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#21
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Making blanket statements is a really poor method of debate. You cannot say that "Most" parents think that spanking is reasonable, unless you have personally interviewed each and every parent in the world. Until you do that, it is *YOUR OPINION* not fact.
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Becca Momma to two boys Big Guy 3/02 and Wuvy-Buv 8/05 |
#22
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What would you do if.....
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote:
Correction *** Doan wrote: On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote: Doan Wrote: reasonable: (rz-n-bl) adj. 1. Capable of reasoning; rational: a reasonable person. 2. Governed by or being in accordance with reason or sound thinking: a reasonable solution to the problem. 3. Being within the bounds of common sense: arrive home at a reasonable hour. 4. Not excessive or extreme; fair: reasonable prices. So I take it that it is not "reasonable" to spank you kids, according to you? Doan Very good Doan. It is Unreasonable to spank any child, for any reason. Children are precious, Parents are supposed to love them care for them teach them guide them into productive adulthood. Spanking has been upheld by the courts (even the Supreme Court) as "reasonable". It might be "unreasonable" to you but to most parents in the U.S., it is "reasonable". We are not a majority rules society. You can relax that argument now, or retire it. *** Laws are NOT made by majority rule. Hahaha! Realllly??? You must have skipped Government 101! GOVERNMENT 101: How a Bill Becomes Law A. Legislation is Introduced - Any member can introduce a piece of legislation House - Legislation is handed to the clerk of the House or placed in the hopper. Senate - Members must gain recognition of the presiding officer to announce the introduction of a bill during the morning hour. If any senator objects, the introduction of the bill is postponed until the next day. * The bill is assigned a number. (e.g. HR 1 or S 1) * The bill is labeled with the sponsor's name. * The bill is sent to the Government Printing Office (GPO) and copies are made. * Senate bills can be jointly sponsored. * Members can cosponsor the piece of Legislation. B. Committee Action - The bill is referred to the appropriate committee by the Speaker of the House or the presiding officer in the Senate. Most often, the actual referral decision is made by the House or Senate parliamentarian. Bills may be referred to more than one committee and it may be split so that parts are sent to different committees. The Speaker of the House may set time limits on committees. Bills are placed on the calendar of the committee to which they have been assigned. Failure to act on a bill is equivalent to killing it. Bills in the House can only be released from committee without a proper committee vote by a discharge petition signed by a majority of the House membership (218 members). Committee Steps: 1. Comments about the bill's merit are requested by government agencies. 2. Bill can be assigned to subcommittee by Chairman. 3. Hearings may be held. 4. Subcommittees report their findings to the full committee. 5. Finally there is a vote by the full committee - the bill is "ordered to be reported." 6. A committee will hold a "mark-up" session during which it will make revisions and additions. If substantial amendments are made, the committee can order the introduction of a "clean bill" which will include the proposed amendments. This new bill will have a new number and will be sent to the floor while the old bill is discarded. The chamber must approve, change or reject all committee amendments before conducting a final passage vote. 7. After the bill is reported, the committee staff prepares a written report explaining why they favor the bill and why they wish to see their amendments, if any, adopted. Committee members who oppose a bill sometimes write a dissenting opinion in the report. The report is sent back to the whole chamber and is placed on the calendar. 8. In the House, most bills go to the Rules committee before reaching the floor. The committee adopts rules that will govern the procedures under which the bill will be considered by the House. A "closed rule" sets strict time limits on debate and forbids the introduction of amendments. These rules can have a major impact on whether the bill passes. The rules committee can be bypassed in three ways: 1) members can move rules to be suspended (requires 2/3 vote)2) a discharge petition can be filed 3) the House can use a Calendar Wednesday procedure. C. Floor Action 1. Legislation is placed on the Calendar House: Bills are placed on one of four House Calendars. They are usually placed on the calendars in the order of which they are reported yet they don't usually come to floor in this order - some bills never reach the floor at all. The Speaker of the House and the Majority Leader decide what will reach the floor and when. (Legislation can also be brought to the floor by a discharge petition.) Senate: Legislation is placed on the Legislative Calendar. There is also an Executive calendar to deal with treaties and nominations. Scheduling of legislation is the job of the Majority Leader. Bills can be brought to the floor whenever a majority of the Senate chooses. 