1 Cuban girl in exile, 2 dads....

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:47:42 GMT, " krp" wrote:

KANE THE LEADING EXPERT ON - -- - - (insert subject)
"0:-]" wrote in message
.. .
MINI OPUS TO FOLLOW

....snip to reduce the smoke and mirrors krp can hide behind...all
this has been covered in other posts....

No Kane it is that you are REDUNDANT (look the word up)

I found it. New spelling. p .. a .. n .. g .. b .. o .. r .. n

Now it's smoke and mirrors and fog and slight of hand...or is that
redundant repetitious repeating myself?

How's that for talent, eh? Redundant reiteration...damn, I'm good 0:]

you TRY to make
the same point in a post over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over till people want to puke!

"IF I were in practice (Ph.D. required in Florida "

Really, Ken?

Yes Kane - in Florida to practice as a PSYCHOLOGIST one must have a
Ph.D...

That wasn't the claim. "therapist," and "counselor," was.

You'd need a license to be a commercial pilot as well...but then that
wasn't the subject either, krp. Nice try though.

You get 3 charity points for a weak feint to the right.

I guess you have yet another chore. I wonder if this crime you just
described by way of say a Ph.D. is required to do therapy in Florida
comes under "mandated reporting of violations when seen?"

Oh no Kane I didn't say that one has to have a Ph.D. to do "THERAPY"

Sure you did, krp.

because social workers do THEIR version of "therapy" all the time, some with
an MSW but also many with a BSW or aven as Associate's degree. Remember
social worker types (like YOU) think they know EVERYTHING.

You said they do therapy without a license.

For you see, a number of folks without a Ph.D. seem to be doing what
you say they cannot:

Yes, social workers and Licensed Mental Health Counsellors. (and other
para professionals). Frankly I fail to see WHY an MSW can do "therapy" but
somebody with a Master's in psychology CANNOT! It sort of boggles the mind.
Better lobbying group I think.

You might understand it better if you had an MSW.

You don't suppose they have a clinical counseling track in MSW
programs do you?

snort

Odd you'd miss that, given that you claim a MS in a specific
discipline when MS can have dozens of tracks.

Pop on down to Gulfbreeze, and stop in and warn these folks they are
going to be reported, eh?

http://www.elakeviewcenter.org/TheFr...alProcess.aspx

George Crisco, Program Director
George earned his Bachelor's degree in Interdisciplinary Social
Services at the University of West Florida and his Master's degree in
Counseling and Human Development from Troy State University. He is
licensed by the State of Florida as a Mental Health Counselor and
holds certifications in Addictions by the Certification Board of
Addiction Professionals (Florida) and the international Certification
Reciprocity Consortium. He has over 20 years of experience in drug and
alcohol treatment.

Oh Kane, really???? Your best shot?

Naw, nothing even near my best. You haven't seen my best yet. And you
don't want to.

Moore is a piker compared to me. I'd have your own words, witnessed,
to present if I wanted to nail your ass.

You are too pathetic. I'd be ashamed to have you stuffed and mounted
on my wall. "You canned WHO?" they'd say. "Comein' down in the world,
ain'tcha, Kane?"

Terry Ptacek, MD, Medical Director
Dr. Ptacek earned his bachelor's degree from Fort Hays University,
Kansas. He received his medical degree fro the University of Kansas
School of Medicine in Kansas City. He completed a residency in Family
Practice at Navy Medical Center in Charleston, South Carolina. He is
board certified in family practice and is certified in the treatment
and diagnosis of addiction. He is a member of the American Medical
Association, the American Academy of Family Practice and the American
Society of Addiction Medicine.


Miss the part of the MD???

krp, I don't see that as proof of your claim, and as you might have
notice, I make it a point to NOT hide pieces of information from the
reader. I want them to make fully informed decisions about my comments
and claims. Warts and all.

Sharon D. Berry, LCSW, CAP, Clinical Director
Sharon is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) and Certified
Addiction Professional (CAP) (Florida) with the international
reciprocity consortium. She earned her masters in social work (MSW) at
Florida State University and her bachelors in social work (BSW) at the
University of West Florida. Sharon has extensive experience working
with addiction and other behavioral health disorders in both
residential and outpatient settings.


Like I said an MSW........................... SOCIAL WORKERR =
THERAPIST!!

Yes. And you said they weren't certified to practice.

Should I yell a word now? 0:]


Faith Smith, RN, BS, Director of Nursing
Faith holds a degree in Medical Administration and is a Registered
Nurse. She has been the DON at The Friary since 1990. She is a member
of the National Nurses Association.

