Mayor dumps on ACS - 'Disgrace' is Mike's label for agency's file-toss fiasco

All I said was OOpsie!

Kane knee jerks to defend the agency with his windbagging.


0:- wrote:
Greegor wrote:
OOpsie!

Here's a thought for you.

What if the agency is not the perp in the records dumping?

Drive, walk or crawl on your slimy belly up to most office complexes,
and watch for a few weeks, and sooner or later you are very likely to
see a large van, or sometimes even a semi-rig and trailer park outside,
and you'll here them power-up some very large machinery.

They are there as contractors to shred and securely discard tons of
records. (The article suggests to me these were outdated and due for
destruction, possibly after transfer to electronic or microfiche).

On occasion even postal delivery people have been caught dumping mail
from their route simply to be able to sit on their asses for the day.

It does not mean the postal service condons or would not discipline
such actions.

Now WHO dumped these is the question.

That claim of a large amount of records sounds suspiciously like a
contractor may have saved himself a few bucks, or his equipment blew
out and he couldn't fullfill his contract and dumped rather than risk
losing the contract.

Never presume the media has all the story, or tells all the story if
they have it.

That's why, Greg, when I post a story ... say like the social worker
murdering couple I don't jump to conclusions, and I don't accept the
first story as being complete, and I continue to monitor it.

YOU, on the other hand, along the way, make any and all conclusions
that satisfy your agenda for blame and anti authority childish acting
out, all along the way, even 'forgetting' prior bits of the sequence of
news releases.

I think that might be called situational hysteria.

Notice the story was first posted without comment?

I would assume Dan was interested in seeing the outcome, if it comes.

We have to rely on the media for more info.

Likely we won't get it. Not enough blood to be shed.

AND if it turns out that it was a contractor dumping, it likely will be
buried bottom, centerfold, midway back -- if seen at all. It would't up
readership/circulation, thus not adding to the revenue from advertising
that is based on circulation.

You see, Greg, we are ALL in it for the money.

By the way, are you, as is claim here being harassed, or feeling as if
you are?

If so why do you keep coming back?

Could it have, as it does with me, something to do with your first
amendment rights and a refusal to give them up just because you are
criticized? Or "harassed?"

0:-]

Oppsie!

Nearly forgot. Your agenda:

Tell us about...
1 - Dan the felonious quoter
2 - How to use a confession of crime to win against CPS and ...
3 - How soon you will have the correction amended to the Congressional
record.

And thanks, Greg. I know you'll do the right thing. K

Greegor wrote:

All I said was OOpsie!

Kane knee jerks to defend the agency with his windbagging.

Kane wrote, "What if the agency is not the perp in the records
dumping?"

And "Now WHO dumped these is the question."

I don't see where Kane defended anyone.

Do you have credible evidence that CPS was responsible for this
mistake, Greg?

Michael© wrote:
"Dan Sullivan" wrote in
oups.com:


Greegor wrote:

All I said was OOpsie!

Kane knee jerks to defend the agency with his windbagging.

Kane wrote, "What if the agency is not the perp in the records
dumping?"

And "Now WHO dumped these is the question."

I don't see where Kane defended anyone.

Do you have credible evidence that CPS was responsible for this
mistake, Greg?

CPS was the holder of these records, which makes them 'responsible' for
them and that these documents were found on a corner is evidence in itself
that CPS dropped the ball somewhere.

And if it was the carting service who left the garbage bag by the curb?

Even if the records were to be destroyed by an outside shredding service,
CPS remains responsible for them and should have had an employee witness
the shredding of these sensitive documents.

And if it was the carting service who left the garbage bag by the curb?

Michael© wrote:
"Dan Sullivan" wrote in
ups.com:


Michael© wrote:
"Dan Sullivan" wrote in
oups.com:


Greegor wrote:

All I said was OOpsie!

Kane knee jerks to defend the agency with his windbagging.

Kane wrote, "What if the agency is not the perp in the records
dumping?"

And "Now WHO dumped these is the question."

I don't see where Kane defended anyone.

Do you have credible evidence that CPS was responsible for this
mistake, Greg?

CPS was the holder of these records, which makes them 'responsible' for
them and that these documents were found on a corner is evidence in
itself that CPS dropped the ball somewhere.

And if it was the carting service who left the garbage bag by the curb?