2. Debate House: Debate is limited by the rules formulated in the Rules Committee. The Committee of the Whole debates and amends the bill but cannot technically pass it. Debate is guided by the Sponsoring Committee and time is divided equally between proponents and opponents. The Committee decides how much time to allot to each person. Amendments must be germane to the subject of a bill - no riders are allowed. The bill is reported back to the House (to itself) and is voted on. A quorum call is a vote to make sure that there are enough members present (218) to have a final vote. If there is not a quorum, the House will adjourn or will send the Sergeant at Arms out to round up missing members. Senate: debate is unlimited unless cloture is invoked. Members can speak as long as they want and amendments need not be germane - riders are often offered. Entire bills can therefore be offered as amendments to other bills. Unless cloture is invoked, Senators can use a filibuster to defeat a measure by "talking it to death." 3. Vote - the bill is voted on. If passed, it is then sent to the other chamber unless that chamber already has a similar measure under consideration. If either chamber does not pass the bill then it dies. If the House and Senate pass the same bill then it is sent to the President. If the House and Senate pass different bills they are sent to Conference Committee. Most major legislation goes to a Conference Committee. D. Conference Committee 1. Members from each house form a conference committee and meet to work out the differences. The committee is usually made up of senior members who are appointed by the presiding officers of the committee that originally dealt with the bill. The representatives from each house work to maintain their version of the bill. 2. If the Conference Committee reaches a compromise, it prepares a written conference report, which is submitted to each chamber. 3. The conference report must be approved by both the House and the Senate. E. The President - the bill is sent to the President for review. 1. A bill becomes law if signed by the President or if not signed within 10 days and Congress is in session. 2. If Congress adjourns before the 10 days and the President has not signed the bill then it does not become law ("Pocket Veto.") 3. If the President vetoes the bill it is sent back to Congress with a note listing his/her reasons. The chamber that originated the legislation can attempt to override the veto by a vote of two-thirds of those present. If the veto of the bill is overridden in both chambers then it becomes law. F. The Bill Becomes A Law - once a bill is signed by the President or his veto is overridden by both houses it becomes a law and is assigned an official number. AFfromDreamLand |
#23
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What would you do if.....
On 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: And when have "most" of any group been a valid argument for ANY cause? It's not how many agree. It's how valid their claims. And who will determine it? To say that parents are unreasonable because they chose to spank is itself "unreasonable". The argument of the slavery proponents, and opponents of women's sufferage. False analogy! The relationship between parents/children is different. You are not arguing that slave owners should use non-cp alternatives to discipline their slaves, are you?? AFfromDreamLand |
#24
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What would you do if.....
Doan wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: Correction *** Doan wrote: On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote: Doan Wrote: reasonable: (rz-n-bl) adj. 1. Capable of reasoning; rational: a reasonable person. 2. Governed by or being in accordance with reason or sound thinking: a reasonable solution to the problem. 3. Being within the bounds of common sense: arrive home at a reasonable hour. 4. Not excessive or extreme; fair: reasonable prices. So I take it that it is not "reasonable" to spank you kids, according to you? Doan Very good Doan. It is Unreasonable to spank any child, for any reason. Children are precious, Parents are supposed to love them care for them teach them guide them into productive adulthood. Spanking has been upheld by the courts (even the Supreme Court) as "reasonable". It might be "unreasonable" to you but to most parents in the U.S., it is "reasonable". We are not a majority rules society. You can relax that argument now, or retire it. *** Laws are NOT made by majority rule. Hahaha! Realllly??? You must have skipped Government 101! You must not understand what you are reading. I just pointed out it's NOT majority rule. It's representative rule, by vote. And that, little child, is why a law is coming your way, as it has all over the world, and in our school systems. GOVERNMENT 101: How a Bill Becomes Law A. Legislation is Introduced - Any member can introduce a piece of legislation House - Legislation is handed to the clerk of the House or placed in the hopper. Senate - Members must gain recognition of the presiding officer to announce the introduction of a bill during the morning hour. If any senator objects, the introduction of the bill is postponed until the next day. * The bill is assigned a number. (e.g. HR 1 or S 1) * The bill is labeled with the sponsor's name. * The bill is sent to the Government Printing Office (GPO) and copies are made. * Senate bills can be jointly sponsored. * Members can cosponsor the piece of Legislation. B. Committee Action - The bill is referred to the appropriate committee by the Speaker of the House or the presiding officer in the Senate. Most often, the actual referral decision is made by the House or Senate parliamentarian. Bills may be referred to more than one committee and it may be split so that parts are sent to different committees. The Speaker of the House may set time limits on committees. Bills are placed on the calendar of the committee to which they have been assigned. Failure to act on a bill is equivalent to killing it. Bills in the House can only be released from committee without a proper committee vote by a discharge petition signed by a majority of the House membership (218 members). Committee Steps: 1. Comments about the bill's merit are requested by government agencies. 