New Study Slams Spanking

On Tue, 4 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:



Doan wrote:

Ivan Gowch wrote:
[snip]
: The children who were spanked early in life were also more likely to
: be described by their parents as having behavior problems and being
: sad or depressed when they hit school age.

This may be because children who were spanked early in life behaved
worse and experienced more depression later on as a result. Or it might
be because children with a predisposition to oppositional behavior and
depression are spanked at earlier ages as a result of this. However, if
the latter interpretation is correct, it would also indicate that spanking
did not succeed in making these children less oppositional and less
depressed later in childhood, and that alternatives should be used which
work better than spanking.

Chris


Which alternatives would that be, Chris?

The alternatives used by parents of children who were not spanked early
in life, doan.

Which are...?

Do you read?

Do you ? The study said:

"no information was available on other punishments used by parents"

Children in this study who were not
spanked early in life were less likely to be described by their parents
as having behavior problems and being sad or depressed when they hit
school age. What do you think those parents who didn't spank were doing?
They were using alternatives.

Really? That is not what the author of this study said:

"Other forms of punishment may also have been associated with subsequent
child behavior problems, but it was not possible to explore those
associations using these data."

Good grief, doan.

Good grief, lavonne! :-)

Doan

On Tue, 4 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:



Doan wrote:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/113/5/1321

Note the part about African-American and Hispanics:
"Among children in this sample, spanking frequency before age 2 was a
substantial predictor of a child's risk for behavior problems at school
age for white non-Hispanic children only."

So all children who are not "white non-Hispanic" deserve to be hit due
to their ethnicity?

Good grief, Lavonne! :-) Read the study! It only said they saw no
correlation!


Also note that no one here is recommending spanking for children under
two years of age!

Baloney. The great "Dr. Dobson" has been touted on the ng for years.
He recommends spanking children as soon as they show signs of defiance,
which he states is around 18 months of age. My limited understanding of
math leads me to conclude that children under 18 months of age are less
than two years old.

But children younger than 18 months of age are also included in this
study. Even with your "limited understanding of math", you would have
seen this! ;-)

Doan

Hey doan,

Read Power and Chapieski yet, or are you still dealing with smoke
screens? Read the study and let's debate.

LaVonne

Doan wrote:

On Tue, 4 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:



Ivan Gowch wrote:


The impact of spanking has been the topic of a number of studies --
most with mixed results. The latest research is one of the first to
look at the impact of spanking on youngsters under 2.

I'm referring to the 1986 study by Power and Chapieski, "Childrearing
and Impulse Control in Toddlers: A Naturalistic Investigation." Most
disturbing are two conclusions: "...infants of physically punishing
mothers showed the lowest levels of compliance and were most likely to
manipulate breakable objects during observations...." and "...infants
whose mothers relied on physical punishment showed lower Bayley scores
at 21 months, especially for the nonverbal items." (Power and
Chapieski, 1989, p. 273).

No matter how much research is conducted, results are always the same.
Spanking is a risk factor in children's lives. Spanking correlates with
short and long term negative outcomes. There is no logical or moral
reason to spank a child of any age.


Can you show me one study where correlations are different with regard to
non-cp alternatives under the same conditions?

"Perhaps the most difficult methodological problem in research on the
effects of CP is posed by the the fact that child behavior problems lead
parents to spank. Thus the repeated finding that the more CP parents use,
the worse the behavior problems of the child does not necessarily show
that CP has harmful effects, or even that CP is not effective in reducing
misbehavior (as I erroneously argued in the past)."

Straus admitted his error. Can you do the same?

Doan

Doan wrote:

On Tue, 4 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:


Do you ? The study said:

"no information was available on other punishments used by parents"


Children in this study who were not
spanked early in life were less likely to be described by their parents
as having behavior problems and being sad or depressed when they hit
school age. What do you think those parents who didn't spank were doing?
They were using alternatives.


Really? That is not what the author of this study said:

"Other forms of punishment may also have been associated with subsequent
child behavior problems, but it was not possible to explore those
associations using these data."

Which means that other forms of punishment may have been used, but these
were alternatives to spanking. The study examined spanking. And the
results were not favorable for spanking.

