A Parenting & kids forum. ParentingBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ParentingBanter.com forum » alt.support » Child Support
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #351  
Old March 20th 06, 08:11 AM posted to alt.child-support,alt.mens-rights,alt.support.divorce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
ink.net...

"tonita" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, I wouldn't consider that an ideal start for a newborn to be
schlepped back and forth. All babies need their mommies. Daddies
perform different roles even though most people today disagree.
Everyone wants to change human nature. But yes, both parents should
have equal rights but you can't cut a child in half.


I will never understand the female logic that it's okay for a newborn
child
to be "schlepped back and forth" from daycare 10 times per week, but it

is
not okay for a newborn child to be "schlepped back and forth" from their
father a couple of times a week.

Why aren't the trips to and from daycare worse than far fewer trips to

be
with the father?

Why is it a mother would entrust a child to a daycare worker before they
would entrust a child to the baby's father?


And why would it even be considered "entrusting"? The father is just as
much a parent as the mother is!!


Biological ONLY. Since the child came out of the mother's body, the
government people reason, it therefore belongs to HER. Since it is hers
alone, anyone else she hands her child to is someone being entrusted. Simple
property basics.





  #352  
Old March 20th 06, 11:22 AM posted to alt.child-support,alt.mens-rights,alt.support.divorce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)


"Chris" wrote in message news:bxoTf.1135$5F1.860@fed1read08...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
ink.net...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"tonita" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, I wouldn't consider that an ideal start for a newborn to be
schlepped back and forth. All babies need their mommies.

Babies need to be taken care of. Not necessarily by "mommy." By

someone.
How ridiculous to think that only the female that carried the child to

birth
can take care of a newborn!


The CS system agrees. That's why they make fathers pay for daycare so the
mommies don't have to take care of the babies. Daycare providers spend

more
time during a day with babies than most working mothers do during their
child's awake hours.


Not to mention that they (CS system) prefer that a child be cared for by
daycare as opposed to the father. When the father is readily available to
care for the child, the government folks prevent a him from caring for his
own child while forcing him to pay a stranger to do so.


In just what way do "the government folks prevent a him from caring for his own child while forcing him to pay a
stranger to do so." Are there some laws, statutes or sanctions that prevent him from caring for his own child?


Pretty sick, huh?



Daddies
perform different roles even though most people today disagree.
Everyone wants to change human nature. But yes, both parents should
have equal rights but you can't cut a child in half.

Really? What "different roles" do daddies perform? When daddy gets up

at
night and gives baby her 2 o'clock feeding, how is that different from

mommy
doing so? When daddy changes baby's diaper, how is that different from
mommy doing so? How is daddy taking an equal role in the care of his
newborn "changing human nature"?


How hard is it to find, interview, and hire a daycare worker? Even dads

can
do that. If dads got custody more often they could use their higher
earnings power to hire a nanny and allow the children to always remain in
their home environment.


But you see, that wouldn't be good because the child would be subject to
it's father which places it in harm's way.

It's the mommies who always want to ship the
kiddies off to daycare centers.


Indeed!







  #353  
Old March 20th 06, 04:22 PM posted to alt.child-support,alt.mens-rights,alt.support.divorce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 04:13:24 GMT, "Gini" wrote:


"Bob Whiteside" wrote

"Gini" wrote

"Ken Chaddock" wrote
In most jurisdictions in the US, an unmarried mother can put her child

up
for adoption without the consent of the father and, if the father wants

to
retain custody of the child, he must assume all legal and financial
responsibility by "adopting" his own child, thereby absolving the
mother
of all legal and financial responsibility,
===
Where on earth did you get this?? In what jurisdictions must the father
adopt his own child? In what jurisdictions
can the child be put up for adoption without the father's consent (save
abandonment, which has strict criteria)?
===


I too would challenge the statement fathers are forced to adopt their own
children. But in many jurisdictions, including where I live, adoption law
practice plays it fast and loose with father's rights before adoption.

One of the many games is to place "public notice ads" in a newspaper where
the father never lived giving him notice unless he comes forward his child
will be adopted out. The legal logic is there is a presumption he might
have lived there. When the father fails to respond the adoption moves
forward without his knowledge.