Melanie Cassulo, LMCH, Addictions Therapist
Melanie earned her Master in Psychology from the University of West
Florida. She has worked in the substance abuse field since 1999 and in
mental health since 1995. She is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor
and specializes in co-occurring disorders.

Rita Wood, MS, Addictions Therapist
Rita received her Master of Science degree in Counseling Psychology
from Troy State University in 2003. She started her career at The
Friary in 2001 working in Admissions while completing her Master's
degree. She has received specialized training in Experiential therapy
and specializes in trauma recovery.

Is she doing "THERAPY?" As what? As a mental health counsellor?

Does addiction have a "mental" component?

Penni Tomlinson, PMHC, Addictions Therapist
Penni received her Masters of Science degree in Counseling Psychology
from Troy State University in 1997. She then worked as a community
outreach manager and counselor-educator for the U.S. Air Force. As a
National Certified Counselor, her focus turned to co-occurring
disorders, first as the lead therapist at a Tennessee psychiatric
hospital, followed by three years as a therapist in dual diagnosis
outpatient care catering to impaired professionals. Penni became a
Licensed Professional Counselor in Louisiana, heading up a hospital
dual diagnosis unit in the New Orleans area and since returning to
Florida, is a Provisional Mental Health Counselor licensee.

Don Johnson, LMHC, Addictions Therapist
Don has been at The Friary since 1987. He holds a Bachelor of Science
degree from Florida State University in Business Administration and a
Master of Science degree in Counseling Psychology from Troy State
University. He is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor.

Stacy Aberle, MA, Addictions Therapist
Stacy earned her master's degree in counseling and educational
psychology at New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM

Rebecca Darmer, Admissions Supervisor
Rebecca attended Athens State University and earned a B.S. in
Behavioral Science. She previously worked as an Admissions Specialist
at Bradford Treatment Center.

Paul Smith, Admissions Specialist
Paul holds a Bachelor's degree in Psychology from the University of
West Florida. In addition to his addiction work experience, he has
worked in psychiatric case management.

Janet Morford, Admissions Specialist
Janet earned her Bachelor's degree in Psychology from Troy State
University. Prior work experience includes admission's and intake at
Beachside Counseling Center.

4400 Hickory Shores Blvd. . Gulf Breeze, Florida 32563 . Local:
(850) 932-9375 . Toll Free: 1-800-332-2271 . Email

krp, how many fingers am I hold up?

One straight up your own ass Kane.

Mmmm...don't sneeze.

Yeeees, that's right. ONE, and it point to that list and I'm asking,
how many Doctorates of ANY kind do you see among the practicing
therapists here?

A supervisory MD Kane.... How many does it take? One for each?

Nope. And I gave YOU that information earlier, krp, when YOU claimed
an MSW couldn't practice without state certification. And it wasn't
being given by Florida.

Now we discover that some folks with MSWs ARE in fact certified to
practice.

Have I mentioned how completely stupid you are to keep insisting
assertively that certain conditions or events or concepts exist that
DO NOT actually exist?

Yeah you have BUT you are full of ****.

My **** is spelled, f a c t.

Bowlby's "fear" got kicked in the ass claim?

Still stands Kane. AGAIN while you have attempted to smokescreen the
issue, what you have NOT done is to prove that FEAR is innate in small
children, NOTHING you have posted so far refutes what I have said. Which -
AGAIN - is that fear in small children is environmental NOT innate.
(Naturally within the chilkd.) Something or someone must CAUSE the feat in a
child!

Your claim was Bowlby kicked ass on that.

You still have posted nothing to refute my direct quote of him saying
that fear is innate.

And suprise suprise, my quote and CITE, and LINK are missing from
this post.

Who'd a thought you'd have been so careless.

I've seen 8 year olds try to cheat at cards less obviously.

You have yet to answer the quote of Bowlby: "Bowlby
argued that because human babies are born helpless they are
genetically ... As attachment behaviours are innate so is the fear of
strangers. .."

Bowlby is being quoted. "are innate so is the fear of strangers."

Please explain how he can have refuted it and yet state it as fact.

