My son

I am very concerned about my son and have expressed this concern with
teachers over the last year or so. His anger and tolerance ability is
getting bad. He is getting to where he is unable to control his emotions and
anger as well as he used to when being harrassed or picked on or bullied by
other students. He gets highly emotional when confronted about it, and
defensive because he automatically feels like he is being attacked by yet
another person. And finds himself in trouble when he feels that it should be
the other student or students in trouble instead, because had they not
provoked him, he would not have lost his cool at all.

My son has dealt with this type of problem(the harrassing, bullying, being
picked on) since practically the beginning of his school experience. There
have been spaces of peace, but not long ones. He is so "tired of it" and
feels like it never does him any good to report anything to anyone, because
it seems that nothing ever happens in regard to his reports.

The No Tolerance rule does not help him in these situations and quite
frankly, that disturbs me. He winds up being the one getting in trouble
because he winds up dealing with it in an unacceptable manner.

I am wondering why the school counselor has not been brought into this
situation with my son. I wonder if it would help him deal with his emotions
if he had some direction from an outside entity other than myself. He is a
great kid. He is compassionate, caring, loving. He has a great sense of
humor and excels in his classes with terrific grades. He has a bright
future, and I am concerned that at his age, I am running out of time in
being able to help him get through school emotionally sane. I fear that he
will lose his cool some day and (accidentally or not) blow his future
somehow. One on one, every adult who knows him adores him, and recognizes
him as a great person. If we could just work on this one thing.

I have many talks with My son, and he really talks to me. We have a great
relationship. And I listen to him. I also scold him when necessary ( which
is often because after all he is 13 now and almost 14). He is not a spoiled
child by any means, but I do defend him when I feel that I need to. It
bothers me to admit that I am at a loss with this situation, because I feel
that I am a great Mom. I love my kids with all my heart and I have great
relationships with each one of them. We talk and listen to each other. And
I guide them as well I possibly can, but I cannot seem to help him with this
situation at school. And all the advise I give him seems to be useless. I
have told him to report these things. He always tells me when he does, and
nothing is ever done about it. I tell him to ignore them. Well, my son is
simply incapable of that. He has tried it and it doesn't work for him. He
fills up and blows up. When I try to get involved after the fact I am told
that because of policy,(The No Tolerance policy) he is at fault since he
"fought back" or defended himself however that was done. I have a problem
with that, but OK. Why aren't there courses on anger management or how to
deal with bullies or how to deal with these situations when there seems to
be no end in sight, or how not to be a bully. Or something useful like that?
Teach these kids what they should have done instead, besides reporting it.
That does not work. I used to be a kid too, and I know that all the rules
to deter this type of behavior are not going to stop it. We should be
teaching these kids what the school expects them to do so they won't wind up
in trouble.

When a student is being harrassed on and on and on and finally pushed to the
point of exploding, or losing self control, he winds up in trouble for it
and what happens to the person pushing the buttons? Nothing. So after the
debt is paid, it happens again and again. Because no one is doing anything
to stop it except the victim, which there again, causes disciplinary action
for the victim. I see this because I am on the outside looking in. I am the
one sitting at home listening to her son cry out of total frustration
because he can't just get through a day at school without something like
this happening, and no one wants to listen or help. I have always told him
the teachers and principal, etc are not the enemy...they are there to help
you and you need to talk to them when these things happen. He doesn't
believe that anymore. That makes it real hard for me to help him when he
thinks I don't know what I am talking about.

He isn't a "baby" by any means. But he IS an emotional wreck at this point.
He has always been really sinsitive and I have tried to toughen him up but
his feelings are too big. And he has too much going on in that head of his.
By the way, he really hates conflict. He hates being yelled at, and he hates
it when he tries to explain and is dismissed (don't we all). He has it in
his head that it is him against the world, and he is a loser.

By the way, he plays Ice Hockey, Roller Hockey, is in the Chess club and
meets every other Wednesday night with an Adult/Teen Chess group, the other
Wednesdays he is meeting with the Youth Group at Church. He is a Boy Scout,
Was selected to take the SAT but could not make it, has received
recommendation to "Who's Who Among American High School Students" and isn't
even in High School yet. Was selected for the Student Ambassadors Program,
and is an all-around great achiever with alot of will to be great. I know
all these things have to mean something. He isn't just some kid who likes
to get into trouble or cause trouble. He isn't just some kid who has a bad
attitude and likes to fight with other students. He is a kid who is sick
and tired being constantly harrassed, picked on, bullied, and getting into
trouble for it. He feels like giving up sometimes. He questioned me on one
occassion about suicide and if it is true about how God feels about it.
That worried me. I had a very long discussion with him that night.

