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  #21  
Old April 16th 05, 06:51 PM
Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang
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"Robyn Kozierok" wrote in message
news:MP88e.756
Animzmirot apparently lives in an area where coolness is quite tightly
defined. She has raised similar issues in the past with respect to
climber pants and car booster seats.


This subthread raises a question that I think about often.

It seems that parents try to use peer pressure to their advantage with
their kids when they are young, to get them to potty train, try new
foods, etc.

Then they expect these same kids to resist peer pressure when they are
teens and are being pressured into dangerous or illegal activities,
such as drugs, alcohol, smoking, dangerous driving, shoplifting, etc.


Interesting point.

The main difference is that in the former, we're not using peer pressure to
have our children try something dangerous or illegal. Also, although these
activities get the most press, most kids do NOT participate in risky
behaviors. The majority of adolescents avoid most risky behaviors - the one
major exception seems to be alcohol use (CDC website and type "adolescent
risk behavior". Whereas, like the book says, everyone poops.

And I wonder where the elementary years fit into all this. While I
wouldn't want to force my kids to wear "dorky" clothes or shoes, there
is a question as to how parents should best treat the clothing/shoe/hair
"coolness" issues in these years, to avoid giving kids the message that
"fitting in" is the be all and end all of having an acceptable social
life. It seems to me that there may be some benefit from kids
practicing saying "no" to trends in their elementary years, to prepare
them for needing to say "no" to dangerous choices in their teen years.


Hmmm...we encourage DD to draw on herself to decide on things like clothes,
shoes or hair. From age 3 to 5, she only wore skirts and tights even in the
hot summer heat. Then at 5, she went to pony camp, so she had to wear
pants. After camp it was back to skirts and dresses until the next summer's
horse camp. Now at 7, she's wearing pants more often. While I used to
"strongly recommend" that DD wear pants so she wouldn't be the odd one out
in school, she resisted and I came to realize that if that's what she wants
and she's dealing with the kids in school then should I care? Obviously, I
came to realize that her opinion was more important than what I thought.

We tried to find a school with a supportive social environment. We chose a
Montessori school as a preschool (went up to 8th grade) where the kids were
very supportive of each other in spite of any differences among them. The
students and teachers were of all races and combinations thereof; there was
a mix of socio-economic groups. And the children were encouraged to follow
their own interests rather than just follow others mindlessly.

Now this doesn't mean there are no trends in that school. Two years ago,
*everyone* in the lower and upper elementary classes wanted to read the
Redwall series. There always seems to be a preponderance of purple and pink
among the primary girls' clothes. But children who are different aren't
mocked or excluded. When one boy who is a severe stutterer played a role in
his class play, we all waited patiently for his lines even though they were
taking a while longer than the other speeches (from what I could see, he
wasn't given any breaks in his role). And afterwards, the students
congratulated him as well as the other play cast members.

I did worry a bit about how DD would fit in at the local public school this
year. But she seems to have adjusted well and hasn't been excluded (I
think) because of her clothes/hair/shoes. Again, if she is able to thrive
with her own sense of self, then I'm to encourage, not discourage it.

Where should a parent draw the line between helping their kids fit
in, versus teaching their kids that being one of the crowd isn't
always the right thing to do. Clearly the main line is the appearance
versus safety line, but I wonder if kids really "get" that message.


I think they do.

If you repeatedly buy your kids clothes based on what they perceive
to be "cool", do you explicitly discuss with your kids why it's ok
to do what's cool in this case but not other? It seems to me that a
lot of kids are getting the implicit message in their childhood years
that it's important to do what everyone else is doing, and then not
making good distinctions for themselves when they get to a point
where they need to sometimes decide to go against what's cool for
safety reasons.


I think it depends on your own behavior more than any speech or lessons. If
you tend to follow your own instincts and not follow every trend or fashion
then chances are your children will likely do so as well. But if parent is
making sure that s/he has the coolest car/outfit/gadget then that's the
lesson the child will pick up.

Recently, we got the "but so-so gets to do whatever in her house..."
argument. If we say, "okay, that's nice for so-so. Our family is different
and our house rules are different." DD knows that we listen but in the end,
we need to decide what's best for us. If we say, "okay, that's what we'll
do as well." then DD knows that we take our cues from others.


