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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 18th 03, 11:15 PM
Beeswing
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Default Character of a growing girl (middle school question)

"Robyn Kozierok" wrote in message
...

Right, which is why I think your question was worded to get the answer
you wanted (subconsciously, perhaps) to get....


Could well be. Or maybe I just want someone to hold my hand and tell
me that even if we can't pay the tuition on the girls school, my
daughter will create her own personal integrity no matter where she
goes, and that a public middle school in the inner city doesn't have to
be such a scary place.

Hmm. Maybe I should just talk to myself a little longer...this inner
dialog stuff is interesting.

Good luck figuring it all out!


Thanks so much, Robyn. I appreciate your perspective.

beeswing




  #22  
Old November 18th 03, 11:15 PM
Beeswing
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Default Character of a growing girl (middle school question)

"Penny Gaines" wrote in message
...

I'm not quite sure which age is "middle school" - is it 6 -8 grades?
which makes it 11 - 14yo?


Middle school is usually 6th through 8th grade. The private school will
have a 5th grade class as well by next year. I'm not dissatisfied with
our public elementary school, so I don't know that I'd care if my kid
went to 5th grade there...though I'm sure there's an advantage to the
girls attending all four years of the program versus coming in "late."
On the other hand, the private school has a waiting list, and the girls
already attending would have priority for those 6th grade slots.

I think if I had the choice of a school that would really suit
my 11-14 yo, or (a not-good-match school and really good college),
I think I would choose the good-fit school.


Thanks for responding! I'm glad for your input.

beeswing




  #23  
Old November 19th 03, 12:09 AM
Robyn Kozierok
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Default Character of a growing girl (middle school question)

In article , Beeswing wrote:

May I ask what you especially liked about the school you're sending your
kids to?



Well, I came to our current school out of desperation, because the
public school had let my son do a lot of subject acceleration in 3rd
grade, but wasn't prepared to let him continue it in 4th, mainly
because of logistical issues (which had frankly made the whole thing
rather difficult for all concerned even in 3rd).

I think our private school is completely different from the one(s) you are
considering, and is indeed a pretty "alternative" model for a school, but
I like talking about it, so I'll take your opening anyhow.

Bottom line, what I like is that they treat kids as individuals,
and never underestimate them or dumb down for them.

Our school is a tiny ungraded school that has 2 teachers and 30 kids in
K-8. It was recommended to me when Ryan was starting 1st grade, and I
visited it and really liked what they were doing, but decided against
it for a number of reasons, not the least of which was that at that
time it appeared that a multiage program in our public school would
meet his educational needs nearly as well, without some of the other
disadvantages, and it did for a couple of years. His retiring 3rd
grade teacher re-recommended it to me, and this time we were desperate
enough to overlook what we perceived to be the disadvantages, and
fortunate that they wanted to admit a couple of older students that
year (which they normally do not do) to fill a hole in their age
distribution.

What I like about it is that every child is treated as an individual.
A lot of time is spent on social issues at all levels, and the kids
are all incredibly good and caring toward one another. The group is
about 2/3 elementary and 1/3 middle school age, and they do break up
into those groups (with one teacher for each group) for much of the
day. Within the elementary group, they are further divided into
an older and a younger group for some activities. Math is done in
3 large groups, each of which is often split into subgroups, and in
all cases individual expectations are varied as appropriate. Reading
at the elementary level is completely individualized, with each child
reading books agreed upon by themselves and the teacher, and doing age-
and ability-appropriate activities relating to them. When they study
science, the material is presented on a relatively high level with the
understanding that younger children may not get everything, but still
get a lot out of it, and appreciate not being babied. Each child also
does an independent study on a topic of their choice that takes most
of the year. (They do this in school). The school doesn't believe in
(and thus doesn't assign) homework for elementary-aged students.
There are parent volunteers and college students helping in the classroom
almost all the time.