My son needs help and I am reaching out for help as well.

Hi --

You need to demand a meeting with the school counselor. You should also
make an appointment with a child psychiatrist or something of that
nature; the mention of suicidal feelings is a potent clue that something
big is going on. You may need to move your child to a different school.

Please get the referrals to professional help as soon as you can. A
newsgroup isn't sufficient.

I hope you can both work this out.
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

In article , reggi7 wrote:
I am very concerned about my son and have expressed this concern with
teachers over the last year or so. His anger and tolerance ability is
getting bad. He is getting to where he is unable to control his emotions and
anger as well as he used to when being harrassed or picked on or bullied by
other students. He gets highly emotional when confronted about it, and
defensive because he automatically feels like he is being attacked by yet
another person. And finds himself in trouble when he feels that it should be
the other student or students in trouble instead, because had they not
provoked him, he would not have lost his cool at all.

My son has dealt with this type of problem(the harrassing, bullying, being
picked on) since practically the beginning of his school experience. There
have been spaces of peace, but not long ones. He is so "tired of it" and
feels like it never does him any good to report anything to anyone, because
it seems that nothing ever happens in regard to his reports.

Have you talked with the principal of the school about the
unacceptable level of bullying that they are permitting on their campus?
You could research some of the anti-bullying curricula that are
available and ask the teachers and the principal why they aren't using them.

The No Tolerance rule does not help him in these situations and quite
frankly, that disturbs me. He winds up being the one getting in trouble
because he winds up dealing with it in an unacceptable manner.

I am wondering why the school counselor has not been brought into this
situation with my son. I wonder if it would help him deal with his emotions
if he had some direction from an outside entity other than myself. He is a
great kid. He is compassionate, caring, loving. He has a great sense of
humor and excels in his classes with terrific grades. He has a bright
future, and I am concerned that at his age, I am running out of time in
being able to help him get through school emotionally sane. I fear that he
will lose his cool some day and (accidentally or not) blow his future
somehow. One on one, every adult who knows him adores him, and recognizes
him as a great person. If we could just work on this one thing.

I have many talks with My son, and he really talks to me. We have a great
relationship. And I listen to him. I also scold him when necessary ( which
is often because after all he is 13 now and almost 14). He is not a spoiled
child by any means, but I do defend him when I feel that I need to. It
bothers me to admit that I am at a loss with this situation, because I feel
that I am a great Mom. I love my kids with all my heart and I have great
relationships with each one of them. We talk and listen to each other. And
I guide them as well I possibly can, but I cannot seem to help him with this
situation at school. And all the advise I give him seems to be useless. I
have told him to report these things. He always tells me when he does, and
nothing is ever done about it. I tell him to ignore them. Well, my son is
simply incapable of that. He has tried it and it doesn't work for him. He
fills up and blows up. When I try to get involved after the fact I am told
that because of policy,(The No Tolerance policy) he is at fault since he
"fought back" or defended himself however that was done. I have a problem
with that, but OK. Why aren't there courses on anger management or how to
deal with bullies or how to deal with these situations when there seems to
be no end in sight, or how not to be a bully. Or something useful like that?
Teach these kids what they should have done instead, besides reporting it.
That does not work. I used to be a kid too, and I know that all the rules
to deter this type of behavior are not going to stop it. We should be
teaching these kids what the school expects them to do so they won't wind up
in trouble.

There are courses in anger management and dealing with bullies, but
few schools have the resources to teach them. You may find it
worthwhile to consult with a child psychologist about what resources
*are* available in your area. You might also look into having him
take aikido, a martial art that teaches its practioners how to deflect
anger without returning it.

When a student is being harrassed on and on and on and finally pushed to the
point of exploding, or losing self control, he winds up in trouble for it
and what happens to the person pushing the buttons? Nothing.

Talk to the principal about that---verbal bullying should not be
tolerated in the school. If the principal is turning a blind eye to
the bullies, then they will proliferate.

So after the
debt is paid, it happens again and again. Because no one is doing anything
to stop it except the victim, which there again, causes disciplinary action
for the victim. I see this because I am on the outside looking in. I am the
one sitting at home listening to her son cry out of total frustration
because he can't just get through a day at school without something like
this happening, and no one wants to listen or help. I have always told him
the teachers and principal, etc are not the enemy...they are there to help
you and you need to talk to them when these things happen. He doesn't
believe that anymore. That makes it real hard for me to help him when he
thinks I don't know what I am talking about.