==
Not so in PA, FL and WVA (where we adopted). It can take *years* to revoke a
parent's
parental rights and he can come back years later and contest the adoption
and win if he didn't
know about it. My sister had her foster children ( 2 siblings) from toddlers
and *finally* was granted adoption
when they were teens. They waited all those years for the father to show up.
They even waited
years after the mother died of a drug overdose and her mother died before
they granted the adoption.
==


Not in Florida, aye the rub with absolute statements.
Your anecdote trumped with this anecdote.
Note line wrap...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/19/na...rtner=homepage

A jury is 12 individuals who decides who has the best lawyer.
- Mark Twain
  #354  
Old March 20th 06, 05:01 PM posted to alt.child-support,alt.mens-rights,alt.support.divorce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)


"GL Fowler" wrote
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 04:13:24 GMT, "Gini"

................................................
==
Not so in PA, FL and WVA (where we adopted). It can take *years* to revoke
a
parent's
parental rights and he can come back years later and contest the adoption
and win if he didn't
know about it. My sister had her foster children ( 2 siblings) from
toddlers
and *finally* was granted adoption
when they were teens. They waited all those years for the father to show
up.
They even waited
years after the mother died of a drug overdose and her mother died before
they granted the adoption.
==


Not in Florida, aye the rub with absolute statements.
Your anecdote trumped with this anecdote.

==
What are you talking about? Your link led to Big Brothers/Sister.
==


  #355  
Old March 20th 06, 05:06 PM posted to alt.child-support,alt.mens-rights,alt.support.divorce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)


tonita wrote:

If men behave badly,
what do you expect? It's what they've been trained to do.


like dogs? ;-) Do you seriously want to blame all "feminists" on all
men who "behave badly"?

LL

  #356  
Old March 20th 06, 06:36 PM posted to alt.child-support,alt.mens-rights,alt.support.divorce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)


"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Chris" wrote in message

news:bxoTf.1135$5F1.860@fed1read08...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
ink.net...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"tonita" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, I wouldn't consider that an ideal start for a newborn to be
schlepped back and forth. All babies need their mommies.

Babies need to be taken care of. Not necessarily by "mommy." By

someone.
How ridiculous to think that only the female that carried the child

to
birth
can take care of a newborn!

The CS system agrees. That's why they make fathers pay for daycare so

the
mommies don't have to take care of the babies. Daycare providers spend

more
time during a day with babies than most working mothers do during their
child's awake hours.


Not to mention that they (CS system) prefer that a child be cared for by
daycare as opposed to the father. When the father is readily available

to
care for the child, the government folks prevent a him from caring for

his
own child while forcing him to pay a stranger to do so.


In just what way do "the government folks prevent a him from caring for

his own child while forcing him to pay a
stranger to do so." Are there some laws, statutes or sanctions that

prevent him from caring for his own child?

Well let's see:

The government people ("family court") grant custody to the mother. They
order the father to pay her invoice for daycare. She places the child in
daycare. He decides to remove the child from daycare and care for the child
himself. He also decides to NOT pay the invoice. It's ALL good, right?

But then again, you could argue that he is not "forced" to, or "prevented"
from doing these things, at least the first time around.



Pretty sick, huh?



Daddies
perform different roles even though most people today disagree.
Everyone wants to change human nature. But yes, both parents should
have equal rights but you can't cut a child in half.

Really? What "different roles" do daddies perform? When daddy gets

up
at
night and gives baby her 2 o'clock feeding, how is that different

from
mommy
doing so? When daddy changes baby's diaper, how is that different

from
mommy doing so? How is daddy taking an equal role in the care of his
newborn "changing human nature"?

How hard is it to find, interview, and hire a daycare worker? Even

dads
can
do that. If dads got custody more often they could use their higher
earnings power to hire a nanny and allow the children to always remain

in
their home environment.


But you see, that wouldn't be good because the child would be subject to
it's father which places it in harm's way.

It's the mommies who always want to ship the
kiddies off to daycare centers.


Indeed!









  #357  
Old March 20th 06, 08:07 PM posted to alt.child-support,alt.mens-rights,alt.support.divorce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)


"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Chris" wrote in message

news:bxoTf.1135$5F1.860@fed1read08...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
ink.net...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"tonita" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, I wouldn't consider that an ideal start for a newborn to be
schlepped back and forth. All babies need their mommies.

Babies need to be taken care of. Not necessarily by "mommy." By

someone.
How ridiculous to think that only the female that carried the child

to
birth
can take care of a newborn!

The CS system agrees. That's why they make fathers pay for daycare so

the
mommies don't have to take care of the babies. Daycare providers spend

more
time during a day with babies than most working mothers do during their
child's awake hours.


Not to mention that they (CS system) prefer that a child be cared for by
daycare as opposed to the father. When the father is readily available

to
care for the child, the government folks prevent a him from caring for

his
own child while forcing him to pay a stranger to do so.