Kane and to answer your BULL**** - about fear of strangers (not MY
subject)

Of course it was. We are discussing that the father appeared to her as
a strange. ""Bowlby argued that because human babies are born helpless
they are genetically ... As attachment behaviours are innate so is the
fear of strangers. ..
"

IF that is INNATE as YOU are claiming to be the ABSOLUTE CASE

While I did not make a case for "ABSOLUTE" fear is innate, which of
course, unless the child is brain damaged, makes innate fear and
absolute claim of BOWLBY: "Bowlby argued that because human babies are
born helpless they are genetically ... As attachment behaviours are
innate so is the fear of strangers. ..


with
ALL children everywhere - - -

Unless they are brain damaged. All children are born with an innate
fear of strangers. And the fear component is innate, regardless of
fear of what.

what of the FEAR of this little girl being
SNATCHED from her mother by STRANGERS ( the CPS angels) and then placed with
other STRANGERS (foster family) what of her brother's FEARS of strangers?

Diversionary bs, krp.

We are discussing whether or not her fear reaction was especilly
taught to her regarding her father, or it was a natural reaction.

And the question that either fear is innate and does not have to be
taught, or that it isn't and must be taught (a tautology on your part
if ever I saw one) is refuted again and again by author after author
on attachment quoting Bowlby.

You are so full of crap when you die I'll buy the body....cheap I'll
bet, and use you for my rose bushes.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

Results 1 - 10 of about 445 for "fear of strangers" +Bowlby. (0.30
seconds)

Virtually ALL citing Bowlby's claim of "fear of strangers" being a
fact.

Oh Kane I am NOT going to take that where I could.

I think your "Oh Kane," is to you a veiled threat.

You never think
(incapable) of the context of the bull**** you spread like margarine on
toast!

I couldn't have said, "nothing," better if I tried. What a mess your
brain must be.

No such thing, little man.

A child must be held in ingorance pending outcomes in court, when she
already KNOWS something's up...like you can hide from a four year old.

Ya think?

Ya think CPS GOONS snatching her from her mother MIGHT have
been a clue?

Doesn't go to the issue under current discussion.

You are attempting to claim that the best therapeutic practice for a
four year old that knows something is up, is to hide it.

The COPS all around with guns - perhaps drawn? Maybe a CLUE
that something is happening Kane? Then placed with STRANGERS?????? And in
KANEWORLD that is NOT frightening for a 4 year old BUT seeeing her REAL
DADDY IS! Kane you're a PIP! You really ARE a piece of work. A head case,
but interesting.

You are quoting me now, inserting my name for yours. Not very creative
lying, but then that's kpr.


That Child Development 101 stuff, dummy. Always presume that a child
may have it wrong, but knows when things are all hunky dory with the
adults around her...yeah, krp.

What are you talking about Kane?

Learn the english language.

You got your Master's with that kind of crap?

Have fun dork!

I am doing so. Tell us again about your Master's degree.

In child development, where you can hide major crises going on in the
people around her...and that the answer is to move her from them.

Very comforting for the child, and will prepare her so nicely for
events that are inevitable. One of which COULD be a sudden abrupt
change of caregiver venue.

Now we have YOU setting the standards for certification in the state of
Florida.

No the Department of Professional Regulation does that Kane.

Wellm, you said MSWs can't be certified to counsel. Not me.

You keep accusing me of claiming know everything, though I've never
claimed so.

You ALWAYS do Kane. You hold yourself oput to be an EXPERT on
EVERYTHING - you and your little search engines.

I don't pontificate from just my written word, kpr, and refuse to
provide source. Providing source in this medium means supplying a link
to it.

How would you prefer I preceed it not by search engine for the URL?

You do use them well,

Tell me about it.

but
never quite understand what you read.

Yeah, like linking to a quote of Bowlby saying fear of strangers is
innate but it being invalidated by your wonderful argument that I used
a search engine to find it, so couldn't possibly have known it
beforehand, so your argument that he refuted the longheld assertion
that children have an innate fear of strangers is no long true.

That "never quite understand what," I, "read," krp?


You take a SNIPPET you THINK supports
you and try to use it as a battering ram like the BULLY you are, but you can
never place it in an entire context (ignorance of the context) because you
have ADD that doesn't let you get to a FULL understanding of the subject.

I have yet to find a way to gently drop the load of crap you've
produced back on your head, with the facts, krp.

But I'll try.

Bowlby supports the concept of innate fear of strangers. The facts
have been posted, with the link.

Now deny that's what he meant.

Like here you SPEWED on transpotration in Cuba with NO real knowledge of the
country at all. You made DOGMATIC claims and attempted to cram them down my
throat of your VASTLY SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE of Cuba, a place you have NEVER
BEEN TO! But I have.

Claiming one can get from a farmhouse to a taxi isn't spewing, nor
dogmatic. It's a simple statement of fact. Based on the indisputable
one, unless you lied, that you got there, you can get out of there the
same way, and by alternatives.

But it's YOU that keeps screeching your expertise, only to find out
when we actually look, you are right about .01% of the time. Roughly.

