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#91
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How to stop the night wakings?
In article ,
cjra says... On Mar 14, 2:49 pm, Banty wrote: In article , Jamie Clark says... "Banty" wrote in message ... In article , cjra says... On Mar 14, 9:12 am, Ericka Kammerer wrote: cjra wrote: On Mar 14, 6:53 am, "deja.blues" wrote: "cjra" wrote in message ... On Mar 13, 5:03 pm, "lu-lu" wrote: "cjra" wrote in message btw - it's not that I'm making excuses, it's just that I'm trying to not do a bunch of different things that require substantial effort and lifestyle change in the hope that _one_ works. Many things we have tried, and now I'll just take it one by one and see how it goes. ??????? It sounds like great change and effort is exactly what you need to do. I mean like going to the effort of moving the large awkward difficult to move bed into another room temporarily in the hopes that it will make a difference. Any possibility of making the other bed more comfortable? A better mattress or mattress topper or some such thing? Sure. We could lay out the cash for a new bed instead of on construction materials for DD's room. But as I said, I really don't want to go to such major extremes when it's a temporary fix which very well may not work. A mattress or mattress topper. She suggested a mattress or mattress topper. Not a whole bed. When talking about mattresses, I refer to them as beds as well. So I understood her to mean that she couldn't afford/didn't want to spend that much money on a new bed/mattress. A new mattress can run a few thousand dollars, so it's not a minor thing. Even a mattress pad or topper can be a few hundred for a really good one. And if her dh is as picky as I am, you can't just throw a $30 pad on top of a bed that you consider to be uncomfortable -- it just doesn't do anything. This is where I'm beginning to think you're discarding ideas too fast, looking for some magic fix. With this, you might as well just put up with it until the house remod is done. Because you need to be of a mind to be giving any option a chance to work, and how it will be when all the work is done on the house is the only way you seem to really be able to envision things finally working. Sometimes muddling through is the only thing that people seem to be able to get to work. For whatever reason. And it *is* an option. Folks here are trying to come up with *better* options for you, but it is an option. Banty I totally understand where she is coming from. She wants to start small and simple and work up to the bigger possible solutions. As she said, it's like going for brain surgery for a headache, or burning down your house to kill a rat. Yes, it might solve the problem, but so would several other less extreme measures. Obviously you want to solve the problem with the easiest/fastest solution if at all possible. I'm sure if she discovers that the easy solutions don't work, she'll keep trying other things until she gets to the more difficult ones. OK, thats fine. It's just that when there are sooo many limits placed on a problem, it may never converge to a solution. Blame the engineer in me. Not only are there things about the people involved being sensitive to various things (not criticizing) that limit the options, theres all kinds of limits on cost, effort, 'consumerism', etc. etc. I understand wanting to go for the simplest effective solution. But one needs to give the problem enough latitude to actually be able to *have* an effective solution at all! I'm guessing you missed the first 20-30 or so posts in this thread, where a number of solutions were offered and discussed, and I said I was going to try some of them for a certain length of time to see how they worked. Some I've already tried and they didn't work, so I'm on to the next step. or they worked for awhile but now no longer. I rejected other solutions as not feasible or just simply more extreme than I felt was warranted initially. Those rejected solutions are what led to more extreme options. The perfectly feasible and realistic options are in the works. I think that's sufficient latitude. I *have* been reading. Just not commenting as I didnt have the same issue. But I think there is some reaching for the simple, but likely ineffective going on. Like the failed dieter saying "i tried this; i tried that...."... If you can't see all the messages on your newsreader, try reading through google groups, as then you can see all the messages and you'll find all the ones where we discussed those things I'm about to try. If you don't feel like reading all the messages I can't blame you, but you must also understand that if you jump into a discussion late, you can't draw any conclusions as you've missed a lot. Oh thank you very much :-/, after 15 years on Usenet without you I would have had no clue how to read a newsgroup. Which is when I say, if everything's so hard, consider just staying the way things are since at least when the house is done things should settle down. There's a natural time limit to the problem, so maybe sheer endurance is the solution. But everything is not so hard. I never said it was. There were plenty of suggestions that were quite simple. Others took those a step further to offer what they felt were simple suggestions, but in our situation were not. I simply expained why those suggestions were not realistic at this time. I haven't rejected the simpler suggestions at all. Now, myself as a mom who was single from the beginning and bought a house when my son was 18 months old, I had the house remods done a little at a time, so as to not corner myself with this kind of grand undertaking. Good for you. Our house was not livable when we purchased it. We tore it down to the studs. We rented for about 6 months, but could no longer afford to pay a mortgage and rent and made the house livable. We are working on it one room at a time, in the midst of having a family. There are a variety of reasons why we chose the house we did, in the circumstances we had. I have yet to complain about the house and am not 'blaming' it for my daughter's sleep issues. I described it up only because the suggestions some had didn't fit with our current housing circumstances and it was clear from some responses that folks didn't quite understand the type of housing situation we were in. Well, getting a pretty much livable house, although a fixer, would have been easier (but I'm sure you'll list your reasons why you couldn't do *that*). But that's water under the bridge. I'm guessing you just underestimated the amount of upheaval all the remod would be. But that's just human. All I'm saying is.. maybe the bottom line of all this is that, between changes you can't, or won't, do, it doesnt really in the end matter all that much which is which, and you can maybe just hold on until the house is all done. Banty |
#92
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How to stop the night wakings?
