The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)

"Gini" wrote in message
news:QEbTf.1700$8G2.430@trndny01...

"Dusty" wrote


Not, that's not it. I want you to tell us how a man is in control of
his
fertility, not a list of birth control options. How does one do that
Moonie? How do you control something that you have no control over??

Birth control is one thing, controlling one's own fertility is quite
another.
==
And it's a whole lot different than controlling one's sperm. I'm sure
she'll
will have very good answer. It will be amusingly convoluted but she'll
come
up with
some way to dance around it.
==

When a man uses birth control he becomes infertile. When a man doesn't use
birth control he becomes fertile. It's like a light switch - its on or its
off.

But if a man uses birth control to become infertile and the woman uses the
used condom to make herself pregnant the man was fertile even though he used
a condom to be infertile. And if a man abstains from sex he is neither
fertile nor infertile because there is no way to tell.

"R" wrote
From: Gini -
...........................................

Where do you
think that leaves you? Logistically, speaking.

Isn't the you're looking for, "Logically"?
==
Nope. Did you read the subsequent sentences for context?
==

"Bill in Co." wrote in message
nk.net...
tonita wrote:
Well, I guess the feminists have suceeded in beating men down. I
always say anything worth having is worth fighting for. Maybe it's
time for men and women to start behaving themselves so none of this
will happen? It's still a blame game. Blame the man, blame the woman,
blame the government. I suppose if I had a child out of wedlock I
could turn to the government for help but I didn't and I won't. My
kids didn't. My friends didn't. It all boils down to behavior and the
attitude of wanting something more for one's life and the lives of
their children. The idea of living a more dignified life. People can
change but they don't have to. It's a societal problem, government
included but I don't think it's totally to blame. There are no values
to stand behind anymore.

Exactly.

Nobody has to have values or, dare I say, morals.

Yes - exactly, again.

It's a free-for-all world and everybody just stands by and
watches and supports. I can't change it but I certainly haven't
contributed to it either.

Tonita, you're wasting your time trying to get it to register "over
there".
There's nothing "there". Just a vacuum.


What Tonita says is pretty much true but I still have two questions:
What happened to change it and;
How can we make it better?
I think understanding the first will give us clues to the second.
Phil #3


Phil #3 wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
I respectfully disagree with, well...everything. You make it sound as
if when a man doesn't get sex he'll either walk around with an eternal
erection or he'll end up raping someone.

You apparently misunderstood.

We all know that isn't true.
People can use their intellect far more than they do.

They *can* but as long as we let the government tell us how to think,
why
bother?

Self control and
self discipline. As for the government, that's kind of far fetched.

Not at all. Apparently you are unaware that the state governments, the
ones
that force the child support guidelines upon the People, rake a tidy
profit
from the federal government in the form of block grants as a reward for
collecting child support. Then add to it the interest on millions of
dollars
sitting in the government accounts for varying lengths of 1-3 months
before
disbursment.

The government, at least in my opinion, horns in when there is a lot of
public pressure. Look at our society today...political correctness and
all of that crap. It is so acceptable for a teenaged girl to get
knocked up, continue school, keep the kid go to junior prom and do it
again the next year. Or worse, quit school and have babies as a
career. The government pays because there isn't a choice anymore.

Sure there's a choice, several in fact, but the basic step is for the
governement to butt out. The government rewards women who operate the
system
by giving them the lion's share of the marriage plus custody of the
children
and far more money than is needed to support those children and people
are
surprised when the numbers of these women increase. Whether the mother
has
been married or not, the subject is the same: rewarding bad behavior and
wondering why the bad behavior increases.

It's done so kids won't starve or die.

Hardly. It's done for political correctness; that is, feminists demand
women
be treated special and men be punished for being male.
Child support has nothing to do with supporting children. Most fathers
would
do whatever is necessary for their children but the government will not
permit it.

It's almost a badge of honor to
be a single mother these days. It's shameful. I think it happens
because there are so many fatherless homes.

To a large degree, absolutely. So it is with may pathological
amomalities
such as failing or dropping out of school, drug use, runaway juveniles,
child abuse and neglect, crime and many others.

I don't agree with any of
it but that's the way it is. People get divorced because they can, men
abandon because they can, women think they can have it all but they
can't. That's why marriages end and thank the feminists for the victim
status many women take. It's downright pathetic.

Too true. Except most fathers want to remain in their children's lives
as
a
parent but are not allowed. The government promise is custody and a C$
order, which is promoted as "liberating" for women. In fact, it makes
them
dependent on the government instead of their husbands and due to the
monolothic number of laws in this regard, the husbands then come under
the
control of the government as well.
Phil #3


Phil #3 wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dogs and cats breed without thought. Humans are supposed to have
evolved above that level. No one *has* to give in to that drive.