According to you.

I've probably overestimated your percentage of correct claims.


99.99% wrong the rest of the time.

According to you. NONE of your LONG search engine snippets REALLY
support your side of the issue - that "FEAR" is "INNATE" in children. You
ahve TRIED to use Bowlby's "Fear of Strangers" without ANY capacity to
understand what he was saying.

He didn't say, "fear of strangers." The quote was, INNATE, the claim
you say is not only false but that he refuted it, as in kicked it in
the ass.

Did you really mean that a kick in the ass was an assertion that fear
IS innate, as is fear of strangers, as he was quoted as saying?

He was NOT saying that fear is innate in
children but he goes on in DETAIL to describe WHY a child exhibits fear. YOU
never seem to get to that part.

I can't get it if I can't see it. I've not seen it. I've read him. He
does not ever refute his own quote that, fear of strangers is innate.

Now prove me a liar or ignorant on this matter and produce his words.

Not your words, not your claims, endless spouted in repetative
droning, but his words with link to same for verification.

Now are you going to claim expertise in statistical analysis?

YOU WILL!

Well, I aced my two semesters of it in social statistics, but it also
taught me that expertise doesn't come from just reading about it doing
textbook problems.

The real world tested me much much harder. And I don't think I'd have
gotten an A letter grade....but then I didn't F out, like you do.

YOu've provided NO proof for your claim that Bowlby himself kicked the
concept of innate fear of strangers in the ass.

And I know I shouldn't waste electrons asking, but provide proof.

Feel free to supply that contextual wording that changes him appearing
to discuss it as a fact, but in fact meaning it doesn't exist.

0:]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:02:12 GMT, " krp" wrote:

KANE LEADING EXPERT ON CUBA
"0:-]" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:01:26 GMT, " krp" wrote:

" krp, we have a adversarial relationship with Cuba. We remember Ilian.
We ARE going to ask custody questions at the consulate, or it's
current standin organization.

From: %O_oi.649$Ub7.286@trnddc04 (msg ID)

"Its ELIAIN Kane... YOU are again making a FACT CLAIM that the US
IS going to ask the questions. NO Kane they aren't! Maybe they don't
know that the GREAT KANE demands it?"

Given that you misspelled it above, I presumed you were giving some
license to others, no?

It is ELIAN Kane NOT Ilian! Nice try to smoke your errors again.

Oh for **** sakes you pitiful lump of fat laced dung. YOU said it was
"Its ELIAIN Kane," WITH AND EXTRA LETTER "I"

I didn't attempt to defend MY prior mispelling.

Just that you shared the same fault in a different manner.

In otherwords, you STUPID ****ING GIT, the issue had NO bearing on
your discussion, unless you think someone would presume we had
switched to talking about ELIAIN Cortex, and the area of Cuba called,
"Iilian."

And you still got it wrong this time.

In Spanish, in Cuba, it's "Elián," that IS how his name is actually
spelled. Elián González.

Yeah Kane but I don't have a SPANISH keyboard

Your brilliance is beyond belief. You don't NEED a spanish keyboard to
use the character á. YOU HAVE IT ALREADY ON YOUR COMPUTER. Betcha
can't find it.

There is a master set of characters so Windows can be compatible with
other software.

It's called "Character MAP" and it takes, when you know which THREE
keys to press in sequence...likely beyond your ability of
coordination, and approximately THREE SECONDS TO DO, and you can
select and copy singly or in groups, all kinds of pretty squigglies:

"åÝá" for a sample.

Notice the end character? As in Elián?

What an unutterable stupe you are.

If you want to be a spelling Nazi, Heir krp, on foreign language
names, for **** sake learn how to render that damn characters
correctly. Or stuff your elbow in that gawping piehole of yours, and
shut the **** up.

so we don't get the ACCENT
symbols.

Well, not unless you want to expend horrendously huge amount of energy
and open that Character Map all Windows OS come with.

But HEY go for ther gold here Kane,

I doubt I'd get a Silver for a simple little trick even a stupid pig
could do if he had hands, with fingers.

You an amputee?

if you think the lack of accent
symbols are GREATER than a TOTAL mispelling as "Ilian" go for it.

It is when you keep insisting I'm defending my original spelling error
by pointing out that you misspelled it as "Eliain" (see that EXTRA
****IN' "I" YOU LAME ASSHOLE?)

So I went for it. And stuck your nose further UP your ****ty ass by
showing a spelling Nazi that can't ****ING SPELL.

