Sibling rivalry

My family has a situation that we need help with. We have three girls 15,
12, and 11. DD2 and DD3 have never gotten along and pretty much DD2 cannot
stand DD3. DD3 is a typical 11 year-old in that she is the annoying little
sister. DD3 does have issues though, she is loud, not too clued in socially,
and has anxiety and lots of fears. We have been to therapists and I have
talked about her before on this list. She is very argumentative and doesn't
do chores when asked. DD1 and DD2 have become much closer over the years
because they have more in common. It seems it is now the oldest two against
the rest of the household. However, the problem we are having is that how
can we stop the hatred dd2 has for dd3. DD1 is kind of neutral, but she will
gang up on DD3 and will be mean also. For right now, we have 4 bedrooms, 2
up and 2 down. Hubby and I share one small room down, and DD3 has the other
small bedroom downstairs. The two older girls have the two larger rooms
upstairs. It has been a bone of contention with DD3 because she feels even
more left out and the two older girls pretty much exclude her in all
activities and they hole up upstairs and will not let DD3 come up to be with
them. Bedtime is especially hard because DD1 and DD2 will stay up (even
though we tell them to go to bed) and will talk and laugh. DD3 thinks this
is horribly unfair and wants to be moved up there with them. No one wants to
share a room with DD3. We thought of moving DD1 down to our room and hubby
and I move upstairs, but I really don't want to do this because of I am
uncomfortable with having the kids downstairs and me upstairs.
I just don't know what to do anymore. They fight constantly and it truly is
putting a strain on hubby and I. How much should hubby and I be in their
fights? We intervene if they hurt each other, but when DD3 cries because her
feelings are hurt once again by being left out, what should I do? I just
cannot stand all the hatred this family seems to have. Thanks for any input
anyone can give me.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

We thought of moving DD1 down to our room and hubby
and I move upstairs, but I really don't want to do this because of I am
uncomfortable with having the kids downstairs and me upstairs.
I just don't know what to do anymore. They fight constantly and it truly is
putting a strain on hubby and I. How much should hubby and I be in their
fights? We intervene if they hurt each other, but when DD3 cries because her
feelings are hurt once again by being left out, what should I do? I just
cannot stand all the hatred this family seems to have. Thanks for any input
anyone can give me.


awwww, Sue, it sounds really hard, you have my sympathies.

Could you switch rooms such that you are still downstairs? Or maybe
investigate security things such that you would feel confident being
upstairs with them downstairs.

Personally I feel you do need to intervene both when hurtful things are
said as well as physical hurts, we know the old saying "sticks and
stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me", isn't true, if
you only intervene for physical things, it's acting as if that is
true. As for how to intervene, I really don't know, my kids are much
younger. I wonder if something like taking each of them out
individually, doing something mother and daughterish together and really
having a good chat about feelings, how things make them feel, how they
think their siblings might feel etc. and also including how they make
you and DH feel.

You say you've been to therapy, was that recently? or a while back?
Maybe whilst working on other things you need to spend some time really
searching for a good family therapist, one that has a track record of
success with teenage girls, so you've got that as a back up option.

Good Luck

Anne

"Sue" wrote in message
news:kcSdnao52aZAK1DanZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
My family has a situation that we need help with. We have three girls 15,
12, and 11. DD2 and DD3 have never gotten along and pretty much DD2 cannot
stand DD3. DD3 is a typical 11 year-old in that she is the annoying little
sister. DD3 does have issues though, she is loud, not too clued in
socially, and has anxiety and lots of fears. We have been to therapists
and I have talked about her before on this list. She is very argumentative
and doesn't do chores when asked. DD1 and DD2 have become much closer over
the years because they have more in common. It seems it is now the oldest
two against the rest of the household. However, the problem we are having
is that how can we stop the hatred dd2 has for dd3. DD1 is kind of
neutral, but she will gang up on DD3 and will be mean also. For right now,
we have 4 bedrooms, 2 up and 2 down. Hubby and I share one small room
down, and DD3 has the other small bedroom downstairs. The two older girls
have the two larger rooms upstairs. It has been a bone of contention with
DD3 because she feels even more left out and the two older girls pretty
much exclude her in all activities and they hole up upstairs and will not
let DD3 come up to be with them. Bedtime is especially hard because DD1
and DD2 will stay up (even though we tell them to go to bed) and will talk
and laugh. DD3 thinks this is horribly unfair and wants to be moved up
there with them. No one wants to share a room with DD3. We thought of
moving DD1 down to our room and hubby and I move upstairs, but I really
don't want to do this because of I am uncomfortable with having the kids
downstairs and me upstairs.
I just don't know what to do anymore. They fight constantly and it truly
is putting a strain on hubby and I. How much should hubby and I be in
their fights? We intervene if they hurt each other, but when DD3 cries
because her feelings are hurt once again by being left out, what should I
do? I just cannot stand all the hatred this family seems to have. Thanks
for any input anyone can give me.