I didn't see mention of a carting service in the article you posted.

From the article I posted "...in a clear plastic garbage bag outside
ACS offices on E. 29th St. and First Ave."

Michael© wrote:
"Dan Sullivan" wrote in
ups.com:


Michael© wrote:
"Dan Sullivan" wrote in
oups.com:


Greegor wrote:

All I said was OOpsie!

Kane knee jerks to defend the agency with his windbagging.

Kane wrote, "What if the agency is not the perp in the records
dumping?"

And "Now WHO dumped these is the question."

I don't see where Kane defended anyone.

Do you have credible evidence that CPS was responsible for this
mistake, Greg?

CPS was the holder of these records, which makes them 'responsible' for
them and that these documents were found on a corner is evidence in
itself that CPS dropped the ball somewhere.

And if it was the carting service who left the garbage bag by the curb?

I didn't see mention of a carting service in the article you posted.

From the article I posted "...in a clear plastic garbage bag outside
ACS offices on E. 29th St. and First Ave."

Michael© wrote:
"Dan Sullivan" wrote in
oups.com:


Greegor wrote:

All I said was OOpsie!

Kane knee jerks to defend the agency with his windbagging.

Kane wrote, "What if the agency is not the perp in the records
dumping?"

And "Now WHO dumped these is the question."

I don't see where Kane defended anyone.

Do you have credible evidence that CPS was responsible for this
mistake, Greg?

CPS was the holder of these records, which makes them 'responsible' for
them and that these documents were found on a corner is evidence in itself
that CPS dropped the ball somewhere.

Even if the records were to be destroyed by an outside shredding service,
CPS remains responsible for them and should have had an employee witness
the shredding of these sensitive documents.

The companies that win these contracts must provide bonded employees. A
surety bond of considerable size. Their contract is usually quiet
lucrative because they are also paid to haul and recycle
non-confidential records.

Now some states, or regions, or even branch offices might not do this
but my understand is that municopalites tend to contract for entire
area...big bucks.

So, tell us, if the state police arrest someone and say temporarily
lodge them in a county or city jail, are they responsible because they
didn't station a 24./7 watch on the perp?

I'm always amazed by your logic.

Yes, "responsibilty" is vested in the CPS, but it is also vested in
vendors they contract for.

And their only recourse is to trust the vendor and if the vendor fails,
to fire and or penalized even charge with civil and criminal violations
if that is called for.

Just like the rest of the world, Michael.

Or they can spend MORE money for MORE people do MORE oversight, and
still have system failures, just like the rest of the world.

If it was a vendor (actually I doubt it, but I like to look at all
possibility BEFORE A FINDING OR JUDGEMENT...instead of run bull****
accustions and blame convictions of folks BEFORE THE FACTS ARE ALL IN)
then I suspect either they will be fired, or new precautions worked on.


Why is it that CPS must be perfect, Michael? Even the cops get more
slack and they make mistakes that kill people.

Would you like to join the "Greg mob" and hang the CPS workers before
the facts are in?

Kane








--
Michael©

Greegor wrote:
All I said was OOpsie!

Which means?

Kane knee jerks to defend the agency with his windbagging.

I offered no defense.

If it turns out my scenario took place, they are off the hook.

If it turns out someone in the agency dumped the records they are not.

It's really simple, Greg.

We are simply speculating now, unless your "OOpsie!" implies positive
guilt.

Does it?

And you seem totally unconcerned at Michael's long and interesting
speculation of his own.

Why is that I wonder?

0:-



0:- wrote:
Greegor wrote:
OOpsie!

Here's a thought for you.

What if the agency is not the perp in the records dumping?

Drive, walk or crawl on your slimy belly up to most office complexes,
and watch for a few weeks, and sooner or later you are very likely to
see a large van, or sometimes even a semi-rig and trailer park outside,
and you'll here them power-up some very large machinery.

They are there as contractors to shred and securely discard tons of
records. (The article suggests to me these were outdated and due for
destruction, possibly after transfer to electronic or microfiche).

On occasion even postal delivery people have been caught dumping mail
from their route simply to be able to sit on their asses for the day.

It does not mean the postal service condons or would not discipline
such actions.

Now WHO dumped these is the question.

That claim of a large amount of records sounds suspiciously like a
contractor may have saved himself a few bucks, or his equipment blew
out and he couldn't fullfill his contract and dumped rather than risk
losing the contract.

