Crying it out

The whole point of the Ferber method is that Mom and
child endure the undoubted discomfort of learning a new way to get to
sleep -- on one's own. For many people this is not a decent reason to allow
your child to cry,

It's not so much that I don't think it's a decent reason to allow your child to
cry. (It's not something I would do, but I recognize that it's sensible in
some circumstances.) I just think that in many cases, doing this utterly fails
to cause the child to learn a new way to get to sleep on his own.

Instead, the child just doesn't sleep. And the parent doesn't either, assuming
the parent is still trying to respond in some way after X minutes of crying.
And this can go on night after night after night after night, indefinitely.
(Though I've never heard of anyone persisting longer than a week or two.)

I'm perfectly aware that my own ability to cope with sleep deprivation may be
greater than others', and that not everyone can co-sleep as comfortably as I
can. That's not the issue. It's just that people on whose babies Ferberizing,
or some version thereof, worked pretty well tend to make very generalized
statements like, "It's important to put your baby to bed still awake." Well,
no it's not. I never did that (at least, not after a few experiments convinced
me that it was pointless) and my baby did not have sleep problems. It's
important that the parent(s) find some method of ensuring that everyone in the
family gets the best possible sleep. In many cases, even when the parent
doesn't co-sleep comfortably, this means nursing or rocking the baby to sleep
and waiting until the baby is deeply asleep before putting him down.

Holly
Mom to Camden, 2.5 yrs

"HollyLewis" wrote in message
...

That's not the issue. It's just that people on whose babies Ferberizing,
or some version thereof, worked pretty well tend to make very generalized
statements like, "It's important to put your baby to bed still awake."
Well,
no it's not.

Yup, and I hate it when sites such as BabyCenter and magazines such as
_Parents_ present this as an unassailable truth.

--
Belphoebe

Amen Holly



--
Michelle P
Ava Marie July 14, 2002
"HollyLewis" wrote in message
...
There is no reason that pleasant rocking cannot be part of
the routine, as long as baby goes into bed somewhat awake.

Bwahahahahahaha.

I take it you never had a child who, if put into bed still awake, would
only
become progressively MORE awake and MORE upset.

I can't help the OP much, since co-sleeping works well for us and DS never
developed a habit of waking frequently at night; I nursed him back to
sleep
when he did wake until he just naturally began to go back to sleep
without.
(In fact, one night not too long ago, he did ask and I -- really, really
tired
at the time -- told him "the mama milk is sleeping." Much to my surprise,
he
turned over and went to sleep without protest.) I'm just awfully tired of
hearing Ferber prononents claim that ALL babies can or should learn to go
to
sleep by themselves, having been put to bed "drowsy but awake." That
simply
DOES NOT WORK for some babies.

Holly
Mom to Camden, 2.5 yrs

"HollyLewis" wrote in message
...
The whole point of the Ferber method is that Mom and
child endure the undoubted discomfort of learning a new way to get to
sleep -- on one's own. For many people this is not a decent reason to
allow
your child to cry,

It's not so much that I don't think it's a decent reason to allow your
child to
cry. (It's not something I would do, but I recognize that it's sensible
in
some circumstances.) I just think that in many cases, doing this utterly
fails
to cause the child to learn a new way to get to sleep on his own.

Instead, the child just doesn't sleep. And the parent doesn't either,
assuming
the parent is still trying to respond in some way after X minutes of
crying.
And this can go on night after night after night after night,
indefinitely.
(Though I've never heard of anyone persisting longer than a week or two.)

I'm perfectly aware that my own ability to cope with sleep deprivation may
be
greater than others', and that not everyone can co-sleep as comfortably as
I
can. That's not the issue. It's just that people on whose babies
Ferberizing,
or some version thereof, worked pretty well tend to make very generalized
statements like, "It's important to put your baby to bed still awake."
Well,
no it's not. I never did that (at least, not after a few experiments
convinced
me that it was pointless) and my baby did not have sleep problems. It's
important that the parent(s) find some method of ensuring that everyone in
the
family gets the best possible sleep. In many cases, even when the parent
doesn't co-sleep comfortably, this means nursing or rocking the baby to
sleep
and waiting until the baby is deeply asleep before putting him down.

Holly
Mom to Camden, 2.5 yrs

I have lots of personal objections to Ferber, in terms of doing it with my
own baby. However they are not relevant right here.

I think what is relevant is that what I really resent about the whole cry it
out thing is not that it worked for some other people (hey if it works for
you then good luck and go for your life!) but that *very often* it is
presented (not by the pro-Ferber Mums in this thread but in 'real life') as
the *only* way to get your baby to sleep and also it's strongly suggested
that if you don't do it then you are a permissive parent/making a rod for
your own back/yadda yadda yadda.