"cjra" wrote in message ... On Mar 14, 2:49 pm, Banty wrote: In article , Jamie Clark says... Not only are there things about the people involved being sensitive to various things (not criticizing) that limit the options, theres all kinds of limits on cost, effort, 'consumerism', etc. etc. I understand wanting to go for the simplest effective solution. But one needs to give the problem enough latitude to actually be able to *have* an effective solution at all! I'm guessing you missed the first 20-30 or so posts in this thread, where a number of solutions were offered and discussed, and I said I was going to try some of them for a certain length of time to see how they worked. Some I've already tried and they didn't work, so I'm on to the next step. or they worked for awhile but now no longer. I rejected other solutions as not feasible or just simply more extreme than I felt was warranted initially. Those rejected solutions are what led to more extreme options. The perfectly feasible and realistic options are in the works. I think that's sufficient latitude. If you can't see all the messages on your newsreader, try reading through google groups, as then you can see all the messages and you'll find all the ones where we discussed those things I'm about to try. If you don't feel like reading all the messages I can't blame you, but you must also understand that if you jump into a discussion late, you can't draw any conclusions as you've missed a lot. I think the only reason options appeared to become extreme was that they were offered to help resolve simpler situations that apparently couldn't be used. For example, you and DH can't share a room at the moment as DD's in there and you want to sleep.. DD can't move in to your room due to the lack of doors. Therefore, it was suggested DH and you sleep in your room, but due to you not wanting to move the beds at the moment, it was suggested you get a mattress topper as a tempory solution to aid DH's back. This isn't me saying you're rejecting all ideas, it's me trying to explain why the ideas appeared to have escalated. At the start of the thread, no one was saying that you should buy DH a new mattress etc, those ideas only came about later when others were said to be unfeasable. The bigger ideas only came about to help you acheive the simpler ones - i.e., DD sleeping in a room of her own in a house that's not ready yet, as you said you felt like it was teasing her to have her crib in your room. Not sleeping well until the completion is due in september seems like a long time to be tired to me. Whatever you decide to do, I hope you all get a night's sleep soon! Lucy x |
#93
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How to stop the night wakings?