I'm coming from the point where I was #2. I got (and get) better on with #1
than #3.

The two points I'd pick up on from your post is:
1. #3 "doesn't do chores when she's asked". We had that. What happened when
he refused to do the chores? Not much, except he was less likely to be asked
next time because he wouldn't do it.
I felt that I had to do the chores with #1 but #3 got the privileges sooner.
It seemed to be that if #1 was expected to do a chore at a particular age,
then I was expected to do it at that age-but #3 was never expected to do it.
He might be asked a couple of times, but when he didn't do it the matter was
dropped. OTOH if I had to wait for a particular age to get an item I wanted,
then he got it pretty much at the same time as me because "it wasn't fair if
#1 and #2 had it and he was missing out".
I don't know whether that rings bells for you, but that was my feeling
growing up, and looking back, I still think that, which isn't true of all
the "not fair" feelings I had growing up.

2. #1 and #2 will stay up "even though we tell them go to bed". I think you
need to put it bluntly to them. If they're laughing and playing after they
should have gone to bed then it is disturbing #3. Maybe that needs to be a
deal. They keep quiet at bedtime or #3 will be in with them.
I think you've said in a previous post that #3 tends to fiddle with their
things, breaking them? If that's the case, I'd think that maybe you could
have #1 and #2 sharing, and have the downstairs room as either a spare, or a
room for them to do homework/daytime things in? I'd have thought that
forcing one of them to share with #3 could cause much more resentment ("she
cried until she got her own way")

One think I will add which was something I found from my situation. I felt
that I missed out by being relatively easy. If I was asked to compromise
what I wanted to do in favour of #3 and I said "yes, sure", which I quite
often did, although I'd have rather not. I got a tick in the "that was easy,
we ask her again next time because she didn't make a fuss" box rather than
"she compromised this time, she gets the choice next time" box. And I still
feel that occurs 20 years down the line.

Something I wish my parents did was to get me to write down all my
grievances. Give #2 a few days to do it. Look at them when she's not there.
Don't justify them. Some of them you will look at and say "that is fair."
Some you may look at and then catch yourself doing. Apologise if there's
specific times you've caused problems. Don't get cross if you think they're
unreasonable. If there's any you think you can work out, go back to her.

And don't praise #3 up to the nines to #2 hoping that will make #2 realise
how wonderful she is. My parents did this and all it made me feel was that
they never praised me like that, and made me feel more tossed aside.

And don't always expect them to include #3. You want to get them to want to
include her not feel that she's always forced on them.
Good luck.
Debbie

In article , Anne Rogers says...

We thought of moving DD1 down to our room and hubby
and I move upstairs, but I really don't want to do this because of I am
uncomfortable with having the kids downstairs and me upstairs.
I just don't know what to do anymore. They fight constantly and it truly is
putting a strain on hubby and I. How much should hubby and I be in their
fights? We intervene if they hurt each other, but when DD3 cries because her
feelings are hurt once again by being left out, what should I do? I just
cannot stand all the hatred this family seems to have. Thanks for any input
anyone can give me.


awwww, Sue, it sounds really hard, you have my sympathies.

Could you switch rooms such that you are still downstairs? Or maybe
investigate security things such that you would feel confident being
upstairs with them downstairs.

