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#32
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Have you tried an electric toothbrush?
(CBI) wrote
That is just great. In this whole threat you have provided exactly one reference in one post. I just did a search on PubMed which makes you look like a quack. Every post-2000 clinical study on electric toothbrushes states they are clearly much better than manual toothbrushes at removing plaque. -- CBI, MD Path: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04- news.ops.worldnet.att.net!wnmaster11!wn14feed!worl dnet.att.net!199.218.7.14 1!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: (CBI) Newsgroups: misc.kids.health Subject: Have you tried an electric toothbrush? Date: 7 May 2004 13:30:43 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: . net . net . net NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.80.94.22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1083961843 1909 127.0.0.1 (7 May 2004 20:30:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:30:43 +0000 (UTC) Xref: wnmaster11 misc.kids.health:122111 X-Received-Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 20:30:43 GMT (bgtnsc05- news.ops.worldnet.att.net) |
#33
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Have you tried an electric toothbrush?
John Doe wrote:
(CBI) wrote That is just great. In this whole threat you have provided exactly one reference in one post. I just did a search on PubMed which makes you look like a quack. Every post-2000 clinical study on electric toothbrushes states they are clearly much better than manual toothbrushes at removing plaque. So you say. |
#34
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Have you tried an electric toothbrush?
John Doe wrote:
(CBI) wrote That is just great. In this whole threat you have provided exactly one reference in one post. I just did a search on PubMed which makes you look like a quack. Every post-2000 clinical study on electric toothbrushes states they are clearly much better than manual toothbrushes at removing plaque. If you are going to have these types of discussions you need to learn to keep in mind what claims have and have not been made. I have stated that a specific article in the December 2003 Consumer Reports contradicts your anecdotal experience. I have pointed out that your argument has so far completely depended on anecdote and that you have been strangely reluctant to bring data into the discussion (and still haven't). I have pointed out that your insistance on discounting the referenced article is bizarre given your own admission of not having read it. All of these claims are manifestly true and no Pubmed search could ever cast doubts on any of them. I have not issued a statement claiming; based on personal experience, anecdote, or published reports; whether one is clearly superior to the other (at least not yet). In fact, I pointed out that in the report I cited there is some doubt where children are concerned and that the report demonstrated equivalence for adults, not superiority. As for your claim that "every post-2000 clinical study on electric toothbrushes states they are clearly much better": It is obviously wrong on the face of it since I have already referenced one that didn't. OK - I know what you will say - "I meant pubmed listed articles." Well, apparently you missed a few because I only had to take one try at typing in search terms to find several that contradict you. Of course, we will never know what you did since after taking the time and trouble to do a search you apparently didn't think it was important to tell us what you found (to be charitable about it). Here is what I found: J Clin Periodontol. 2004 Feb;31(2):95-8. "CONCLUSIONS: This study has suggested that the powered brush may become more effective at reducing dental stain, the longer the brush is used under normal home conditions." - OK this one suggest there "may" be an advantage. I wouldn't say that "may" is the same as "clearly". It gets better if you read on. Caries Res. 2004 Mar-Apr;38(2):91-4. "Secondly, both methods resulted in about 50% less plaque on occlusal surfaces compared to baseline (29.2%) with a slightly but significantly smaller mean value for the electric toothbrush (14.7%, manual cross-brushing technique 16.7%; p = 0.025). " - "Slightly but statistically significant". Again, not the "clear" superiority you claim.. Pesqui Odontol Bras. 2001 Oct-Dec;15(4):296-301. "According to the statistical analysis of the results, there were no significant differences concerning plaque removal when the toothbrushes were utilized by children with mixed dentition. " - Well gee - that's hardly "clearly much better". Am J Orthod Dentofacial Orthop. 2001 Oct;120(4):353-60. "The data were analyzed with the Friedman test, which showed no significant differences among the 4 brushes for any of the parameters measured. " - The study included 2 electric and 2 manual brushes. J Clin Dent. 2001;12(1):17-20. "No significant statistical difference in plaque score or bleeding score was found between the two groups at baseline. Plaque scores did not statistically significantly decrease over time in either group, and there was no significant difference in plaque removal between groups during the study. " - This compared one electric with one manual brush. Eur J Med Res. 2001 Jan 29;6(1):39-45. "CONCLUSIONS: With regard to caries and gingivitis prevalence modern electric toothbrushes for children can be considered equally efficient like conventional manual toothbrushes for children with children of normal caries risk." J Clin Periodontol. 2001 Jan;28(1):65-72 "CONCLUSIONS: The results of the present study have shown that in a group of dental students trained in manual brushing technique, where efficacy was similar with the 3 toothbrushes tested, there is no evidence of greater gingival abrasion with either Braun Oral-B Plak Control Ultra or 3D when compared with a manual brush." Acta Odontol Scand. 2000 Aug;58(4):166-70. "In conclusion. no clinically relevant differences in plaque reducing and gingivitis controlling ability were observed." - This compared one manual to two electric toothbrushes. To be fair, I did find a few studies that suggested that electric toothbushes are better, J Clin Periodontol. 2001 Apr;28(4):325-30, as an example. However, a two things became obvious when I did the search. One is that the literature is mixed with some studies on both sides of the debate but with the over-all body of literature strongly suggesting equivalence. The second is that "John Doe" lied when he described claimed to have done a search (to no longer be charitable about it) as there is no way he could have done one and then truthfully made the claim he did. Also, if he did do a search I am sure he would have listed and/or quoted the supporting studies instead of making the easily proved to be false statement that he did. Lastly, a few studies did suggest that even when outcomes were clinically equivalent that some people just liked the electric toothbrushes better. Since the best predictor of efficacy for a toothbrush is how long and how consistantly it is used this may represent a strong argument to spend the extra money if you prefer one over the other. Except for the part where John quotes this whole post just to call me a troll, I think that about wraps up the issue. -- CBI, MD |
#35
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Have you tried an electric toothbrush?
