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#41
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"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... Stephanie Stowe wrote: "Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... I think how it's viewed depends on the teacher. In my experience, the teachers who deliberately give a lot of homework are True Believers. They believe that regular significant amounts of homework will teach children to be responsible, to have a good work ethic, to develop good study habits, etc. etc. etc. They view not completing the homework as a character flaw, and see any parent who isn't on board with the program as insufficiently interested in a quality education for the child. Other teachers can be more amenable to various strategies, but this one can be a bit tricky. It can appear pretty unfair to other kids who are doing the homework until it's done, whatever that takes. Let me ask you this philosophical question from *your* opinion. What is your child's math teacher's responsibility to your child regarding work ethic, responsibility and whatnot as a primary goal? There is a need to assume that the child has a degree of responsibility in order to achieve math skills. But I think that a child's math teacher should be primarily focused on achievement in math. Perhaps I am nuts. Hmmm...it depends. In general, my personal opinion is that I'd be happy as a clam if my child's math teacher focused on achievement in math. But then again, achievement doesn't exist in a vacuum. Both my sons are long on math skills, and math is a much more black and white area in terms of achievement. Personally, I think if my kid can ace the pretest for a math unit, he should either be able to work on the next unit, or he certainly shouldn't have to be doing all the homework for the current unit. With something like writing, it's murkier. Kids need to write to become good at it, and it's always possible for their writing to get better. Kids who have difficulty writing will probably take a very long time to do it. Which is all true and fine but has nothing to do with my objection, which is about a writing (or math or whatever) *focusing* on responsibility and work ethic "skills." All the stuff I've read on helping kids with writing involves giving plenty of time to use an iterative process, with breaks in between, to work up to a clean draft. Well, how the heck am I supposed to do that if there's only one night to produce a clean draft of an essay? Whoops, I digressed a bit there. Anyway, yes, I'd rather they focused on achievement, but doing so leads to some challenges, I think. For instance, what do you do about the child who puts in more than enough time but doesn't achieve? Having graded homework at least gives that child some credit for effort. What is the purpose of the credit? I am a very goal oriented person... to a fault. But conversations and assessments about education get of point a lot IMO. My thought is that the point of education is acquisition of skills and knowledge. Grades are intended to measure progress in the aqcuisition of said skills and knowledge. Homework is supposed to be the exercise that reinforces the skill or knowledge. But far too often, the grade or the homework becomes the end in itself. Since the grade is important to future endeavors, like what college you will get into, it is very important. But what is it, in itself, but a measurement of the skill and/or knowledge for which the grade is received, no matter what it took to get there. What I am trying to say is that people get confused about what it is we are attempting to achieve, not the least some of the teachers I have spoke too. They get caught up in the barrage of legislation and regulation with which they have to comply and all the varying details of a stressful job and forget to keep their eye on the prize. And parents forget Big Time too. They are so concerned with Bobby's grade, that they forget to be concerned with what Bobby's grade is *for* to give some kind of measure of where he is at with the skills. Every child has gifts and talents. Some kids, like I was in school, is never going to have to work for an A in math. But I still got A's. What is that A for? Or more to the point, what is that A supposed to be for? In kindergarten, first grade ... to something, you do not want to kill off interest in learning. You certainly never wan to cripple self esteem. But self esteem ultimately comes from acheivement, not A's. My A's in school were never much of a source of self esteem for me. So at some point, you stop getting letter grades for trying. Or at least, in my world view, you do. I am not sure what point that is. My point is twofold. First, We, teachers, parents, society all lose site of the prize - well rounded, knowledgeble people who can take their place in the workforce, democracy and family with self assurance, critical thinking and ... all that. We get hyper focused on the wrong things. Not did little Genny learn how to complete the square, but did little Genny get a good enough grade? Second, the grades should not be an end in itself. There is a whole system of checks and balances to ensure that it *does* remain the end in itself, and that is doing a disservice to our kids. (Should I tell you exactly what I think of No Child Left Behind? Probably not.) And I don't think it's unreasonable for teachers to have some concerns about children developing some study skills. Well, I guess it is nice. But that's my job. But, like I said before, if you are a true believer that lots of regular homework results in better outcomes (and you could scrape up some research that makes it appear that way), you're likely to see lots of regular homework as a goal in and of itself. And that would be bad IMO. It should not be a goal to itself. It should be a means to an end only. But I am an unreasonable purist! Best wishes, Ericka |