If you are going to go to the trouble to use a dodge, krp, at least do
it with some class and cut to the core of your tool for dodging and
beat the other guy to the facts.

Kane you are a head case. REALLY!

That's the sort of thing you always say when someone has kicked your
stupid ass thoroughly.

Sorry about that character disabling bug on your system.

Oh Kane ---------- sigh What a dork!

The "dork" will lend yah a few, so you don't have to hit, [Start], can
you find it, then cover [All Programs] for highlite and dialogue
window and then [Accessories] [System Tools] then ****ing [Character
Map] and make his pick, click the select, and hit [Save] then copy to
the spot you want it in your mail, post, or doc?

As promised:

áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá

Let me know when you run out. No charge.

As to Elián's claimed well being by you, you might want to get more than
one view.
And consider what well being for a child really means, eh?

Hmmm, YOURS DOCTOR KANE? Your EXPERT evaluation of the boy?

I can't find where I made one. I do think that kids thrust into the
spotlight at an early age for the agenda of regimes and ****ants like
you are at some risk of developing difficult to manage character
traits, such as over acting self esteem, and pontificating because
they are sure they are right, without checking facts.

That's the risk for him.

What was it that did it for you, krp?

Of course you can rant that this is U.S. propaganda.
Now you might get a hot welcome in Cuba, with bands a playin' next
time you go, but you will probably get a different reception when you
return. Comprende?

So where is YOUR psychological evaluation of Elian DOCTOR KANE?

Did I offer one?

Tell us
HOW he is all "fukkked up" by being with his father THE SPERM DONOR!
THIS I want to hear! GO FOR IT DOCTOR KANE!!

Eliáááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááán, is at risk. I haven't met him,
I've no data collected by experts to view, so I'd be kind of krplike
if I attempted to do a psychsoc eval. Now if I had time with him,
well...I might take you up on it.

Can you arrange to bring him to the U.S.?

Kane it isn't about me getting a welcome.

It's about you endlessly whoring to this ng on the theory that you can
shotgun for clients by claiming all kinds of stupid things some poor
confused soul will fall for and think you are god's gift to trial
consulting.

It's about the FACT that the
boy LOVES his father and his FAMILY!

You are not in his head. He does NOW, more likely than not.

Can you say he would not have come to love his relatives here with the
same largesse lavished on him here, as in Cuba?

How many little kids do you know that has the ear, personally, of the
president of his country, that is an icon for the political forces
there?

SOmehting FOREIGN to a CPS WHORE like
you. It's something you cannot understand. It is totally outside your
experience.

Funny, I had a father. I am a father. And none of us do not or did not
while living feel anything but love for our father's. But I'll check
with my kids for yah, if yah like.

This, of course, is what you recently decribed as a wonderful life for
a child, and want for the Girl. She'll come in second to this, I
hope...

What are you babbling about?

See those three little dots....that is called an elipse. Something is
either trailing off that you can make assumptions about ... or it is
pointing to something to follow ...

And by golly, since the next is preceded by THREE MORE DOTS, a leading
elipse, I bet that's what was meant ... to ... follow ...

...Then, aside from a festive seventh birthday party at his school,
Elian was kept out of the public eye in Cuba until this past April. On
the fifth anniversary of the raid in Miami, Elian gave a patriotic
speech in front of the cameras and in the presence of Castro...

And this means ...............................??????

It means you left a stupid supperfluous question squating in **** at
the beginning of this subject...

.... and that little kids that are being used for political reasons as
public figures can start to get some strange ideas.

Still suckin' up to Castro?

I can put you in touch with some Little Cuba folks in Miami that would
love to discuss politics with you.

In fact, doubtless they are on line.

Would you like to tell them your opinion of
Eliáááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá's mother despritatly to get him to
the US and his return to Cuba by the use of force on our part?

I think you should debate. And by golly I've got just the day in mind
to open the lines of communication on your behalf.

Don't know the date yet, but I do know the occasion.

He's so politically important his father is now a Cuban assemblyman.
Doubtless on merit alone. 0:]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...50_page3.shtml

Fun jawin' witchah, pathetic one.
sheeeeeeee......shake shake shake.

And that means that the child is a basket case Kane?

Didn't say he was. I do think any child that is thrust into the
spotlight by adults, even mom or dad, at an early age, may be at risk
of character problems

I HATE to bring up Paris Hilton and the poptarts, and boy wonders, and
Donny Boneducci, but gee, you forced me.

Kane since
neither of us has a current in depth psychological evaluation of Elian, all
we can do is observe the externals.

Correct. I can't wait for the other shoe to drop.