Chuckle.
Anemic. "John Doe" wrote in message ... Troll. "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 7, 2004" M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t wrote Path: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net!wnmaster11!wn12feed!worl dnet.att.net!199. 218.7.141!news.glorb.com!news3.optonline.net!news4 .srv.hcvlny.cv.net.POSTED! not-for-mail From: "M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 7, 2004" M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t Newsgroups: misc.kids.health References: . net . net . net Subject: Have you tried an electric toothbrush? Lines: 75 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 13:38:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.194.64.219 X-Complaints-To: X-Trace: news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net 1083937139 68.194.64.219 (Fri, 07 May 2004 09:38:59 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 09:38:59 EDT Organization: Optimum Online Xref: wnmaster11 misc.kids.health:122096 X-Received-Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 13:39:13 GMT (bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net) "John Do(p)e" wrote in message ... "CBI" wrote John Doe wrote: "CBI" wrote You post your personal opinion as fact. You expect me to subscribe to Consumer Reports in order to substantiate your recollection of their opinion. Can you quote something from the article? Why - then you will just accuse me of not typing it accurately and taking things out of context Or being plain wrong. An empty claim which you will not bother to prove. ...Go tot he library and look it up. If you feel that I have misrepresented something int he article post your specific concerns here and I will address them. A wild goose chasing your recollection of Consumer Reports' summary opinion. That article is titled "Expert consumer advice and recommendations on electric toothbrushes". That isn't about the difference between electric and manual toothbrushes. http://www.consumersearch.com/www/fa...s/reviews.html Apparently, you attributed Clinical Research Associates 1998 results to Consumer Reports December 2003 results about electric toothbrushes. You have been misspelling "Consumer Reports" throughout this thread. Wow! What an excellent example of "I think this way, so you must, too" reasoning. Me thinks you are careless. Nah. You don't. think, that is. You then replied by insulting me, For malpractice. Nope, Dope, not even close. ... I am [a doctor]. Says who? Where? CBI being a MD is a well known factoid in this group. Why not promote good dental health for kids? BTW - if you would bother to read my replies you would see that I (quoting Consumers Report) Quote? In this thread? did allow that electric toothbrushes may have some benefit for some kids. I appreciate that crumb. It is better than ego boosting topical garbage and trolling. You are being self-referential again. In fact, electric toothbrushes are much better than manual toothbrushes. According to everybody who has used one. |
#36
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Have you tried an electric toothbrush?
"CBI" wrote in message link.net...
John Doe wrote: (CBI) wrote That is just great. In this whole threat you have provided exactly one reference in one post. I just did a search on PubMed which makes you look like a quack. Every post-2000 clinical study on electric toothbrushes states they are clearly much better than manual toothbrushes at removing plaque. snip As for your claim that "every post-2000 clinical study on electric toothbrushes states they are clearly much better": snip Here is what I found: 8 examples that show John Doe is full of stuff deleted Nice tactics - first post an incredible boast. Then when someone shows you to be wrong just ignore that post, start a new thread repeating the same crap, and cross post to a group that you hope will be sympathetic to your cause. Look, you like to use an electric toothbrush. Good for you - you are not alone. Use it in good health. Just stop making claims that are obviously untrue. -- CBI, MD |
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