You are the adult---you talk with the adults---don't put that
difficult job on his shoulders. Tell them your concerns. Tell them
that the level of bullying they are tolerating on their campus is
simply not acceptable, and that it is their job to do something about
it.

He isn't a "baby" by any means. But he IS an emotional wreck at this point.
He has always been really sinsitive and I have tried to toughen him up but
his feelings are too big. And he has too much going on in that head of his.
By the way, he really hates conflict. He hates being yelled at, and he hates
it when he tries to explain and is dismissed (don't we all). He has it in
his head that it is him against the world, and he is a loser.

You need to get him to a child psychologist who will help him repair
his self-image and provide him with the mental tools for dealing with
the stress. This is a separate issue from dealing with the school and
trying to fix their broken culture. Trying to "toughen up" an
emotionally sensitive kid does not work, but there are techniques that
do help---go to a professional for help on this one.

By the way, he plays Ice Hockey, Roller Hockey, is in the Chess club and
meets every other Wednesday night with an Adult/Teen Chess group, the other
Wednesdays he is meeting with the Youth Group at Church. He is a Boy Scout,
Was selected to take the SAT but could not make it, has received
recommendation to "Who's Who Among American High School Students" and isn't
even in High School yet. Was selected for the Student Ambassadors Program,
and is an all-around great achiever with alot of will to be great. I know
all these things have to mean something. He isn't just some kid who likes
to get into trouble or cause trouble. He isn't just some kid who has a bad
attitude and likes to fight with other students. He is a kid who is sick
and tired being constantly harrassed, picked on, bullied, and getting into
trouble for it. He feels like giving up sometimes. He questioned me on one
occassion about suicide and if it is true about how God feels about it.
That worried me. I had a very long discussion with him that night.

Worry about suicide---bright kids with social problems get depression
at an alarmingly high rate and suicide is quite common among teens.
Get him to a child psychologist---don't count on the school to do
that, as they have obviously not been dealing with the problem correctly.

My son needs help and I am reaching out for help as well.

Summary:

1) deal with his emotional needs immediately, get professional
help from a good child psychologist to make sure that he
does not get suicidally depressed, to help him learn to
manage his anger, and to repair the damage done by years of
bullying.

2) research anti-bullying curricula and programs. There are
many available, and you can find information by googling
bullying curriculum
and similar key words.

3) Arrange a meeting with the principal and try to find out
why they are being so tolerant of bullying. Get parents of
other victims of the bullies together to form a support
group and demand that the school reform their flawed
culture.

4) Look for ways that he can stand up to the bullies without
resorting to violence. I suggest aikido as a good vehicle
for slowly building confidence and non-violent response, but
you will have to work with him to find what works for him.

------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
Professor of Biomolecular Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
(Senior member, IEEE) (Board of Directors, ISCB)
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Affiliations for identification only.

In article ,
"reggi7" wrote:

He is a kid who is sick
and tired being constantly harrassed, picked on, bullied, and getting into
trouble for it. He feels like giving up sometimes. He questioned me on one
occassion about suicide and if it is true about how God feels about it.
That worried me. I had a very long discussion with him that night.

My son needs help and I am reaching out for help as well.



If he has suicidal ideation, it's time to bring in a professional. I
know it's scary -- but, speaking from experience, so is a suicide
attempt. A good therapist can help more than a Mom can with some of
these issues.

FWIW, my son had similar issues all the way around: a smart kids, well
liked by adults, harrassed at school, anger managemnt issues. We moved
around more than I wanted to, and going to different schools didn't help
much. There were SOME differences in how much harrassment was
tolerated, and how the schools handled it; the best one had him and
some other boys meeting with the counselor once a week for group
therapy, in which they worked on some social skills and anger management
and, when harrassment was noticed, it was dealth with immediately and
firmly. Even there, however, the school cannot see every incident on
the playground or school bus or hallway.

However, things did get considerably better in high school: when the
school was big enough for him to get together and make friends with
other geeky awkward smart kids, the harrassment from others bothered him
less.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

reggi7 wrote:
| I am very concerned about my son and have expressed this concern with
| teachers over the last year or so. His anger and tolerance ability is
| getting bad. He is getting to where he is unable to control his
emotions and
| anger as well as he used to when being harrassed or picked on or
bullied by
| other students. He gets highly emotional when confronted about it, and
| defensive because he automatically feels like he is being attacked by yet
| another person. And finds himself in trouble when he feels that it
should be
| the other student or students in trouble instead, because had they not
| provoked him, he would not have lost his cool at all.
|
| My son has dealt with this type of problem(the harrassing, bullying, being
| picked on) since practically the beginning of his school experience.
There
| have been spaces of peace, but not long ones. He is so "tired of it" and
| feels like it never does him any good to report anything to anyone,
because
| it seems that nothing ever happens in regard to his reports.
snip

What kind of "harrassing, bullying, [and] being picked on" is he
experiencing? Teasing? Intimidation? Physical assault? Is it
centered around some particular characteristic (e.g. race, religion,
intelligence, weight, sexual orientation, etc)?