Yeah - seemed to me that an option that might help wasn't considered. Two
bedrooms up, two bedrooms down - it's 2 and 3 that really have the clash, #1 is
more neutral. Some of the resentment is 1 and 2 upstairs staying awake later at
night both being upstairs.

So....stay downstairs (with two bedrooms downstairs where did you get that you'd
have to move upstairs??), and switch #3 out of the downstairs bedroom with #2.
Then #1 and #3 are upstairs - they get along better than #2 and #3. Adults and
#2 downstairs. And then enforce bedtime for both the younger girls.

Not that this will solve everything of course. But setting up the household
space to the best advantage has to be part of the solution.

Banty

Sue wrote:
My family has a situation that we need help with. We have three girls 15,
12, and 11. DD2 and DD3 have never gotten along and pretty much DD2 cannot
stand DD3. DD3 is a typical 11 year-old in that she is the annoying little
sister. DD3 does have issues though, she is loud, not too clued in socially,
and has anxiety and lots of fears. We have been to therapists and I have
talked about her before on this list. She is very argumentative and doesn't
do chores when asked. DD1 and DD2 have become much closer over the years
because they have more in common. It seems it is now the oldest two against
the rest of the household. However, the problem we are having is that how
can we stop the hatred dd2 has for dd3. DD1 is kind of neutral, but she will
gang up on DD3 and will be mean also. For right now, we have 4 bedrooms, 2
up and 2 down. Hubby and I share one small room down, and DD3 has the other
small bedroom downstairs. The two older girls have the two larger rooms
upstairs. It has been a bone of contention with DD3 because she feels even
more left out and the two older girls pretty much exclude her in all
activities and they hole up upstairs and will not let DD3 come up to be with
them. Bedtime is especially hard because DD1 and DD2 will stay up (even
though we tell them to go to bed) and will talk and laugh.

Gee, I would make it clear what the consequences for this would be
(e.g., not TV the next day or next weekend, until they go to bed when
told) and make them stick.

DD3 thinks this
is horribly unfair and wants to be moved up there with them. No one wants to
share a room with DD3. We thought of moving DD1 down to our room and hubby
and I move upstairs, but I really don't want to do this because of I am
uncomfortable with having the kids downstairs and me upstairs.
I just don't know what to do anymore. They fight constantly and it truly is
putting a strain on hubby and I. How much should hubby and I be in their
fights? We intervene if they hurt each other, but when DD3 cries because her
feelings are hurt once again by being left out, what should I do? I just
cannot stand all the hatred this family seems to have. Thanks for any input
anyone can give me.

Maybe doing things as a family, like going skiing or swimming will help.
Other team building activities and doing positive things together might
help as well.

You might also watch Nanny 9-1-1 and supernanny for some ideas. You
could always try calling the shows and get on. ;-)

Jeff

Banty wrote:

We thought of moving DD1 down to our room and hubby
and I move upstairs, but I really don't want to do this because of I am
uncomfortable with having the kids downstairs and me upstairs.
I just don't know what to do anymore. They fight constantly and it truly is
putting a strain on hubby and I. How much should hubby and I be in their
fights? We intervene if they hurt each other, but when DD3 cries because her
feelings are hurt once again by being left out, what should I do? I just
cannot stand all the hatred this family seems to have. Thanks for any input
anyone can give me.

When you have an uneven number, there is ALWAYS going to be two
against one.

It also seems to me that the middle child is the one with the worst
problem, and maybe she should be the one who needs counseling. Middle
children often don't get their needs seen to.

Yeah - seemed to me that an option that might help wasn't considered. Two
bedrooms up, two bedrooms down - it's 2 and 3 that really have the clash, #1 is
more neutral. Some of the resentment is 1 and 2 upstairs staying awake later at
night both being upstairs.

So....stay downstairs (with two bedrooms downstairs where did you get that you'd
have to move upstairs??), and switch #3 out of the downstairs bedroom with #2.
Then #1 and #3 are upstairs - they get along better than #2 and #3. Adults and
#2 downstairs. And then enforce bedtime for both the younger girls.

Not that this will solve everything of course. But setting up the household
space to the best advantage has to be part of the solution.