2. Bill can be assigned to subcommittee by Chairman. 3. Hearings may be held. 4. Subcommittees report their findings to the full committee. 5. Finally there is a vote by the full committee - the bill is "ordered to be reported." 6. A committee will hold a "mark-up" session during which it will make revisions and additions. If substantial amendments are made, the committee can order the introduction of a "clean bill" which will include the proposed amendments. This new bill will have a new number and will be sent to the floor while the old bill is discarded. The chamber must approve, change or reject all committee amendments before conducting a final passage vote. 7. After the bill is reported, the committee staff prepares a written report explaining why they favor the bill and why they wish to see their amendments, if any, adopted. Committee members who oppose a bill sometimes write a dissenting opinion in the report. The report is sent back to the whole chamber and is placed on the calendar. 8. In the House, most bills go to the Rules committee before reaching the floor. The committee adopts rules that will govern the procedures under which the bill will be considered by the House. A "closed rule" sets strict time limits on debate and forbids the introduction of amendments. These rules can have a major impact on whether the bill passes. The rules committee can be bypassed in three ways: 1) members can move rules to be suspended (requires 2/3 vote)2) a discharge petition can be filed 3) the House can use a Calendar Wednesday procedure. C. Floor Action 1. Legislation is placed on the Calendar House: Bills are placed on one of four House Calendars. They are usually placed on the calendars in the order of which they are reported yet they don't usually come to floor in this order - some bills never reach the floor at all. The Speaker of the House and the Majority Leader decide what will reach the floor and when. (Legislation can also be brought to the floor by a discharge petition.) Senate: Legislation is placed on the Legislative Calendar. There is also an Executive calendar to deal with treaties and nominations. Scheduling of legislation is the job of the Majority Leader. Bills can be brought to the floor whenever a majority of the Senate chooses. 2. Debate House: Debate is limited by the rules formulated in the Rules Committee. The Committee of the Whole debates and amends the bill but cannot technically pass it. Debate is guided by the Sponsoring Committee and time is divided equally between proponents and opponents. The Committee decides how much time to allot to each person. Amendments must be germane to the subject of a bill - no riders are allowed. The bill is reported back to the House (to itself) and is voted on. A quorum call is a vote to make sure that there are enough members present (218) to have a final vote. If there is not a quorum, the House will adjourn or will send the Sergeant at Arms out to round up missing members. Senate: debate is unlimited unless cloture is invoked. Members can speak as long as they want and amendments need not be germane - riders are often offered. Entire bills can therefore be offered as amendments to other bills. Unless cloture is invoked, Senators can use a filibuster to defeat a measure by "talking it to death." 3. Vote - the bill is voted on. If passed, it is then sent to the other chamber unless that chamber already has a similar measure under consideration. If either chamber does not pass the bill then it dies. If the House and Senate pass the same bill then it is sent to the President. If the House and Senate pass different bills they are sent to Conference Committee. Most major legislation goes to a Conference Committee. D. Conference Committee 1. Members from each house form a conference committee and meet to work out the differences. The committee is usually made up of senior members who are appointed by the presiding officers of the committee that originally dealt with the bill. The representatives from each house work to maintain their version of the bill. 2. If the Conference Committee reaches a compromise, it prepares a written conference report, which is submitted to each chamber. 3. The conference report must be approved by both the House and the Senate. E. The President - the bill is sent to the President for review. 1. A bill becomes law if signed by the President or if not signed within 10 days and Congress is in session. 2. If Congress adjourns before the 10 days and the President has not signed the bill then it does not become law ("Pocket Veto.") 3. If the President vetoes the bill it is sent back to Congress with a note listing his/her reasons. The chamber that originated the legislation can attempt to override the veto by a vote of two-thirds of those present. If the veto of the bill is overridden in both chambers then it becomes law. F. The Bill Becomes A Law - once a bill is signed by the President or his veto is overridden by both houses it becomes a law and is assigned an official number. Uh, Doan, that's NOT by majority vote. That's representative government at work. We vote for the people. They then, as our representatives vote for the laws. AFfromDreamLand -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
#25
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What would you do if.....