The tradeoffs are that it is very small, limiting social opportunities.
It doesn't have a traditional art, music or PE program (though all of
these are addressed to some extent in non-traditional ways). But there
is no band, choir, very few after-school activities, etc. We address
this to some extent via outside activities (instrumental music lessons,
soccer, tae kwon do, art camp, etc.) which also increases our kids'
social contacts. From what I've seen, the kids do make the transition
from the tiny, friendly atmosphere of this school to public or private
traditional high schools without much trouble (somewhat surprisingly, IMO).

Although my kids haven't started middle school yet, my 10yo will join
the middle school group next year. I am particularly impressed with
how well the middle school teacher handles the social issues that can
be so difficult at that age. This gets re-visited throughout the year.

This is our second year there. We are very pleased and expect all our
kids to attend through middle school. However, it is significant to
note that due to an unusual school choice/vouchering situation, we are
not currently paying to send our kids to this school! This arrangement
is not likely to last forever, however, and we're pretty committed to
sticking with this even when we have to pay for it. (Fortunately, the
offer a substantial sibling discount, and the school is not horribly
expensive, as private schools go, to begin with. Still, it will be a
big adjustment!)

--Robyn

  #24  
Old November 19th 03, 12:11 AM
Beeswing
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Default Character of a growing girl (middle school question)


"Kevin Karplus" wrote in message
...

I don't know about "character", but a public university education is a
far better educational investment than a private middle school. In 10
years no one is going to care much whether she went to a good or a
mediocre middle school, but going to a good university will affect her
choices for the rest of her life.

If I remember right, you are in Seattle, where going to private
schools is highly fashionable (over 1/3 of all students do), but there
are still decent public schools available. Far better to go to a
decent public school and have enough money to afford 4+ years of
university than to go to a ritzy middle school and then only be able
to afford an AA degree.


I have an afterthought, a question for you. If going to good private
school didn't stop you from getting your four-year degree at some place
decent, if not prestigious...would you feel any different? This school
is graduating *all* their students two years ahead. I wonder when the
critical education years are...besides the early elementary years?

Thanks.

beeswing




  #25  
Old November 19th 03, 12:11 AM
Beeswing
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Default Character of a growing girl (middle school question)


"H Schinske" wrote in message
...
That said, if you think private school is the best place for her for
middle school, my philosophy is to worry about now now, and worry

about
later later. If she needs the private school now, I'd spend the

money
and figure out how you and she can finance her college education

later.

I think that is definitely true. If I hadn't gone to private school

when I did,
I'd be a much less sane person today. That said, I was in a far worse

situation
in public school than I see my kids in currently, so the sacrifice was

more
worth it to my parents. Homeschooling was not a reasonable option then

(or
didn't look like it), tuition was a trifle cheaper, etc. Plus, with

six kids,
things like expensive family vacations just weren't going to happen

anyway.
Might as well put every cent towards school.


Thanks, Helen. I'm thinking my kid might have a tougher time in public
middle school than I did, given the environment of the school in
question. But I have to admit that I don't really know as much; it's
just an impression I have. I had some misgivings at first about the
school she's in now (and I still do, for that matter) -- but all in all,
it's been a reasonably good fit for her, and there's some stuff I flat
out love about the school. So I could be wrong on the middle school,
too.

I do have a gut feeling that she'd love the private school, though. No
question there.

beeswing



  #26  
Old November 19th 03, 12:13 AM
Kevin Karplus
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Default Character of a growing girl (middle school question)

In article , Beeswing wrote:
Here's why I asked the question I asked. Although the school we are
considering is much better academically than our public, urban middle
school, I really *am* concerned about "character" -- self-image,
self-confidence, personal integrity, and the ability to steer clear of
peer pressure (i.e., that my daughter be strong enough to own choices on
sex, drugs, and so forth). The school we're considering is much
different from the environment of our public middle school. It is an
all-girls school whose mission is to train "future world leaders" -- in
whatever way those future leaders might choose to run with it. Some of
the parents and a few of the girls spoke at the school's open house. The
parents were enthusiastic about how their daughters had grown and
changed; they also talked about how engaged the kids were in the school
and in education. The girls were poised, confident, well-spoken, and
very positive about the school.

