How many hours in daycare?

On Jun 11, 12:14 pm, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
cjra wrote:
I also found doing my PhD to be quite
well paid with convenient and flexible hours (I generally worked
8.15am-3.45pm..much better than an industry job and similar to school
hours).

Really? wow! No way could i have done a PhD in those hours!

I'm not sure Helen meant that she didn't work on her
PhD outside those hours, but perhaps any TA/RA work or other
work that had to be done away from home could be confined to
those hours. I'm sure she put in lots of hours at home too ;-)
FWIW, that was my experience as well at a Business school.

In the sciences, there isn't a lot of 'at home' work unless you're
writing a paper. The bulk of it is in the lab. Experiments can be
timed somewhat, but they often fall outside that 6-8 hr time frame.
It's my understanding that Business School involves a lot of
coursework, correct? A science PhD program, once past the first year
or so, is mostly like regular work in a lab with no courses except the
occasional journal club or lecture series.


While it
was flexible in that I didn't have to punch a clock or be there during
business hours, my days were typically 12+ days long for long periods
of time (and never less than 8 hours!) and a lot of weekends. The pay
was, pathetic (I was making a lot at $16K/year....before that it was
$11K in a high cost of living city). I know NIH has changed some of
it's pay scale standards for students recently, I'd be impressed if it
was 'well paid.'

There is *huge* variation in fields. My package as a
doctoral student was full tuition remission with either a TA or
RA position that paid about $3k/month. Sadly, the social sciences
and liberal arts doctoral students, even at the same university,
weren't getting anything near that :-( I remember that at the
time, my mother was working at one university as an adjunct
(with her PhD in medical sociology completed) and she was making
less than I was as a doctoral student TA with fewer classes than
she had.

Dang, that's pretty good! That's extremely well paid even for a post-
doc in academics (my first post-doc paid less than that, and it was
considered well-paying). The social sciences at the two universities
where I did graduate degrees were paid even less than that. I was in
an NIH funded science program. At one university TAs were paid in
addition to the stipend (the amount quoted above was in addition to a
tuition reimbursement) and that was by semester - a good amount was
$4K per 16 week course (no one ever did more than 1-2 courses, and the
TA-ships were usually reserved for those who didn't have research
assistanceships - I taught, tho I was on an RA, only because they were
desperate). At the other university, you weren't paid extra for
teaching. Granted this was a few years back, but not *that* long
ago.

cjra wrote:
On Jun 11, 12:14 pm, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
cjra wrote:
I also found doing my PhD to be quite
well paid with convenient and flexible hours (I generally worked
8.15am-3.45pm..much better than an industry job and similar to school
hours).
Really? wow! No way could i have done a PhD in those hours!
I'm not sure Helen meant that she didn't work on her
PhD outside those hours, but perhaps any TA/RA work or other
work that had to be done away from home could be confined to
those hours. I'm sure she put in lots of hours at home too ;-)
FWIW, that was my experience as well at a Business school.

In the sciences, there isn't a lot of 'at home' work unless you're
writing a paper. The bulk of it is in the lab. Experiments can be
timed somewhat, but they often fall outside that 6-8 hr time frame.

Certainly how much flexibility you have depends a lot
on the precise nature of one's research ;-)

It's my understanding that Business School involves a lot of
coursework, correct?

It depends on what your background is coming in. Mostly
it's two years of courses, but it can be more if you come in with
little business background.

A science PhD program, once past the first year
or so, is mostly like regular work in a lab with no courses except the
occasional journal club or lecture series.

Once you're past the required coursework in Business,
it's basically your "job" (RA/TA, maybe nothing in the program
if you're not eligible or not interested) plus whatever you need
to do to get your proposal and dissertation done. Those needs
vary a lot depending on the nature of your research, but most
folks aren't doing labwork (though some do).

There is *huge* variation in fields. My package as a
doctoral student was full tuition remission with either a TA or
RA position that paid about $3k/month. Sadly, the social sciences
and liberal arts doctoral students, even at the same university,
weren't getting anything near that :-( I remember that at the
time, my mother was working at one university as an adjunct
(with her PhD in medical sociology completed) and she was making
less than I was as a doctoral student TA with fewer classes than
she had.