Doan wrote:
On 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: And when have "most" of any group been a valid argument for ANY cause? It's not how many agree. It's how valid their claims. And who will determine it? To say that parents are unreasonable because they chose to spank is itself "unreasonable". The argument of the slavery proponents, and opponents of women's sufferage. False analogy! No it's not. There are three up there. In one way or another each apply to the issue. The relationship between parents/children is different. Yes, and that's been the excuse for slavery and women's suppression. Please learn to read, and try doing it in libraries instead of on line. You are not arguing that slave owners should use non-cp alternatives to discipline their slaves, are you?? Why would I do that? A slave by definition, unless there are specific laws protecting them, R R R R, and there are and were, are subject to whatever the slave owner wishes to do with them. Notice it's not legal to have slaves in this country? There will be a law protecting children from assault now labeled "spanking." AFfromDreamLand Kane -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
#26
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What would you do if.....
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: Correction *** Doan wrote: On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote: Doan Wrote: reasonable: (rz-n-bl) adj. 1. Capable of reasoning; rational: a reasonable person. 2. Governed by or being in accordance with reason or sound thinking: a reasonable solution to the problem. 3. Being within the bounds of common sense: arrive home at a reasonable hour. 4. Not excessive or extreme; fair: reasonable prices. So I take it that it is not "reasonable" to spank you kids, according to you? Doan Very good Doan. It is Unreasonable to spank any child, for any reason. Children are precious, Parents are supposed to love them care for them teach them guide them into productive adulthood. Spanking has been upheld by the courts (even the Supreme Court) as "reasonable". It might be "unreasonable" to you but to most parents in the U.S., it is "reasonable". We are not a majority rules society. You can relax that argument now, or retire it. *** Laws are NOT made by majority rule. Hahaha! Realllly??? You must have skipped Government 101! You must not understand what you are reading. I just pointed out it's NOT majority rule. It's representative rule, by vote. Representative of what? Of a minority? ;-) And that, little child, is why a law is coming your way, as it has all over the world, and in our school systems. Yup! I heard it's coming in eleven days! ;-) AFfromDreamLand |
#27
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What would you do if.....
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: And when have "most" of any group been a valid argument for ANY cause? It's not how many agree. It's how valid their claims. And who will determine it? To say that parents are unreasonable because they chose to spank is itself "unreasonable". The argument of the slavery proponents, and opponents of women's sufferage. False analogy! No it's not. There are three up there. In one way or another each apply to the issue. Yes, it is. There's no more slaves; there will always be children. Women can vote; children can not ever expected be! The relationship between parents/children is different. Yes, and that's been the excuse for slavery and women's suppression. Please learn to read, and try doing it in libraries instead of on line. Hahaha! Learn to use logic, ignoranus kane0! You are not arguing that slave owners should use non-cp alternatives to discipline their slaves, are you?? Why would I do that? A slave by definition, unless there are specific laws protecting them, R R R R, and there are and were, are subject to whatever the slave owner wishes to do with them. What? There "are" laws protecting slaves? Are you this stupid? ;-) Notice it's not legal to have slaves in this country? But it's legal to have children! There will be a law protecting children from assault now labeled "spanking." But parents can still use non-cp alternatives to PUNISH them, yes? How is that the same as the slave/master relationship? Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS... are they mutually exclusive? ;-) Doan |
#28
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What would you do if.....
Doan wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: Correction *** Doan wrote: On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote: Doan Wrote: reasonable: (rz-n-bl) adj. 1. Capable of reasoning; rational: a reasonable person. 2. Governed by or being in accordance with reason or sound thinking: a reasonable solution to the problem. 3. Being within the bounds of common sense: arrive home at a reasonable hour. 4. Not excessive or extreme; fair: reasonable prices. So I take it that it is not "reasonable" to spank you kids, according to you? Doan Very good Doan. It is Unreasonable to spank any child, for any reason. Children are precious, Parents are supposed to love them care for them teach them guide them into productive adulthood. Spanking has been upheld by the courts (even the Supreme Court) as "reasonable". It might be "unreasonable" to you but to most parents in the U.S., it is "reasonable". We are not a majority rules society. You can relax that argument now, or retire it. *** Laws are NOT made by majority rule. Hahaha! Realllly??? You must have skipped Government 101! You must not understand what you are reading. I just pointed out it's NOT majority rule. It's representative rule, by vote. Representative of what? Of a minority? ;-) Yes. Exactly that. People who may be in the minority for some reason, or any reason, are not only protected in our system, they have very real power. You never have taken a PoliSci class, have you? We are not a "democracy," as in pure democracy. More properly we have a system called a representative democracy. 1500 people in an out of the way district in Montana get to elect a representative that goes to congress and has ONE vote per issue, against a congressman or women elected in a district of 5 or 6 million people, and again, one vote per issue. That is the essence of our system and the distribution of power to remove the change, as Ben said below, an unarmed lamb being invited by two wolves to dinner. In addition if you read the constitution, and especially the BOR carefully you see our rights RECOGNIZED (Doan't forget that word) so that regardless we each have equal power under law. Even children have it, but since they cannot exercise it personally others do that for them. And when their power is usurped by the very ones that are supposed to protect them our society, through law, does so. That is why, Doan't, the law is coming to protect children. And that, little child, is why a law is coming your way, as it has all over the world, and in our school systems. Yup! I heard it's coming in eleven days! ;-) That's nice to hear. Whatever time it takes it's as sure as women's suffurage, the end of child labor, and the abolition of slavery that each came in their time. It's worth the doing. If you have children I hope you won't be among the first to be disciplined by the law. 0:- AFfromDreamLand -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
#29
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What would you do if.....
