
area, that's preschool, not kindergarten), but are reluctant to take
full day kids because it just takes up too much of their time and space
without enough financial return. There are, of course, other people
who run after school only programs.

Plus, from SAH parents, I've heard about
1/2 day K hours being more likely to run into naptimes and lunchtimes (youngers
have to go to the bus stop with the SAH parent) and breaking up useful time than
a longer K day. Many reasons why a short K day is harder to do.

I've heard those reasons as well. In fact, I think that's a major
reason why people prefer full day.

If there were an option, say, to do only two full Kindy days, and there were a
lot of daycares willing to take kids for the other three days, then you could
take a measure of whether or not parents are "pushing more schooling" by how
many sign up for all day K five times a week.

That doesn't work. Even if your assumption is correct (that people
prefer all day kindy b/c it fills in for daycare), you'd never be able
to separate people who opt for 5 day kindy because they believe its a
good idea from those who want free daycare.

Read the above again. I said *IF* there was a common 2 day on 3 day off (for
the 5 day week) option offered, then who chooses that vs. 5 days on may give a
measure of whether or not the preference for full day kindy is really a matter
of wanting "more schooling". Of course that isn't offered anywhere, but it
would be some way to separate the two groups.

I have a better idea. YOU read what I said. Someone who is looking for
*free* daycare is going to take the 5 day option. Someone who likes 5
day kindergarten is going to take the 5 day option. How are you going
to differentiate between the groups? Unless, of course, you're
supposing that the 3 days are *free* which seems highly unlikely.


The other point that people forget is that kindergarten today is in
large part what first grade was 20 years ago. When I was in (part-day)
kindergarten, we mostly played, and perhaps did some pre-reading and
pre-math skills. Now, many school districts expect kids to come out of
kindergarten reading and writing. Hence the longer day, the sitting at
a desk, and the homework.

Sure. But how does that relate to the question of parents preferring fulls vs.
half day kindy?

It doesn't. It relates to the suggestion that it is parents who want
free daycare who are pushing full-day kindergarten. I disagree. I
think the driving force is the increased academics in kindy (which I
think is a rotten idea).

Barbara

In article om, Barbara
says...

Banty wrote:
In article . com, Barbara
says...

Banty wrote:
In article , Cathy Kearns
says...


"Caledonia" wrote in message
ups.com...
I think no one is saying that sitting for 30 minutes to do stuff is far
too much to ask -- my perspective is that at K, a 5yo has already done
6 hours of this in school, and I'm more inclined to want a kid to spend
their afterschool time -- which for us, was probably about ~3 hours,
prior to dinner and reading and bed routines -- at that age 'doing
their own thing' (their own coloring, their own stories, reading and
being read to, playing, even) versus having another half-hour of
instruction.

In California kindergarten is mandated to be 3 hours and 20 minutes. Many
school districts can't offer more than that because they don't have the
classroom space. (They run two half day classes in each class room.) Our
district offers a full day (5.5 hour) kindergarten that is optional. If you
take the full day kindergarten you are at a different campus than you will
be in first grade, as all the full day kindergartens are at a campus set up
for only special programs. If you don't mind the half day kindergarten they
get to be at the same school they will be going to for grades 1-6. Yet
given the choice of half day or full day, most parents pick the full day.

Note, in this district homework is not allowed until second semester of 1st
grade, so this really has nothing to do with homework. Just an observation
that perhaps parents are the ones pushing more schooling.



Parents pick full day K because it's difficult for many to arrange to be home
to
get the kids off the bus in the middle of the day. Working parents in
particular need the full day because it's usually difficult to find daycare to
patch in for the rest of the day.

I've never *bought* that argument because I can't figure out why its
supposed to be *easier* to get home to meet the school bus at 2:45 or 3
pm. At least around here, after school care isnt' available until
first grade. Either way, you've got time to fill in.

