On the subject of excruciatingly difficult kids whom we love

Well, call me lazy, but I've only read some of the thread.

Joelle, I think you're making sense.

Bebe, I know you know, but Joelle's not on your ass, okay? She's not
really even talking to or about you. Your experiences are totally in
the picture, they count, and they've got something to offer, but you
need to lose the defensiveness. Joelle can get up your neck, but she's
not malicious. She's sincere and she does make sense.

Joelle, you're not the only one, I guarantee you. Quite a few of us
have been through agonising depression and medication and grief and
bereavement and pain with our kids. It's a bit minimising of that to
have you say you're the only one, IMO. Still, you make a ton of sense,
as you often do.

Sly, here's the thing:

You're gonna get tons of advice. You're gonna get even more judgement.
Everyone figures they know, and some of them do, but none of them do.
Bottom line: you've got to go with your gut. And even, subterranean,
bottom line: you've got to stay with it, thick or thin, no matter
what. Because the staying with it, however imperfectly, and however
hard, is the thing. It's what matters in the end.

Mine kicked in the door one time, after we agreed, in a rational
moment, that when she lost the plot I should lock her into her
bedroom. Another time, I nailed the window shut. Had to borrow a
ladder to do it. Can't tell you how many times I had her in holds - to
keep her from the razor blades, to keep her from the window - to keep
her from who she thought she was. Ever heard the P!NK song, 'I'm a
Hazard to Myself'? That was her theme song. Had her in holds on the
floor long past where any professional (which I am) would've tried a
one person hold. Called the cops one time when she lasted longer than
I did. Sat on the floor of her friend's house and refused to leave for
five hours one time, when she ran and I wouldn't give up. Spent
countless hours in hospital...spent one nasty night in the ICU waiting
to see if the intentional overdose would be a win or lose. Left home
to get her care. Yada, yada, yada.....

She's good now. Not totally healed, but good. Aware. Clear on whose
life it is, and who's in charge of it. Clear on who will make it or
break it. And when she decides to talk about it, which isn't often,
there's this one refrain....

'You stayed with me. You stuck it out.' I've said, "You'll never get
rid of me. You think that stunt will run me off? Dream on. I'm a
limpet. You're never gonna run me off. I'm your mother and you can't
run off your mother. We're like crazy glue. We're like a bad penny. No
matter what you do, I'm gonna be around. So quit trying." And she
heard me..through all of it, she heard me. She knew I was there.

If I could give you anything, it would be heart and strength and
courage and everything else you need, just to hang on to the precipice
when it feels like you're going over, because that's what they need,
and that's ultimately what we can give.

And eventually, they know what you did. They really do. They know you
hung in there, they know you gave a crap, they know you were alive
with them, and that's what they needed, to find their own lives. It's
excruciatingly, agonizingly, desperately hard. But it's worth it, it's
possible, and it's what you can do. So hang in there. Platitude number
six is available to your right. (platitude #6 says: take care of
yourself, find time for yourself, don't beat yourself up, yada yada
yada, like you have control, right?) But hard as it is, know it's
worth it, and know you can.

Joelle has.

I have.

Bebe has.

Others have.

You can.

Be well.

Cele

Subject: On the subject of excruciatingly difficult kids whom we love
From: Cele
Date: 9/17/2004 5:05 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Well, call me lazy, but I've only read some of the thread.

Joelle, I think you're making sense.

Bebe, I know you know, but Joelle's not on your ass, okay? She's not
really even talking to or about you. Your experiences are totally in
the picture, they count, and they've got something to offer, but you
need to lose the defensiveness. Joelle can get up your neck, but she's
not malicious. She's sincere and she does make sense.

Joelle, you're not the only one, I guarantee you. Quite a few of us
have been through agonising depression and medication and grief and
bereavement and pain with our kids. It's a bit minimising of that to
have you say you're the only one, IMO. Still, you make a ton of sense,
as you often do.