On Mar 14, 5:03 am, "Linda" wrote:
"Anne Rogers" wrote in message . .. Not unless we win the lottery and can pay someone to do it. We scheduled out every weekend based on what needs to be done, and came up with a September end date. No other rooms are 'complete' except our bedroom. I think you're stuck between a rock and a hard place here, I honestly think that to both continue nursing and cosleeping and also sleep through the night is a VERY hard task, something that I cannot recall a single person I've come across having done it (that could be because if it was easy and not a problem it doesn't get mentioned). I know plenty of people who nursed toddlers and had them sleeping through the night in a separate room and I also know of non nursing cosleeping though the night toddlers - I've had one of each myself! This is what we did. DD still sleeps with us and is now just over 2. At around 18 months or so I was sick of her waking to feed, often 2 or 3 times a night (and we were wanting to try for another child and my period hadn't returned yet) , so I'd suggest she just have a cuddle first, and if she still wanted to nurse afterwards she could. She would still nurse to sleep at that point, and I introduced it by saying let's just have a cuddle, and then she can nurse. Then when she would wake in the night and want to nurse I would do the same thing - the first few nights she woke, and I didn't nurse her straight away she cried and I told her I was just going to cuddle her first and then she could nurse - which I did. After a few days she accepted it and it wasn't long before she woke up, cuddled and went straight back to sleep without nursing at all. Then when she woke up after that time I would say - "No, you don't nurse in the middle of the night!! (Like it was a funny thing to want) - How about a cuddle, or a sip of water?" And she would be fine, and pretty much after that time she started sleeping through without a problem. HTH Yeah, I think this is part of the problem. When I first moved out of the room, about 14 months, it took a few days but she started sleeping longer stretched and eventually got to 9-10 hour stretches almost consistently. She she'd stopped nursing during the night, but would nurse when she woke up and before sleeping. All was well. I didn't even have to go through the whole 'you don't want to nurse' thing - I wasn't there so she didn't notice. Well, she did try to nurse DH a few times, but she quickly learned that didn't work and fell back to sleep. Then she got sick, would eat or drink *nothing* and I nursed her like a newborn...she got better fairly quickly, at least over the worst, and her appetite did come back, but not to quite the same level. She developed a sinus infection around that time, which improved with antibiotics and then we were travelling and again nursing more than normal. This got compounded by a short hospital stay by me, and DH started giving her milk again at night because it usually worked to help her sleep, but eventually that turned into her waking up for it. Since then things haven't been as consistent as they should have been. I've gone in to nurse her a number of times, because she'll scream like she's in pain or desperate, but I realize now it's just that she's smart ;-) So I think you're right in that we really need to decide no nursing at night at all, and no milk from Papa either and just be prepared to stick it out a lot longer this time. What I noticed last night is that even though she's not nursing, she's touching me. She'll doze off, I even hear snoring. I inch away (I can't sleep that close anymore) and as soon as I move away, no matter how gentle, she sits up and yells. Stinker. |
#94
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How to stop the night wakings?
On Mar 14, 3:20 pm, Banty wrote:
OK, thats fine. It's just that when there are sooo many limits placed on a problem, it may never converge to a solution. Blame the engineer in me. Not only are there things about the people involved being sensitive to various things (not criticizing) that limit the options, theres all kinds of limits on cost, effort, 'consumerism', etc. etc. I understand wanting to go for the simplest effective solution. But one needs to give the problem enough latitude to actually be able to *have* an effective solution at all! I'm guessing you missed the first 20-30 or so posts in this thread, where a number of solutions were offered and discussed, and I said I was going to try some of them for a certain length of time to see how they worked. Some I've already tried and they didn't work, so I'm on to the next step. or they worked for awhile but now no longer. I rejected other solutions as not feasible or just simply more extreme than I felt was warranted initially. Those rejected solutions are what led to more extreme options. The perfectly feasible and realistic options are in the works. I think that's sufficient latitude. I *have* been reading. Just not commenting as I didnt have the same issue. But I think there is some reaching for the simple, but likely ineffective going on. Like the failed dieter saying "i tried this; i tried that...."... Then you're wilfully ignoring quite a lot of responses where I specifically said "I will try that." Well, getting a pretty much livable house, although a fixer, would have been easier (but I'm sure you'll list your reasons why you couldn't do *that*). That's not the topic for discussion. We had reasons for our choice, which as I've said are not really relevant here. We're happy with our choice. The situation just is as it is, and it's different than it would be for someone with a new house. Ok. It's hard for many to picture the layout or circumstances if it's not something they've ever experienced. But that's water under the bridge. I'm guessing you just underestimated the amount of upheaval all the remod would be. But that's just human. Yes and no. We've both done/lived in houses throughout renovations before (my parents' house took about 15 years), and we'd looked at about 10-15 houses over a year before settling on this one. We did know how much work was involved, but we did underestimate the time, and we've made some mistakes along the way with certain contractors. We also wrongly assumed we could do much more when DD was born than we've been able to. All I'm saying is.. maybe the bottom line of all this is that, between changes you can't, or won't, do, it doesnt really in the end matter all that much which is which, and you can maybe just hold on until the house is all done. Maybe. I liked many of the suggestions offered which can be addressed immediately without major structural changes to our household (moving the crib next to the bed, removing the arms of it, not nursing, for example are all things first on the list). As I've said, too many times to count, if these steps don't work after a reasonable amount of time, we go to the next step. |
#95
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How to stop the night wakings?