I think of the middle school period as "formative years" -- in the best
and worst senses possible. I believe they can make or break who you turn
out to be, especially in the case of girls. College, which I also
consider essential, doesn't carry quite the same weight on a girl's
personality and esteem. The foundation for those, I believe, has largely
been formed before a girl reaches college age.


This is a good argument for choosing middle-school very
carefully---particularly for girls (I believe that high school is a
more critical time for boys). I would want to look at the math and
science education offered at the all-girls school---one of the biggest
weaknesess of many schools these days is the way they turn girls away
from math and science at the middle and high-school level. Do the
girls at the school think science and math are cool? Do they do any
experiments or is it all "book learning?

Get permission to observe a day or two of classes. Watch how the
teachers interact with the kids---would this style work with your
child? Watch how the kids play on the playground---do they break up
into cliques? are there kids wandering around following one or two
leaders? Are the kids coming back in from playing happy and excited
or glum and irritable?

Talk to some of the parents (outside the open house). Find out what
they like and dislike about the school. Are these the important
issues for you and your daughter?

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

  #27  
Old November 19th 03, 02:54 AM
beeswing
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Default Character of a growing girl (middle school question)

Kevin Karplus wrote:

This is a good argument for choosing middle-school very
carefully---particularly for girls (I believe that high school is a
more critical time for boys). I would want to look at the math and
science education offered at the all-girls school---one of the biggest
weaknesess of many schools these days is the way they turn girls away
from math and science at the middle and high-school level. Do the
girls at the school think science and math are cool? Do they do any
experiments or is it all "book learning?


Good idea, but I think it's an area of strength. This school actually focuses
on science and technology for girls, thinking that young women often get short
changed in this area. One of their projects right now is to build an airplane
-- a real one -- using math, physics, communication skills, and such to carry
it off. My one concern is that their *language arts* offerings may be weak, in
contrast, but that says more about my personal background and what I value and
enjoy than it does about my daughter. I'd love a chance to talk to more
students about how they feel about the school.

Get permission to observe a day or two of classes. Watch how the
teachers interact with the kids---would this style work with your
child? Watch how the kids play on the playground---do they break up
into cliques? are there kids wandering around following one or two
leaders? Are the kids coming back in from playing happy and excited
or glum and irritable?

Talk to some of the parents (outside the open house). Find out what
they like and dislike about the school. Are these the important
issues for you and your daughter?


Thanks. These are all great ideas.

beeswing


  #28  
Old November 19th 03, 02:31 PM
Kevin Karplus
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Default Character of a growing girl (middle school question)

In article , Beeswing wrote:
I have an afterthought, a question for you. If going to good private
school didn't stop you from getting your four-year degree at some place
decent, if not prestigious...would you feel any different? This school
is graduating *all* their students two years ahead. I wonder when the
critical education years are...besides the early elementary years?


It depends a lot what you mean by "prestigious" and "decent".

There is a very nice article in a recent issue of Academe by Renny
Christopher
http://www.aaup.org/publications/Aca...a/03jachri.htm
claiming that working-class kids are getting short-changed in their
university education because of lower quality education in the
California State (CSU) schools contrasted to the University of
California (UC) system (she has taught in both). I think that for most
people, the CSU system is considered "decent" and UC is "prestigious".

The UC school system is roughly at the same level as University of
Washington, Seattle---I'm not familiar enough with the Washington
colleges to know what the equivalents are of the CSU system.

If your standards are higher (that almost any research university is
"decent" and Stanford or UC Berkeley is prestigious), the question
becomes quite a different one.

The "name-brand" of the university that you end up at matters more
than where you start. I went to a mediocre university for my
undergraduate program (Michigan State), but got a good education,
since it had a small number of very good students who got a lot of
faculty attention, and I was lucky enough to be in that group. I
might have done slightly better at a more prestigious school, but not
by much. For grad school, I went to Stanford, and that did make a
difference in what I learned, how much I enjoyed it, and what jobs I
could later get. It was exciting to be in a place where a lot of the
other people were as bright as me, and somewhat daunting that some
were much brighter (I never was able to grasp all of Tarjan's proof of
the asymptotic complexity of the union-find algorithm, and I could not
have come up with it myself).