Sly, here's the thing:

You're gonna get tons of advice. You're gonna get even more judgement.
Everyone figures they know, and some of them do, but none of them do.
Bottom line: you've got to go with your gut. And even, subterranean,
bottom line: you've got to stay with it, thick or thin, no matter
what. Because the staying with it, however imperfectly, and however
hard, is the thing. It's what matters in the end.

Mine kicked in the door one time, after we agreed, in a rational
moment, that when she lost the plot I should lock her into her
bedroom. Another time, I nailed the window shut. Had to borrow a
ladder to do it. Can't tell you how many times I had her in holds - to
keep her from the razor blades, to keep her from the window - to keep
her from who she thought she was. Ever heard the P!NK song, 'I'm a
Hazard to Myself'? That was her theme song. Had her in holds on the
floor long past where any professional (which I am) would've tried a
one person hold. Called the cops one time when she lasted longer than
I did. Sat on the floor of her friend's house and refused to leave for
five hours one time, when she ran and I wouldn't give up. Spent
countless hours in hospital...spent one nasty night in the ICU waiting
to see if the intentional overdose would be a win or lose. Left home
to get her care. Yada, yada, yada.....

She's good now. Not totally healed, but good. Aware. Clear on whose
life it is, and who's in charge of it. Clear on who will make it or
break it. And when she decides to talk about it, which isn't often,
there's this one refrain....

'You stayed with me. You stuck it out.' I've said, "You'll never get
rid of me. You think that stunt will run me off? Dream on. I'm a
limpet. You're never gonna run me off. I'm your mother and you can't
run off your mother. We're like crazy glue. We're like a bad penny. No
matter what you do, I'm gonna be around. So quit trying." And she
heard me..through all of it, she heard me. She knew I was there.

If I could give you anything, it would be heart and strength and
courage and everything else you need, just to hang on to the precipice
when it feels like you're going over, because that's what they need,
and that's ultimately what we can give.

And eventually, they know what you did. They really do. They know you
hung in there, they know you gave a crap, they know you were alive
with them, and that's what they needed, to find their own lives. It's
excruciatingly, agonizingly, desperately hard. But it's worth it, it's
possible, and it's what you can do. So hang in there. Platitude number
six is available to your right. (platitude #6 says: take care of
yourself, find time for yourself, don't beat yourself up, yada yada
yada, like you have control, right?) But hard as it is, know it's
worth it, and know you can.

Joelle has.

I have.

Bebe has.

Others have.

You can.

Be well.

Cele

Cele, You most definately do Know , I 'am' defensive with Joelle, I can only
try to understand her style, in my world she is hard to take, I know it does
not make her all wrong . Your advice to Sly is amazing, I consider this true
compassionate input, I just know there is a nicer way to point out the
possibility the boy may have a problem with the sig. other....and now that Sly
gave us the history there is just not much of a chance that there is any
problem
"there". I still feel Joelle belittled slys ability to know that, and how she
dismisses the unmarried couples sharing in a family, and in parenting in said
families. Thats the bottom line on that.
Bev

On 17 Sep 2004 09:19:02 GMT,
(Bebelestrnge0721) wrote:


Cele, You most definately do Know , I 'am' defensive with Joelle, I can only
try to understand her style, in my world she is hard to take, I know it does
not make her all wrong .

OK. Joelle actually has a helluva lot to offer. I just wish people
were a little gentler all 'round. But that'd be *my* problem. ;-)

Your advice to Sly is amazing, I consider this true
compassionate input, I just know there is a nicer way to point out the
possibility the boy may have a problem with the sig. other....

Well, y'know, it might just be that the way I communicate works better
for some, and the way Joelle communicates works better for others with
another style, and so on and so forth.....

and now that Sly
gave us the history there is just not much of a chance that there is any
problem
"there".

Oh, hell, who knows? I don't suppose any of us can tell over a few
posts on usenet. All anyone can do is toss out their thoughts and
experiences. Some of those will ring true for some people, some will
ring true for others, and some will be good typing exercise for the
poster at the very least. :-)

I still feel Joelle belittled slys ability to know that, and how she
dismisses the unmarried couples sharing in a family, and in parenting in said
families. Thats the bottom line on that.
Bev

Well, obviously, your feelings are your own and it's not up to anybody
to tell you how to feel. But of course, not everyone will feel as you
do, and they'll be just as quick to say so, and that, of course, is
Usenet.