The affection demonstrated between the
child, his father, his step-mother and his half sibling.

On Cuba soil, being VIDEO TAPED, wonderboy. And folks behind the
Cameras, smiling and scowling by turns.

You do know about how to condition other's reactions, right?

Then we can see
that Elian has many playmates in his neighborhood and is regarded well by
his classmates at his school.

Speak to Marshall about what we see through the eye of the TV camera
on our screens.

We see that people around Elian all seem to
like him, neighbors and such.

I can shoot hundreds of tapes, or fill up CDs now, with recordings of
my dog doing tricks. When he gets the RIGHT, and by cutting and moving
various image strings, I can get one that will make him look better
than Lassie, Rin Tin Tin, and Rusty, Roy's dog all rolled into one.

You honestly believe that a politically produced video is superior to
a psych eval recording under strict testing protocols that one's
professional reputation can ride on, if the testers and witnesses are
found to have jimmied the interview or the resulting tape?

He seemed to have a rather large birthday
party at his home.

I want to see him, with no one around, when he buries his beloved dog
at the end of the dogs life.

Then I might get some idea of the psychological strength and
resiliance and crises handling ability of the person. The boy.

I hardly think giving you a psych eval, or YOU making one, based on
state sponsored taping of his birthday party is anything more than any
other kid's party....if daddy knows how to take out the crying, the
little fights, the disappointment of getting the pair of skates,
rather than the bike he really wanted, and the kitten instead of the
pony.

Kane you are an ignorant ASS.

Because I won't presume a child's innerstate and his psychological
development progress from a state sponsored, likely state video
recorded staged birthday party?

Yeah, sure, kpr. Whatever you say.

You are, of course, presenting this as though we are to assume he's
just hunky dory, psychologically speaking, developmental wise, are we
not?

Okay YOU go with the birthday party, I'll go with a being a quite but
supportive observer when it's time to bury his dog.

Were you even dimly aware that Juan Miguel
Gonzalez was an official in Cuba BEFORE the events that took the boy to
Miami?

I was dimly aware they were divorced. But ...

.... nope, I don't know his position. Citations please.

If he was hot stuff all the more reason for Fidel to pull all the
strings available. Was the father still tight with the mother, and
with his child, Eliáááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááán?

Were you aware of the mother's position in the Cuban government?

Well, I'm aware she was in such a position of power that she risked
her boy's life and her's to climb into a tiny overcrowded fishing boat
to try and escape. Ten people including her did die.

But I can't see that as anything but negative reinforcement for
Fidel's folks to use him to refute the MOTHER in grand political
style. And they wouldn't even have to mention her name.
So, what was her position?

Do
you have a CLUE as to the real intentions of his mother? Has anyone told you
that smuggling people to the U.S. was a business of her new husband
(boyfriend)? That he had taken people before? Several times?

Can you make a cogent connection to a claim...and make your claim
appaerent before you do?

Kane it is always IN CONTEXT where your bull**** falls apart.

That the return to Cuba might have less than the wondeful outcome you
claimed? Well, I've made no concrete claims at all, other than common
knowledge that to much fame, especially if not earned, and being used
by adults for their own ends, has a bit of risk for the child in it.

Where your
arrogance runs away with your ADD. It's what you DON'T know that trips you
up.

Well if I had claimed that the boy's parents were married, much in
love, she came on a cruise ship 200 yards long, in a stateroom, and
with the blessings of Fidel, I'd be pushing credulity.

On the other hand, to attempt to assing a pack of YOUR lies to my
actual comments and speculations has **** all OVER your credibility.

But that's krp for yah.

k, do you think a child, this one, after he was rescued at sea on
having spent two days alone in shark-infested waters was competent to
hold out against adults from either side and make an informed and
independent decision and announce it to the public about who he loved
and who he didn't?

At what point had he been long enough in a "neutral" setting that your
claim you would require, to be indepent of influences, and
sufficiently healed from PTSD (24 hours ALONE floating on an innertube
in shark infested ocean?) to make such a choice and have it be in his
own interest, even if he know all the ramifications of 'best
interest?'

You couldn't have done that yoursel. In fact, you can't NOW. You
constantly make bad decisions and increase the crowd of folks that
both hold you in contempt, and are digusted by you, and here and there
hate you and have good reason.

And YOU want to claim the this boy made an independent decision?

From his own interview in Cuba in later years, about the time, he may
well have witnessed his mother's final moments struggling for a hold
on that single innertube, or she won, put him on it, and let go so he
would have a better chance.

That can do things to people's heads, little man. Especially children.