I mean, I knew, for us, that Ferber or any cry-it-out was not for us. My
instincts to let Kiera stop night feeding in her own time and to co-sleep
etc was the right decision for us. However I did worry, simply because of
health professionals, family etc, all suggesting that my child would NEVER
go to sleep alone and NEVER stop breastfeeding.

So to all the Mums out there who are doing AP or some version I would like
to offer some encouragement.

It took 20 months for my daughter to sleep through for the first time, and I
mean from 10pm to 6am, hardly 12 hours! But as soon as I knew she had done
it I knew it was time. We went to Ikea and bought a bed (I didn't feed her
on the displays but I damn well would have done no problem). She picked out
a tweenies duvet cover. We went home and set up her new bed in her new room,
where she had never slept.

I figured we'd spend a few days getting used to the bed, reading on it,
playing on it and then I would gently suggest sleeping in it. Nope.

Right after she helped me build the bed (!) she said 'can I sleep in here
tonight Mummy?'. She's never slept in our bed since. I continued to nurse
her to sleep but very quickly, she started not dropping off during the
nursing, but going to sleep awake. I did the 'kiss and return' technique,
and eventually, very, very, very easily was able to feed her briefly, kiss
her goodnight, and leave the room. At 2 years and 8 months she gave up BF,
she's now 3.

She's been sleeping through from 8 till 6 for over a year now. Bedtime here
is a relaxed and joyous affair, no bedtime tantrums, not even one. She's
happy to go to bed. I really feel that how we handled it when she was tiny
has meant that for her bed and sleep are wondrous, marvellous, comforting
places, and that has helped us enormously.

Nikki

"HollyLewis" wrote in message
...
The whole point of the Ferber method is that Mom and
child endure the undoubted discomfort of learning a new way to get to
sleep -- on one's own. For many people this is not a decent reason to
allow
your child to cry,

It's not so much that I don't think it's a decent reason to allow your
child to
cry. (It's not something I would do, but I recognize that it's sensible
in
some circumstances.) I just think that in many cases, doing this utterly
fails
to cause the child to learn a new way to get to sleep on his own.


I have no experience with this, so I have to take your word.

Instead, the child just doesn't sleep. And the parent doesn't either,
assuming
the parent is still trying to respond in some way after X minutes of
crying.
And this can go on night after night after night after night,
indefinitely.
(Though I've never heard of anyone persisting longer than a week or two.)

I'm perfectly aware that my own ability to cope with sleep deprivation may
be
greater than others', and that not everyone can co-sleep as comfortably as
I
can. That's not the issue. It's just that people on whose babies
Ferberizing,
or some version thereof, worked pretty well tend to make very generalized
statements like, "It's important to put your baby to bed still awake."

I have no experience with this either. I have friends and family with butt
out mindsets. So I have never had a conversation with someone who used the
Ferber method with success lecture at me. And the idea would be pointless
since it worked with our son. There is one important point that the folks
you are talking with miss ... IF you want your child to be able to put
themselves to sleep, you have to put them to bed awake. Perhaps there are
just 2 different assumption starting points in the discussion.

Well,
no it's not. I never did that (at least, not after a few experiments
convinced
me that it was pointless) and my baby did not have sleep problems. It's
important that the parent(s) find some method of ensuring that everyone in
the
family gets the best possible sleep. In many cases, even when the parent
doesn't co-sleep comfortably, this means nursing or rocking the baby to
sleep
and waiting until the baby is deeply asleep before putting him down.



Yup. No doubt. That is why Ferber's book is called Solving Your Child's
Sleep PROBLEM. If you haven't got a problem, good for you. No solution
necessary. I DEFINITELY agree that parents must examine their situation and
make the best decisions for their family. And, though I agree with you that
some folks feel the way that worked for them is the only way, I do not feel
that way at, personally. This is the same force at work that convinces
bottle feeding Moms to argue with breastfeeding ones (and vice versa).

For the most part, I think you and I agree.

Holly
Mom to Camden, 2.5 yrs

wrote in message
...

"HollyLewis" wrote in message
...
The whole point of the Ferber method is that Mom and
child endure the undoubted discomfort of learning a new way to get to
sleep -- on one's own. For many people this is not a decent reason to
allow
your child to cry,

It's not so much that I don't think it's a decent reason to allow your
child to
cry. (It's not something I would do, but I recognize that it's sensible
in
some circumstances.) I just think that in many cases, doing this
utterly
fails
to cause the child to learn a new way to get to sleep on his own.