In just what way do "the government folks prevent a him from caring for

his own child while forcing him to pay a
stranger to do so." Are there some laws, statutes or sanctions that

prevent him from caring for his own child?

Yes. The custody laws drive the father out of caring for his own child.
There are two ways this occurs. First, in income shares states an amount
equal to the annualized monthly child care costs due to employment or job
search is added to the basic CS obligation and pro-rated. (Some states
adjust the gross with a formula estimating federal and state child care tax
credits.) Second, when a child is in foster care CS continues to pay the
foster care parent.


  #358  
Old March 20th 06, 10:24 PM posted to alt.child-support,alt.mens-rights,alt.support.divorce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)


"Gini" wrote in message
news:GVxTf.1188$Qm2.798@trndny03...

"Chris" wrote
.........................

Just curious: who exactly "revokes" such rights, and what makes them
revoked.... a piece of paper with some yahoo's signature and the barrel
of
a gun?

==
The only experience I have (we have lots of adopted kids in my family and
extended family)
is with abandonment/parent unidentified. Then the case worker/atty.
asks the judge to revoke the rights.


There's the yahoo.

The judge will examine the case to
determine whether the
missing parent should have his rights revoked.


Imagine that. Some stranger deciding whether or not a child has rights to
their father.

Sometimes they put a notice
in the paper, send certifieds
to the last known address. It is extremely rare to forcibly revoke the
rights. If the parent is present and
disputes it, he will probably prevail. That said, there was a Ohio woman

who
posted here in the mid/late 1990s, whose husband was fighting a
years long case where his rights were being forcibly revoked by his ex

wife
due to nonsupport. He was career military and had a spotty child
support payment history. He had a lot of health problems and relocated all
over the planet but he sincerely tried to keep up with the support. The

case
became a convoluted mess and cost the father tons of money in atty. fees

and
he eventually lost the battle. The wife did a lot of public relations work
about
the inequities of the case. It was a very sad situation. So, it does

happen,
but it is uncommon. My first husband's ex tried to revoke his rights but
failed when he disputed it. This was in PA. Her intention was to allow her
then current husband to adopt the kids. When we adopted my oldest son, his
bio father
was summoned from NY to sign the adoption papers and the judge went

through
a long discourse with him making sure he understood the process and
implications
of revoking the rights--that he would have no more rights to the child

than
a stranger on the street. It was extremely hard for that father to make

the
decision and it took several days of talks with his family members before

he
agreed.


Talks or coercion?

==
==




  #359  
Old March 20th 06, 11:22 PM posted to alt.child-support,alt.mens-rights,alt.support.divorce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:01:37 GMT, "Gini" wrote:


"GL Fowler" wrote
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 04:13:24 GMT, "Gini"

...............................................
==
Not so in PA, FL and WVA (where we adopted). It can take *years* to revoke
a
parent's
parental rights and he can come back years later and contest the adoption
and win if he didn't
know about it. My sister had her foster children ( 2 siblings) from
toddlers
and *finally* was granted adoption
when they were teens. They waited all those years for the father to show
up.
They even waited
years after the mother died of a drug overdose and her mother died before
they granted the adoption.
==


Not in Florida, aye the rub with absolute statements.
Your anecdote trumped with this anecdote.

==
What are you talking about? Your link led to Big Brothers/Sister.
==

Well, as a matter of fact it did not. Just clicked and away it went
to the NY Times article. But for the Internet challenged:

When you figure out your computer and how to use it you also may click
on the following link;

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/l...n/14142037.htm


Unwed Fathers Fight for Babies Placed for Adoption by Mothers
By TAMAR LEWIN

Jeremiah Clayton Jones discovered that his former fiancée was pregnant
just three weeks before the baby was due, when an adoption-agency
lawyer called and asked if he would consent to have his baby adopted.

"I said absolutely not," said Mr. Jones, a 23-year-old Arizona man who
met his ex-fiancée at Pensacola Christian College in Florida. "It was
an awkward moment, hearing for the first time that I would be a
father, and then right away being told, 'We want to take your kid
away.' But I knew that if I was having a baby, I wanted that baby."

Mr. Jones has never seen his son, now 18 months old. Instead, he lost
his parental rights because of his failure to file with a state
registry for unwed fathers — something he learned of only after it was
too late.

Under Florida law, and that of other states, an unmarried father has
no right to withhold consent for adoption unless he has registered
with the state putative father registry before an adoption petition is
filed. Mr. Jones missed the deadline.

Although one in every three American babies has unwed parents, birth
fathers' rights remain an unsettled area, a delicate balancing act
between the importance of biological ties and the undisrupted
placement of babies whose mothers relinquish them for adoption.