Dang, that's pretty good! That's extremely well paid even for a post-
doc in academics (my first post-doc paid less than that, and it was
considered well-paying).

Yeah, B. schools are often fairly well-heeled. Instead
of Masters students receiving financial aid, they've got MBA
students paying through the nose, not to mention many have
Exec. Ed. programs that are also cash cows. They can often
afford to treat their PhD students pretty well.

The social sciences at the two universities
where I did graduate degrees were paid even less than that. I was in
an NIH funded science program. At one university TAs were paid in
addition to the stipend (the amount quoted above was in addition to a
tuition reimbursement) and that was by semester - a good amount was
$4K per 16 week course (no one ever did more than 1-2 courses, and the
TA-ships were usually reserved for those who didn't have research
assistanceships - I taught, tho I was on an RA, only because they were
desperate). At the other university, you weren't paid extra for
teaching. Granted this was a few years back, but not *that* long
ago.

My experience was in the early to mid '90s, so probably
somewhat comparable ;-) It was a really nice gig.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Jun 11, 7:59 pm, cjra wrote:
On Jun 11, 11:45 am, hbar wrote:

Hi,
My kids are much younger than yours (7,5 and 2) but I've just gone
back to work. I'm doing a half-time research job at the university
(officially a post-doc). This means I only work during school hours
(8.30am-3p.m) and have 2 days off to spend having fun and doing
errands with my toddler. This is my second half-time research
position. I have found academia (as opposed to industry) to be
extremely interested in experienced researchers working part-time as
they don't have to pay social benefits and overheads which reduces the
amount they pay out (as opposed to the amount you get) to almost a
quarter of a full time position.

That's interesting. May I ask what field you are in? Idon't know
anyone in mine who'd hire a PT post-doc (but then I'm well past the
post-doc stage)

I'm in solid-state physics. I did a part-time post-doc at UCSB in the
Materials department and am now doing one at the Hebrew University,
Jerusalem in the Physical Chemistry department. It was certainly a new
idea to be doing a part-time post-doc but one which was very well
received especially in USA (as social benefits including health
insurance don't have to be paid and they amount to a lot of money).

I also found doing my PhD to be quite
well paid with convenient and flexible hours (I generally worked
8.15am-3.45pm..much better than an industry job and similar to school
hours).

Really? wow! No way could i have done a PhD in those hours! While it
was flexible in that I didn't have to punch a clock or be there during
business hours, my days were typically 12+ days long for long periods
of time (and never less than 8 hours!) and a lot of weekends. The pay
was, pathetic (I was making a lot at $16K/year....before that it was
$11K in a high cost of living city). I know NIH has changed some of
it's pay scale standards for students recently, I'd be impressed if it
was 'well paid.'

I did my PhD at the Weizmann Institute,Israel which is a post-graduate
research institute and as such my entire time was devoted to research
with no teaching hours. PhD students had minimal course requirements
(3 courses over the entire PhD) as most courses are done during the
Masters. I also did theoretical physics so didn't have to keep to the
hours of any experiments (some of my biology friends had to come in in
the middle of the night to change enzymes e.t.c). I read a few papers
in the evenings, ran a few simulations but not much beyond that.I also
went to a couple of conferences but took my (still nursing) son with
along with a babysitter. Also nearly all the students become parents
during their PhD's in Israel as students tend to be older and marry
earlier than in the USA and so expectations are different and
supervisors understand leaving at 4 to pick up kids from day care.
Also as students already have families, pay in the sciences,
especially areas where hi-tech salaries are huge, are very reasonable.
I was paid 1500 dollars a month non-taxable (no tuition fees), which
for Israel is slightly above average wage and if both partners earn
that amount is a comfortable wage for a family. I know humanities
students are paid much less. Having said all this, if you want to get
a tenure-track position at a research university (as opposed to a
college) after post-doc you really have to work much longer hours, as
it is extremely competitive to get such a position and you have to
have published a lot in the best journals. My husband who has a tenure-
track position generally works 10 hours a day and during his post-doc
also sometimes for one day of the weekend. However it is important for
me to have time with the kids and be there to pick them up from school
and so I decided to somewhat limit my career. I really hope I'll be
able to get a research-associate position, which would allow
convenient hours, but these are very hard to come by..
Helen