It's a lot easier to, for example, tag-team who working parents by having one
work from 7 to 3 to be home for the bus, while the other works from 9 to 5.

I've heard of people via the net who were able to do that. I've never
met such a person in real life. Ergo I doubt its a viable option for
the vast, vast majority of working parents, and doubt its a driving
force behind the push for full-day kindergarten.

*Many* people I work with do that. Maybe it helps to have a prominent corporate
employer. But people not working for my firm, who are in the trades, do it too.


Also, afterschool care isn't limited to what the school offers! Many home
daycares, for example, will take afterschool kids, and this is harder to do with
a different schedule from other kids.

Many home daycares in our area are willing to take 1/2 day kids (in my
area, that's preschool, not kindergarten), but are reluctant to take
full day kids because it just takes up too much of their time and space
without enough financial return. There are, of course, other people
who run after school only programs.

Plus, from SAH parents, I've heard about
1/2 day K hours being more likely to run into naptimes and lunchtimes (youngers
have to go to the bus stop with the SAH parent) and breaking up useful time than
a longer K day. Many reasons why a short K day is harder to do.

I've heard those reasons as well. In fact, I think that's a major
reason why people prefer full day.

If there were an option, say, to do only two full Kindy days, and there were a
lot of daycares willing to take kids for the other three days, then you could
take a measure of whether or not parents are "pushing more schooling" by how
many sign up for all day K five times a week.

That doesn't work. Even if your assumption is correct (that people
prefer all day kindy b/c it fills in for daycare), you'd never be able
to separate people who opt for 5 day kindy because they believe its a
good idea from those who want free daycare.

Read the above again. I said *IF* there was a common 2 day on 3 day off (for
the 5 day week) option offered, then who chooses that vs. 5 days on may give a
measure of whether or not the preference for full day kindy is really a matter
of wanting "more schooling". Of course that isn't offered anywhere, but it
would be some way to separate the two groups.

I have a better idea. YOU read what I said. Someone who is looking for
*free* daycare is going to take the 5 day option. Someone who likes 5
day kindergarten is going to take the 5 day option. How are you going
to differentiate between the groups? Unless, of course, you're
supposing that the 3 days are *free* which seems highly unlikely.

Well, there's never going to be a *perfect* comparison. But, for half-day
kinder, a lot of families can't swing it no matter how much they're willing to
shell out for some kind of daycare option. Indeed, that's why private kinders
are fairly common in my school district, which does only offer 1/2 day kinder.
So folks need to pay for a full time private school to not have to deal with
1/2 day kinder. That's why I sent my son to a Montessori school for
kindergarten. I *was* willing to see how they worked out for perhaps his whole
primary education (it didn't suit him well), but I pretty much had to find some
private kindergarten option.



The other point that people forget is that kindergarten today is in
large part what first grade was 20 years ago. When I was in (part-day)
kindergarten, we mostly played, and perhaps did some pre-reading and
pre-math skills. Now, many school districts expect kids to come out of
kindergarten reading and writing. Hence the longer day, the sitting at
a desk, and the homework.

Sure. But how does that relate to the question of parents preferring fulls vs.
half day kindy?

It doesn't. It relates to the suggestion that it is parents who want
free daycare who are pushing full-day kindergarten. I disagree. I
think the driving force is the increased academics in kindy (which I
think is a rotten idea).

Oh, I agree that there are reasons other than daycare to want full-day
kindergarten. I was only pointing out that one can't take the preferential
enrollment in full-day kindergarten to prove to what extent parents think so.

Banty


--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm

frank megaweege wrote:

In my opinion the o.p. overreacted to a couple of assignments the first
week of school. Most likely things will settle down into a reasonable
routine.

Why would you assume that when she had to sign
a homework policy that said kindergarteners were expected
to do a half hour a night and 3rd graders were expected
to do 1.5 hours a night? Sounds to me like they said
what they meant and meant what they said.