  #22  
Old April 16th 05, 07:31 PM
Robyn Kozierok
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In article ,
Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang wrote:

"Robyn Kozierok" wrote in message
news:MP88e.756
It seems that parents try to use peer pressure to their advantage with
their kids when they are young, to get them to potty train, try new
foods, etc.

Then they expect these same kids to resist peer pressure when they are
teens and are being pressured into dangerous or illegal activities,
such as drugs, alcohol, smoking, dangerous driving, shoplifting, etc.


Interesting point.

The main difference is that in the former, we're not using peer pressure to
have our children try something dangerous or illegal.


Well, *we* know that, but when we encouarge our young children to do
safe and wonderful things "because everyone else does" rather than for
some more appropriate reason, we may be sending a message that
"everyone else does" is, by itself, a good reason to do something

Also, although these
activities get the most press, most kids do NOT participate in risky
behaviors. The majority of adolescents avoid most risky behaviors - the one
major exception seems to be alcohol use (CDC website and type "adolescent
risk behavior".


Fair enough, but I think every adolescent encounters some pressure to try
some risky behavior at some point. Also, there can be peer pressure to
engage in other less-risky but still unacceptable behavior, like
joining in on teasing another child, underachieving in school because
being "smart" isn't "cool, skipping classes, cheating on tests, etc.

So, I do think it is important to establish early on that "everyone else
does" is not really a good reason to do something.

I think it depends on your own behavior more than any speech or lessons. If
you tend to follow your own instincts and not follow every trend or fashion
then chances are your children will likely do so as well. But if parent is
making sure that s/he has the coolest car/outfit/gadget then that's the
lesson the child will pick up.

Recently, we got the "but so-so gets to do whatever in her house..."
argument. If we say, "okay, that's nice for so-so. Our family is different
and our house rules are different." DD knows that we listen but in the end,
we need to decide what's best for us. If we say, "okay, that's what we'll
do as well." then DD knows that we take our cues from others.


These are certainly good points. We do model individual
choices/responsibility in these ways as well.

We tried to find a school with a supportive social environment. We chose a
Montessori school as a preschool (went up to 8th grade) where the kids were
very supportive of each other in spite of any differences among them. The
students and teachers were of all races and combinations thereof; there was
a mix of socio-economic groups. And the children were encouraged to follow
their own interests rather than just follow others mindlessly.


snip

I did worry a bit about how DD would fit in at the local public school this
year. But she seems to have adjusted well and hasn't been excluded (I
think) because of her clothes/hair/shoes. Again, if she is able to thrive
with her own sense of self, then I'm to encourage, not discourage it.


My kids are also currently in a school with an especially supportive social
environment, and I think that the freedom from an obsession with "coolness"
at this age provides a very healthy foundation for dealing with such
pressures in the future, so I'm grateful that they have this opportunity.
I'm hoping it will make them more likely to retain a confidence in their
own choices, in both the small issues and, ultimately, the big ones.

I think a bigger issues does arise for parents of kids in places where
kids *are* routinely ostracized for having the "wrong" shoes or clothes.
I do sometimes worry that my kids may have more problems of this type
when they graduate from their current school into the local public school.
I am hopeful that their current school experience will help them to more
confidently navigate such an environment and not just make them more
different / less aware of the social "rules" in a typical school setting /
more likely to be ostracized. It is very encouraging to hear that your
daughter is now thriving in public school while maintaining her own sense
of self. Hopefully, that, along with your continued good example, will
stand her in good stead for the preteen/teen years to come.

Thanks for bouncing around these issues with me.

--Robyn

  #23  
Old April 17th 05, 02:44 AM
..
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"Robyn Kozierok" wrote in message
...

Fair enough, but I think every adolescent encounters some pressure to try
some risky behavior at some point. Also, there can be peer pressure to
engage in other less-risky but still unacceptable behavior, like
joining in on teasing another child, underachieving in school because
being "smart" isn't "cool, skipping classes, cheating on tests, etc.

So, I do think it is important to establish early on that "everyone else
does" is not really a good reason to do something.


I agree that "everyone else does" is not a good reason to do or want
something. We try very hard to not teach this lesson. But we've also
discovered in DD's case, it also doesn't really work - asking her to try a
new food because "Mom and Dad like it" often results in a response like
"Well, everyone's different! Not everyone likes the same food." So, I guess
I should be glad she's able to say this to us, huh?