Never presume the media has all the story, or tells all the story if
they have it.

That's why, Greg, when I post a story ... say like the social worker
murdering couple I don't jump to conclusions, and I don't accept the
first story as being complete, and I continue to monitor it.

YOU, on the other hand, along the way, make any and all conclusions
that satisfy your agenda for blame and anti authority childish acting
out, all along the way, even 'forgetting' prior bits of the sequence of
news releases.

I think that might be called situational hysteria.

Notice the story was first posted without comment?

I would assume Dan was interested in seeing the outcome, if it comes.

We have to rely on the media for more info.

Likely we won't get it. Not enough blood to be shed.

AND if it turns out that it was a contractor dumping, it likely will be
buried bottom, centerfold, midway back -- if seen at all. It would't up
readership/circulation, thus not adding to the revenue from advertising
that is based on circulation.

You see, Greg, we are ALL in it for the money.

By the way, are you, as is claim here being harassed, or feeling as if
you are?

If so why do you keep coming back?

Could it have, as it does with me, something to do with your first
amendment rights and a refusal to give them up just because you are
criticized? Or "harassed?"

0:-]

Oppsie!

Nearly forgot. Your agenda:

Tell us about...
1 - Dan the felonious quoter
2 - How to use a confession of crime to win against CPS and ...
3 - How soon you will have the correction amended to the Congressional
record.

And thanks, Greg. I know you'll do the right thing. K

Michael© wrote:
"0:-" wrote in
ups.com:


Michael© wrote:
"Dan Sullivan" wrote in
oups.com:


Greegor wrote:

All I said was OOpsie!

Kane knee jerks to defend the agency with his windbagging.

Kane wrote, "What if the agency is not the perp in the records
dumping?"

And "Now WHO dumped these is the question."

I don't see where Kane defended anyone.

Do you have credible evidence that CPS was responsible for this
mistake, Greg?

CPS was the holder of these records, which makes them 'responsible' for
them and that these documents were found on a corner is evidence in
itself that CPS dropped the ball somewhere.

Even if the records were to be destroyed by an outside shredding
service, CPS remains responsible for them and should have had an
employee witness the shredding of these sensitive documents.

The companies that win these contracts must provide bonded employees. A
surety bond of considerable size. Their contract is usually quiet
lucrative because they are also paid to haul and recycle
non-confidential records.

Now some states, or regions, or even branch offices might not do this
but my understand is that municopalites tend to contract for entire
area...big bucks.

Your point is understandable based on the assumption that ACS contracted
out the job of destroying records. More information gathered from another
article seems to imply that each office floor had existing facilities
whereby documents were to be shredded weekly. If these documents were
from 2000-2001 as the article states, they were way past due for the
weekly shredding and someone at ACS dropped the ball.

I missed the article and have not had time to review those posts in the
thread from here up...except in a perfunctory way, so my responses
should be taken with a grain of salt.

But in about 220 road miles today...errands. Tractor parts, fencing
materials, some turkey accessories to buy. 0:-]

Your information makes it much less likely contractors would have been
involved, or if they were, that they had been given access to the
materials.

There is only a slight chance that they rested in some place AFTER
leaving the office via a vendor and were not discovered until now.

However, I'd like to aquaint you with at least one state's
methods....no, they are NOT schedule for weekly shredding. Those were,
if I remember correctly CASE files not just raw casenotes. Those are
usually shredded "at the desk" so to speak, usually a station with a
schreader on top of a barrel or large wastebasket. No contractor sees
raw notes...or should not unless there was some screwup.

I'll check the only article I've read and jump back here if there's
anything to report.

tic tic tic....

Back...

Hmmm...the media can be SUCH a pain in the ass at times. They don't
listen carefully and don't make a point of learning the right questions
to ask.

The "files" came from an investigative unit apparently.

They could actually be the raw notes files, rather than the "case
record" files. I can't say for sure, but I'm betting we ARE talking
about raw notes from investigation, and NOT an ongoing files cache.

The years do suggest that they weren't electronically filed though. And
wer in paper form as both...raw notes and case record.

Actually I have a MORE blameful take on this than most here.

To separate, as is possible from my read of the article Dan provided,
raw investigators notes from the actual physical file jacket is HUGE
no no. Workers have certainly been disciplined fo this...usually though
clerical staff as they have charge of filing chores...and moving the
record jacket from unit to unit as the case changes, and a different
worker recieves the RECORD.