I am not so sure. Of course, it is different between men and women.
Men
have
a stronger sex drive than women, which is, IMO, the main reason some
women
think of men as perverts for having a normal (for men) sex drive.
From what I've read, women can do without sex easier than men and the
longer
they do without it, the easier it is to do without it; sort of a
self-fullfilling prophecy, if you will. Men, on the other hand, are
sexual
creatures and the longer they do without it, the stronger the urge
becomes.
It's nature's way of insuring continuation of the species.
Still, you are correct in that no one has to give in but it *is* a
natural
drive. What is unnatural is *not* giving in to it.

The problem is not sex, the problem is that the government is ready,
willing, and with our tax and child support dollars, able to become
surrogate husband and father. More is done to insure a steady supply
of
divorces with children than is devoted to the idea of a strong family
consisting of mother, father, children. The strong family has no need
for
the government to step in and control the family (and a very large
part
of
it's finance) and a split family, that is where at least one parent
does
not
live with their children, the government is making a profit from
enabling
and assisting in broken familes and as a side benefit to an
ever-increasing
government, gaining further total control over the People.

In short, it's not so simple as just saying "no".
Phil #3




It's too bad everyone couldn't stay focused on the topic without all
the bitterness taking over. Nothing will ever be solved in such a
scattered way. Everyone wants to have their "Sex In The City"
moments
but refuse to consider the consequences after the fact. Hence the
state of our world today. Too many fatherless kids, not enough
personal accountability. Everyone wants theirs and to hell with
everyone else. Someone else is always to blame. No more grit and
backbone. Everyone is weak and must cater to their "feelings" above
all else. Kind of makes for a very weak society in general and it
certainly shows. I feel sad really. Kids are hurthing and the
adults
care very little about their psyches. As long as all the men and
women
are happily screwing, who cares? The kids will get over it, the kids
will be fine, the kids don't care what the parents do. Go ahead and
believe all that if that's what it takes to get through the day.
There
*are* good men and women in the world and I mean *real* men and
women,
not these morons who are behaving like juveniles. They're out there
raising good kids, focusing on their families and working together to
keep it together. They're not worried if they're going to feel good
every second, or being happy every second. It's hard work and
they're
up for it. They're not into the blame game or the emotional tennis
match, batting the blaming ball back and forth. Real men aren't
guided
by their penises and won't risk it all for some woman they hardly
know.
They actually care about who becomes the mother of their children.
Real women are discerning and don't let just anyone into their bodies
just for the momentary feelings. Real men and women don't have any
interest in abortion issues or who's responsible for the pregnancy.
They don't have to because they don't indulge in the self serving
behavior that's created this mess in the first place. They don't
have
the "me, me, me" mindset. They sacrifice for the sake of their
families. Yes, it's a very sad state and I suppose it will only get
worse given the types of responses to this post. Everyone will just
continue to blame someone else.



Phil #3 wrote:
Doesn't seem to have made much difference over the past 30 years
although
the marriage rate has dropped and will continue to do so, sex is one
of
humankind's basic drives. It's a difficult instinct to overcome.

"tonita" wrote in message
oups.com...
No, the problem is behavior and attitude. Just having the attitude
that it's not so easy to say no. Everything is easier said than done,
but who even tries anymore. There's nothing guiding anyone to say no.
People screw around because they want to and they can. Who needs
marriage anymore?

Here's my reply to Bill in Co within this same thread:

What you say is pretty much true but I still have two questions:
What happened to change it and;
How can we make it better?
I think understanding the first will give us clues to the second.
Phil #3
[snip]

Yeah. As a matter of fact I did and I still cant figure out where
logistics figures into what you're saying. The management of the
details of an operation is what logistics mean. How does that relate to
what you said?

"Dusty" wrote in message ...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message ...

"Dusty" wrote in message ...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message ...

"Chris" wrote in message news:_NZSf.1086$5F1.18@fed1read08...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Dusty" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

[snip]

For all of Gini's babble about how the woman is only fertile at one
point in her cycle, what she overlooks is
that sperm may live in the female reproductive tract for up to 7 days
and fertilization may occur even days after
intercourse.

Which is something you contradict yourself on in several previous posts
(no, I ain't gonna spoon feed ya either - go
look it up). You yourself have stated that MEN must be the primary
party responsible for all births

Um, no, I haven't. Haven't said anything even remotely along those lines.
I have said that men need to be taking
responsibility for their own birth control though.

Last I checked, men don't control birth.

When they control their own fertility, they sure do. No conception, no birth. That's how it works.

Please explain how men control their own fertility? This I gotta hear...