On Jun 11, 1:52 pm, hbar wrote:
On Jun 11, 7:59 pm, cjra wrote:



On Jun 11, 11:45 am, hbar wrote:

Hi,
My kids are much younger than yours (7,5 and 2) but I've just gone
back to work. I'm doing a half-time research job at the university
(officially a post-doc). This means I only work during school hours
(8.30am-3p.m) and have 2 days off to spend having fun and doing
errands with my toddler. This is my second half-time research
position. I have found academia (as opposed to industry) to be
extremely interested in experienced researchers working part-time as
they don't have to pay social benefits and overheads which reduces the
amount they pay out (as opposed to the amount you get) to almost a
quarter of a full time position.

That's interesting. May I ask what field you are in? Idon't know
anyone in mine who'd hire a PT post-doc (but then I'm well past the
post-doc stage)

I'm in solid-state physics. I did a part-time post-doc at UCSB in the
Materials department and am now doing one at the Hebrew University,
Jerusalem in the Physical Chemistry department.

hey, I did my undergrad at UCSB, but in biology and political science.
That was lat e80s/early 90s. I miss it! Lovely place to be.

It was certainly a new
idea to be doing a part-time post-doc but one which was very well
received especially in USA (as social benefits including health
insurance don't have to be paid and they amount to a lot of money).

Certainly sounds nice ;-). I guess everyone I know in the field is on
the tenure track or similar. Most PIs are focused on getting
publications out/worried about getting scooped, so anything less than
60 hrs per week is not acceptable.

Having said all this, if you want to get
a tenure-track position at a research university (as opposed to a
college) after post-doc you really have to work much longer hours, as
it is extremely competitive to get such a position and you have to
have published a lot in the best journals. My husband who has a tenure-
track position generally works 10 hours a day and during his post-doc
also sometimes for one day of the weekend.

Very true. After my post-doc I left academic research and work in
public health now, which is my true calling. I love research but have
always wanted to do it in the PH rather than academic environment
(where I was being pulled into very basic scientific research). Alas,
public health is even less well paid than academics In any case,
that's true, if you want to do the tenure track, long hours are norm.
DH works very long hours but as his work is mostly computer based
(physics) he can do a lot from home and does (he works from 5-6:30am
athome every morning, then at night after DD sleeps).

On Jun 11, 9:59 am, cjra wrote:
On Jun 11, 11:45 am, hbar wrote:

I also found doing my PhD to be quite
well paid with convenient and flexible hours (I generally worked
8.15am-3.45pm..much better than an industry job and similar to school
hours).

Really? wow! No way could i have done a PhD in those hours! While it
was flexible in that I didn't have to punch a clock or be there during
business hours, my days were typically 12+ days long for long periods
of time (and never less than 8 hours!) and a lot of weekends. The pay
was, pathetic (I was making a lot at $16K/year....before that it was
$11K in a high cost of living city). I know NIH has changed some of
it's pay scale standards for students recently, I'd be impressed if it
was 'well paid.'

I did my PhD in history at UCSC. The humanities grad students got
paid roughly $1300/month with no summer funding; people taught summer
session or got part-time jobs (I worked maintenance at grad student
housing one summer!). We also got tuition and health insurance, but
the cost of living in Santa Cruz is very high and there are always
complaints about being impoverished. In the sciences/engineering,
however, the grad students got paid more *and* got summer funding --
and moreover, most of them have research assistanceships, which means
they're actually getting paid to do something related to their own
dissertations.

I had these romantic ideas about How Nice It Would Be to have a baby
during grad school -- flexible schedules for DH and me and all that.
Thank the good Lord I didn't get pregnant until my last year and that
I finished up the diss a few months before Micah made his appearance
-- he was such a challenging baby that I'd never have graduated
otherwise! But having said that, I routinely worked 8-hour weekdays
and some 4-hour Saturdays (I never worked on Sunday), with big pushes
during grading season and at the end when I was finishing up
everything. I also did alot of union stuff and grad student
association stuff alongside. Of course, it took me 7 years to
finish.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04; Shiloh, 4/22/07

On Jun 11, 4:01 pm, wrote:

I did my PhD in history at UCSC.

Another gorgeous place! (and expensive!)