While women have the right to get an abortion, or to have and raise a
child, without informing the father, courts have increasingly found
that when birth mothers choose adoption, fathers who have shown a
desire for involvement have rights, too.

But to claim those rights most states require a father to put his name
on a registry. While about 30 states now have registries, they vary
widely. In some, fathers must actually claim paternity; in others,
just the possibility of paternity. The deadlines may be 5 days after
birth or 30, or any time before an adoption petition is filed.

And registries are a double-edged sword: It remains an open question
whether they serve more to protect fathers' rights or to protect
adoptive parents, and the babies they have bonded with, from
biological fathers' claims.

"My specialty is contested adoptions, and the most common contest is
where the mom wants to place the baby and the dad objects," said
Martin Bauer, president of the American Academy of Adoption Attorneys.
"Registries can protect men against birth mothers who won't disclose
the father's name or actively lie about his identity."

Adam Pertman, executive director of the Evan B. Donaldson Adoption
Institute, a nonprofit research and education group, sees it
differently. "It's all smoke and mirrors," Mr. Pertman said. "How can
registries work if no one's heard of them? And it's just not
reasonable to expect that men will register every time they have sex."

In the early 1990's, the two-year fight over Baby Jessica and the
four-year battle over Baby Richard highlighted the wrenching dramas of
birth parents winning custody of babies placed with adoptive parents
years earlier. The spectacle of those children being taken from the
arms of the only parents they had known raised an outcry about the
need for speedy, permanent placement.

While some states have long had putative father registries — New
York's registry was upheld by the United States Supreme Court in 1983
— most were started in the last decade to head off late parental
claims.

In many states, fewer than 100 men register each year — not
surprising, adoption experts say, because most young men have never
heard of the registries. One exception is Indiana, where men are
notified of the registry when a birth mother names them as the father,
and 50 men register a week.

Adoption lawyers say some birth mothers refuse to identify the father
to forestall interference. There are no statistics on how many
unmarried fathers seek to raise babies the birth mother has
relinquished.

Mary Beck, a professor at the University of Missouri School of Law,
said the burden of registering should be the father's.

"There are men who complain, 'What, I have to file for every woman
I've had sex with?' " Professor Beck said. "But men are on notice of
possible pregnancy by virtue of having had sex, and the alternative is
leaving it up to the women to chase them down."

Even for registered men, the system is flawed. Because the registries
are state by state, a registration means nothing if the father or
mother has moved — or if the baby was surrendered for adoption in a
different state specifically to avoid a challenge.

In one case, Frank Osborne of North Carolina challenged his
5-month-old son's adoption in Utah. The Utah Supreme Court rejected
Mr. Osborne's claim, but a dissenting judge found it unfair that Mr.
Osborne lost a child he had lived with and supported until the mother
"unilaterally and clandestinely" took the boy to Utah.

Senator Mary L. Landrieu, Democrat of Louisiana, will address that
problem in the Proud Father Act, which would create a national
registry and is to be introduced in Congress later this year.

"In a perfect world, everything would be linked so that everyone could
find out if a man had registered or filed for paternity," said Jim
Outman, a lawyer in Atlanta who consulted on the legislation. "But in
the real world, the left hand doesn't always know what the right hand
is doing.

"If there's nothing in the records in their county, their state, how
is an adoption agency supposed to know there's a father who's going to
come forward in two years? There has to be some security for the
adoptive parents and the child."

One self-made expert on the registries is Erik L. Smith, an Ohio
paralegal who fathered a son in Texas and fought for paternal rights
after the baby's placement with an adoptive family. In an unusual
resolution, the boy, now 13, lives with the adoptive family, while Mr.
Smith, a noncustodial father, has visiting rights. Mr. Smith was
naturally intrigued when he heard of the Ohio registry in a class
where the professor explained that babies born to unwed parents could
be adopted without the father's consent unless he registered within 30
days after the birth.

"I asked if that meant that, to protect his rights, a man should
register every time he has sex with a new partner, and he said yes,"
Mr. Smith said.

So he tried. "I called information and asked how I could contact the
Ohio putative father registry, but there was no listing," Mr. Smith
said. "I searched the Internet but couldn't find any address."

While Ohio's system has improved, he said, "as long as registries
aren't publicized, I think they just work as a way to get rid of
fathers like me."