I'm now better on a clerical screwup and I can see the glitch and the
fix both.

Computer systems I have worked on solved this long ago.

Here's a speculative scenario...please mention to Greg, he won't listen
to me, that we, at least "I" and not saying this happened and it's
certainly not an "excuse."

Notes hit desk of initial investigator. Some result in a case being
opened (and some do not) ...case record jacket is created, and begins
to fill with preliminary forms, raw notes, filled in interview forms
mostly...not the assessment as yet most likely from the description of
the "records" found.

Jacket gets a few as yet unfilled forms placed in it by clerical for
unit ONE, we'll call it. They pass the jacket, with the stack of raw
notes to unit TWO, we'll call it. At unit two the clerical staff begins
sorting the various notes and forms into sections in the jacket (they
exist for different issues of the case, each labeled.)

Raw notes are NOT placed in the file, nor are they shredded. There's
the glitch. No one is following that jacket that knows it from the
beginning and will to the end.

Damned hard to do actually, much tougher and expensive than one might
think. Worker turn over alone breaks the chain.

The trick is to create a feedback system to one responsible
station...it actually should be a nastly little program that stops the
flow if a step is missed or does not take place and is recorded within
a time span (I've built these).

NOTHING ****es management off more than some task grinding to a halt
because the checks were missed. R R R R R

So, tell us, if the state police arrest someone and say temporarily
lodge them in a county or city jail, are they responsible because they
didn't station a 24./7 watch on the perp?

Responsible for what?

OOppsie! As Greg would say. I must be tired. Left out a sentence. The
perp gets away, escapes, harms others. etc etc etc.

They are required to be monitored 24/7, Don. By remote video or behind
the one-way mirrored glass in the sally port.

Yes, but by whom? The state cops had jurisdiction...they passed it on,
for the perposes of holding, to the county, say.

You would have, using the analogy, the state cops responsible for
county losing this guy.

State cops = CPS, County Jailers = Security Shreding Vendor.

Passing people as analogous to passing paper.


When someone is taken into custody, whether for a violent crime or even
drunkenness, the department is completely responsible for their safety
against injury and suicides.

Well, confusion forgives the loss of the thread of thought here I
guess.

The "department" in my analogy was two departments, state and county.

Arresting officers, state; holding jailers, county.


I'm always amazed by your logic.

Yes, "responsibilty" is vested in the CPS, but it is also vested in
vendors they contract for.

And it appears they had no need for outside vendors to shred documents.
These should have been shredded years ago by someone walking to the
secured shredder and doing so.

I agree. Nevertheless some places have chosen, mostly because of volume
and cost cutting imposed by the legislature (please blame the actual
perps) that required contracts to outside privatising efforts.

I don't know if you remember, but I have been pretty ****y here about
privatising government reponsibilities. These are exactly the kinds of
things I expect to happen, and do happen. It's even MORE serious when
foster children are involved.

Privatizing is neither cost effective, or secure, and it sure as hell
isn't efficient. In this I agree with all who protest funding...because
it's misuse of funding in my book.


And their only recourse is to trust the vendor and if the vendor fails,
to fire and or penalized even charge with civil and criminal violations
if that is called for.

If they had a vendor and their job was to shred documents at the secured
shredder on the very same floor where the documents are used.

That would be a good idea. That's not what's done in some instances I
have witnessed.

Secure containers are used for sensitive records. Like the paper notes
of transcribed investigation now on the computer.

Those barrels, as that is what they are, are handcarted to the vendors
truck and crew inside it with the shredders and there the notes are
turned to contract specific confetti.


Just like the rest of the world, Michael.

Or they can spend MORE money for MORE people do MORE oversight, and
still have system failures, just like the rest of the world.

If it was a vendor (actually I doubt it, but I like to look at all
possibility BEFORE A FINDING OR JUDGEMENT...instead of run bull****
accustions and blame convictions of folks BEFORE THE FACTS ARE ALL IN)
then I suspect either they will be fired, or new precautions worked on.


Why is it that CPS must be perfect, Michael? Even the cops get more
slack and they make mistakes that kill people.

I don't demand any agency be perfect.