If your choices are between (private school+CSU) and (public
school+UC), I'd say that the UC choice is probably the better one.
If the choice is between (private school+UC) and (public
school+Stanford), the advantages of the private school might be more
important. Of course, things are not always so clearcut---the
difference in education at the middle-school and high-school level will
affect the child's desire and ability to achieve at college, so
private school may open up greater possibilities educationally, while
draining financial resources.

I hope not to have to face this problem with my son---we've been
saving for college for him since he was born, and hope to be able to
afford to send him to whatever schools or colleges best fit his needs
and abilities.

For elementary school so far we have stuck with public schools (taking
full advantage of a strong bilingual program to get him intensive
education in Spanish). When the bilingual program ends after 3rd
grade, we may move him to a private school for a few years, since the
GATE program is practically non-existent in the public schools here.
For middle school and high school, we will probably try to get him
into a local charter school that has very high academic standards.
Unfortunately, there is a lottery to get into the charter school (only
room for 50 students per year), so luck may affect our choices.

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

  #29  
Old November 19th 03, 04:38 PM
Bruce and Jeanne
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Default Character of a growing girl (middle school question)

Beeswing wrote:


"Kevin Karplus" wrote in message
...

I don't know about "character", but a public university education is a
far better educational investment than a private middle school. In 10
years no one is going to care much whether she went to a good or a
mediocre middle school, but going to a good university will affect her
choices for the rest of her life.

If I remember right, you are in Seattle, where going to private
schools is highly fashionable (over 1/3 of all students do), but there
are still decent public schools available. Far better to go to a
decent public school and have enough money to afford 4+ years of
university than to go to a ritzy middle school and then only be able
to afford an AA degree.




I can't really speak to the effects of decent versus prestigious
undergraduate programs. I was lucky enough to get into my dad's
university (an Ivy League school) and get free tuition as a dependent.
But I did go through the same thought process for graduate school.
Should I spend the money and go to the number one school in my field or
should I go to a second-tier school where I know I would be taken care
of financially because I would be queen bee? I asked my father for
advice and he said basically even in the academic field, sure, the
prestigous school helps with your first and maybe second position but in
the end, it's what you do that determines your success.

FWIW, he went to a second or third tier school for his PhD and ended up
a professor at an Ivy League school, whereas my brother got his PhD at
an Ivy League school and ended up a professor at a second or third tier
school. Both are well-respected in their field.

I have an afterthought, a question for you. If going to good private
school didn't stop you from getting your four-year degree at some place
decent, if not prestigious...would you feel any different? This school
is graduating *all* their students two years ahead. I wonder when the
critical education years are...besides the early elementary years?


I'm not sure I would use early graduation as an indicator of successful,
but I'm not a fan of pushing students through school as fast as
possible. While they may "get started" in life earlier, I think the
kids also tend to learn life is some sort of race. I remember when I
told my friends I was taking off a year between undergrad and grad
school to go to China, the response was "But you'll lose a year!" (?!)

For me, I'm looking at placing my daughter in the public elementary
school for grades 2-5 and then back in her small Montessori school for
the middle school years mainly because I like their curriculum and I
like the small school environment and the absolute absence of cliques.
But it's definitely YMMV.

Jeanne



  #30  
Old November 19th 03, 04:54 PM
beeswing
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Default Character of a growing girl (middle school question)

Jeanne wrote:

I'm not sure I would use early graduation as an indicator of successful,
but I'm not a fan of pushing students through school as fast as
possible.


They don't graduate early, neccessarily (I don't know that they do or don't,
really, but that wasn't what we were being told). What I mean is that all of
this year's graduating class is working two or more years above "grade level."
The only caveat I see is that the kids are required to be at grade level or
above to get into the school, so I don't know if it's chicken or egg.

By the way, what did you decide to do for graduate school? Spend the extra
money for a number one school, or go to what you called a "second-tier school"?
Do you think the choice you made has made a difference, either positive or
negative?

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

beeswing

 




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