Have you asked his school to let him see the counselor? (In some states
it is illegal for them to refuse... read your school code.)

If you have confronted his teachers and/or school administrators about
the problem, what do they suggest?

Have you considered moving him to another school? If he is *only*
having social problems at school, and not in any other activity he
attends without a parent, getting him out of that one problematic
situation could do a world of good.



I know that I just posted more questions than answers, but I'm trying to
get a better picture of what's going on.

Susan
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You've received some top rate advice thus far, and I agree with the
consensus; you definitely need to seek psychiatric help with regard to
your son'ssuicidal ideation. It sounds to me as though all of this
incessant teasing and bullying from classmates with no intervention
from the adults in the school has led your son into a (not unvalidated)
sense of hopelessness and helplessness. Who can blame him for acting
out to defend/stand up for himself?! My concern would not be with his
aggression (in fact, I might view this as a positive assertion of
self-protection), but rather, I would be VERY concerned that the
officials in this school have not done anything effective to help your
son with his situation. My heart goes out to you.

In my experience as a special educator, when students have had
difficulties such as this in a school that are unable to be resolved,
it IS possible to get a school referral to transfer your son to a new
school within the district. While this may not seem like the best
solution, if it is something that your son would welcome as a relief
from the abuse he is experiencing at the school, you may want to
consider pursuing this in addition to seeking professional therapy for
management of your son's suicidal ideation and depression.

Have you contacted the school guidance counselor for assistance in this
matter? How has the school principal reacted to your concerns? Your
son's teachers? I would encourage you to contact the school district
superintendant with your concerns and attempt to schedule a meeting
with the super and your son's school officials and teachers to discuss
the matter further. If your son would find relief in transferring to
another school within the district, this would be a topic to discuss at
your meeting.

Please keep us informed with your developments. My thoughts are with
your son and your family!
Sincerely,
Kitt

Thank you all for responding so well on this issue. We have dealt with it
for so long and yes I ahve had meeting after meeting with Teachers and
principals and counselors. I guess I just felt frustrated that he has had
to continue to deal with this with no help and decided that I didn't know
what else to do because I don't get any good ideas around here, so I posted
to this newgroup for some feedback.

You all are wonderful people and May God bless you for taking the time to
care enough to respond. I have a meeting tomorrow by the way with the
Principal and will be pulling in the Counselor and am very interested in the
aikido idea.

Thank you again
~Reggi~
"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"reggi7" wrote:

He is a kid who is sick
and tired being constantly harrassed, picked on, bullied, and getting
into
trouble for it. He feels like giving up sometimes. He questioned me on
one
occassion about suicide and if it is true about how God feels about it.
That worried me. I had a very long discussion with him that night.

My son needs help and I am reaching out for help as well.



If he has suicidal ideation, it's time to bring in a professional. I
know it's scary -- but, speaking from experience, so is a suicide
attempt. A good therapist can help more than a Mom can with some of
these issues.

FWIW, my son had similar issues all the way around: a smart kids, well
liked by adults, harrassed at school, anger managemnt issues. We moved
around more than I wanted to, and going to different schools didn't help
much. There were SOME differences in how much harrassment was
tolerated, and how the schools handled it; the best one had him and
some other boys meeting with the counselor once a week for group
therapy, in which they worked on some social skills and anger management
and, when harrassment was noticed, it was dealth with immediately and
firmly. Even there, however, the school cannot see every incident on
the playground or school bus or hallway.

However, things did get considerably better in high school: when the
school was big enough for him to get together and make friends with
other geeky awkward smart kids, the harrassment from others bothered him
less.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Summary:

1) deal with his emotional needs immediately, get professional
help from a good child psychologist to make sure that he
does not get suicidally depressed, to help him learn to
manage his anger, and to repair the damage done by years of
bullying.

2) research anti-bullying curricula and programs. There are
many available, and you can find information by googling
bullying curriculum
and similar key words.

3) Arrange a meeting with the principal and try to find out
why they are being so tolerant of bullying. Get parents of
other victims of the bullies together to form a support
group and demand that the school reform their flawed
culture.

4) Look for ways that he can stand up to the bullies without
resorting to violence. I suggest aikido as a good vehicle
for slowly building confidence and non-violent response, but
you will have to work with him to find what works for him.

