128 students suspended at Ind. school

In article , nimue says...

Banty wrote:
In article , nimue
says...

Tori M wrote:
I found it to be distracting to be in classes with kids wearing CoEd
Naked shirts (until the school figured them out lol) This was also
the "start" of the baggy jeans to your ankles pants.. kids yanking
them up all the time. I dont want to see anyones undies. I dont
see what the big deal is of wearing Jeans that fit and then going
home and changing and expressing themselves on their own time. Some
people might be suprised at how nice it is to walk without your
pants falling off all the time.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous to suspend kids who violate the
dress code. Hello? The kids need to go to class to learn. We
should not punish kids by taking away their opportunity and
responsibility to learn. That is utterly counter-productive. Give
the kids detention if you must, just don't take them out of class
for violating a dress code. They need to know that going to class
and getting an education takes priority over nearly everything.

OK - so you object to the punishment and not the rule?

I agree that suspension is a pretty unimaginative way to deal with
it.

Counter-productive, too.

Well, maybe in a short term narrow sense...


So, how about in-house detention,

I would be okay with after-school detention. I don't want the kids missing
class.

and in black slacks and white
shirts as required wear.

Are you saying the kids would have to change their clothes for detention?

Sure why not.

What I'm really trying to get at, though, is whether you're more up in arms
about the dress code, or the punishment.

Heck no. The logistics of that are dreadful. Furthermore, we cannot, in
NYC, do anything that could be remotely construed as humiliating the kids.
A teacher can lose his license for that.

It'd be darn hard to argue successfully that a day in black slacks and a white
shirt is a humiliation.

I think the reason for this particular incident was to make a strong point
regarding the dress code, vividly, and early in the schoo year. To help keep
things in line for the rest of the year.

Banty


--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm

hedgehog42 wrote:
snip

No hats or
bandanas or heavy coats.

Uh, what if it's cold?

Sweaters?

Even in Wisconsin during 20-below weather, this is rarely an issue. If
the boiler's not working, they'll make an exception.

Our kids take public transportation to school and they don't have lockers.
They have to have those heavy coats in the NYC winter.

Look, there are some good ideas here, but when you try to enforce
this, you will find that members of the school staff interpret these
rules differently. I guess my main point is I don't want anyone
missing class because her shirt is low cut.

See, I think there's an issue of distraction that comes into play
here, too. Low-cut tops are going to make plenty of co-workers uneasy
in the workplace and quite possibly hinder her career. Kids need to
learn that people dress in different ways based not just on
individual expression or fitting in with peers, but also in how they
want to be perceived.

True. That's why I like Career Friday, or whatever day. It's practice, but
it still lets them be the teens they are.

I think it does a kid no favor to pretend that a low-cut top,
designed to accentuate her sexual attractiveness, is a neutral choice.

And maybe missing one class period helps drive home that larger
understanding in a way that all the philosophizing and lecturing
doesn't.

Lori G.
Milwaukee, WI

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

nimue wrote:
Jen wrote:
"nimue" wrote in message
...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060827/..._st/dress_code

128 students suspended at Ind. school
Classrooms were a little less crowded at Morton High School on the
first day
of classes: 128 students were sent home for wearing the wrong
clothes.


Why not a proper uniform, with a range of things to cover lots of
tastes and individuality, but not turning it into a fashion show.

Jen

Well, in NYC the public schools cannot mandate uniforms. Even if we could,
I don't know if I think they are such a good idea.

Really? I am aware of several public schools in NYC that have
mandated, well, if not uniforms, the closest thing to it. One's best
friend is in a G&T program that requires the kids to wear yellow polo
shirts and blue bottoms (pants or skirts). A middle school that I pass
on my way to work has mandated white shirts and dark bottoms (no
jeans). At least with respect to the middle school, the policy was
instituted at the behest of the parents.

Barbara

Banty wrote:
In article , nimue
says...


The problem with the dress code is that kids in perfectly respectable
outfits are sent home. In fact, it's usually the girls who are
sent home, at least in my school. I have argued with deans that
tell me that a young girl in a tank top and a jean skirt that stops
just above the knee should be sent home because she is violating
dress code. I tell them it's hot; we have no air conditioning, and
this kid is going to miss her first period English exam. It makes
me sick.

And whose problem is that?

It's her problem and it's the school's problem. If this kid fails her
Regents, WE pay. Thanks No Child Left Behind. Anyway, this kid (I am
thinking of a specific case) looked totally fine to me. She just wound up
embarrassed and crying because she was told she looked inappropriate, and
she was told this by a male dean. It's really easy to make high school
girls feel terrible about themselves and that is what happened here -- and
for NOTHING! She looked fine! There was nothing slutty or even
inappropriate about her tank top or her jean skirt.


She can't stock up on a few light cotton
short sleeve tops for school? The dress code is distributed to all
students, right? (In our district, the parents have to sign it so
there are no plaintive excuses about unseen policies).

