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What's fair with my partner?



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 15th 03, 08:49 PM
Joelle
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Default What's fair with my partner?

The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and 'women'
and it would be just as valid :-)


Well maybe, but my experience is that women are worse than men when it comes to
trying "train" their man. As long as they get enough sex, men seem to be a lot
easier to satisfy :-)

Joelle
  #12  
Old October 16th 03, 12:13 AM
Paul Fritz
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Posts: n/a
Default What's fair with my partner?


"Joelle" wrote in message
...
The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and

'women'
and it would be just as valid :-)


Well maybe, but my experience is that women are worse than men when it

comes to
trying "train" their man. As long as they get enough sex, men seem to be

a lot
easier to satisfy :-)

Joelle


And beer and I'll agree LOL


  #13  
Old October 16th 03, 12:16 AM
Paul Fritz
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Default What's fair with my partner?


"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

Paul Fritz wrote in message
...
Darn it Joelle,
I agree with every word you said.

The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and

'women'
and it would be just as valid :-)



Oh you think so do you? lol


Yeah, I think men can get desperate and choose "less then perfect" as well,
and figure she'll adapt and it would be equally damaging for a man to bring
a woman into the house for 'sleep overs' with the kids there.



T




  #14  
Old October 16th 03, 12:41 AM
Rhonda
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Posts: n/a
Default What's fair with my partner?

"Paul Fritz" wrote in message ...


Oh, I can see, as far as you're concerned, I'm climbing further and
further into my hole of deception.

I'm responding with hesitance because the opinions are already there,
somewhat strongly, I might add. I feel like I'm putting myself into a
position of defense.....but I'm compelled, again, to respond.

Do you not think that it's possible to work with a relationship
towards understanding each other's needs, desires and expectations?
Can it not be so much about changing the person him or herself, but at
working towards what both partners need? A relationship is give and
take and learning to understand each other. A relationship is never
easy. It involves work to reap the rewards....and NO, sex is not the
reward I'm speaking of. Sex is a natural extension of a relationship
but not the end all and be all.

Yeah, well, maybe so, but it seems that every woman I talk to feels
that she's had to "train" the guy in her life at some point


Yea and my experience is that women who think they can change men end up
bitterly disappointed and surprised that an elephant never did turn into a
giraff.


Not necessarily so. The friends I've spoken to have actually worked
towards a better relationship through communication of their wants and
needs and expectations. And, by the way, it should work both ways.


I know
that sounds crazy, but the reality is that if you have certain
expectations in a relationship, you have to let your partner know what
it is that you expect.


Of course and when those non-negotiable expectations (we all have to give

and
take and some expectations may need to be negotiated) are not met you LOOK
ELSEWHERE - do not expect a man - or anyone to be someone they are not to

meet
your expectations. It's unfair to him and you end up taking it personally

and
being hurt.


Well, if the non-negotiables can't be negotiated, then the couple is
at laugerheads and the relationship has to end. A relationship is
about give and take and compromise...as long as we don't compromise
the very person that we are. After 15 months, we're still
experiencing issues and I suppose, in every relationship, stuff always
crops up now and again. Whoever expects otherwise is unrealistic. In
most cases, one person feels more strongly about an issue than
another. If both partners value the relationship, then a compromise
can be made. At times one will give a little and at others, the other
will give. If both are too stubborn and selfish, then they shouldn't
or aren't even capable of being in a relationship. Just because a
partner compromises with his partner doesn't necessarily mean he or
she is being someone other than him or herself.


When I've talked to different women about some of
my frustrations with my partner at times, they said that they had some
of the same issues.


BECAUSE THEY ARE DATING THE WRONG MEN!


Really? So you think that in a healthy relationship, there are no
frustrations? You think that in a healthy relationship there are no
conflicts to be ironed out between mutual respect, discussion and
compromise? I'd love to live on your planet.

Just because most of the women you know are doing this does not mean it is

a
good and normal thing. This is a thing women do that cause them pain.

They
pick the wrong man and then think they can change him. They get so

desperate
that they will never meet a suitable man that they grab onto the first

"okay"
man (sometimes he's not even okay) and then try to make him something he's

not,
and when he doesn't change- he's a jerk and they are hurt because he

remained
who he always was.