#42
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Stephanie Stowe wrote:
Which is all true and fine but has nothing to do with my objection, which is about a writing (or math or whatever) *focusing* on responsibility and work ethic "skills." It's not that they give assignments about teaching responsibility or work ethic. They just tend to believe it's a happy virtuous cycle where significant regular homework Makes Everything Better, including acquisition of skills. For instance, what do you do about the child who puts in more than enough time but doesn't achieve? Having graded homework at least gives that child some credit for effort. What is the purpose of the credit? To keep a kid whose trying hard from having poor grades? To provide some reward for effort to avoid discouragement? To keep the parents off the teacher's back? I suppose there could be lots of explanations. I am a very goal oriented person... to a fault. But conversations and assessments about education get of point a lot IMO. My thought is that the point of education is acquisition of skills and knowledge. Grades are intended to measure progress in the aqcuisition of said skills and knowledge. Oh, but they get used for so much more, willy nilly. Homework is supposed to be the exercise that reinforces the skill or knowledge. But far too often, the grade or the homework becomes the end in itself. Since the grade is important to future endeavors, like what college you will get into, it is very important. But what is it, in itself, but a measurement of the skill and/or knowledge for which the grade is received, no matter what it took to get there. I suspect that with this approach, you'll find school very frustrating ;-) I have a lot of sympathy for your position, though I think that it works better in theory than in practice at the grade school level. What I am trying to say is that people get confused about what it is we are attempting to achieve, not the least some of the teachers I have spoke too. They get caught up in the barrage of legislation and regulation with which they have to comply and all the varying details of a stressful job and forget to keep their eye on the prize. True of some, but in many cases it's not that they're *forgetting*. They're very much keeping their eyes on the ball that the state and the school district (among others) have told them is more important. They don't haver to agree with that philosophy to understand that their job may depend on their implementing it. Again, lots of individual/school/district/ state variation. And parents forget Big Time too. They are so concerned with Bobby's grade, that they forget to be concerned with what Bobby's grade is *for* to give some kind of measure of where he is at with the skills. Sure, there are lots of parents who are only concerned that their little darling get the right grade. Lots more are concerned with what their child is actually learning, though (at least in my experience, which may not be representative). Every child has gifts and talents. Some kids, like I was in school, is never going to have to work for an A in math. But I still got A's. What is that A for? Or more to the point, what is that A supposed to be for? In kindergarten, first grade ... to something, you do not want to kill off interest in learning. You certainly never wan to cripple self esteem. But self esteem ultimately comes from acheivement, not A's. My A's in school were never much of a source of self esteem for me. Well, it's a lot easier not to get too full of yourself for getting A's than it is not to feel like a personal failure for getting F's ;-) So at some point, you stop getting letter grades for trying. Or at least, in my world view, you do. I am not sure what point that is. Sure. The schools in our area phase out effort grades gradually. My point is twofold. First, We, teachers, parents, society all lose site of the prize - well rounded, knowledgeble people who can take their place in the workforce, democracy and family with self assurance, critical thinking and ... all that. We get hyper focused on the wrong things. Not did little Genny learn how to complete the square, but did little Genny get a good enough grade? Well, but in a perfect world, is Genny's grade not supposed to be an indicator of how well she learned to complete the square? ;-) In that case, it ought to be a pretty good proxy. Alas, this is not a perfect world, especially when dealing with little kids. One could question whether grades are even necessary to this end. (Should I tell you exactly what I think of No Child Left Behind? Probably not.) Well, I doubt you can despise it as much as I do ;-) Best wishes, Ericka |
#43
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In article , Ruth Baltopoulos says...