Instead, the child just doesn't sleep. And the parent doesn't either,
assuming
the parent is still trying to respond in some way after X minutes of
crying.
And this can go on night after night after night after night,
indefinitely.
(Though I've never heard of anyone persisting longer than a week or
two.)

I'm perfectly aware that my own ability to cope with sleep deprivation
may
be
greater than others', and that not everyone can co-sleep as comfortably
as
I
can. That's not the issue. It's just that people on whose babies
Ferberizing,
or some version thereof, worked pretty well tend to make very
generalized
statements like, "It's important to put your baby to bed still awake."
Well,
no it's not. I never did that (at least, not after a few experiments
convinced
me that it was pointless) and my baby did not have sleep problems. It's
important that the parent(s) find some method of ensuring that everyone
in
the
family gets the best possible sleep. In many cases, even when the
parent
doesn't co-sleep comfortably, this means nursing or rocking the baby to
sleep
and waiting until the baby is deeply asleep before putting him down.

Holly
Mom to Camden, 2.5 yrs

I have lots of personal objections to Ferber, in terms of doing it with my
own baby. However they are not relevant right here.

I think what is relevant is that what I really resent about the whole cry
it
out thing is not that it worked for some other people (hey if it works for
you then good luck and go for your life!) but that *very often* it is
presented (not by the pro-Ferber Mums in this thread but in 'real life')
as
the *only* way to get your baby to sleep and also it's strongly suggested
that if you don't do it then you are a permissive parent/making a rod for
your own back/yadda yadda yadda.


I suspect that this is true. My ped, whom I like and respect very much, does
not think that co-sleeping is a very good idea. Not because he thinks it is
dangerous or anything, but because it is not consistent with the norms of
our society. He does not get on his horse about this; I asked. I think he
told me his real thoughts because they were not inconsistent with the advice
I was seeking. If co-sleeping Mom and he were talking, I think he would
have kept his yap shut. That is why I like him.

In any event, what one thinks sometimes comes out of one's mouth. And some
people truly do think that there way is the only way. But folks have feared
the new and unconventional for all of time, even when the new and
unconventional is really the old norm. Ya know?

I mean, I knew, for us, that Ferber or any cry-it-out was not for us. My
instincts to let Kiera stop night feeding in her own time and to co-sleep
etc was the right decision for us. However I did worry, simply because of
health professionals, family etc, all suggesting that my child would NEVER
go to sleep alone and NEVER stop breastfeeding.



Well good for you for doing what you think is right! The folks you were
talking to were dopes. The idea that a 15 yold would be breastfeeding and
sleeping with their mum is just stupid.

So to all the Mums out there who are doing AP or some version I would like
to offer some encouragement.

It took 20 months for my daughter to sleep through for the first time, and
I
mean from 10pm to 6am, hardly 12 hours! But as soon as I knew she had done
it I knew it was time. We went to Ikea and bought a bed (I didn't feed her
on the displays but I damn well would have done no problem). She picked
out
a tweenies duvet cover. We went home and set up her new bed in her new
room,
where she had never slept.

I figured we'd spend a few days getting used to the bed, reading on it,
playing on it and then I would gently suggest sleeping in it. Nope.

Right after she helped me build the bed (!) she said 'can I sleep in here
tonight Mummy?'. She's never slept in our bed since. I continued to nurse
her to sleep but very quickly, she started not dropping off during the
nursing, but going to sleep awake. I did the 'kiss and return' technique,
and eventually, very, very, very easily was able to feed her briefly, kiss
her goodnight, and leave the room. At 2 years and 8 months she gave up BF,
she's now 3.

She's been sleeping through from 8 till 6 for over a year now. Bedtime
here
is a relaxed and joyous affair, no bedtime tantrums, not even one. She's
happy to go to bed. I really feel that how we handled it when she was tiny
has meant that for her bed and sleep are wondrous, marvellous, comforting
places, and that has helped us enormously.

Nikki

HollyLewis wrote:

Instead, the child just doesn't sleep. And the parent doesn't either,
assuming
the parent is still trying to respond in some way after X minutes of crying.
And this can go on night after night after night after night, indefinitely.
(Though I've never heard of anyone persisting longer than a week or two.)

I have. Try months. Poor baby.