We had a like situation although our house was two down and three up
and mine at the time were 12, 10, 5 and 2. We were upstairs with 5
and 2 and 12 and 10 were downstairs.

I would second Banty' option. Definitely separate 1 and 2. Two
can come downstairs with you. The other thing that I was thinking is
that two and three are not very far apart in age. I would let 1 stay
up late and have more privileges than 2 and 3 get. I wouldn't let 2
ride along on 1's coat-tails just because she 'gets along' with 1. Two
is three years younger than 1.

My older two were fairly evenly matched physically, and I find out now
some years later that they did fight physically. But my attitude was
that if they came and complained to me, they all got time out or
restriction or whatever I decided was appropriate. I got that from my
mom - she said that if there was a fight that both parties were at
fault.

That was because my mother had an absolute prohibition against
fighting and I was supposed to be older and to 'know better' so I
wasn't to hit my baby sister. My sister soon found out and would
irritate me until I would throw something at her or hit her, and then
she would run to mom saying Rosalie hit me, and mom would punish me.
One day she heard the whole thing from the beginning and realized what
my sister was doing.

So if there are any fights - separate all of them. None of them can
play together. If the older two want to play together, they have to
deal with their sister without causing a ruckus. And 3 can't come
crying because her feelings are hurt. And she must do her chores.

"Sue" wrote in message
news:kcSdnao52aZAK1DanZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
My family has a situation that we need help with. We have three girls 15,
12, and 11. DD2 and DD3 have never gotten along and pretty much DD2 cannot
stand DD3. DD3 is a typical 11 year-old in that she is the annoying little
sister. DD3 does have issues though, she is loud, not too clued in
socially, and has anxiety and lots of fears. We have been to therapists
and I have talked about her before on this list. She is very argumentative
and doesn't do chores when asked. DD1 and DD2 have become much closer over
the years because they have more in common. It seems it is now the oldest
two against the rest of the household. However, the problem we are having
is that how can we stop the hatred dd2 has for dd3. DD1 is kind of
neutral, but she will gang up on DD3 and will be mean also. For right now,
we have 4 bedrooms, 2 up and 2 down. Hubby and I share one small room
down, and DD3 has the other small bedroom downstairs. The two older girls
have the two larger rooms upstairs. It has been a bone of contention with
DD3 because she feels even more left out and the two older girls pretty
much exclude her in all activities and they hole up upstairs and will not
let DD3 come up to be with them. Bedtime is especially hard because DD1
and DD2 will stay up (even though we tell them to go to bed) and will talk
and laugh. DD3 thinks this is horribly unfair and wants to be moved up
there with them. No one wants to share a room with DD3. We thought of
moving DD1 down to our room and hubby and I move upstairs, but I really
don't want to do this because of I am uncomfortable with having the kids
downstairs and me upstairs.
I just don't know what to do anymore. They fight constantly and it truly
is putting a strain on hubby and I. How much should hubby and I be in
their fights? We intervene if they hurt each other, but when DD3 cries
because her feelings are hurt once again by being left out, what should I
do? I just cannot stand all the hatred this family seems to have. Thanks
for any input anyone can give me.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)


After a discouraging weekend, I have devised a one-size-fits-all solution to
all problems with all kids. Duct tape. We now know it does not work on
ducts.

(I have no idea how to help with your problem. It sounds terribly difficult.
My gut and inclination is try to speak to your eldests' empathetic spirits.
But I have no idea how one woudl do that. Sorry.)

"Sue" wrote in message
news:kcSdnao52aZAK1DanZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
My family has a situation that we need help with. We have three girls 15,
12, and 11. DD2 and DD3 have never gotten along and pretty much DD2 cannot
stand DD3. DD3 is a typical 11 year-old in that she is the annoying little
sister. DD3 does have issues though, she is loud, not too clued in
socially,


Sue I have no advice at all. Just wanted to let you know that I feel badly.
One of my family members has this very situation as well - 3 girls - all of
it very similar. They were so mean to the youngest - who was also a little
hard to be around. I'm not sure things got a lot better until the oldest
moved out and eventually the second moved out while still in highschool.
Lots going on with the family that wouldn't apply to you. If it helps give
you hope at all they are closer now - that animosity melted away as they
grew up and out. I wish I had some advice to get from here to there but I
got nothing.