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... : That strategy works fabulously under normal : circumstances. Under other situations, it doesn't work : out quite so well. [...] : So, if you have a school that is sending home : reasonable amounts and types of homework, and is teaching : the children the material before assigning homework on : it, and your children don't have any extenuating : circumstances that make homework more challenging : than normal, I envy you. [...] : Unfortunately, I believe that the situation here : actively *UNDERMINES* children learning to be responsible : for their own homework by making it virtually impossible : for the children to take full responsibility for it.[...] Well, that sounds horrid and I don't envy you. I guess one of the difficult things for me was hearing many people in the same school district lamenting a situation that I clearly was not experiencing. I am not sure how that could be. My children are good students and have decent study skills, but they are not in the Gifted and Talented Program I do have a problem with 'homework' that is new material, which has happened periodically. I've had mixed experiences with my son's homework. He's now in seventh grade. He's not great at writing, although it's gotten *much* better. However, we have had many an evening where he was completely tied up with a writing assignment, and the teachers (in 6th grade he had *both* English and Reading as separate classes) would tell me it's about 1/2 hours' work. I would look at it, and guess about 15 minutes for *me* to do it. But my son would struggle for a couple of hours. And, yes, the environment is good - lighting, no distractions, I'm nearby if needed, yadda yadda (and I sure got tired of the teachers asking). His other subjects would be assigned too, all coordinated with this 1/2 hours' work that writing was supposed to take. The other problem was that Weekends Were Sacred. No homework on weekends, when our schedule was more relaxed and things like writing could be broken up and made more pleasant. It was all stacked onto Mon. - Thur. AND Scouts had to be some night Mon. - Thur. AND band rehersals and concerts had to be some night Mon. Thur. The after school program was iffy regarding homework time and environment, so we'd often have four overstuffed evenings, a real tired kid on Fridays, and lots of free time on weekends. Well bully for the weekend, and we would always plan bigger homework projects for then, but didn't make sense for our family and it made school kind of miserable. *Some* teachers are amenable to giving assignments due Tuesday or Wednesday the previous Friday, most aren't. Seventh grade, amazingly, has involved much less homework. What gives? Is there no viable way to address such legitimate concerns with the School District or the School Committee? If it is clearly a serious problem across the board, is there no recourse? Again, I don't envy the descripiton of your situation. What!!?! - bring up something 'touchy' at our PTA that doesn't involve either fundraising or parent-run reading programs??!? How dare you!! Banty |
#44
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Ruth Baltopoulos wrote: I have heard of this homework nightmare from others in my town, but my teenagers must be attending a different school, because I have *never* seen the amount of homework lamented about smile, and if I had, I definitely would have addressed it with the Superintendent and Principals. Many, many parents have vocalized to me that they have no life in the evenings as they sit with their children while they do/help them with their homework boggle! Here is my strategy: I provide a place for homework to be done and access to computers. I ask if it has been completed (sometimes). I stay in touch with the school (PTO, Conferences, Open Houses, School Committee) and teachers are aware that I am interested in knowing of any challenges or foibles. The end. I can comfortably say that I have *never* done my children's schoolwork or projects (and in this town it is obvious who is doing the work at functions such as the Science Fair). I am *always* available to answer questions, brainstorm ideas, help clear up confusing assignments, or attempt to point them in the right direction. I refuse to make excuses for them to their teachers, or cover for them when they have not prioritized or managed their time correctly. Hey, I already went through school and did all my own homework; I am *so* not interested in another round This is my approach too. We only ever had one time that too-much homework was an issue: kindergarten!!! The amount of homework was mind-boggling. It would take up to two hours a night, and that's *with* parent's help. Many a night I'd be pulling my hair out, wishing DD would get through it already so I could give her younger sister some attention, not to mention, get dinner on the table. I was tempted to do it for her and be done with it so we could have an enjoyable evening. Also, since DD struggled so much with it, I felt it was doing more harm than good. Her enthusiasm for school was quickly slipping lower and lower. At the first round of parent-teacher conferences, I wasn't the only one to complain about this. Immediately after, the K teacher announced a new policy: she'd continue sending home the same amount of homework, that parents were NOT supposed to help, and the children need only sit down and work on the packet for 15 minutes - no longer. Whatever they accomplished in that time was fine. Parents initialed it after the end of 15 minutes. The goal was to instill good study habits, and that was it. Phew. What a difference that made! We've never had an issue since. Today the kids do have a lot of homework (the amount has grown as they've gone through the grades), but they usually get it all done at afterschool before playing. jen |