Glenn Spraggs, a 22-year-old Cincinnati man, was recently caught short
by ignorance of the Ohio registry. His girlfriend, Sharicka Watson,
had a baby boy, Thomas, on Dec. 2, and Mr. Spraggs, who also has a
daughter with Ms. Watson, was with her when he was born. Ms. Watson
has told reporters that she discussed adoption with Mr. Spraggs, but
he said he had no warning that less than two weeks after the birth,
Ms. Watson would surrender Thomas for adoption.

"No one told me anything," Mr. Spraggs said. "When I found out he was
gone, I called the police to see if they could help get him back, or
file kidnapping charges or something, but they said there was nothing
they could do because it was an adoption. By the time I heard about
the registry, it was too late."

Although the Ohio registry gives men 30 days to file, a judge
terminated Mr. Spraggs's parental rights when Thomas was 19 days old.
After Mr. Spraggs hired a lawyer, the adoption agency returned Thomas
to Ms. Watson, who now wants to raise him. A custody hearing in the
case is scheduled for tomorrow.

Carol Sanger, a professor at Columbia Law School, said registries
reflected a deep societal belief that unmarried fathers are
irresponsible.

"If we want registries to mean anything," Professor Sanger said, "we'd
have to teach them in every sex education curriculum in every school,
and publicize them everywhere."

In Florida, the 2003 law creating the registry requires the State
Department of Health "within existing resources" to distribute
pamphlets on the registry at every office of the Health Department,
the Department of Children and Families and the Bureau of Vital
Statistics.

But when Barbara Busharis, a professor at Florida State University,
sent students to find the brochures, they had no luck. "They couldn't
find anyone who knew anything about the putative father registry,"
Professor Busharis said.

Mr. Jones's case illustrates the dangers of ignorance. The identity of
his former fiancée is confidential, but Mr. Jones's court filings
detail his struggle to prevent the adoption.

He tried to contact his ex-fiancée, who disappeared from his life when
her parents took her from school and to another county. He called her
friends, her brother, her pastor. He hired a Florida lawyer and filed
a paternity petition the day before the baby was born, in the county
where she previously lived. But that lawyer, now dead, apparently knew
nothing of the putative father registry, and never mentioned
registering.

Mr. Jones is appealing the termination of his rights. "I don't think
there's any greater right that you could trespass on than a parent's
right to his child," he said.

In her brief, Allison Perry, Mr. Jones's lawyer, called the Florida
registry "a well-kept secret," with just 47 registrants for the 89,436
out-of-wedlock births in 2004. Mr. Jones, living in Arizona, had no
reason to know of it. The adoption agency that alerted him to the
pregnancy never mentioned it, and when the agency later sent him a
letter, it enclosed information on a Florida registry for birth
parents interested in a reunion when the children grew up, but nothing
on the putative father registry.

Jeanne Tate, a lawyer for the adoption agency, said that because it
represented the birth mother's interests, it could not advise Mr.
Jones of his rights. Even the call to Mr. Jones went beyond the
agency's legal obligations, she said.

"What's good about the law is that it provides clear guidance on
whether a baby is or isn't free for adoption," she said, "so you don't
get into those heart-wrenching situations where a baby who's been
placed has to be removed."

Generally, fathers who have missed registry deadlines have lost their
court cases. But Ms. Perry argues that the Florida law, applied as
mechanically as in the Jones case, is an unconstitutional intrusion on
men's fundamental rights.

"Jeremiah Jones did everything he could reasonably do to establish a
relationship with his child," she said. "It's just inconceivable that
the government can take away his child because he missed a filing
deadline."
A jury is 12 individuals who decides who has the best lawyer.
- Mark Twain
  #360  
Old March 21st 06, 12:47 AM posted to alt.child-support,alt.mens-rights,alt.support.divorce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The right to abandon your child (aka - Roe v. Wade for Men)

It's a good place to start. Of course there has always been men *and*
women who behave badly, but not as much as we see today. Frankly, I'm
ashamed of the antics of my gender.

Lost Lurker wrote:
tonita wrote:

If men behave badly,
what do you expect? It's what they've been trained to do.


like dogs? ;-) Do you seriously want to blame all "feminists" on all
men who "behave badly"?

LL


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NFJA Position Statement: Child Support Enforcement Funding Dusty Child Support 0 March 2nd 06 01:49 AM
AL: Court issues history-making decision in child custody case Dusty Child Support 1 August 3rd 05 01:07 AM
Child Support Policy and the Welfare of Women and Children Dusty Child Support 0 May 13th 04 12:46 AM
Kids should work. ChrisScaife Foster Parents 16 December 7th 03 05:27 AM
So much for the claims about Sweden Kane Spanking 10 November 5th 03 07:31 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 ParentingBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.