The resulting griping represented laziness, selfishness and anti-social
attitudes that I see as a real threat public education.

Huh? I don't think it is in *any* way lazy to
think that children shouldn't be doing that much homework.
For example, good luck getting your 3rd grader to do regular
chores around the house with a homework load like that,
at least during the week. There won't be time for him
to help out with the dishes. There are many other good,
valuable things that get sacrificed to this level of
homework.

I'm all for research based best practices and I realize there are many
inefficiencies in the way most kids are educated. But some of the
scenarios being talked about (eg. a third grader with 1.5 hours of
homework every night that you mentioned) sound outlandish, to the point
that I have a hard time believing they're prevelant in real life.

Why would you say that? I've HAD 3rd graders with
that much homework, and the OP had to sign a statement
saying the expectation was that much homework. You may
be fortunate that this is not the case in your neck of
the woods, but I can assure you that it happens in other
places. Do you think we are lying about that?

Right now I like that my child has homework. I feel it reinforces what
was learned in the classroom and begins to instill some structure and
discipline.

No one's knocking an *appropriate* level of homework.
It's just not a situation where a little being good means
that a lot is better.

It's also a way for me, as a parent, to be informed and
involved in what my child does at school. I see it as my responsiblity
to make sure that the assignments are approached in such a way that are
not counterproductive to these goals.

If you should ever find yourself in a situation
where your child is being given an unreasonable amount of
homework, you will find that your options to make the
situation productive are very limited. I'll certainly
hope you don't get there, but it happens to some of us
and it isn't pretty.

Best wishes,
Ericka

toypup wrote:
"frank megaweege" wrote in message
oups.com...
In my opinion the o.p. overreacted to a couple of assignments the first
week of school. Most likely things will settle down into a reasonable
routine.
The resulting griping represented laziness, selfishness and anti-social
attitudes that I see as a real threat public education.
I'm all for research based best practices and I realize there are many
inefficiencies in the way most kids are educated. But some of the
scenarios being talked about (eg. a third grader with 1.5 hours of
homework every night that you mentioned) sound outlandish, to the point
that I have a hard time believing they're prevelant in real life.

I've talked to some parents now and some third graders are doing 2 hours of
homework a night. It's supposed to be a maximum of 1.5 hours, but they
can't finish. Supposedly, if they don't finish by the maximum allotted
time, we can write a note for the child to get full credit, but if they
don't finish regularly, we have to meet with the teacher. I think if it
doesn't get resolved, we'd have to transfer out. So, instead of triggering
that cascade, parents just make their kids finish. If you don't believe it,
you don't know our school. I have spoken to enough parents (and one adult
former student) and lots of homework is the norm. I don't know about the
local school. I'll have to see what they are doing. So far, I know the
local school does assign about the same amount of homework DS is getting for
the younger grades.

It seems to me that in the long run, you're going to have 3 options:

(i) live with it;

(ii) conclude that this program is not right for you or your child,
and move him to the local school (where at the very least you won't
have signed a *contract*);

(iii) organize the parents to suggest a change in the program; at the
very least, when the kids get older, try to get all of the parents to
limit homework time to the max agreed to, since its unlikely they can
or will throw *everyone* out.

As I've suggested before, though, give it some time before you make a
decision. Last week's homework seemed very goal-oriented to me
(creating a face book); it may slow down. Also, at the beginning of
the year, kids tend to be slower (coming off vacation), and teachers
are just feeling out what the class can do and how long it takes.
Things could improve.

Barbara

"toypup" wrote:
"Beth Kevles" wrote in message
...

When our district had 1/2 day kindergarten, the entire 1/2 day was
on-task education. There was no recess, no lunch, no social time. When
we moved to full day (between DS1 and DS2) suddenly there was recess,
social time, lunch together, and generally a much more relaxed and
engaging day. Given this scenario, I am firmly in favor of full-day
kindergarten!