Doan wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: And when have "most" of any group been a valid argument for ANY cause? It's not how many agree. It's how valid their claims. And who will determine it? To say that parents are unreasonable because they chose to spank is itself "unreasonable". The argument of the slavery proponents, and opponents of women's sufferage. False analogy! No it's not. There are three up there. In one way or another each apply to the issue. Yes, it is. There's no more slaves; there will always be children. Women can vote; children can not ever expected be! Please show the part that's false. The relationship between parents/children is different. Yes, and that's been the excuse for slavery and women's suppression. Please learn to read, and try doing it in libraries instead of on line. Hahaha! Learn to use logic, ignoranus kane0! I did. As I said, that excuse has been used for a very long time to assault children. Time and numbers of people using it doesn't legitimize it morally. You are not arguing that slave owners should use non-cp alternatives to discipline their slaves, are you?? Why would I do that? A slave by definition, unless there are specific laws protecting them, R R R R, and there are and were, are subject to whatever the slave owner wishes to do with them. What? There "are" laws protecting slaves? Are you this stupid? ;-) No, but you are. Anti slavery laws protect slaves. Is that not correct? Notice it's not legal to have slaves in this country? But it's legal to have children! Yes, which brings us to the question, what is legal to do to them. And we intend changing that. And for the same moral reasons one can no longer enslave others, and women have the vote and all rights men have. There will be a law protecting children from assault now labeled "spanking." But parents can still use non-cp alternatives to PUNISH them, yes? You are changing the subject. How is that the same as the slave/master relationship? It isn't. But if you think so, demonstrate to us how they are the same. Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS... are they mutually exclusive? ;-) No, but you and logic are certainly strangers to each other. 0:- Doan -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
#30
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What would you do if.....
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote:
Doan wrote: On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: Doan wrote: On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, 0:- wrote: Correction *** Doan wrote: On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote: Doan Wrote: reasonable: (rz-n-bl) adj. 1. Capable of reasoning; rational: a reasonable person. 2. Governed by or being in accordance with reason or sound thinking: a reasonable solution to the problem. 3. Being within the bounds of common sense: arrive home at a reasonable hour. 4. Not excessive or extreme; fair: reasonable prices. So I take it that it is not "reasonable" to spank you kids, according to you? Doan Very good Doan. It is Unreasonable to spank any child, for any reason. Children are precious, Parents are supposed to love them care for them teach them guide them into productive adulthood. Spanking has been upheld by the courts (even the Supreme Court) as "reasonable". It might be "unreasonable" to you but to most parents in the U.S., it is "reasonable". We are not a majority rules society. You can relax that argument now, or retire it. *** Laws are NOT made by majority rule. Hahaha! Realllly??? You must have skipped Government 101! You must not understand what you are reading. I just pointed out it's NOT majority rule. It's representative rule, by vote. Representative of what? Of a minority? ;-) Yes. Exactly that. People who may be in the minority for some reason, or any reason, are not only protected in our system, they have very real power. You never have taken a PoliSci class, have you? Hihihi! Are you so STUPID as to make such a claim in public? We are not a "democracy," as in pure democracy. More properly we have a system called a representative democracy. We are a democracy, a representative democracy. We not a "direct democracy" but we are a "democracy! To say that we are not a democracy is simply idiotic! 1500 people in an out of the way district in Montana get to elect a representative that goes to congress and has ONE vote per issue, against a congressman or women elected in a district of 5 or 6 million people, and again, one vote per issue. Then why does California has more representatives than Alaska, ignoranus kane0? AFfromDreamLand |
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