One does not have to use those words, Michael, when seen mounting
arguments that in fact WOULD require that perfection was demanded.
There is a constant thread here that allows for NO human error factor.

Every error, including most obviously human error we are ALL prone to
are attacked and the perps made into instant PERPS, who must be whipped
and bloodied, then fired.

You've seen it here.

The perpetrators of this bull**** do NOT try to extract any facts that
contradict there bloodbath scenario, and thus they offer NO opportunity
to consider actual reform measures for a problem.

But when dealing with the lives of
children they damn well better try and not make the same mistakes twice.

Your very statement proves my point, Michael. You sound threatening.
You sound like you do not believe that people make the same mistake
more than once as a matter of course.

There are NO humans like you just demanded, Michael.

There are many ways to make the very same mistake.

One time it can be the wrong vendor. Another a wrong proceedural plan.
And another, a criminal minded person deliberately stealing. And have
it still be that records escape control and go into the wild, as it
were.

And here, Michael, that's treated as ONE mistake repeated three times.

I've seen it. You've seen it, and this has turned this newsgroup into a
pile of ****, with nothing being done, except by Dan, to actually help
parents that come here.

I tried for a long time to drag it back again and again to "helping
parents."

You've seen how that went. And you've participated in it.

Stop it. Stop it NOW.

Would you like to join the "Greg mob" and hang the CPS workers before
the facts are in?

I'm placing blame on ACS based on what I have read and for the moment, and
most likely, some supervisor in that floor of ACS didn't shred when they
should have.

Supervisors don't shred, and the proceedure may not have been to shred
in situ.

Have you never seen those shredder semi's or box vans pull in and spend
a whole night doing a whole building's shreading?

Go to the system problem. Stop trying to blame some poor ditz that has
NO control over the decisions made at admin level and in the
legislature, by the good ol' boys.


Kane








--
Michael©





--
Michael©

We argue ****ery, Michael.

Sort through, think about it. KNOW that if YOU are in the system about
yours that is true for CPS as well.

Sometimes you are backed into a corner where you cannot do it right.
The system blocks you from doing so, because it takes the control out
of your hands.

When I first debated Doug here, one of the first things we did was
agree on the need for experienced, well educated social workers, MSWs.

This to me would filter down to all staff levels. PAY industrial and
business wages, get talented skilled people. Keep them trained.

Why isn't this happening as much as it should to reduce the things we
are criticising about?

Services on the cheap...and you know that equals vote getting by
politicos.

The public wants the child protection problem solves out of sight and
on the cheap.

It's really that simple.

I've been in all kinds of state buildings in four states, Michael, and
CPS is always housed in the worst stinking hellholes. Building
converted from old supermarkets. Old brick outdated building held
together with sandy mortar and roofing paper and tar a foot and half
thick...and no, I'm not making this up...I've inspected such buildings,
walked those roofs, pulled bricks right out of foundations of buildings
four stories tall ... yes, BRICK foundations.

I can think of one that is one of those "Historical" protected
edifices, where CPS had a regional office of about 45 people, and
clients and kids coming through all day. That's the one I just
described.

I was in it and did the whole building in 1998. It still stands. It's
still on bricks. It still on a sandbased liquifying in and earthquake
soil type, and the roof is still tonnes and tonnes of paper and tar.

Just going through made me quesy. Imagine working there, and seeing
children and parents there.

And it stank.

And it had a restaurant on the ground floor that had a fire every damn
year in the stove vent hoods.

Once burnt a wooden structure clear off the back of the building. The
FIRE ESCAPE, of course. People were forced to take the elevator
out...the same one I was stuck on once and got out by the
basement..with NO puckering lights.

I sent a report on that building to OSHA.

It's there. I hasn't changed. And it's 2007, almost.

This is NOT unusual. Another office has had about four stickups with
injuries each year, of workers and clients at the front door, on the
street and in the parking lot.

Can they get an armed security guard? Nope. The image might scare
families away and they would not come in for appointments.

The worst building in the region? There are five branch offices, and
one regional office.

The regional one is in a one story converted market in a strip mall,
and talk about stink. Crowded to the point staff must move forward for
people passing through the walkways for them to get by.

The lies told here about funding and CPS make me sick, because I've
seen these things and KNOW people here are lying.

Foster parents have to come in and clean and decorate the visiting
rooms the budgets are so short. Furniture is donated. They can't even
buy ****in' simple children's furniture.