Take care.

Cele

Quite a few of us
have been through agonising depression and medication and grief and
bereavement and pain with our kids. It's a bit minimising of that to
have you say you're the only one,

Okay, lemme explain again because I'm in no way minimizing anybody's pain and
experience. I overstated the case because I thought it was so ironic that Kit
and my boys were SO similar with the anger and outbursts that don't make sense.
Frankly I've never known anyone to have a kid with quite the problems my son
does. It's just a matter of similarity.

Of course lots of people have difficulties with kids. God knows I'm not the
only one and I'm really lucky because it could have been worse. Although I
have to confess sometimes I used to wish my son had a drug problem, because
then at least I would know what to do.

Lots of people experience grief. But Kate and I know a particular kind of
grief, and even then, it's not the same so some things we can say "I know how
you feel" but other things we have to say "That I don't know or understand"

That's all I meant. God knows I haven't suffered any more, I don't know any
mroe, and I'm not any better than anyone else. Of course i've made mistakes.
In fact, if I do think I'm smart, it's from what I learned from my mistakes.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

On 17 Sep 2004 12:21:31 GMT, oaway (Joelle) wrote:

Quite a few of us
have been through agonising depression and medication and grief and
bereavement and pain with our kids. It's a bit minimising of that to
have you say you're the only one,

Okay, lemme explain again because I'm in no way minimizing anybody's pain and
experience. I overstated the case because I thought it was so ironic that Kit
and my boys were SO similar with the anger and outbursts that don't make sense.
Frankly I've never known anyone to have a kid with quite the problems my son
does. It's just a matter of similarity.

Fair enough. :-)

Of course lots of people have difficulties with kids. God knows I'm not the
only one and I'm really lucky because it could have been worse. Although I
have to confess sometimes I used to wish my son had a drug problem, because
then at least I would know what to do.

Heh. I went through a period of time where I wished mine had cancer
(no diminishing of the pain of cancer, to anyone here who's been
there). I thought, if she had cancer, we'd know the enemy and we'd
fight it and we'd either win or lose. This...especially before we knew
what was wrong...just felt like fighting a war with cooked spaghetti
while standing in quicksand.

Lots of people experience grief. But Kate and I know a particular kind of
grief, and even then, it's not the same so some things we can say "I know how
you feel" but other things we have to say "That I don't know or understand"

[g] Took me a minute there. I tend to think that Kate and *I* know a
particular kind of grief, because of our being the two suicide
survivors here. Just goes to show how egocentric I can be. You're
quite right, of course.

I don't use the phrase "I know how you feel" because, even when our
experiences are very similar, I don't. That's why I often phrase my
remarks in terms of my own experiences. I figure, I can't really
comment on other people's because I don't know the ins and outs of
their lives, but I can offer my *own*, and they can take what they
need and toss the rest.

I realize, though, that this could seem as if I talk endlessly about
myself. I've decided to live with that as a lesser evil.

That's all I meant. God knows I haven't suffered any more, I don't know any
mroe, and I'm not any better than anyone else. Of course i've made mistakes.
In fact, if I do think I'm smart, it's from what I learned from my mistakes.

I know, Joelle. I don't see you as thinking you're better than anyone
else. I was just a bit uncomfortable with the phraseology, is all. I'm
over it. I didn't mean to be excessively PC. Just wanted to clarify.

Be well.