Actually, our kids are Title 1 kids -- poor. Very poor. We are dealing
with a whole mess of issues here. Was the dress code distributed? Maybe.
Did the kids read it and understand it? Maybe. Could their parents?
Maybe. Could they afford to buy new clothes? Maybe. Shouldn't we be
focusing on keeping these kids in class and learning? Definitely.


Banty

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

Jen wrote:
wrote in message


Why mini loads? Do you wash hers separately to yours and everyone elses?
I don't understand. I find I need to do a full load almost every day, and I
know other people who do even more.

There are 3 people in our family. I don't do laundry every day.

Naomi

Jen

Banty wrote:
In article , nimue
says...

Banty wrote:
In article , nimue
says...

Tori M wrote:
I found it to be distracting to be in classes with kids wearing
CoEd Naked shirts (until the school figured them out lol) This
was also the "start" of the baggy jeans to your ankles pants..
kids yanking them up all the time. I dont want to see anyones
undies. I dont see what the big deal is of wearing Jeans that
fit and then going home and changing and expressing themselves on
their own time. Some people might be suprised at how nice it is
to walk without your pants falling off all the time.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous to suspend kids who violate the
dress code. Hello? The kids need to go to class to learn. We
should not punish kids by taking away their opportunity and
responsibility to learn. That is utterly counter-productive.
Give the kids detention if you must, just don't take them out of
class for violating a dress code. They need to know that going to
class and getting an education takes priority over nearly
everything.

OK - so you object to the punishment and not the rule?

I agree that suspension is a pretty unimaginative way to deal with
it.

Counter-productive, too.

Well, maybe in a short term narrow sense...


So, how about in-house detention,

I would be okay with after-school detention. I don't want the kids
missing class.

and in black slacks and white
shirts as required wear.

Are you saying the kids would have to change their clothes for
detention?

Sure why not.

Where will they change? Let's say we have 40 kids in detention. Where will
they change? In the bathrooms? We want to have kids getting changed in the
bathroom? No. Let's not even go into the liability issues there. The
locker rooms in the basement? Nope -- they are being used by other kids and
if the kids go downstairs, we probably won't get them to come back up to our
school on the top floor -- they will just leave.

What I'm really trying to get at, though, is whether you're more up
in arms about the dress code, or the punishment.

The punishment, absolutely. It is idiotic and counter-productive to take a
kid out of class as a punishment. We are desperately trying to get them to
learn! Why the hell would we take them out of class if we want them in
class? It makes no sense.

Heck no. The logistics of that are dreadful. Furthermore, we
cannot, in NYC, do anything that could be remotely construed as
humiliating the kids. A teacher can lose his license for that.

It'd be darn hard to argue successfully that a day in black slacks
and a white shirt is a humiliation.

Uh, they are labelled. Any kid who looks at them can see they are being
punished. It's like a dunce cap and it is not legal in the NYC public
school system.

I think the reason for this particular incident was to make a strong
point regarding the dress code, vividly, and early in the schoo year.
To help keep things in line for the rest of the year.

The principal can't suspend 128 students all the time all year long. Kids
will resist and the rules will relax. That's just how it is.

Banty

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

Barbara wrote:
nimue wrote:
Jen wrote:
"nimue" wrote in message
...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060827/..._st/dress_code

128 students suspended at Ind. school
Classrooms were a little less crowded at Morton High School on the
first day
of classes: 128 students were sent home for wearing the wrong
clothes.


Why not a proper uniform, with a range of things to cover lots of
tastes and individuality, but not turning it into a fashion show.

Jen

Well, in NYC the public schools cannot mandate uniforms. Even if we
could, I don't know if I think they are such a good idea.

Really? I am aware of several public schools in NYC that have
mandated, well, if not uniforms, the closest thing to it.

Sounds like a charter school. I teach at a public school. We can have
uniforms, but we cannot require them. Kids can opt out, so what's the
point?

One's best
friend is in a G&T program that requires the kids to wear yellow polo
shirts and blue bottoms (pants or skirts). A middle school that I
pass on my way to work has mandated white shirts and dark bottoms (no
jeans). At least with respect to the middle school, the policy was
instituted at the behest of the parents.

Barbara

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

L. wrote:
nimue wrote:

Clearly they are NOT -- they are for teaching kids the appropriate
way to dress -- as teenagers!! In high school!! How does wearing
baggy pants affect a child's education? Why must we always be
controlling, controlling, controlling these kids? This sends the
message that we care more about what you look like than if you
learn, that appearance is more important than education. I don't
give a **** what my students are wearing as long as they are in
class!!!! Let them have their little teenage nonsense. Let them
know they can BE THEMSELVES and still learn, still enjoy learning!

ITA. I will refuse to send DS to a school that has a dress code,
other than for safety reasons. This kind of crap is petty and
ridiculous, and it squelches individual expression and creativity.


You sound like a wonderful parent.

-L.

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

nimue wrote:
wrote:
nimue wrote:

Teenagers want to be able to express themselves through their
clothing. I have no problem with that. I don't want to squash
their individuality. I don't want to control every aspect of their
lives. I just want them IN CLASS. Let them have their high school
fun; the real world will come along soon enough.