--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06

Sue wrote:
My family has a situation that we need help with. We have three girls 15,
12, and 11. DD2 and DD3 have never gotten along and pretty much DD2 cannot
stand DD3. DD3 is a typical 11 year-old in that she is the annoying little
sister. DD3 does have issues though, she is loud, not too clued in socially,
and has anxiety and lots of fears. We have been to therapists and I have
talked about her before on this list. She is very argumentative and doesn't
do chores when asked. DD1 and DD2 have become much closer over the years
because they have more in common. It seems it is now the oldest two against
the rest of the household. However, the problem we are having is that how
can we stop the hatred dd2 has for dd3. DD1 is kind of neutral, but she will
gang up on DD3 and will be mean also.

One question that comes to my mind is that you say
you've had DD3 to therapists, but what support has been provided
to DD1 and DD2? DD3 sounds like a child who is challenging to
understand and get along with. As adults, it isn't easy to
figure out how to work well with challenging adults. Kids are
even less skilled at that sort of thing, generally speaking.
What work has been done with them to help them understand DD3's
issues and provide them with concrete skills to deal with DD3's
challenging behaviors?
It sounds like it would be very easy to get into a
situation where DD1 and DD2 get more frustrated with DD1 than
they can handle, then they attack DD3, then you and DH defend
DD3, which makes DD1 and DD2 even more frustrated (not to mention
jealous and angry), which makes them even more mean to DD1, which
makes you and your DH even more protective, which...well, you get
the picture. If that's the rut you're in, something has to break
that cycle. The only things that come to mind right away are
continuing to work with with DD3 on having more appropriate behavior,
helping DD1 and DD2 deal with their frustration more productively,
and getting the parents out of appearing always to side with DD1.
It seems to me that making these sorts of inroads usually
works better if you can bite off small chunks to work with. Pick
one behavior, figure out what needs to happen, and then make
resolving that issue top priority for everyone for some period of
time. Once you've got that behavior nailed down, move on to the
next, while trying to avoid backsliding on the first behavior. Maybe
that will help a little bit.
What's your assessment of DD3's progress? Is she getting
better at some of the problem behaviors, and DD1 and DD2 aren't
giving her credit for having made at least some progress? Or
have you felt that the main strategy at this point is waiting out
some of DD3's problem behaviors? If the latter, I think it's
especially hard to get DD1 and DD2 to buy into a plan that basically
says cope with an unfair situation until your sister can mature
enough to start making more progress. If the former, maybe you
can get DD1 and DD2 to acknowledge DD3's progress and enlist their
aid in helping DD3 continue to make more progress. Are you so worn
out from dealing with DD3's behaviors that you're running low on
energy to help keep DD3's problem behaviors from impacting DD1 and
DD2 too much? (I think that would be very normal, but might be
another factor irritating DD1 and DD2. They might perceive that
you don't care enough about their feelings, when your perception
is just that you're picking your battles with DD3.)
How challenging is the situation with DD3? How unfair are
things to DD1 and DD2? Are they having to put up with a lot? Or
are we really talking about minor annoyances here? Minor annoyances
add up, of course, but if DD1 & DD2 are really being asked to deal with
a lot from DD3, maybe it would be a good idea to carefully structure
some respite and some rewards for when they do a good job of dealing
with DD3.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Rosalie B. wrote:
[snip]
I would second Banty' option. Definitely separate 1 and 2. Two
can come downstairs with you. The other thing that I was thinking is
that two and three are not very far apart in age. I would let 1 stay
up late and have more privileges than 2 and 3 get. I wouldn't let 2
ride along on 1's coat-tails just because she 'gets along' with 1. Two
is three years younger than 1.
[snip]

Rosalie is right he DD2 seems to be getting some of the priveleges
that DD! gets even though she is quite a bit younger.

I would also work a bit on the relationship between DD1 and DD3. If
you take the two of them out to do things with them as a pair, then it
would give DD1 a chance to build up a relationship with DD3 without
the annoyance of DD2 and DD3 getting in her way.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three