By using whatever birth control methods are available - rhythm method, condoms, abstinence, only having sex with
someone they KNOW is not fertile (as in sterile) and sterility are currently the available choices. If and when a
male pill becomes available, that will be another option.

Not, that's not it. I want you to tell us how a man is in control of his fertility, not a list of birth control
options. How does one do that Moonie? How do you control something that you have no control over??

Birth control is one thing, controlling one's own fertility is quite another.

Ah.... "I didn't ask about the brakes, I want to know how you stop your car."

You control your fertility by managing and being responsible for it.

By using whatever birth control methods are available.

If you can't understand that, then you probably shouldn't be having sex.

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message ink.net...

"Gini" wrote in message
news:QEbTf.1700$8G2.430@trndny01...

"Dusty" wrote


Not, that's not it. I want you to tell us how a man is in control of
his
fertility, not a list of birth control options. How does one do that
Moonie? How do you control something that you have no control over??

Birth control is one thing, controlling one's own fertility is quite
another.
==
And it's a whole lot different than controlling one's sperm. I'm sure
she'll
will have very good answer. It will be amusingly convoluted but she'll
come
up with
some way to dance around it.
==

When a man uses birth control he becomes infertile.

Condoms render a man infertile?

Since when? Last time I checked, the condom fell into the 'barrier method' of birth control, by keeping the sperm from
proximity to the egg.

"tonita" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, I wouldn't consider that an ideal start for a newborn to be
schlepped back and forth.

What you "comsider" , besides being meaningless, is less than informed.

All babies need their mommies.

How very sexist of you.

Daddies
perform different roles even though most people today disagree.
Everyone wants to change human nature.

What? Like trying to stop women from abusing their kids?

But yes, both parents should
have equal rights but you can't cut a child in half.

Men can't gestate, but they CAN feed baby a bottle. 50/50 joint custody
from day 1, with mom expressing milk if she insists on feeding baby only
mother's milk. Otherwise, formula will work just fine. It takes 2 to
create a child--2, then, should have equal rights and responsibilities.

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

Toni's starting to sound an awful lot like Moonie.... Never answers a
straight question with a straight answer. It's always the "I know you are,
but what am I?" type of response.

Feminism happened and went to an extreme and society went along with
it. Traditional roles in the family don't exist anymore and in case
you haven't noticed, women react with hostility at the thought. I
don't know what kind of woman would become hostile at the thought of
having decent husband and provider and her role as mother and wife.
Of course if a woman doesn't want that role, marry someone who doesn't
want children or someone to raise them. If more couples would take
time to "date", get to know each other, discuss what they want out of
family life and make it happen. It's not impossible but life moves too
quickly now. Of course having some kind of spiritual base would help.
Say what you will about the commandments but I don't see how following
them can hurt anyone. They only serve to protect us. Unless of course
you're so self serving that you couldn't possibly follow them. There
is a simpler way of life and everyone is making everything so
complicated. A lot of people follow this way of life. Men have gotten
a rotten deal out of the last 30 or so years, but I say it's time to
really fight back for what's right. There is too much hostility
between the sexes and it's worse than ever. Women cannot have it all
ways and it's time for everyone to stop letting it happen. Let God
back into our lives and go back to traditional family roles and focus
on the family, not the material things or the sexual satisfaction that
many people feel they must have at every moment. I've been divorced
and I'm not a bitter woman. I truly believe that women have become so
self centered and have treated men like dirt. If men behave badly,
what do you expect? It's what they've been trained to do. The clear
message is that women don't need men even to get pregnant so what are
men to think? I have nothing but contempt for women like this. All on
their high horses. *That's* what has caused the mess we have today.


What Tonita says is pretty much true but I still have two questions:
What happened to change it and;
How can we make it better?
I think understanding the first will give us clues to the second.
Phil #3


Phil #3 wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
I respectfully disagree with, well...everything. You make it sound as
if when a man doesn't get sex he'll either walk around with an eternal
erection or he'll end up raping someone.

You apparently misunderstood.

We all know that isn't true.
People can use their intellect far more than they do.

They *can* but as long as we let the government tell us how to think,
why
bother?

Self control and
self discipline. As for the government, that's kind of far fetched.

Not at all. Apparently you are unaware that the state governments, the
ones
that force the child support guidelines upon the People, rake a tidy
profit
from the federal government in the form of block grants as a reward for
collecting child support. Then add to it the interest on millions of
dollars
sitting in the government accounts for varying lengths of 1-3 months
before
disbursment.

The government, at least in my opinion, horns in when there is a lot of
public pressure. Look at our society today...political correctness and
all of that crap. It is so acceptable for a teenaged girl to get
knocked up, continue school, keep the kid go to junior prom and do it
again the next year. Or worse, quit school and have babies as a
career. The government pays because there isn't a choice anymore.