On Mar 14, 3:25 pm, "lu-lu" wrote:
"cjra" wrote in message ... On Mar 14, 2:49 pm, Banty wrote: In article , Jamie Clark says... Not only are there things about the people involved being sensitive to various things (not criticizing) that limit the options, theres all kinds of limits on cost, effort, 'consumerism', etc. etc. I understand wanting to go for the simplest effective solution. But one needs to give the problem enough latitude to actually be able to *have* an effective solution at all! I'm guessing you missed the first 20-30 or so posts in this thread, where a number of solutions were offered and discussed, and I said I was going to try some of them for a certain length of time to see how they worked. Some I've already tried and they didn't work, so I'm on to the next step. or they worked for awhile but now no longer. I rejected other solutions as not feasible or just simply more extreme than I felt was warranted initially. Those rejected solutions are what led to more extreme options. The perfectly feasible and realistic options are in the works. I think that's sufficient latitude. If you can't see all the messages on your newsreader, try reading through google groups, as then you can see all the messages and you'll find all the ones where we discussed those things I'm about to try. If you don't feel like reading all the messages I can't blame you, but you must also understand that if you jump into a discussion late, you can't draw any conclusions as you've missed a lot. I think the only reason options appeared to become extreme was that they were offered to help resolve simpler situations that apparently couldn't be used. For example, you and DH can't share a room at the moment as DD's in there and you want to sleep.. I guess I wasn't clear enough early on. So let me clarify now: I chose to sleep in another room because for some months that seemed to help DD sleep. It's not now. The situation we're currently faced with is that she must sleep in this particular room. I don't know if DH being there is a problem or not. I know my being there is potentially problematic. I'm trying to figure out how I can still have her in that room, with DH, and sleep. Some suggestions have been very helpful, and we're trying them. I certainly haven't said all the situations suggested can't be used! |
#96
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How to stop the night wakings?
In article ,
cjra says... On Mar 14, 3:20 pm, Banty wrote: OK, thats fine. It's just that when there are sooo many limits placed on a problem, it may never converge to a solution. Blame the engineer in me. Not only are there things about the people involved being sensitive to various things (not criticizing) that limit the options, theres all kinds of limits on cost, effort, 'consumerism', etc. etc. I understand wanting to go for the simplest effective solution. But one needs to give the problem enough latitude to actually be able to *have* an effective solution at all! I'm guessing you missed the first 20-30 or so posts in this thread, where a number of solutions were offered and discussed, and I said I was going to try some of them for a certain length of time to see how they worked. Some I've already tried and they didn't work, so I'm on to the next step. or they worked for awhile but now no longer. I rejected other solutions as not feasible or just simply more extreme than I felt was warranted initially. Those rejected solutions are what led to more extreme options. The perfectly feasible and realistic options are in the works. I think that's sufficient latitude. I *have* been reading. Just not commenting as I didnt have the same issue. But I think there is some reaching for the simple, but likely ineffective going on. Like the failed dieter saying "i tried this; i tried that...."... Then you're wilfully ignoring quite a lot of responses where I specifically said "I will try that." For all of two days... I think that your solution will probably have to come in some combination of conditioning her (crying it out or similar), which will take some sheer will and consistency, and getting yourselves set up more ideally as far as bedroom separation and doors and beds and so on. Which you don't have access to right now. You can try moving the crib and stuff like that - it's what we call in problem solving "low hanging fruit". But it often doesn't get at the cause - they're the cheap things that might work on an off-chance. Not saying you shouldn't try it first Well, getting a pretty much livable house, although a fixer, would have been easier (but I'm sure you'll list your reasons why you couldn't do *that*). That's not the topic for discussion. We had reasons for our choice, which as I've said are not really relevant here. We're happy with our choice. The situation just is as it is, and it's different than it would be for someone with a new house. Ok. It's hard for many to picture the layout or circumstances if it's not something they've ever experienced. That's what I said (below) - it is what it is. But that's water under the bridge. I'm guessing you just underestimated the amount of upheaval all the remod would be. But that's just human. Yes and no. We've both done/lived in houses throughout renovations before (my parents' house took about 15 years), and we'd looked at about 10-15 houses over a year before settling on this one. We did know how much work was involved, but we did underestimate the time, and we've made some mistakes along the way with certain contractors. We also wrongly assumed we could do much more when DD was born than we've been able to. Yep. That's all I'm saying. It's human. *Everyone* underestimates that stuff. Yes, even those who have done it before. All I'm saying is.. maybe the bottom line of all this is that, between changes you can't, or won't, do, it doesnt really in the end matter all that much which is which, and you can maybe just hold on until the house is all done. Maybe. I liked many of the suggestions offered which can be addressed immediately without major structural changes to our household (moving the crib next to the bed, removing the arms of it, not nursing, for example are all things first on the list). As I've said, too many times to count, if these steps don't work after a reasonable amount of time, we go to the next step. OK. Good luck. Banty |
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The PLAN How to stop the night wakings?