School IS the real world. It is the job of 14-18 year olds.

Not all jobs require professional dress, you know. I agree that school is
the job of 14-18 year olds. However, I don't think that they should be made
to dress like office workers while they are teenagers. I am a 38 year old
school teacher and I have come to this conclusion after years of teaching
high school kids.

Not all jobs require professional dress. But the dress code at this
school (or at our local school) does not require professional dress.
(i.e., jeans and tee shirts are allowed. )

And of course they can express their individuality through clothing.
THere are score of options that they can wear that meet the dress
code. Now, if their 'individuality' requires that they go to school
3/4's naked, or dressed in gang-wear, perhaps their career goals lean
towards exotic dancer or drug dealer ... and neither of those
requires a high school diploma.

The problem with the dress code is that kids in perfectly respectable
outfits are sent home. In fact, it's usually the girls who are sent home,
at least in my school. I have argued with deans that tell me that a young
girl in a tank top and a jean skirt that stops just above the knee should be
sent home because she is violating dress code. I tell them it's hot; we
have no air conditioning, and this kid is going to miss her first period
English exam. It makes me sick.

Well, it sounds like your local schools have dress codes that are far
more stringent than that in the school in the article, or in our local
school.

But, in any case, you presumably are aware of the dress code. If a
denim skirt isn't permitted, presumably some other sort of skirt of
acceptable legnth is permitted. (In a fabric that would be far cooler
than denim.) If she can't wear a tank top, surely she can wear a short
sleeved blouse or polo.

Naomi

nimue wrote:
wrote:
Jeff wrote:
"Banty" wrote in message

Depends on the dress code. But even if they code requires black
shoes, they can choose the brand and style, to suit their needs.
Same things with ties and shirts. And not all dress codes are
strick. Apparently, the dress code that the OP referenced just
required that certain areas of the body be covered and nothing
offensive be on the clothing. And, that teens keep their cell phones
off (that's not part of the dress, however - but there were problems
with this, as well).


Right. The dress code sounds very similar to the one at our local
schools. Which includes: no offensive/drug related slogans on shirts;

Fine, but what is offensive? Is a "Question Authority" t-shirt offensive?
What about one with an anarchy symbol?

I'd have to double check it (it's not on the website), but I believe
they are fairly specific about what types of slogans are unacceptable.
(Sexual references, drug/alcohol references, 4 letter words, racial
bigotry.) In any case, that's the easiest sort of violation to deal
with. The kid turns the shirt inside out for the rest of the day, and
all is well.



skirts and shorts have to be longer than the tips of the fingers held
at the sides; girls can wear sleeveless shirts if the straps are
(IIRC) at least two fingers wide and the shirt is cut high enough
under the arms to cover the bra; boys have to have sleeves. (Not
sure why the discrepancy.). No bare midriffs or backs (shirts have to
be long enough to tuck in),

Oh, good lord. That is ridiculous. I, like many women, never wear shirts
you have to tuck in.

You don't have to actually tuck them in. They just have to be long
enough that they come below the waist band of the pants or skirt. (so
as to NOT show the midriff.)

and pants have to be high enough to cover
the underwear. Nothing transparent or very low cut.

Define low cut. Then make sure everyone agrees with that definition,
because they don't.

No hats or
bandanas or heavy coats.

Uh, what if it's cold?

If the school is so cold that you have to walk around in a parka, there
is probably something wrong with the heating, and the school would be
aware of it. (Shaina's middle school was overly abundantly air
conditioned. She often wore a light jacket or sweater, and that was
fine. The idea is that when you come inside, you take off your outdoor
gear and put it in your locker.)

(Religious headcoverings are exempt.) No
pajamas. And nothing likely to damage school property. (Cleats on
shoes or hard metal trimmings on clothing.) The code concludes with
something like "If in doubt, don't wear it."

Look, there are some good ideas here, but when you try to enforce this, you
will find that members of the school staff interpret these rules
differently. I guess my main point is I don't want anyone missing class
because her shirt is low cut.

Last year at the middle school graduation, several girls showed up in
dresses that did not meet the dress code. (Mostly of the 'spagetti
straps' or 'low cut' flavor.) They were all handed shawls to cover
their shoulders with until the end of the ceremony. (At which point it
was no longer a 'school event' and all bets were off.)

But again, the basic summary -- when in doubt, don't wear it, together
with a little common sense, SHOULD cover most eventualities.


Still plenty of room there for 'individual expression.' Oh, and cell
phones have to be off during school hours.

That sounds reasonable. In NYC, the kids aren't allowed to have cell phones
at all. Last spring, the cops did sweeps in schools and netted hundreds of
cell phones. I thought it was a ridiculous and offensive waste of time.

The rule may actually ban them completely, but as long as they are in
your pocket, and off, there is no way the teacher would know you have
them. (Many kids [including mine] DO carry them to school. It's handy
if she needs to call me after school to let me know I need to pick her
up for some reason.)

Naomi