I rarely find a post that takes the words right out of my mouth, but Kevin
has brilliantly summarized exactly what I would recommend as well.

I do have a few questions though. Is your son attending a school with kids
he's known his entire school career? I ask because often in bullying cases
kids get into a pattern or a routine of picking on a kid for things they
might have done or said years back. In this kind of case, pulling your child
from the school and placing him in another school situation where he is an
unknown quantity might solve your problem without a lot of intervention,
although I would not ever skip taking him into counseling.

Does your son have habits or mannerisms that would invoke teasing from his
age peers regardless of where he is? In other words, is your child
physically different, have motor tics, stand out from the crowd, etc. that
would make changing schools a waste of time?

Have you considered homeschooling your son while he is in counseling to help
build his self-esteem and to allow him to 'unschool' all those bad
experiences?

Have you gone to the school each and every time there is a bullying problem
and demanded answers from the administration?

Have you taken this up a step and spoken to the school superintendent?

Have you considered hiring an educational advocate for your child if you
feel unable or incapable of standing up to the school administrators and
demanding the help your son needs?

There are many things you can do to advocate for your son, but it is your
responsibility to seek outside help as soon as possible. Having a child with
suicidal issues myself, when my child's depression became apparent in second
grade I got the help he needed. He is now in 9th grade and is still in
therapy because he needs to have an outlet to speak of his feelings and
frustrations in order to curb his tendancy towards outbursts of violence. In
our situation, bullying and teasing wasn't the issue, it was dealing with
teachers who refused to accomodate my son's abilities, even with his IEP.
His level of frustration at regular schools, both public and private, was so
high that he couldn't even come up with another way of dealing with his
anger but through suicide. Now, with a school that finally works for him and
a lot of therapy behind him, he's become a successful student leader who is
well liked by his peers and the staff. It took a very long time, a lot of
money, even more effort, but you can find the right schooling placement,
even if it is homeschooling, that will allow your child to grow emotionally
as well as educationally.

Please get him the help he needs asap.

M

reggi7 wrote:

I am very concerned about my son and have expressed this concern with
teachers over the last year or so. His anger and tolerance ability is
getting bad. He is getting to where he is unable to control his emotions and
anger as well as he used to when being harrassed or picked on or bullied by
other students. He gets highly emotional when confronted about it, and
defensive because he automatically feels like he is being attacked by yet
another person. And finds himself in trouble when he feels that it should be
the other student or students in trouble instead, because had they not
provoked him, he would not have lost his cool at all.

This is an ongoing issue that Public schools never have confronted.
Its been 10 years post Columbine yet the Gunmen are seen as the
perpetrator NOT the victims.

I was bullied in school. I had this one bully from 6th grade to High
school & tried ALL the pacifist ways schools seem to think work.
even now there is a PSA where kids are told they should "talk it out"
when dealing with bullies... This & other passive ways DO NOT WORK.

I suggest as well your son should take a self defense course.
Wildly throwing punches only encourages the bullies to provoke more.

Now in High School I had to wear a back brace... Imagine a hard plastic
(Hockey or Batting Helmet in thickness) around my waist from breastbone
to lower abdomen. LOL May a bully would forget I had this on & would
throw a punch... Result a very sore hand...

Well One day this bully in Gym class though it would be funny to hide
the brace. Well I confronted him... Everyone gathered around waiting for
the fight... Well after demanding he give it back & him refusing I
hauled of and smacked him open handed... It not only made contact BUT
was heard all over the locker room... Well Mr. Bully was Shocked.
The other Guys stunned... Me I knew a punch was coming...

Well the coach came up and demanded to know what was going on...
I simply told him nothing was going on & I refused to say anymore.
IOW I did not snitch... The Bullying stopped... From then on I was
never bullied.

So I would suggest your son confront the bully & fight. Sure he gets
suspended so before this happens he should get two weeks lesson so
that he will not fall behind..

Another option you COULD take is file assault charges against the
bully. IF they have Pay Phones in an area of the school tell him
he can simply dial 911 (if this is in your area) & report the
assault. the Last courser of action is have your son file a no
contact order & give a copy to the Principal, School Counselor,
Your Son's atty. and a copy for him to keep in his Locker.
Give him a cell phone with enough minutes to call 911.
Should this be taken by said bullies then that is a petty theft
charge... should they use it even more charges can be filed.

Now your going to get MAJOR resistance from the school as
schools like I said do not want to confront this issue.
GET A LAWYER...

As for the Suicidal Thoughts I too agree with the group..

GET HELP.

If he was to snap not only could he harm himself, but you
& your family as well as those at school.

Ike