Thanks to all for your helpful suggestions. After discussing various
options with DH, here's what we're going to do for at least 10 days. Pantley claims 10 days, if at that point it's not working, we'll reevaluate and if it looks like we're making progress, we'll try another 10 days. If not at all, then we'll re-think it. *keep DD in our room where she is now *take the arms off the crib (it converts to a toddler bed) *move the crib right next to our bed *when she wakes, not pick her up, not nurse her, but try to soothe her back to sleep with pats on the back. This may require me to have an arm on her for awhile. *if she gets to screaming stage I might sit with her or walk to calm her down, though I'm not sure if this will throw things out of whack or not *make sure as much as is possible that she's well fed before dinner (although we always try this, some nights she just won't eat) *keep a consistent bedtime of 7:30 *keep the bath at night for now, since overall that works best - it's not every night, more like every 3rd, but if it appears that the bath is winding her up, we'll change that *offer her only water if she does wake up *On nursing to sleep, I think I will still nurse her, but do it sitting up and then lay her down awake rather than nursing laying down to sleep on the bed as we do now. She fights this already, but I'll be tough. I'm holding off on the white noise for now as DH is unwilling to move beds at the moment and that's not yet a battle I feel I need to fight. If we're making no progress with all of the above, I may insist upon it for at least a few nights and try a fan in the room (and he can either move rooms or tolerate the fan. He is getting to desperation stage but he's not quite there yet). If after a month or so we're nowhere near close to sleeping longer stretches, I'll see if it seems our presence is the problem, and then we'll move to another room and I'll fight the battle with DH on the bed. I won't be buying a new mattress. We won't be buying a new house with lots of rooms ;-) I'm also not inclined to do a lot of work on another room as a temporary solution since every weekend doing that is a weekend away from working on DD's room, which is the priority (we have too much experience of starting our priority project, only to have another project come up requiring our immediate attention and then everything else gets pushed back another month). I've decided we'll tolerate the night wakings or resort to CIO at that point if we have to. Thanks again for all your suggestions. I really appreciate the help. I've decided for my next child, I'm ordering a sleeper, with a really calm personality ;-) |
#98
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How to stop the night wakings?
On Mar 14, 4:03 pm, Banty wrote:
In article , cjra says... On Mar 14, 3:20 pm, Banty wrote: OK, thats fine. It's just that when there are sooo many limits placed on a problem, it may never converge to a solution. Blame the engineer in me. Not only are there things about the people involved being sensitive to various things (not criticizing) that limit the options, theres all kinds of limits on cost, effort, 'consumerism', etc. etc. I understand wanting to go for the simplest effective solution. But one needs to give the problem enough latitude to actually be able to *have* an effective solution at all! I'm guessing you missed the first 20-30 or so posts in this thread, where a number of solutions were offered and discussed, and I said I was going to try some of them for a certain length of time to see how they worked. Some I've already tried and they didn't work, so I'm on to the next step. or they worked for awhile but now no longer. I rejected other solutions as not feasible or just simply more extreme than I felt was warranted initially. Those rejected solutions are what led to more extreme options. The perfectly feasible and realistic options are in the works. I think that's sufficient latitude. I *have* been reading. Just not commenting as I didnt have the same issue. But I think there is some reaching for the simple, but likely ineffective going on. Like the failed dieter saying "i tried this; i tried that...."... Then you're wilfully ignoring quite a lot of responses where I specifically said "I will try that." For all of two days... ???I said I was only going to try these solutions for two days? If so, that's not what I meant. I was originally thinking a week. Ann and Sue both discussed 21 days as optimum. Elizabeth Pantley says 10 days. We'll start there and see where we are then. I'm not following. |
#99
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How to stop the night wakings?