What do you think of this admittedly by the author, speculative paper
on the issues for Elian?

http://www.rossinst.com/elian_gonzalez.htm

ELIAN GONZALEZ PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE
Colin A. Ross, M.D.
7/17/00


The following psychological profile is based on public domain
information available through television and newspapers. Ordinarily, a
psychiatrist cannot comment on the mental state of a person without
examining the individual. I am constructing a psychological profile of
Elian Gonzalez based on the structure and known facts of the
situation. I will describe the conflicts and mental state I would
expect to see in a 6-year old boy exposed to the extreme experiences
undergone by Elian Gonzalez.

Known Facts

Elian's mother and father were divorced and he was living with his
mother before he left Cuba by boat on November 22, 1999. The boat
capsized on November 23, and his mother drowned. Elian was rescued at
sea on November 25, having spent two days alone in shark-infested
waters. He then lived with relatives in Miami until he was seized by
the INS in an early morning raid on April 22, 2000. Elian's father
came to the U.S. from Cuba prior to the seizure.

During the INS raid, Elian was extracted from his relatives' home at
gunpoint. He returned to Cuba with his father on June 28.

Likelihood of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder

The odds that Elian Gonzalez has posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
are very high. According to the American Psychiatric Association's
official diagnostic manual, DSM-IV, the traumatic event causing PTSD
must meet the following criteria:

(1) the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with
an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious
injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others

(2) the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness,
or horror.

Who would dispute that Elian meets these criteria?

If Elian Gonzalez does have PTSD, in theory it could have been present
prior to his leaving Cuba, but prior to his departure there are no
publicly known stressful events sufficient to cause PTSD. The death of
his mother could have caused PTSD by itself. Likewise, both being
alone at sea for two days, and the INS raid could have caused PTSD by
themselves. Add all three experiences together, and you have high odds
but not a certainty of PTSD. If there is a civil lawsuit against the
U.S. government for psychological damages to Elian, a point of
contention will be what proportion of the damages pre-existed Elian's
arrival on U.S. soil, what proportion can be blamed on his Miami
relatives, what proportion can be blamed on the INS raid, and what
proportion was caused by events subsequent to the raid.

Loyalty Conflict With His Parents

The divorce of his parents placed Elian in an unavoidable loyalty
conflict. He was living with his mother, which would foster a primary
identification with her. But he did not forget his father. Therefore
there was a torn allegiance. How conflicted, unhealthy and painful the
loyalty conflict became for Elian depended on how his parents handled
the situation. However, zero conflict was not an option.

The mother's decision to leave Cuba is presumptive evidence that there
was considerable conflict and disagreement between Elian's parents.

Structurally, as soon as they left Cuba, a set-up was in place. Cuba,
Castro and Elian's father were consolidated together in his mind as
bad. The United States, freedom and his mother were consolidated
together as good. His good mother was heroically rescuing him from the
bad Castro, Cuba and father. All was well. Except that Elian also
loved his father. So there was conflict inside Elian, which he
probably could not express to his mother, maybe not even to himself.
He had to repudiate the father he loved and missed.

Then his mother drowned. Now he was alone with no parents. Literally
alone, in shark-infested waters. Until he was rescued by a
Cuban-American fisherman from the Good America. Now everything was OK
again because he was in the Good America with his Miami relatives.
They may have fostered the Cuba-U.S, split and the good mother-bad
father split through their words and actions. The only place he was
safe and loved was in Miami with his relatives. His bad father was far
way in bad Cuba.

This black and white thinking, called dichotomized thinking in the
professional literature, is absolutely normal for a 6-year old child.
Six-year old children do not think or feel in abstract, adult
categories with subtle shades of gray. They do not grasp the
complexities of U.S. immigration law or geopolitics.

But then everything was flipped backwards. Dad arrived, and loved his
son, and wanted to take him back to Cuba, his real home. His real dad.
The INS raid proved two contradictory things: his Miami relatives were
so bad, so criminal, that he had to be rescued from them at gunpoint;
and, the U.S. was so bad it raided his beloved relatives' home with
assault weapons.

In the midst of this terror, the contradiction could not be resolved.
It cannot be, without good long term therapy, a stable home, and
consistent love. Elian Gonzalez is at very high risk for complicated
bereavement. He will have great trouble mourning his mother's death.
Is she the bad mom who stole him from Cuba and his loving father? Or
the heroic good mom who gave her life that he might be free? And what
is "freedom" to a six-year old anyway?

Should Elian be angry at his mom for initiating the departure from
Cuba, getting herself killed, and causing the INS raid? Or should he
be full of loss, sadness and grief? The answer? He will feel both. But
feeling both will be intolerable.

