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#21
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
"Robyn Kozierok" wrote in message
... Right, which is why I think your question was worded to get the answer you wanted (subconsciously, perhaps) to get.... Could well be. Or maybe I just want someone to hold my hand and tell me that even if we can't pay the tuition on the girls school, my daughter will create her own personal integrity no matter where she goes, and that a public middle school in the inner city doesn't have to be such a scary place. Hmm. Maybe I should just talk to myself a little longer...this inner dialog stuff is interesting. Good luck figuring it all out! Thanks so much, Robyn. I appreciate your perspective. beeswing |
#22
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
"Penny Gaines" wrote in message
... I'm not quite sure which age is "middle school" - is it 6 -8 grades? which makes it 11 - 14yo? Middle school is usually 6th through 8th grade. The private school will have a 5th grade class as well by next year. I'm not dissatisfied with our public elementary school, so I don't know that I'd care if my kid went to 5th grade there...though I'm sure there's an advantage to the girls attending all four years of the program versus coming in "late." On the other hand, the private school has a waiting list, and the girls already attending would have priority for those 6th grade slots. I think if I had the choice of a school that would really suit my 11-14 yo, or (a not-good-match school and really good college), I think I would choose the good-fit school. Thanks for responding! I'm glad for your input. beeswing |
#23
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
In article , Beeswing wrote:
May I ask what you especially liked about the school you're sending your kids to? Well, I came to our current school out of desperation, because the public school had let my son do a lot of subject acceleration in 3rd grade, but wasn't prepared to let him continue it in 4th, mainly because of logistical issues (which had frankly made the whole thing rather difficult for all concerned even in 3rd). I think our private school is completely different from the one(s) you are considering, and is indeed a pretty "alternative" model for a school, but I like talking about it, so I'll take your opening anyhow. Bottom line, what I like is that they treat kids as individuals, and never underestimate them or dumb down for them. Our school is a tiny ungraded school that has 2 teachers and 30 kids in K-8. It was recommended to me when Ryan was starting 1st grade, and I visited it and really liked what they were doing, but decided against it for a number of reasons, not the least of which was that at that time it appeared that a multiage program in our public school would meet his educational needs nearly as well, without some of the other disadvantages, and it did for a couple of years. His retiring 3rd grade teacher re-recommended it to me, and this time we were desperate enough to overlook what we perceived to be the disadvantages, and fortunate that they wanted to admit a couple of older students that year (which they normally do not do) to fill a hole in their age distribution. What I like about it is that every child is treated as an individual. A lot of time is spent on social issues at all levels, and the kids are all incredibly good and caring toward one another. The group is about 2/3 elementary and 1/3 middle school age, and they do break up into those groups (with one teacher for each group) for much of the day. Within the elementary group, they are further divided into an older and a younger group for some activities. Math is done in 3 large groups, each of which is often split into subgroups, and in all cases individual expectations are varied as appropriate. Reading at the elementary level is completely individualized, with each child reading books agreed upon by themselves and the teacher, and doing age- and ability-appropriate activities relating to them. When they study science, the material is presented on a relatively high level with the understanding that younger children may not get everything, but still get a lot out of it, and appreciate not being babied. Each child also does an independent study on a topic of their choice that takes most of the year. (They do this in school). The school doesn't believe in (and thus doesn't assign) homework for elementary-aged students. There are parent volunteers and college students helping in the classroom almost all the time. The tradeoffs are that it is very small, limiting social opportunities. It doesn't have a traditional art, music or PE program (though all of these are addressed to some extent in non-traditional ways). But there is no band, choir, very few after-school activities, etc. We address this to some extent via outside activities (instrumental music lessons, soccer, tae kwon do, art camp, etc.) which also increases our kids' social contacts. From what I've seen, the kids do make the transition from the tiny, friendly atmosphere of this school to public or private traditional high schools without much trouble (somewhat surprisingly, IMO). Although my kids haven't started middle school yet, my 10yo will join the middle school group next year. I am particularly impressed with how well the middle school teacher handles the social issues that can be so difficult at that age. This gets re-visited throughout the year. This is our second year there. We are very pleased and expect all our kids to attend through middle school. However, it is significant to note that due to an unusual school choice/vouchering situation, we are not currently paying to send our kids to this school! This arrangement is not likely to last forever, however, and we're pretty committed to sticking with this even when we have to pay for it. (Fortunately, the offer a substantial sibling discount, and the school is not horribly expensive, as private schools go, to begin with. Still, it will be a big adjustment!) --Robyn |
#24
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
"Kevin Karplus" wrote in message ... I don't know about "character", but a public university education is a far better educational investment than a private middle school. In 10 years no one is going to care much whether she went to a good or a mediocre middle school, but going to a good university will affect her choices for the rest of her life. If I remember right, you are in Seattle, where going to private schools is highly fashionable (over 1/3 of all students do), but there are still decent public schools available. Far better to go to a decent public school and have enough money to afford 4+ years of university than to go to a ritzy middle school and then only be able to afford an AA degree. I have an afterthought, a question for you. If going to good private school didn't stop you from getting your four-year degree at some place decent, if not prestigious...would you feel any different? This school is graduating *all* their students two years ahead. I wonder when the critical education years are...besides the early elementary years? Thanks. beeswing |