Thanks for this reassurance, everyone always blames co-sleeping, but we would not have survived the first year if we didn't co-sleep.She reverse cycled at 12 weeks, and that was that. And there are certainly people who co-sleep with non-nursing older kids without much trouble. I've always struggled with having a child in the bed, so cosleeping never meant getting more sleep, though it may have suited DS. He weaned when I fell pregnant, we then moved to Korea, he had never been a good sleeper, but at home had been mostly in his own bed in his own room. It ended up that the vast majority of the time he shared a bed with dad and slept through whilst I slept by myself. Co sleeping was what made him sleep through, not the opposite, if DH didn't go and join him when he went to bed, DS would wake up in the middle of the night and end up in our bed. We discovered that this was entirely normal in that culture. One time, I had to go the the ER and a friend came to take DS once it got late and I wasn't going anywhere, he took DS to bed with him - in the UK or the US we'd freak about paedaphilia, but it didn't occur to this chap that it was even worth attempting to do anything different. Anne |
#100
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How to stop the night wakings?
On Mar 13, 7:59 am, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
cjra wrote: On Mar 12, 10:12 pm, "Nikki" wrote: We start bedtime at 7pm. If it's bath night that adds in another 15 minutes or so. This may be another issue, but I'm not sure as it's not consistent. bath time = play time for her. She goes nuts in the bath, it's not really relaxing. However it doesn't seem to have an effect either way on the falling to sleep. You might try moving bath time to another time, then. That may be tricky with your schedules, but maybe there's another time that would suit. We've considered trying the bath as soon as we get home. Maybe a solution, though now it's so nice out she's enjoying running around outside when we get home! Generally we're in bed by 7:30 almost every night, and sometimes she'll fall to sleep in 10 minutes (~6 songs on the night time CD) and sometimes it'll take an hour. See, that seems a bit wonky to me. If she's well into a routine, I just wouldn't expect to see that much variation in how long it takes her to get to sleep. I'm not sure if that's being overtired, being overstimulated, having you nearby, or what. It's not that often that it takes so long, or it wasn't. Lately it has been more of a problem. I really don't know why, there's nothing consistent in either the stimulation or the sleep patterns. Now, that said there were some nights DH was playing with her too much and getting her wound up. I've finally convinced him to stop that I think. SHe's good with her naps at daycare 'cause all the other kids sleep. One the weekends it's another story, kind of hit or miss. Having two days a week where her daytime sleep is messed up can keep the chaos alive with her nighttime sleep during the week. I know. This has been a consistent problem all her life. I assumed early on it was just that she wanted to maximize her Mama and Papa time. There are many weekends I've spent the better part of the day trying to get her to nap. I really don't like the concept of CIO. The couple of times I've let her cry have been out of sheer desperation. It's hard for me to do it in a planned manner, although I'm getting there. I'd prefer to find something gentler. I really don't care about everyone else telling me she should be STTN by now. Until recently I was tolerating it ok, but it's really taking its toll on both DH and myself and I think her too. I am also not a big fan of CIO, but I do also believe there are some personalities that will take you for a ride if you are not willing to be firm. With those kids, it is not kind to be wishy washy on boundaries, because it puts them on a roller coaster where nothing is to be depended upon. It also makes life difficult for you. Your daughter is not an infant anymore, so you are not dealing with infant issues and needs, so you should not frame them that way to yourself. Good point. It's hard to make that transition, although as she gets more stubborn it's a little easier to see her as a child and not a baby ;-). I agree I think that's been the problem. Though we have a routine, the sleeping situation isn't as consistent as it should be, with sometimes nursing at night. I think you have to make some distinctions here. If you are nearby and she is screaming at night, one of two things is most likely happening (assuming she's not sick): she's hungry or she just wants to play with you. The ultimate solution to the former is more food during the day. You can work that issue on the positive side (trying to get more in during the day), the negative side (refusing to further the habit of eating at night so she'll be hungrier during the day), or both. We've been working the positive side a lot, but how do you get a kid to eat more? I am sure I said this elsewhere in this thread, but I think part of it is that she does eat a lot during the day at daycare, so at 6pm she's not so hungry. The few nights she hasn't fallen asleep and it's 8pm, I give her food and she gobbles it down. So I'm not sure if we should try to cut back on food during the day. I think she eats a little less during the day at home on the weekends just because we're doing other stuff more, so she tends to eat more at night, but doesn't necessarily sleep better. If she wants play time (whether that's active play time or cuddle time), you cannot afford to feed that habit if you want any of you to get a good night's sleep. Some kids are very flexible, but it sounds like your daughter is much more determined than that, so if you give in once, that's good for a