Cele

--
"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it.
You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."
~Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Cele" wrote in message
...
On 17 Sep 2004 12:21:31 GMT, oaway (Joelle) wrote:

Quite a few of us
have been through agonising depression and medication and grief and
bereavement and pain with our kids. It's a bit minimising of that to
have you say you're the only one,

Okay, lemme explain again because I'm in no way minimizing anybody's pain
and
experience. I overstated the case because I thought it was so ironic
that Kit
and my boys were SO similar with the anger and outbursts that don't make
sense.
Frankly I've never known anyone to have a kid with quite the problems my
son
does. It's just a matter of similarity.

big snip
I'm discovering some things with my son that I either never realized or I
really did forget....
1) When he was born, his head was very misshapen. I'm not sure if it was a
birthing trauma or what but I'm at the point where both the therapist and I
believe that my son would benefit from a scan
2) some of his angry outbursts stem from the fact that he knows he's
different. When my ex finally divorced me (I filed 3 times and he denied me
a divorce but finally he filed and I said, "hell yeah! let's get it done!")
and set me free, he refused to allow me to change my son's last name. my
daughters' last names are hyphenated with my name and their dad's last name.
my son wants his step dad's name too but because my ex is.... well.... I
promised that I wouldn't bad mouth him so I'll refrain.... but he won't let
my sig other adopt my son, my ex won't give up his rights to my son, he
won't let me change my son's last name, etc.... making it very difficult for
me and leaving me with lots of questions to be answered.... very awkward
questions to be answered.... so my son does know he's different.
3) back in January 2003, my ex was granted a supervised visit with my son. I
was forced. I fought it as hard as I could but lost that fight. So my son
had to endure 2 hours of my ex. When my ex was granted supervised
visitations once a month for 6 months, a follow up hearing to determine if
enough progress had been made to allow for twice a month supervised visits,
etc.... my ex never followed through. My son again had some questions and
though the answers were given, my son still acted out. There's a lot of
anger in that little boy in spite of his over all sweet demeanor.
4) it's hard to hide nightmares.... those are some questions that I've had
to answer too. My son knows what had happened to me while I was married to
my ex. I also know he doesn't understand. These questions were brought up in
a session and it was the therapist and myself who came up with the best way
to answer my son's questions so he wouldn't be damaged. How do you *not*
damage a kid with an answer to a question like "mom, why is it that
sometimes when you and dad disagree and then you have a nightmare, you
scream out afraid of so-and-so hurting you?" or a question like "mom, why
did so-and-so rape you and what is rape?" It's come up in sessions. It's
in the open and it's been done in such a way that's "age appropriate" for my
2 older kids so they can understand and not be scared of my nightmares.
We've had some very good therapists who've worked with our family. THe one
we have now is fantastic!

I think that the more that I read here, I may find myself able to relate
more and I may even find more similarities..... I have a theory on why kids
of single parents act out but that's for a different time.... I know that my
son knows more than I give credit for. that's why I believe in being honest
with him.... but I'll never bad-mouth his biological father either, no
matter how much I truly hate that guy. Just because *I* feel that way,
shouldn't mean that my son should feel like that. I believe that my son
should find the truth for himself.

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:12:03 -0600, "slykitten"
wrote:

I'm discovering some things with my son that I either never realized or I
really did forget....
1) When he was born, his head was very misshapen. I'm not sure if it was a
birthing trauma or what but I'm at the point where both the therapist and I
believe that my son would benefit from a scan

Absolutely. I'm just a special ed teacher, but certainly any kind of
possible head trauma is generally investigated with a scan, especially
when there are symptoms of any sort. You definitely want to rule out
organic issues before treating them as behavioural/emotional. And a
lot of the behaviour you describe is common with closed head injuries.
It's a factor in other things, too, of course, which is why a scan is
a fine idea.

2) some of his angry outbursts stem from the fact that he knows he's
different.

Sure. The kids who sometimes have the roughest time are the ones who
are bright and aware of their differences, but not able to change
things.

When my ex finally divorced me (I filed 3 times and he denied me
a divorce but finally he filed and I said, "hell yeah! let's get it done!")
and set me free, he refused to allow me to change my son's last name. my
daughters' last names are hyphenated with my name and their dad's last name.
my son wants his step dad's name too but because my ex is.... well.... I
promised that I wouldn't bad mouth him so I'll refrain.... but he won't let
my sig other adopt my son, my ex won't give up his rights to my son, he
won't let me change my son's last name, etc.... making it very difficult for
me and leaving me with lots of questions to be answered.... very awkward
questions to be answered.... so my son does know he's different.