I think a bigger issues does arise for parents of kids in places where
kids *are* routinely ostracized for having the "wrong" shoes or clothes.
I do sometimes worry that my kids may have more problems of this type
when they graduate from their current school into the local public school.


Yep. I had the exact same fears. I still do. The public school kids are a
lot more conforming and there is a certain expectation on how one *should*
dress. I think, like you, DD's earlier school experience gives her an extra
boost of self-awareness and self-assurance to resist actions she doesn't
feel comfortable doing or she realizes is dangerous to her.

However, I expect she will make mistakes and do things she shouldn't, such
as lying and showing disrespect, even cheating, but these are "normal" bad
behavior. They are wrong but she won't contract a disease or come to
serious harm directly through these actions (I hope).

I am hopeful that their current school experience will help them to more
confidently navigate such an environment and not just make them more
different / less aware of the social "rules" in a typical school setting /
more likely to be ostracized. It is very encouraging to hear that your
daughter is now thriving in public school while maintaining her own sense
of self.


Like I said above, I worry just like you about the new school environment.
If I find her losing self-confidence or being ostracized, DH and I will pay
out the money and put her back into private school with a more supportive
environment.

Hopefully, that, along with your continued good example, will
stand her in good stead for the preteen/teen years to come.

Actually it's the other way around - she's showing me a good example - I'm
constantly amazed by her ability to think for herself and stand firmly by
her decisions. As for DH and me, it's not so much showing her a good
example as being a bit out of step with the rest of society. E.g, we *know*
everyone buys Honda Odysessy or Toyota Sienna or Chrysler minivans
(preferrably tan or navy), but we somehow decided to buy the Nissan Quest
(thereby, able to pick our minivan out of a crowded parking lot in front of
Whole Foods Market). At least we didn't get the orange one.

Jeanne



  #24  
Old April 17th 05, 06:17 PM
Penny Gaines
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[snip]

I think a bigger issues does arise for parents of kids in places where
kids are routinely ostracized for having the "wrong" shoes or clothes.
I do sometimes worry that my kids may have more problems of this type
when they graduate from their current school into the local public
school.


Yep. I had the exact same fears.**I*still*do.**The*public*school*kids*are
a lot more conforming and there is a certain expectation on how one should
dress.**I*think,*like*you,*DD's*earlier*school*exp erience*gives*her*an
extra boost of self-awareness and self-assurance to resist actions she
doesn't feel comfortable doing or she realizes is dangerous to her.

[snip]

Over here every school in our area has a school uniform, and IME as a
teenager, this does help with the coolness/conformity issue.

Although all the children are dressed alike, they know it is imposed
by an authority, and it gives them a chance to choose their own
clothes at home without worrying about what their peers think.

For instance, as a young teenager, I was completely uninterested in fashion.
I wore whatever I had at home, without fear of my trendy classmates
teasing me, and at school I wore the uniform exactly as it was "because
my mum makes me". By the time I no longer had to wear the uniform, when
I was about 16yo, I was more aware of fashion, and also more able to
resist the pressure to conform.

The other thing that I do with my kids on topics like smoking is to
discuss reasons why it is bad and also reasons people like to do it.
That way, when someone tries to persuade them to do it "because it is
grown up" or whatever, they have already thought of a reason to
resist. Obviously, they are too young still to know whether it has
worked, but we are trying to get them to think independantly.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

  #25  
Old April 18th 05, 11:10 PM
Robyn Kozierok
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In article , .. wrote:

Like I said above, I worry just like you about the new school environment.
If I find her losing self-confidence or being ostracized, DH and I will pay
out the money and put her back into private school with a more supportive
environment.


Eventually they will have to be able to get along in a less-controlled
environment, it's a question of when. My kids' school goes through
8th, and at the moment I plan to keep them there that long (at least as
much for academic fit as for the social advantages it offers). So,
they will hit the "real world" at high school. Parents in our school
routinely worry about how the kids will fare in HS. On the one hand,
they get many years to develop their own confidence and style. On the
other hand, it seems that they would enter highschool as "clueless
newbies" wrt the traditional school social rules/norms. Kids from our
school have a great track record of finding their place and thriving in
high school. But that doesn't stop each new crop of parents from
worrying

--Robyn

 




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