#25
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
"H Schinske" wrote in message ... That said, if you think private school is the best place for her for middle school, my philosophy is to worry about now now, and worry about later later. If she needs the private school now, I'd spend the money and figure out how you and she can finance her college education later. I think that is definitely true. If I hadn't gone to private school when I did, I'd be a much less sane person today. That said, I was in a far worse situation in public school than I see my kids in currently, so the sacrifice was more worth it to my parents. Homeschooling was not a reasonable option then (or didn't look like it), tuition was a trifle cheaper, etc. Plus, with six kids, things like expensive family vacations just weren't going to happen anyway. Might as well put every cent towards school. Thanks, Helen. I'm thinking my kid might have a tougher time in public middle school than I did, given the environment of the school in question. But I have to admit that I don't really know as much; it's just an impression I have. I had some misgivings at first about the school she's in now (and I still do, for that matter) -- but all in all, it's been a reasonably good fit for her, and there's some stuff I flat out love about the school. So I could be wrong on the middle school, too. I do have a gut feeling that she'd love the private school, though. No question there. beeswing |
#26
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
In article , Beeswing wrote:
Here's why I asked the question I asked. Although the school we are considering is much better academically than our public, urban middle school, I really *am* concerned about "character" -- self-image, self-confidence, personal integrity, and the ability to steer clear of peer pressure (i.e., that my daughter be strong enough to own choices on sex, drugs, and so forth). The school we're considering is much different from the environment of our public middle school. It is an all-girls school whose mission is to train "future world leaders" -- in whatever way those future leaders might choose to run with it. Some of the parents and a few of the girls spoke at the school's open house. The parents were enthusiastic about how their daughters had grown and changed; they also talked about how engaged the kids were in the school and in education. The girls were poised, confident, well-spoken, and very positive about the school. I think of the middle school period as "formative years" -- in the best and worst senses possible. I believe they can make or break who you turn out to be, especially in the case of girls. College, which I also consider essential, doesn't carry quite the same weight on a girl's personality and esteem. The foundation for those, I believe, has largely been formed before a girl reaches college age. This is a good argument for choosing middle-school very carefully---particularly for girls (I believe that high school is a more critical time for boys). I would want to look at the math and science education offered at the all-girls school---one of the biggest weaknesess of many schools these days is the way they turn girls away from math and science at the middle and high-school level. Do the girls at the school think science and math are cool? Do they do any experiments or is it all "book learning? Get permission to observe a day or two of classes. Watch how the teachers interact with the kids---would this style work with your child? Watch how the kids play on the playground---do they break up into cliques? are there kids wandering around following one or two leaders? Are the kids coming back in from playing happy and excited or glum and irritable? Talk to some of the parents (outside the open house). Find out what they like and dislike about the school. Are these the important issues for you and your daughter? -- Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels) Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed) Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics Affiliations for identification only. |
#27
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
Kevin Karplus wrote:
This is a good argument for choosing middle-school very carefully---particularly for girls (I believe that high school is a more critical time for boys). I would want to look at the math and science education offered at the all-girls school---one of the biggest weaknesess of many schools these days is the way they turn girls away from math and science at the middle and high-school level. Do the girls at the school think science and math are cool? Do they do any experiments or is it all "book learning? Good idea, but I think it's an area of strength. This school actually focuses on science and technology for girls, thinking that young women often get short changed in this area. One of their projects right now is to build an airplane -- a real one -- using math, physics, communication skills, and such to carry it off. My one concern is that their *language arts* offerings may be weak, in contrast, but that says more about my personal background and what I value and enjoy than it does about my daughter. I'd love a chance to talk to more students about how they feel about the school. Get permission to observe a day or two of classes. Watch how the teachers interact with the kids---would this style work with your child? Watch how the kids play on the playground---do they break up into cliques? are there kids wandering around following one or two leaders? Are the kids coming back in from playing happy and excited or glum and irritable? Talk to some of the parents (outside the open house). Find out what they like and dislike about the school. Are these the important issues for you and your daughter? Thanks. These are all great ideas. beeswing |
#28
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
In article , Beeswing wrote:
I have an afterthought, a question for you. If going to good private school didn't stop you from getting your four-year degree at some place decent, if not prestigious...would you feel any different? This school is graduating *all* their students two years ahead. I wonder when the critical education years are...besides the early elementary years? It depends a lot what you mean by "prestigious" and "decent". There is a very nice article in a recent issue of Academe by Renny Christopher http://www.aaup.org/publications/Aca...a/03jachri.htm claiming that working-class kids are getting short-changed in their university education because of lower quality education in the California State (CSU) schools contrasted to the University of California (UC) system (she has taught in both). I think that for most people, the CSU system is considered "decent" and UC is "prestigious". The UC school system is roughly at the same level as University of Washington, Seattle---I'm not familiar enough with the Washington colleges to know what the equivalents are of the CSU system. If your standards are higher (that almost any research university is "decent" and Stanford or UC Berkeley is prestigious), the question becomes quite a different one. The "name-brand" of the university that you end up at matters more than where you start. I went to a mediocre university for my undergraduate program (Michigan State), but got a good education, since it had a small number of very good students who got a lot of faculty attention, and I was lucky enough to be in that group. I might have done slightly better at a more prestigious school, but not by much. For grad school, I went to Stanford, and that did make a difference in what I learned, how much I enjoyed it, and what jobs I could later get. It was exciting to be in a place where a lot of the other people were as bright as me, and somewhat daunting that some were much brighter (I never was able to grasp all of Tarjan's proof of the asymptotic complexity of the union-find algorithm, and I could not have come up with it myself). If your choices are between (private school+CSU) and (public school+UC), I'd say that the UC choice is probably the better one. If the choice is between (private school+UC) and (public school+Stanford), the advantages of the private school might be more important. Of course, things are not always so clearcut---the difference in education at the middle-school and high-school level will affect the child's desire and ability to achieve at college, so private school may open up greater possibilities educationally, while draining financial resources. I hope not to have to face this problem with my son---we've been saving for college for him since he was born, and hope to be able to afford to send him to whatever schools or colleges best fit his needs and abilities. For elementary school so far we have stuck with public schools (taking full advantage of a strong bilingual program to get him intensive education in Spanish). When the bilingual program ends after 3rd grade, we may move him to a private school for a few years, since the GATE program is practically non-existent in the public schools here. For middle school and high school, we will probably try to get him into a local charter school that has very high academic standards. Unfortunately, there is a lottery to get into the charter school (only room for 50 students per year), so luck may affect our choices. -- Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels) Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed) Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics Affiliations for identification only. |
#29
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
Beeswing wrote:
"Kevin Karplus" wrote in message ... I don't know about "character", but a public university education is a far better educational investment than a private middle school. In 10 years no one is going to care much whether she went to a good or a mediocre middle school, but going to a good university will affect her choices for the rest of her life. If I remember right, you are in Seattle, where going to private schools is highly fashionable (over 1/3 of all students do), but there are still decent public schools available. Far better to go to a decent public school and have enough money to afford 4+ years of university than to go to a ritzy middle school and then only be able to afford an AA degree. I can't really speak to the effects of decent versus prestigious undergraduate programs. I was lucky enough to get into my dad's university (an Ivy League school) and get free tuition as a dependent. But I did go through the same thought process for graduate school. Should I spend the money and go to the number one school in my field or should I go to a second-tier school where I know I would be taken care of financially because I would be queen bee? I asked my father for advice and he said basically even in the academic field, sure, the prestigous school helps with your first and maybe second position but in the end, it's what you do that determines your success. FWIW, he went to a second or third tier school for his PhD and ended up a professor at an Ivy League school, whereas my brother got his PhD at an Ivy League school and ended up a professor at a second or third tier school. Both are well-respected in their field. I have an afterthought, a question for you. If going to good private school didn't stop you from getting your four-year degree at some place decent, if not prestigious...would you feel any different? This school is graduating *all* their students two years ahead. I wonder when the critical education years are...besides the early elementary years? I'm not sure I would use early graduation as an indicator of successful, but I'm not a fan of pushing students through school as fast as possible. While they may "get started" in life earlier, I think the kids also tend to learn life is some sort of race. I remember when I told my friends I was taking off a year between undergrad and grad school to go to China, the response was "But you'll lose a year!" (?!) For me, I'm looking at placing my daughter in the public elementary school for grades 2-5 and then back in her small Montessori school for the middle school years mainly because I like their curriculum and I like the small school environment and the absolute absence of cliques. But it's definitely YMMV. Jeanne |
#30
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
Jeanne wrote:
I'm not sure I would use early graduation as an indicator of successful, but I'm not a fan of pushing students through school as fast as possible. They don't graduate early, neccessarily (I don't know that they do or don't, really, but that wasn't what we were being told). What I mean is that all of this year's graduating class is working two or more years above "grade level." The only caveat I see is that the kids are required to be at grade level or above to get into the school, so I don't know if it's chicken or egg. By the way, what did you decide to do for graduate school? Spend the extra money for a number one school, or go to what you called a "second-tier school"? Do you think the choice you made has made a difference, either positive or negative? Thanks so much for your thoughts. beeswing |
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