Oh, so then if there are conflicts and confrontations, he must be the
wrong man? The people you are talking about are both too stubborn to
talk through things, work through things with open communication.
That's what it comes down to. I've dated a lot before meeting my
current partner....some were jerks, and some were nice enough but not
what I was looking for. I didn't just grab onto this one. A lot of
thought went into it beforehand. If you think that you can foresee
every issue that's going to arise in a relationship, I'd have to
disagree. It takes a long time to figure out all the workings of a
relationship and it takes really good communication, understanding and
motivation to keep it going. And, yes, sometimes there is doubt and
frustration, feelings of distance and closeness. Anyone who thinks
otherwise, well, good luck.


You'd instantly take a liking to him. He's
personable, loves people and loves to laugh.


Actually I tend to be suspicious of those "charming" types.


Would you slot everybody with the characteristics of "personable,
loves people and loves to laugh" as those "charming" types? Have you
been hurt a lot? After being shafted around by assholes enough times,
anybody would put up the armour. There's a middle ground between
being naive and losing all trust in mankind. I haven't hardened to
that degree yet. I've been through enough life experience to roll
with the punches and still have a little room left for faith in my
heart. Oh, and if you think that I'm referring to being shafted
around by a lot of assholes because of poor judgement in my life
experiences, actually, I'm not. I was referring to my one separation
after 15 years but moreso, after the loss of both of my parents.
Those kinds of life experiences have actually built strength of
character within me and have not instilled a bitterness and lack of
faith in the future.



I
have to remind him that it costs ME money when he stays at my house on
weekends, that I want him to pay for certain things and put more
thought into certain things (like birthday celebrations, for
instance).


Okay you like to nag. He seems to enjoy being nagged. That's what you

signed
up for. So stop bitching about it. You are never going to stop having to

nag
him. That's who he is. Either accept it or get out. But stop taking it
personally that he is NOT GOING TO CHANGE. That's my point. Put up or

shut up
or get out.


Hmmm...actually, I've never been referred to as a nag by my ex, my
kids or my partner. However, I do assert myself at certain times. I
WANT this relationship to work....not by changing who he is, but by
having him recognize what I need. I wouldn't know if my partner
enjoys being nagged. I don't believe I've ever met anybody who does.
Furthermore, I may have sounded like I was bitching in my first letter
because I was upset, but I don't believe that my successive letters
demonstrated bitching at all. Do you think that this discussion is
"bitching"? Are you insinuating that I signed up on this newsgroup to
nag?

After talking about all of this, and
even sharing the letters I've received here, he's agreed to help me


You don't think it's bizarre that you two are arranging your relationship

based
on advice from strangers on the internet?


Is that the way you see it? Do you think that this discussion began
and ended with this newsgroup? If it had, I would have already dumped
him. Did you not, perhaps, think about the fact that relationships
are about loyalty and sharing? He's the third party here and I wasn't
about to keep this from him. I told him I wrote the letter before I
got any responses. I was frustrated and sometimes I question
myself...Am I justified in my feelings or is it just that my emotions
sometimes get in the way. It's about being introspective and self
evaluating....so I came to a third party. Doesn't mean I have to
agree whole-heartedly....just means I receive other points of view.
This communication with the newsgroup was about ME and MY feelings.

As for the discretion with my kids, I realize they aren't stupid and
what I meant was that we always sleep in clothes and never walk around
in underwear.


Well I'm not the one that brought up the sleeping arrangements but since

you
brought it up, I think you are giving a horrible example to your children

by
bringing a man with whom you have no committment into your house and

forcing
them to live with them. And you are kidding yourself if you think they

don't
know exactly what is going on.


This man and I have been together every day for the past 15 months.
Physical closeness isn't taboo! Do you think that teaching your
children about sex is pretending that it doesn't exist??? You talk
about "FORCING" them to live with him. Is that the way you see
people? Actually, although my older son is usually indifferent, being
almost 16, my younger son really gets along well with him and enjoys
when he's there. In the beginning, we were very careful not to behave
in ways that were offensive to my kids. In the beginning, I wouldn't
even let him come into my driveway to pick me up. The first time my
younger son saw me lean against my partner on the couch (we were
sitting up), he practically freaked out. I knew he wasn't ready....so
I toned even that much down. Now he can see us hug while he's
standing right there and I feel good about that. He's seeing a warmth
in a man and a woman which he didn't experience with his mother and
father. This is a boy who is very affectionate and loving and
sensitive...and the older one, who has always been less demonstrative,
loves when I approach him and hug him. We all need that. So,
horrible that my partner is here? Not in my books. I'm not a
"flavour of the month" kind of woman. If I gave up on relationships
so fast because of the conflicts that arise here and there, you'd have
a point. I am the type of person, on the other hand, who takes great
care in working things through....WITHOUT having to compromise the
person that I am with all my needs, hopes and desires.