Yeah. DS is 1/2 day kindy and he only has 20 minutes in which to eat a
snack and then go play. It's 11:30 (we get there at 11:15) to 3pm, no
lunch. He's starving after school, because he doesn't want to eat a large
breakfast.

Why not an early lunch - i.e. before he goes?

Banty wrote:

In article om, Barbara
says...

Banty wrote:

It's a lot easier to, for example, tag-team who working parents by having one
work from 7 to 3 to be home for the bus, while the other works from 9 to 5.

I've heard of people via the net who were able to do that. I've never
met such a person in real life. Ergo I doubt its a viable option for
the vast, vast majority of working parents, and doubt its a driving
force behind the push for full-day kindergarten.

*Many* people I work with do that. Maybe it helps to have a prominent corporate
employer. But people not working for my firm, who are in the trades, do it too.

My dd#1 does it and has done it for many years (because her youngest
is now 13 years old, and she did it when his older siblings (now 26
and 24) were in a parochial HS with no transportation. Her dh got the
kids off to school, and/or the older kids had a carpool to HS. She
was at work before 6 a.m., and would leave at 2 and do the evening
carpool. She and her dh work for the government.

DD#2 knows a couple who are both air traffic controllers, and they
work different shifts specifically so that one of them can always be
there for the kids.

My dh also worked 2nd shift, but that was so he could take college
classes in the morning.

In dd#2s own case, kindy was half day in a parochial school which had
no transportation, so she had a nanny up to the time her youngest was
in first grade. But she's an airline pilot, and her hours are quite
irregular, and her husband's hours are regular office hours.

My niece has daycare at her employer's, and her dh also has a somewhat
flexible work schedule so many times he takes care of the kids.

Neither my dh (who was in the Navy) nor I could have done anything
like this, but I didn't WOH until my oldest child was in HS. And when
I first started to work, I was a teacher. DS was in grade school, and
he walked to a daycare place after school (right next door to the
school) until I was able to go and get him.

"Barbara" wrote in message
oups.com...
It seems to me that in the long run, you're going to have 3 options:

(i) live with it;

(ii) conclude that this program is not right for you or your child,
and move him to the local school (where at the very least you won't
have signed a *contract*);

(iii) organize the parents to suggest a change in the program; at the
very least, when the kids get older, try to get all of the parents to
limit homework time to the max agreed to, since its unlikely they can
or will throw *everyone* out.

Yeah, it's like I said, I'm going to wait out the year before making any
decisions. It hasn't been very long, but DS seems to be thriving in their
very structured program. It is actually so structured that I wouldn't have
liked it for myself, but he loves structure, more than the average kid.
That part fits him to a T.

As far as the homework, for now, we are able to split half of it up for
before and after school. It's really not so daunting that way. The problem
may come in first grade, when it's full day and then homework. We'll see.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"toypup" wrote:
"Beth Kevles" wrote in message
...

When our district had 1/2 day kindergarten, the entire 1/2 day was
on-task education. There was no recess, no lunch, no social time. When
we moved to full day (between DS1 and DS2) suddenly there was recess,
social time, lunch together, and generally a much more relaxed and
engaging day. Given this scenario, I am firmly in favor of full-day
kindergarten!

Yeah. DS is 1/2 day kindy and he only has 20 minutes in which to eat a
snack and then go play. It's 11:30 (we get there at 11:15) to 3pm, no
lunch. He's starving after school, because he doesn't want to eat a large
breakfast.

Why not an early lunch - i.e. before he goes?

That's 10:00 for us, so I call it a big breakfast, but we have pizza and
other lunch foods. It has to be 10 am, because it takes him a long time to
eat. We finish at 11 am and then go drop off DD and then DS. Today, he had
a small pizza at 10:30. He's still hungry by 3pm. Could be all the
steroids he's been on. Those really give him an appetite. Without
steroids, he can go a whole day without eating.