#46
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"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message ... Stephanie Stowe wrote: Which is all true and fine but has nothing to do with my objection, which is about a writing (or math or whatever) *focusing* on responsibility and work ethic "skills." It's not that they give assignments about teaching responsibility or work ethic. They just tend to believe it's a happy virtuous cycle where significant regular homework Makes Everything Better, including acquisition of skills. For instance, what do you do about the child who puts in more than enough time but doesn't achieve? Having graded homework at least gives that child some credit for effort. What is the purpose of the credit? To keep a kid whose trying hard from having poor grades? To provide some reward for effort to avoid discouragement? To keep the parents off the teacher's back? I suppose there could be lots of explanations. I am a very goal oriented person... to a fault. But conversations and assessments about education get of point a lot IMO. My thought is that the point of education is acquisition of skills and knowledge. Grades are intended to measure progress in the aqcuisition of said skills and knowledge. Oh, but they get used for so much more, willy nilly. Homework is supposed to be the exercise that reinforces the skill or knowledge. But far too often, the grade or the homework becomes the end in itself. Since the grade is important to future endeavors, like what college you will get into, it is very important. But what is it, in itself, but a measurement of the skill and/or knowledge for which the grade is received, no matter what it took to get there. I suspect that with this approach, you'll find school very frustrating ;-) Trust me, of this I have No Doubt Whatsoever! I have a lot of sympathy for your position, though I think that it works better in theory than in practice at the grade school level. What I am trying to say is that people get confused about what it is we are attempting to achieve, not the least some of the teachers I have spoke too. They get caught up in the barrage of legislation and regulation with which they have to comply and all the varying details of a stressful job and forget to keep their eye on the prize. True of some, but in many cases it's not that they're *forgetting*. They're very much keeping their eyes on the ball that the state and the school district (among others) have told them is more important. They don't haver to agree with that philosophy to understand that their job may depend on their implementing it. Again, lots of individual/school/district/ state variation. And parents forget Big Time too. They are so concerned with Bobby's grade, that they forget to be concerned with what Bobby's grade is *for* to give some kind of measure of where he is at with the skills. Sure, there are lots of parents who are only concerned that their little darling get the right grade. Lots more are concerned with what their child is actually learning, though (at least in my experience, which may not be representative). Every child has gifts and talents. Some kids, like I was in school, is never going to have to work for an A in math. But I still got A's. What is that A for? Or more to the point, what is that A supposed to be for? In kindergarten, first grade ... to something, you do not want to kill off interest in learning. You certainly never wan to cripple self esteem. But self esteem ultimately comes from acheivement, not A's. My A's in school were never much of a source of self esteem for me. Well, it's a lot easier not to get too full of yourself for getting A's than it is not to feel like a personal failure for getting F's ;-) So at some point, you stop getting letter grades for trying. Or at least, in my world view, you do. I am not sure what point that is. Sure. The schools in our area phase out effort grades gradually. My point is twofold. First, We, teachers, parents, society all lose site of the prize - well rounded, knowledgeble people who can take their place in the workforce, democracy and family with self assurance, critical thinking and ... all that. We get hyper focused on the wrong things. Not did little Genny learn how to complete the square, but did little Genny get a good enough grade? Well, but in a perfect world, is Genny's grade not supposed to be an indicator of how well she learned to complete the square? ;-) In that case, it ought to be a pretty good proxy. Alas, this is not a perfect world, especially when dealing with little kids. One could question whether grades are even necessary to this end. (Should I tell you exactly what I think of No Child Left Behind? Probably not.) Well, I doubt you can despise it as much as I do ;-) Best wishes, Ericka |