Honestly, I don't think that the first thing on
their mind is what's going on behind my bedroom door.


Yarite. Whatever rationalization you make to make it allright in your

mind.
Because as long as you get a sex life, the kids will be fine.


Sounds to me like you could use a sex life!!! I don't know about you,
but when I was a kid, I certainly wasn't obsessing over what was going
on behind my parents' bedroom door. Oh, and if I had any idea of the
fact that they might be engaging in that horrible act, I suppose, I'd
be scarred for life? But that's different because they were my
parents, right? It seems to me that you're under the impression that
sex is more important to me than the emotional well being of my kids.
I resent that. When I first separated, I took all the measures to
ensure my kids emotional well being. I was told by a professional in
the field that I have all the skills that I need to be a good parent.
I teach my kids that relationships and physical intimacy are very
healthy in the right context. Sex isn't dirty or taboo. It's very
healthy when two people are mature and can make a responsible
decision. It's ignorance that causes all the problems with sexuality.
If you teach your kids that it's horrible and taboo, those are the
kids that will be all screwed up about the subject. You make it sound
as though I have a different man every month with your attitude and
that couldn't be further from the truth!!!!!



He's a good person with glitches that have to be smoothed out.


Love is accepting a person's glitches. Nobody's perfect. Love is not

changing
and ironing out your loved one. Love is accepting and being accepted,

glitches
and all. As long as you think you can iron him out, you will never be

happy,
and if you continue to think your men need to be changed, you will subject

your
children to a stream of "good men with glitches" in and out of their home.


I should clarify.....There are glitches in certain aspects of our
relationship. Excuse me for the lack in forethought before I strung
that sentence together. It was a thoughtless statement. Of course he
isn't perfect and neither am I. I do take the good with the bad but
that doesn't mean that I can't have certain needs met and he can't
have his needs met too. There will always be qualities in a person
that you like and some that you put up with. Personally, I sincerely
believe that the good qualities far outweigh the bad where my partner
is concerned.

Rhonda


Joelle

  #15  
Old October 16th 03, 03:57 AM
Joelle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What's fair with my partner?

Do you not think that it's possible to work with a relationship
towards understanding each other's needs, desires and expectations?


Yes, but that's not what we are talking about it, as much as you'd like to
obfiscate the obvious. You are living with a Mama's Boy and your initial post
was hurt that he was still acting like a mama's boy and people are trying to
tell you that he is what he is - and you can go off on all the high falootin
philisophical dissertations you want, but it doesn't change what you have.

Can it not be so much about changing the person him or herself, but at
working towards what both partners need


But if he needs a mama and you were that for him at first and now you are mad
because you want to change the rules, who is the one being unfair?

Really? So you think that in a healthy relationship, there are no
frustrations?


Could you like quote where I said that?
..

You think that in a healthy relationship there are no
conflicts to be ironed out between mutual respect, discussion and
compromise? I'd love to live on your planet.


Well on my planet I don't write resumes and make web pages for the men I date.
I wouldn't even do that for my own son, cuz not only do I not want to date a
mama's boy, I don't want to raise a mama's boy. You are more than welcome to
live on my planet, but first you have to wake up and smell the coffee.


Oh, so then if there are conflicts and confrontations, he must be the
wrong man?


No, if he's a mama's boy and you don't want to deal with a mama's boy, he's the
wrong man.

Would you slot everybody with the characteristics of "personable,
loves people and loves to laugh" as those "charming" types?


No, but mama's boys with those characteristics tend to be "charming types"
That's how they suck you into taking care of them.

Have you
been hurt a lot?


Well you can't love without being hurt, but I think I learned enough from early
mistakes to avoid making the big mistakes that cuz the bigger pain.

Hmmm...actually, I've never been referred to as a nag by my ex, my
kids or my partner.