--
Sara, accompanied by the baby barnacle

I go back in forth on what I think is the right thing to do. I think
I'm reading about all the different schools of thought and trying it
all and confusing me and the baby. Last night we let our baby cry it
out and it was heart breaking...but it worked. It is so heart breaking
to listen to him wail like that but if it is for the better of both
baby and mom, I can do it for a short time. He cried 3 times. First
time he cried for 15 minutes, quiet for 3 minutes. Second time, he
cried for 10 minutes and quiet for about 5 minutes. Then the third
time, he cried for 10 minutes and fell asleep for two hours to only
wake for his next feeding. Because it worked, I am trying it today
with nap time and it's been hard. Any experience or advice on this?
Our baby is 3 months old but only 7 weeks corrected age as he was a
premature infant. We were told he was too young to let him really cry
it out. I am not sure if that holds try now. Is he too young to cry
it out when he goes down for each nap and at night time? If we do
have him cry it out, how long is acceptable?

Thanks. Connie




(HollyLewis) wrote in message ...
The whole point of the Ferber method is that Mom and
child endure the undoubted discomfort of learning a new way to get to
sleep -- on one's own. For many people this is not a decent reason to allow
your child to cry,

It's not so much that I don't think it's a decent reason to allow your child to
cry. (It's not something I would do, but I recognize that it's sensible in
some circumstances.) I just think that in many cases, doing this utterly fails
to cause the child to learn a new way to get to sleep on his own.

Instead, the child just doesn't sleep. And the parent doesn't either, assuming
the parent is still trying to respond in some way after X minutes of crying.
And this can go on night after night after night after night, indefinitely.
(Though I've never heard of anyone persisting longer than a week or two.)

I'm perfectly aware that my own ability to cope with sleep deprivation may be
greater than others', and that not everyone can co-sleep as comfortably as I
can. That's not the issue. It's just that people on whose babies Ferberizing,
or some version thereof, worked pretty well tend to make very generalized
statements like, "It's important to put your baby to bed still awake." Well,
no it's not. I never did that (at least, not after a few experiments convinced
me that it was pointless) and my baby did not have sleep problems. It's
important that the parent(s) find some method of ensuring that everyone in the
family gets the best possible sleep. In many cases, even when the parent
doesn't co-sleep comfortably, this means nursing or rocking the baby to sleep
and waiting until the baby is deeply asleep before putting him down.

Holly
Mom to Camden, 2.5 yrs

wrote
I have lots of personal objections to Ferber, in terms of doing it with my
own baby. However they are not relevant right here.

I think what is relevant is that what I really resent about the whole cry
it
out thing is not that it worked for some other people (hey if it works for
you then good luck and go for your life!) but that *very often* it is
presented (not by the pro-Ferber Mums in this thread but in 'real life')
as
the *only* way to get your baby to sleep and also it's strongly suggested
that if you don't do it then you are a permissive parent/making a rod for
your own back/yadda yadda yadda.

I mean, I knew, for us, that Ferber or any cry-it-out was not for us. My
instincts to let Kiera stop night feeding in her own time and to co-sleep
etc was the right decision for us. However I did worry, simply because of
health professionals, family etc, all suggesting that my child would NEVER
go to sleep alone and NEVER stop breastfeeding.

Even though it worked for me (I think, so far), I'm with you completely in
that one must know one's child. In fact, that's why we tried Ferber since
Sears clearly wasn't working (he seemed to suggest that if I kept rocking
her every time she woke up it would end on its own, which is fine except
that I would be completely nuts at that point) and nor was The No Cry Sleep
Solution. It never ceases to amaze me that anyone would suggest that a
single solution would be appropriate for all babies since they're all so
different.
--
Melissa (in Los Angeles)
Mum to Elizabeth 4/13/03

"Michelle Podnar" wrote
I respect your decision Melissa, but just because you choose to Feber, it
doesn't mean that AP isn't any less effect a parenting style. My DD is 16
months old, and co-sleeps (that is where we all sleep best). Up until 6
mos, she slept the majority of the night (6-7 hour stretch), but after
that
she began waking up for feeding 1-2x a night, which she still does. I
don't
believe that I should make her cry it out.

I agree with you that AP is an effective parenting technique and would use
it exclusively except that we had a real problem that AP wasn't solving. DD
wasn't waking 1.5-2 times per night, she was waking every 1-1.5 hours and
would take about 20 minutes to rock to sleep. IOW, I was getting nearly no
sleep and what I was getting was in 40 minute chunks (assuming I fell asleep
immediately after she did). I tried all of the AP methods before I went to
this. I'm sure that Ferber isn't the 'right' solution for everyone,
particularly those who don't have a sleep problem. We had a problem and this
seems to be a working solution.

However, I'm still not sure how to deal with feedings in the night.
--
Melissa (in Los Angeles)
Mum to Elizabeth 4/13/03