#47
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Ericka Kammerer wrote: That strategy works fabulously under normal circumstances. Under other situations, it doesn't work out quite so well. There are nights my 4th grader comes home with so much homework that if it happens on a day when we have to do *anything* after school other than eat dinner, he's up well past his bedtime to finish it. What hour does he get home? Trying to place this in context, to get an idea how much homework you're dealing with compared to what my kids are dealing with. Because my kids go to afterschool, they don't get home until 6:00. They do their homework at afterschool. For DD12, in 6th grade, she spends pretty much the entire time (2-1/2 hours) doing homework. DD10, in 5th, tends to spend about an hour, some days more; it varies but she's almost always done before I pick her up. DD12 might have more homework to do at home, and will do this while I'm making dinner. After dinner, she will often have me sit and quiz her for tests, but that takes only 20 minutes or so. DD10 rarely needs to do any more in the evenings, although on occasion there is a project requiring parental involvement (usually something internet- or computer-related), but this is maybe once a month, tops. Both then read for at least 30 minutes each night. Both will have homework on the weekends, and that amount varies. Once he's that tired, if one of us is not sitting with him to keep him focused, he falls asleep at his desk. DD10 is always exhausted by the time she gets home at 6. She gets very cranky, too. If for some reason she couldn't get her homework done at afterschool (there was a field trip, for example), then we're in big trouble, because like you're son, she is just too tired to focus. We've found it helps to forget the homework until the morning. I encourage an earlier bedtime, and have her set her alarm earlier than normal. Then when she is fresh, she gets up and jumps right in to her homework before school. Works well! She is most definetly a morning person. And heaven forbid you have a child with attention issues, for whom it tends to take longer for homework to get done in the first place and who might well require parental attention to keep focus. Luckily not dealing with this, but I can see how that would be a challenge. And then there are the children who are struggling with the material and require substantial help from the parent to *teach* the material in order for the child to be able to complete the homework. When my DD10 was struggling a few years ago because she had a reading delay, I requested that the teacher cut back her homework to a more reasonable amount for her. Nobody wanted her to get more and more discouraged. She was behind because of her reading delay, but after two years of reading help, she has fully caught up and can now easily handle the normal workload. And that's before we get to the stupid assignments designed to create more "parental involvement" that *require* the parent to participate--we have quite a few of those. The instructions actually *tell* the parent what the parent is supposed to be doing (so it's not the child just conning the parent into doing it). Yeah. We had a maddening amount of this in K and 1st, and then it tapered off gradually as they progressed through the grades. Nothing for DD12 like this anymore; only a little for DD10. There are far too many nights when I'm wrung out from attending to the needs of two kids' homework. I resent that there are so many fun and educational things we could do as a family, but our time to do so is severely limited by the amount of homework that is sent home. Yes. I agree with this too. Family time is important, and it's not always about doing homework. There have been times I've sent in a note excusing the kids from finishing their homework (most, but not all, would be done) because we felt it was a bigger priority to attend a fun and educational family event instead. Usually, I find a way to assign "homework" of my own to these events. For example, if we go to an art gallery, I'll have them write a few paragraphs about what the art meant to them, and I'll have them submit it along with their homework note. I've never had a teacher complain yet. But mostly, I tell the girls that if they can get it all done at afterschool, we don't have to make that choice in the evenings. The goal is to have evenings relatively clear of school work - so ALL of us can relax. I do not see how well over an hour of homework is appropriate in elementary school--add the homework to the amount of time they're in school, and many of these kids are putting in 50+ hour weeks! I don't ever remember having ANY homework until I hit junior