Well if you were telling me what to do as much as you are telling Mama's Boy
what to do I'd call you a nag. But you don't ever say that to your mama.
Especially if you enjoy her nagging.

I wouldn't know if my partner
enjoys being nagged.


Of course he enjoys it. He depends on it. It reminds him of his mother. You
remind him of his mother. That's the attraction.

Are you insinuating that I signed up on this newsgroup to
nag?


Maybe. Nagging's not all bad ya know. We need to do that for each other.You
do like to lecture I notice.

Do you think that teaching your
children about sex is pretending that it doesn't exist???


Do you think teaching children about sex means bringing your lover in to live
with them?

You talk
about "FORCING" them to live with him. Is that the way you see
people?


No, I just recognize the powerless position of children in this situation.
They have no choice over who you drag into their home.

my younger son really gets along well with him and enjoys
when he's there.


Oh great. No wonder you are reluctant to consider this might not be an
appropriate relationship. You've got your kids dependent on someone who may or
may not stick around.

Sounds to me like you could use a sex life!!!


Yup. Sex is the answer to everything.

you're under the impression that
sex is more important to me than the emotional well being of my kids.
I resent that


Why on earth would you have an emotional reaction to a stranger's opinion of
you? Unless it hit a nerve of truth somewhere?

I was told by a professional in
the field that I have all the skills that I need to be a good parent.


You seem overly concerned with affirmation from other people. Does this
newsgroup think you are being fair (of course when the majority opinion was
dump the chump then you weren't as interested) - does a professional think you
are a good parent...

Personally, I sincerely
believe that the good qualities far outweigh the bad where my partner
is concerned.


Okey dokey - everything's wonderful.

Joelle
  #16  
Old October 16th 03, 04:24 AM
Rhonda
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What's fair with my partner?

"Paul Fritz" wrote in message ...
"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

Paul Fritz wrote in message
...
Darn it Joelle,
I agree with every word you said.

The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and

'women'
and it would be just as valid :-)



Oh you think so do you? lol


Yeah, I think men can get desperate and choose "less then perfect" as well,
and figure she'll adapt and it would be equally damaging for a man to bring
a woman into the house for 'sleep overs' with the kids there.


You all must be perfect people since you seem to think that it's
possible to find the "perfect" partner.

As for your idea of "sleepovers" being so damaging for the kids, do
you think that the only time this would be acceptable would be if the
kids saw you under the alter exchanging vows first? And if that's the
case, would you enforce that in your kids when they reach that stage?
And if you so choose to make the big decision to cohabit with your
partner (through marriage if that would be your inclination), would
you just pounce this on your kids suddenly without them having the
chance to slowly get used to the idea or would you wait until they too
get married....of course, as virgins, because any other way would be
horrifying.
  #19  
Old October 16th 03, 12:06 PM
Paul Fritz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What's fair with my partner?


"Rhonda" wrote in message
om...
"Paul Fritz" wrote in message

...
"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

Paul Fritz wrote in message
...
Darn it Joelle,
I agree with every word you said.

The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and

'women'
and it would be just as valid :-)



Oh you think so do you? lol


Yeah, I think men can get desperate and choose "less then perfect" as

well,
and figure she'll adapt and it would be equally damaging for a man to

bring
a woman into the house for 'sleep overs' with the kids there.


You all must be perfect people since you seem to think that it's
possible to find the "perfect" partner.

As for your idea of "sleepovers" being so damaging for the kids, do
you think that the only time this would be acceptable would be if the
kids saw you under the alter exchanging vows first? And if that's the
case, would you enforce that in your kids when they reach that stage?
And if you so choose to make the big decision to cohabit with your
partner (through marriage if that would be your inclination), would
you just pounce this on your kids suddenly without them having the
chance to slowly get used to the idea or would you wait until they too
get married....of course, as virgins, because any other way would be
horrifying.


And another swooshing sound! And obviously, the guy sleeping over is not
the only person in the house damaging the kids.



  #20  
Old October 16th 03, 01:40 PM
Joelle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What's fair with my partner?

You all must be perfect people since you seem to think that it's
possible to find the "perfect" partner.


You are the one that wants the perfect partner and think you can change someone
into that. I'm saying accept a person with their imperfections and if you
can't accept them, look elsewhere.

I'd say your view of training a man into the perfect partner is the
perfectionist view.

Joelle
 




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