Sure there's a choice, several in fact, but the basic step is for the
governement to butt out. The government rewards women who operate the
system
by giving them the lion's share of the marriage plus custody of the
children
and far more money than is needed to support those children and people
are
surprised when the numbers of these women increase. Whether the mother
has
been married or not, the subject is the same: rewarding bad behavior and
wondering why the bad behavior increases.

It's done so kids won't starve or die.

Hardly. It's done for political correctness; that is, feminists demand
women
be treated special and men be punished for being male.
Child support has nothing to do with supporting children. Most fathers
would
do whatever is necessary for their children but the government will not
permit it.

It's almost a badge of honor to
be a single mother these days. It's shameful. I think it happens
because there are so many fatherless homes.

To a large degree, absolutely. So it is with may pathological
amomalities
such as failing or dropping out of school, drug use, runaway juveniles,
child abuse and neglect, crime and many others.

I don't agree with any of
it but that's the way it is. People get divorced because they can, men
abandon because they can, women think they can have it all but they
can't. That's why marriages end and thank the feminists for the victim
status many women take. It's downright pathetic.

Too true. Except most fathers want to remain in their children's lives
as
a
parent but are not allowed. The government promise is custody and a C$
order, which is promoted as "liberating" for women. In fact, it makes
them
dependent on the government instead of their husbands and due to the
monolothic number of laws in this regard, the husbands then come under
the
control of the government as well.
Phil #3


Phil #3 wrote:
"tonita" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dogs and cats breed without thought. Humans are supposed to have
evolved above that level. No one *has* to give in to that drive.

I am not so sure. Of course, it is different between men and women.
Men
have
a stronger sex drive than women, which is, IMO, the main reason some
women
think of men as perverts for having a normal (for men) sex drive.
From what I've read, women can do without sex easier than men and the
longer
they do without it, the easier it is to do without it; sort of a
self-fullfilling prophecy, if you will. Men, on the other hand, are
sexual
creatures and the longer they do without it, the stronger the urge
becomes.
It's nature's way of insuring continuation of the species.
Still, you are correct in that no one has to give in but it *is* a
natural
drive. What is unnatural is *not* giving in to it.

The problem is not sex, the problem is that the government is ready,
willing, and with our tax and child support dollars, able to become
surrogate husband and father. More is done to insure a steady supply
of
divorces with children than is devoted to the idea of a strong family
consisting of mother, father, children. The strong family has no need
for
the government to step in and control the family (and a very large
part
of
it's finance) and a split family, that is where at least one parent
does
not
live with their children, the government is making a profit from
enabling
and assisting in broken familes and as a side benefit to an
ever-increasing
government, gaining further total control over the People.

In short, it's not so simple as just saying "no".
Phil #3




It's too bad everyone couldn't stay focused on the topic without all
the bitterness taking over. Nothing will ever be solved in such a
scattered way. Everyone wants to have their "Sex In The City"
moments
but refuse to consider the consequences after the fact. Hence the
state of our world today. Too many fatherless kids, not enough
personal accountability. Everyone wants theirs and to hell with
everyone else. Someone else is always to blame. No more grit and
backbone. Everyone is weak and must cater to their "feelings" above
all else. Kind of makes for a very weak society in general and it
certainly shows. I feel sad really. Kids are hurthing and the
adults
care very little about their psyches. As long as all the men and
women
are happily screwing, who cares? The kids will get over it, the kids
will be fine, the kids don't care what the parents do. Go ahead and
believe all that if that's what it takes to get through the day.
There
*are* good men and women in the world and I mean *real* men and
women,
not these morons who are behaving like juveniles. They're out there
raising good kids, focusing on their families and working together to
keep it together. They're not worried if they're going to feel good
every second, or being happy every second. It's hard work and
they're
up for it. They're not into the blame game or the emotional tennis
match, batting the blaming ball back and forth. Real men aren't
guided
by their penises and won't risk it all for some woman they hardly
know.
They actually care about who becomes the mother of their children.
Real women are discerning and don't let just anyone into their bodies
just for the momentary feelings. Real men and women don't have any
interest in abortion issues or who's responsible for the pregnancy.
They don't have to because they don't indulge in the self serving
behavior that's created this mess in the first place. They don't
have
the "me, me, me" mindset. They sacrifice for the sake of their
families. Yes, it's a very sad state and I suppose it will only get
worse given the types of responses to this post. Everyone will just
continue to blame someone else.



Phil #3 wrote:
Doesn't seem to have made much difference over the past 30 years
although
the marriage rate has dropped and will continue to do so, sex is one
of
humankind's basic drives. It's a difficult instinct to overcome.