high. The world has certainly changed. But, I have come to believe it's not such a bad thing. I am amazed that my kids can handle it, and amazed at how much they know at this age, compared to what I knew at that age!! So, if you have a school that is sending home reasonable amounts and types of homework, and is teaching the children the material before assigning homework on it, and your children don't have any extenuating circumstances that make homework more challenging than normal, I envy you. In that situation, I would happily stay the heck out of the way while my kids got their homework done, just as my parents did for me. Unfortunately, I believe that the situation here actively *UNDERMINES* children learning to be responsible for their own homework by making it virtually impossible for the children to take full responsibility for it. In that case, yes, I agree, it IS too much homework. There definetly needs to be a balance, because the goal is not to undermine the children from learning to take responsibility for it. In our district, parental involvement tapers off until 5th grade, and by 6th they are completely on their own. Some years we have teachers who don't buy into the homework overload madness, and those years are *so* much better for us as a family--and (surprise, surprise) the kids still manage to learn just as much or more in those classes as the ones with mountains of homework. Yes, I didn't do so bad despite no homework (although maybe my grammar would be better if I had more). :-) jen |
#48
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Banty wrote:
Tried that. Ran into an interesting problem. It's *MY SON* who is too contientious for that - he can't just up from homework undone and turn it in unfinished, even with a note from me. And I sure wasn't going to try to override what really is a fantastic inborn trait. (He's 12 - hope it stays that way...) Yeah, that too. I think many kids feel that way. The few times I've told my son that it was just too late and he needed to go to bed and I would explain to his teacher that he worked plenty hard for plenty of hours before stopping, he was *extremely* upset at the notion of not finishing his homework. Best wishes, Ericka |
#49
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Banty wrote:
The other problem was that Weekends Were Sacred. No homework on weekends, when our schedule was more relaxed and things like writing could be broken up and made more pleasant. It was all stacked onto Mon. - Thur. AND Scouts had to be some night Mon. - Thur. AND band rehersals and concerts had to be some night Mon. Thur. The after school program was iffy regarding homework time and environment, so we'd often have four overstuffed evenings, a real tired kid on Fridays, and lots of free time on weekends. Well bully for the weekend, and we would always plan bigger homework projects for then, but didn't make sense for our family and it made school kind of miserable. Yeah, this bugs me too. Why do they assume that Quality Family Time or Quality Recreational Activities only happen on the weekend? There are lots of activities--those you mention, among others--where the individual family has very little impact on scheduling, so it's not as if everyone *could* do their stuff on weekends if only they'd plan better. I would love to be able to use the weekend better to deal with those dreaded writing assignments. I've *finally* gotten DS1 to the point that he usually brings home his vocabulary workbook to do the Dreaded Section E (the one that requires more writing) over the weekend rather than waiting until it's assigned on Thursday night when he has his piano lesson. Best wishes, Ericka |
#50
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Ericka Kammerer wrote: Many districts do have homework policies. However, having them doesn't necessarily mean they will be observed or enforced. They do give you some leverage, though. Another tricky bit is that it's *very* difficult to estimate how long homework will take, and teachers/principals may have differing takes on whether the time limit applies to the fastest child, the slowest child, or the "average" child (whatever that might be ;-) I think even the most well-meaning teacher trying to adhere to the policy can have a lot of difficulty doing that with any accuracy. That's why I like our grade school's policy: the set a limit on how much time the child should spend each day on homework, depending on the age of the child. For K, for example, it was no more than 15 minutes. By 5th that increases to one hour. Whatever the child completes in that time, fine. The goal is not necessarily to finish it, but rather to instill good study habits and get in the routine. Parents initial the work - even if it's a blank page because the child sat there and daydreamed or whatever. How much the child finishes in that allotted time gives the teachers a good idea about whether the child is struggling and needs more help, may have attention issues, or needs additional challenges because the homework is too easy, etc. jen |
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