If you are in the system and know these things you should be able to
figure out why I'm so disgusted with your attacking CPS with mindless
bull**** that ignores reality.

Thanks for the information you provided. When I get rested up from my
trip, and have my wood pile caught up I'll see if I can find time to
read the additional information and offer my thoughts.

And in the meantime, I don't care WHAT you or anyone else says, CPS is
the poor step sister of ALL government agencies and runs on fumes.

I've smelled them everytime I've worked with relatives to foster and
adopt their kin.

0:- wrote:

....I have a kind of last thought on this...since all we can do is
speculate.

Even the most well thought out guess can be wrong. Experience in the
real world tells us that damn near every day.

So here's my thought.

If a CPS employee had some reason to dump these records why in the hell
didn't they take them somewhere they would not be so easily found?

Put yourself in the dumper's place.

If you were an employee with responsibility for these files and you had
some motive to throw them out would you not...since EVERYONE KNOWS YOU
ARE RESPONSIBLE, take them as far away as possible, say deep six them
with a shovel, or burn them out in the boonies, or at least store them
in your basement and really hide them.

But dump them on the corner?

Come ON people.

This is unpleasant to say, because I have a very soft spot for certain
limited folks. I've not only worked with them, I've helped with program
funding.

But many CPS offices have taken to hiring the developmentally disabled.


They serve often in 'mailroom' work, which includes a lot of paper
moving, and in fact shredding.

Now one could catch them not finishing a batch. But one could not catch
them if they DIDN'T DO IT ALL AND AND DISAPPEARED THEM.

And it would be logical for a limited person to not be able to think
through cause and effect sufficiently so they didn't get that the
garbage service pickup might just discover what was in the garbage.

Anyone considered that?

"Harold did you finish the shredding? Yep. I put it in the recycle
bins.

But Harold didn't shred first. Believe it or not, and anyone here
that's worked with folks with similar limitations knows this is true,
'Harold' may not understand the signficance of his action.

Harold can get confused about sequence. Harold can forget. Harold can
actually believe he DID shred. Harold wants to please.

Do you want to march him out in front of the public and hang him for
his error?

Now jump in with your "yes butts," but, listen to mine.

Get into the REAL WORLD.

Regardless of the 'sensitivity' this is exactly the kind of work that
does go to folks with less 'capacity.' All businesses and agencies,
what have you, work on a cost benefit ratio, or they do not exist for
long.

Do you really think that MSWs time is going to be used shredding and
hauling to the recycle bins?

Michael© wrote:
"0:-" wrote in
ups.com:

.. . .
So, tell us, if the state police arrest someone and say temporarily
lodge them in a county or city jail, are they responsible because they
didn't station a 24./7 watch on the perp?

Sorry that I missed the 'state' in the above. I will correct my answer.

No, the State Police would not be responsible for their safety. Whoever
accepted him or her would be.

The facts we have now leans toward someone in ACS not doing their
shredding as policy appears to demand. So if the State Police didn't pass
him or her off on another agency, who would retain responsibility?

Don't ask rhetorical questions. Just state your claim.

I'm always amazed by your logic.


I'm interested in seeing the policy.

I'll probably look tomorrow but if you've a notion I'd appreciate it if
you would point to the message, or the policy if you goggled it up.

Often when such "responsibility" is assigned it is not blocked from
being contracted for.

If this were not so we wouldn't have the horror show that is
"privatization," in human services. A crock is what it is.


I agree with your assessment. The problem now is, what someone?

And what the hell would be their mental capacity if the dump on the
nearby corner?

Would YOU if you wished to get rid of files YOU were known to be
responsible for dump them on a nearby corner?

Come on, Michael, think this one out.

Something very weird happened, and I doubt it was a malicious lazy, or
otherwise evil worker.

Someone screwed up and didn't know how to straighten it out in a normal
fashion, like: "I forgot to shred, can I do it in the morning," and ran
to the nearest trash with it thinking the garbage people would take it
away.

Would a normal person think like that?

And knock off the Gregorian "Deliberately Evil CPS Workers Who Want to
Be Caught Dumping Record," bull****. That's for feebs like Greg.

I don't like some of your comments, but you aren't that far gone.

Something is fishy. What do you think might really have happened.

Why were those records dumped, and who would have done it in the manner
it happened?