month's worth of effort to break the habit again. I think you know my daughter ;-). Yeah, she's determined, so this is clear where we need to stop this habit. She has often been middle of the night party girl. We keep everything quiet and calm, but she'd do things like push the button on the gloworm and start dancing to the music. You've also got the added wrinkle of wanting to change the habit of having her sleep with you. That will also require a change process. I want to change it only because I think it's part of the problem. I'm not opposed to her continuing to sleep in our bed if she actually *sleeps*. So, you've got three habits to change. Often it's easier to change a habit by substituting something else for it, rather than just eliminating it. I'd pick one habit at a time to change rather than trying to do them all at once. If I felt I needed to do it all at once, I'd do something radical like go on vacation somewhere, have a day or two where you *totally* mess up the schedule, and then take several more days to settle into the schedule you want, and then try to transition the new schedule home. That can be tough to arrange, though. Well......we did have a major vacation late December which made the problem worse I think. However we had more fluctuations when we returned with the surgery and all, so everything was out of whack. She slept at our neighbor's the night I went in (as DH was still out of the country), and they said that with their 2.5 yr old, DD slept like an angel, waking up briefly once and falling back to sleep. Ditto their own daughter, who usually is up often. I wish I could give her a kid to share the bed ;-) To change the play time, I think you're only option is to completely refuse to give in unless she's sick or something. If she's in the crib, you can rub or pat her back or something, but don't pick her up or take her out of the crib. She will likely pitch a huge fit over this, but the thing to keep in mind is that you're right there when she's doing it. She's not hungry (either deal with the food issue before attempting to deal with the play issue, or feed her before trying to resettle her), she's not in pain or anything like that, so this is just the two of you having a disagreement over appropriate nighttime activities. She can pitch a tantrum over that. If you're there patting her back or whatever, she's clearly not scared or anything like that. This is a simple clashing of wills. Sounds like you've been blessed with one of those kids who are very strong willed. That has its benefits, but you can't afford to be a pushover. You can be judicious about the things you take a stand on, but you can't fold on the things that are important or you do her a terrific disservice. It is very hard on strong-willed children to have weak willed parents. It forces them to shoulder the responsibility for making decisions too early because they know they can browbeat you into caving. It makes the world a much scarier place because they don't know that they can count on you to keep them safe. Very good point. What's funny is that in everything else in life, she has very strong-willed parents. She just turned out to be stronger! I never worried about being a weak willed parent before since it's so totally opposite of my personality, but this little one figured out how to work us.... Now, the tricky bit with this is that especially with some strong-willed children, having you standing there patting her on the back may actually prolong the crying because it keeps giving her hope that you'll cave. That's something you just have to decide for yourself. I know it's awful to walk away with them crying, but it's also awful to stand there with them crying. And, of course, it's awful to continue a habit that's detrimental to both of you. No easy answers. Personally, I'd likely tackle this issue last and hope tackling the others magically solves it ;-) Well, that's my hope. But as time goes by and I get more desperate, I'm more able to walk away from her screaming. The other thing that may be a factor is that she might be trying to get her Mommy time at night since you're at work during the day. That can make it hard to make a commitment to insisting on no play/cuddle time at night because of all the feelings involved with that. However, if you think that's part of the issue, then maybe you need to look at ways to address it. Could you jiggle schedules in such a way as to allow a little extra Mommy time somewhere else? Could you stop by for lunch at daycare? Could you do something different in the mornings? Could you make some of the evening Mommy time more salient somehow? That was definitely an issue early on with the reverse cycling. I'm not sure how much of an issue it is now. She loves her play time at daycare so much, she doesn't seem to miss us, but maybe that's possible. My work schedule is not flexible at all,unfortunately. Back when I worked near her daycare I used to go for lunch every day. However 1) we moved daycares almost a year ago and after a few times going, the babysitter felt it was disrupting her because she wasn't settling back in well, so I stopped going then and 2)now I work quite far away and it takes too long to get there. We've considered changing daycares to a closer one, but nixed that because 1)she's really really happy where she is, as are we and 2)I often have days where I'm not at the office but work off-site, and with traffic would be *really* inconvenient for DH to go so far out of his way to get her, they'd get home much later. Now with better weather we're spending more time outside in the evenings playing, and I'm with her all evening til she sleeps, and then all day on the weekends (which is why it's so hard to work on our house!). |
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