The humanities grad students got
paid roughly $1300/month with no summer funding; people taught summer
session or got part-time jobs (I worked maintenance at grad student
housing one summer!). We also got tuition and health insurance, but
the cost of living in Santa Cruz is very high and there are always
complaints about being impoverished. In the sciences/engineering,
however, the grad students got paid more *and* got summer funding --
and moreover, most of them have research assistanceships, which means
they're actually getting paid to do something related to their own
dissertations.

Yes, IME, in the sciences you get paid for a full year. You weren't
supposed to have an outside job, and at least at one, it was expressly
forbidden (may have been at the other, but it never came up). Not
exactly raking in the big bucks though ;-)

I had these romantic ideas about How Nice It Would Be to have a baby
during grad school -- flexible schedules for DH and me and all that.
Thank the good Lord I didn't get pregnant until my last year and that
I finished up the diss a few months before Micah made his appearance
-- he was such a challenging baby that I'd never have graduated
otherwise! But having said that, I routinely worked 8-hour weekdays
and some 4-hour Saturdays (I never worked on Sunday), with big pushes
during grading season and at the end when I was finishing up
everything. I also did alot of union stuff and grad student
association stuff alongside. Of course, it took me 7 years to
finish.

In public health, I knew a few people who had babies in their last
years. However they were in very computer intensive sort of programs
as opposed to lab based. So it was feasible to be nursing a baby and
typing....trying to set up an experiment is not possible with a baby
around. On a number of occasions I'd care for my bosses' 2 kids when
they went away for a few days to a week at a time. On those days I
*had* to work 8-5 (I usually split the drop off/pick up with my then
partner). It was really hard planning experiments around that. I could
do a lot of things, but some things just had to be put on hold til the
next week. Part of it was learning to schedule things better because I
*couldn't* stay an extra hour or two at night, but some experiments
just couldn't fall into that schedule.

Plenty of people have kids and work in a lab, it's just a bit
different when you're a student as there are certain expectations. I
couldn't have imagined taking 12 weeks of maternity leave - 12 weeks
to put all my experiments on hold, just would not have worked with the
type of work I was doing.

On Jun 12, 6:07 am, cjra wrote:
Plenty of people have kids and work in a lab, it's just a bit
different when you're a student as there are certain expectations. I
couldn't have imagined taking 12 weeks of maternity leave - 12 weeks
to put all my experiments on hold, just would not have worked with the
type of work I was doing.

Yep, lab work is much less flexible! I had to go on research trips (a
year in Britain, a month in Philly, a month in Pasadena, etc.) which
would have been difficult/impossible with a baby. But in terms of
adjusting writing around a kid, it would have been doable, it just
would have taken me even longer to finish.

I joke with DH that I may have gotten paid peanuts as a humanities
grad student, and I may not be able to find a well-paying job
afterwards, but I *did* get funding to go to awesome places to do
research. He, on the other hand, got paid almost twice as much as me,
but he spent his entire grad student career in a window-less office.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04; Shiloh, 4/22/07

On Jun 12, 11:34 am, wrote:
On Jun 12, 6:07 am, cjra wrote:

Plenty of people have kids and work in a lab, it's just a bit
different when you're a student as there are certain expectations. I
couldn't have imagined taking 12 weeks of maternity leave - 12 weeks
to put all my experiments on hold, just would not have worked with the
type of work I was doing.

Yep, lab work is much less flexible! I had to go on research trips (a
year in Britain, a month in Philly, a month in Pasadena, etc.) which
would have been difficult/impossible with a baby. But in terms of
adjusting writing around a kid, it would have been doable, it just
would have taken me even longer to finish.

I joke with DH that I may have gotten paid peanuts as a humanities
grad student, and I may not be able to find a well-paying job
afterwards, but I *did* get funding to go to awesome places to do
research. He, on the other hand, got paid almost twice as much as me,
but he spent his entire grad student career in a window-less office.

Ah yes, I can't complain *too* much as I did get paid to live in
Africa, Costa Rica, UK and as a post-doc, Thailand, for extended
periods. It helps to work in tropical diseases With a portable
baby it wouldn't have been impossible (many of my colleagues had kids
and in many places it's easier there than here as there are more
support options), the problem is the less portable husband.