LaVonne

On Fri, 7 May 2004 12:17:03 -0700, Doan wrote:


On Tue, 4 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:



Ivan Gowch wrote:

The impact of spanking has been the topic of a number of studies
--
most with mixed results. The latest research is one of the first
to
look at the impact of spanking on youngsters under 2.

I'm referring to the 1986 study by Power and Chapieski,
"Childrearing
and Impulse Control in Toddlers: A Naturalistic Investigation."
Most
disturbing are two conclusions: "...infants of physically
punishing
mothers showed the lowest levels of compliance and were most likely
to
manipulate breakable objects during observations...." and
"...infants
whose mothers relied on physical punishment showed lower Bayley
scores
at 21 months, especially for the nonverbal items." (Power and
Chapieski, 1989, p. 273).

No matter how much research is conducted, results are always the
same.
Spanking is a risk factor in children's lives. Spanking correlates
with
short and long term negative outcomes. There is no logical or
moral
reason to spank a child of any age.

Can you show me one study where correlations are different with
regard to
non-cp alternatives under the same conditions?

"Perhaps the most difficult methodological problem in research on the
effects of CP is posed by the the fact that child behavior problems
lead
parents to spank. Thus the repeated finding that the more CP parents
use,
the worse the behavior problems of the child does not necessarily
show
that CP has harmful effects, or even that CP is not effective in
reducing
misbehavior (as I erroneously argued in the past)."

Straus admitted his error. Can you do the same?

Can you not do the same?

Your error is one of the simplest. The concept that there is risk
inherent in non-punitive parenting.

Do you really believe that spanking is on an equal footing, risk wise,
and effectiveness wise, with the huge repertoire of non-punitive
methods avaible to parents?

It's really the simplest of logic. Non-punitive parents has close to
zero risks....and those would be mostly incidental to LIFE not the
parenting, while spanking is shown to have many risks, including life
threatening ones that can put parents in jail and or losing their
children.

And you still want to say that "parents know what is best for their
own children" as though that were a universal truth, right?

Doan

You are a fraud Doan. You can't be so stupid as to really believe that
spanking is better and safer as a teaching tool than nonpunitive
methods, but you persist, just as you did in your refusal to actually
answer The Question and admit it's unanswerable.

Anything but face your failure, right?

Typical of the spanked child...and control freak.

Thanks for keeping us reminded why parents should give very serious
thought to NOT spanking their children, or using punitive teaching
methods.

Kane

On Fri, 7 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

Hey doan,

Read Power and Chapieski yet, or are you still dealing with smoke
screens? Read the study and let's debate.

LaVonne

I have not read Power and Chapieski. Can I get a copy from you?
What's the sample size? Is it much larger than the Baumrind & Owens
study? As you said, let's debate.

Doan

On Fri, 7 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:



Doan wrote:

On Tue, 4 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:


Why snipped your own words? Too ashame? ;-)

Do you ? The study said:

"no information was available on other punishments used by parents"


Children in this study who were not
spanked early in life were less likely to be described by their parents
as having behavior problems and being sad or depressed when they hit
school age. What do you think those parents who didn't spank were doing?
They were using alternatives.


Really? That is not what the author of this study said:

"Other forms of punishment may also have been associated with subsequent
child behavior problems, but it was not possible to explore those
associations using these data."

Which means that other forms of punishment may have been used, but these
were alternatives to spanking. The study examined spanking. And the
results were not favorable for spanking.

Nope. Do you know how to read, LaVonne? The author is saying other forms
of punishments may have been confounding factors! Parents often started
with non-cp alternatives first as Straus acknowledged:

"CP is typically a response to misbehavior, particularly after one or more
other intervention have been tried repeatedly and the misbehavior they are
meant to correct recurs."

Straus, Murray A. & Vera E. Mouradian. 1998 "Impulsive Corporal Punishment by
Mothers and Antisocial Behavior and Impulsiveness of children." Behavioral
Sciences and the Law. 16: 353-374.