I'm not surprised your ex didn't want him to change his name. Whatever
faults he may have or sins he may have committed, most people feel
fairly strongly about their kids keeping their name. My own father was
not someone whose name I chose to carry after my divorce, and even
though I'd not seen him in many years, I'm told that he was pretty
choked when I went with my mother's instead.

As for that making him different, I'd guess that in and of itself it
wouldn't be a problem, if he wasn't *already* feeling insecure and
different. I could be wrong, but it's my best thought on it.

3) back in January 2003, my ex was granted a supervised visit with my son. I
was forced. I fought it as hard as I could but lost that fight. So my son
had to endure 2 hours of my ex. When my ex was granted supervised
visitations once a month for 6 months, a follow up hearing to determine if
enough progress had been made to allow for twice a month supervised visits,
etc.... my ex never followed through. My son again had some questions and
though the answers were given, my son still acted out. There's a lot of
anger in that little boy in spite of his over all sweet demeanor.

May I ask why your ex is restricted to supervised visits? Or
not....what I'm getting at, is, has your son suffered some harm that
in and of itself could be adding to things?

4) it's hard to hide nightmares.... those are some questions that I've had
to answer too. My son knows what had happened to me while I was married to
my ex. I also know he doesn't understand. These questions were brought up in
a session and it was the therapist and myself who came up with the best way
to answer my son's questions so he wouldn't be damaged. How do you *not*
damage a kid with an answer to a question like "mom, why is it that
sometimes when you and dad disagree and then you have a nightmare, you
scream out afraid of so-and-so hurting you?" or a question like "mom, why
did so-and-so rape you and what is rape?" It's come up in sessions. It's
in the open and it's been done in such a way that's "age appropriate" for my
2 older kids so they can understand and not be scared of my nightmares.
We've had some very good therapists who've worked with our family. THe one
we have now is fantastic!

Yeah, I see what you mean. It sounds like maybe you've got a touch of
PTSD? And it doesn't sound surprising that you would, if you do. My
heart goes out to you. That has to make the whole situation so much
harder. I'm glad you've got a reall fine therapist, because it sounds
like you all have a lot of healing to do. Did you get any support from
the legal system on the rape?

I think that the more that I read here, I may find myself able to relate
more and I may even find more similarities..... I have a theory on why kids
of single parents act out but that's for a different time....

They don't *all* act out, but I'd be interested in your thoughts, all
the same. :-)

I know that my
son knows more than I give credit for. that's why I believe in being honest
with him.... but I'll never bad-mouth his biological father either, no
matter how much I truly hate that guy. Just because *I* feel that way,
shouldn't mean that my son should feel like that. I believe that my son
should find the truth for himself.

Yup, I agree. My ex is a decent enough fellow, but my approach with my
daughters has been pretty much the same: shut up about him and any of
our differences, and let them decide on their own opinions for
themselves. Interestingly, now that they're in late adolesence, they
are making the same observations I did, both positive and not so
positive. I expect they can see all my faults, too. :-)

Be well.

Cele

judgement.
Everyone figures they know, and some of them do, but none of them do.

Some old church lady told me this saying that I found to be full of grace...

"Everyone knows what to do with the crazy lady except the one that keeps her"

I almost made that my sig line.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

On 17 Sep 2004 13:01:18 GMT, oaway (Joelle) wrote:

judgement.
Everyone figures they know, and some of them do, but none of them do.

Some old church lady told me this saying that I found to be full of grace...

"Everyone knows what to do with the crazy lady except the one that keeps her"

I almost made that my sig line.

Heh. Love it. It *would* make a good sig.

Cele

"Cele" wrote in message
news
Well, call me lazy, but I've only read some of the thread.

Cele, you're lazy. Okay? :-Þ

On a more serious note I'd like to make the following two points to the
universe in general.

1) I doubt there are many kids out there who actually *choose* to be
"difficult".

2) Kids don't have the monopoly on this unconditional love business. Works
for adults too.


--
Paul Griffiths