Doan

Doan,

And how exactly am I supposed to provide you with a copy of Power and
Chapieski? I gave you the reference:

Power, T. & Chapieski, M. (1986). Childrearing and impulse control in
toddlers: A naturalistic investigation. Developmental Psychology
22(2), 271-275.

I'm sure there is a way for you to acquire the article if you are truly
interested.

LaVonne

Doan wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:


Hey doan,

Read Power and Chapieski yet, or are you still dealing with smoke
screens? Read the study and let's debate.

LaVonne


I have not read Power and Chapieski. Can I get a copy from you?
What's the sample size? Is it much larger than the Baumrind & Owens
study? As you said, let's debate.

Doan

Doan wrote:

On Fri, 7 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:



Doan wrote:


On Tue, 4 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:


Why snipped your own words? Too ashame? ;-)

Oh for heaven sakes, Doan. I snipped enough so that other readers of
the post could see the attributes. This included a portion of my
previous response that I was not responding to in this post.


Do you ? The study said:

"no information was available on other punishments used by parents"



What do you think those parents who didn't spank were doing?
They were using alternatives.


Really? That is not what the author of this study said:

"Other forms of punishment may also have been associated with subsequent
child behavior problems, but it was not possible to explore those
associations using these data."

Which means that other forms of punishment may have been used, but these
were alternatives to spanking. The study examined spanking. And the
results were not favorable for spanking.


Nope. Do you know how to read, LaVonne? The author is saying other forms
of punishments may have been confounding factors! Parents often started
with non-cp alternatives first as Straus acknowledged:

The author said "other forms of punishment may also have been associated
with subsequent child behavior problems, but it was not possible to
explore those associations using these data."

The author also said, "Children in this study who were not spanked early
in life were less likely to be described by their parents as having
behavior problems and being sad or depressed when they hit school age."

Yes, these children with behavior problems may have been subjected to
other forms of punishment as well as spanking. In order to debate the
subject logically one has to be familiar with the available body of
research. Each study is done under different conditions, with a
different population, different hypotheses, and different methodology.
Yet nearly four decades of research on spanking has yet to show spanking
more effective than alternatives, especially non-punitive alternatives.
And nearly four decades of research continues to link spanking with
increased risk of both short and long term negative outcomes.

LaVonne

"CP is typically a response to misbehavior, particularly after one or more
other intervention have been tried repeatedly and the misbehavior they are
meant to correct recurs."

Straus, Murray A. & Vera E. Mouradian. 1998 "Impulsive Corporal Punishment by
Mothers and Antisocial Behavior and Impulsiveness of children." Behavioral
Sciences and the Law. 16: 353-374.

Doan

Doan wrote:

On Tue, 4 May 2004, Carlson LaVonne wrote:



Ivan Gowch wrote:


The impact of spanking has been the topic of a number of studies --
most with mixed results. The latest research is one of the first to
look at the impact of spanking on youngsters under 2.

I'm referring to the 1986 study by Power and Chapieski, "Childrearing
and Impulse Control in Toddlers: A Naturalistic Investigation." Most
disturbing are two conclusions: "...infants of physically punishing
mothers showed the lowest levels of compliance and were most likely to
manipulate breakable objects during observations...." and "...infants
whose mothers relied on physical punishment showed lower Bayley scores
at 21 months, especially for the nonverbal items." (Power and
Chapieski, 1989, p. 273).

No matter how much research is conducted, results are always the same.
Spanking is a risk factor in children's lives. Spanking correlates with
short and long term negative outcomes. There is no logical or moral
reason to spank a child of any age.


Can you show me one study where correlations are different with regard to
non-cp alternatives under the same conditions?

If you understood research and had read the multitude of studies
spanning nearly four decades, you would ask such a ridiculous question.

"Perhaps the most difficult methodological problem in research on the
effects of CP is posed by the the fact that child behavior problems lead
parents to spank. Thus the repeated finding that the more CP parents use,
the worse the behavior problems of the child does not necessarily show
that CP has harmful effects, or even that CP is not effective in reducing
misbehavior (as I erroneously argued in the past)."

Straus admitted his error. Can you do the same?

You pulled this quote out of context and you neglected to provide a
reference for a direct quote. Please do so.

LaVonne

Doan