Should he be angry at his dad for driving his mom out of Cuba, causing
the divorce, and not protecting and saving his mom while she was at
sea? Or should he thank his father for being there after his mother
needlessly threw her life way? Again, he will feel both, and feeling
both will be intolerable.

Without help, Elian will be at high risk for suppressing one half of
the conflict. If he had stayed in the U.S. with his Miami relatives,
Cuba, Castro and his father would have been bad. He would have been
able to mourn the loss of the good mom and vent his anger at the bad
dad. He would not have been able to mourn the loss of daily contact
with his beloved father, nor vent his anger at his mother.

Inversely, since his return to Cuba, he will be able to vent his anger
at the bad mother, United States and Miami relatives, but will have
trouble with his grief about his mother and will not be able to vent
his anger at the bad Cuba, Castro and father who drove his mother into
the sea.

How all of this is worked out will depend on how it is handled by the
adults around him. What I am describing are the internal conflicts
which arise from the structure of the situation. They are not
assessments of the adults. No matter how kind and thoughtful his
father and his Miami relatives are, the structural conflict is
present, is deeply painful, and will not go away easily.

Potential For Mind Control of Elian Gonzalez

Because of the internal conflicts described above, Elian is an
excellent candidate for mind control. In Cuba, the task of a doctor
assigned to brainwash him would be to consolidate his identification
with the good Cuba, good Castro and good father. This would be
reinforced by information control, indoctrination, and privileges and
financial rewards for him and his father. The identification with good
mother, good Miami relatives and the good United States would be
suppressed. The terror of the INS raid would make this task easy.

Communist mind control techniques are described in Edward Hunter's
1951 book, Brainwashing In Red China. The procedure is also called
thought reform, and was used on a massive scale in China in the
1950's. Today, early in the twenty-first century, Castro is funded
directly by the Communist Chinese.

The United States would be defined by the mind control doctors as a
terrorist state. The way to undo the victimization Elian experienced
by the U.S. terrorist state at age six would be to take the inverse
position: to become the terrorist. Elian is highly susceptible for
recruitment and training as a terrorist or an anti-U.S. ideologist and
propagandist.

For the mind control doctor, the problem of his primary identification
with the good mother and the good U.S. would remain. If Elian ever
flipped over to this opposite set of identifications, he could become
a major liability for Cuba and world Communism. A sophisticated mind
control program would solve this problem by reinforcing the
dissociation between the good Cuba and bad U.S. in Elian's mind. The
dissociated set of counter-identifications with mother and the U.S.
would then be conditioned and indoctrinated separately. As soon as
Elian identified with his good mother and the good U.S., he would be
reminded of the INS raid. The good United States betrayed him. His
mother was wrong.

The identification of good mother with good United States would be
split in half. Then allegiance to the mother would be based on
understanding that she too was betrayed and tricked by
U.S.-sympathizing propagandists into leaving Cuba. They promised her
freedom but delivered death. Elian saw the same forces of death during
the INS raid. He knows.

The divided allegiance to mother and dad would then be united in the
defiance of the United States. The conflict would be resolved. Cuba
and world communism would get full allegiance. There would be total
loyalty and total control. Elian Gonzalez would become the poster boy
for world Communism, living proof of the treachery of the United
States.

Two opposing images a 1) Elian Gonzalez being extracted from his
relatives' home at gunpoint, and 2) the Chinese student standing in
front of a tank in Tienamen Square. The INS raid would be proof,
within Chinese propaganda, of U.S. violation of human rights.

In reality, the INS raid was not a considered decision of the American
people, and must have been vigorously opposed by many advisors in
government. It was a major trauma for Elian Gonzalez, his father, and
his Miami relatives. But a six-year old boy cannot grasp such facts.
His mind works in black-and-white, dichotomized thinking.

Elian Gonzalez needs good therapy and a stable home. How do I know
that, never having met him? Because he is a human being. The
psychological profile I have just drawn is the normal reaction of any
six-year old to the trauma Elian Gonzalez has experienced. In
professional language, the trauma he has experienced is categorized as
catastrophic.

The question is not, what is Elian Gonzalez's mental state today? The
question is, what will it be twenty years from now?
[Return to Home Page]
Copyright ©1996-2006 by the Colin A. Ross Institute. All Rights
Reserved.

Colin A. Ross Institute. All Rights Reserved.

ANOTHER KANE FILIBUSTER!!!
"0:-]" wrote in message
...

....snip to reduce the smoke and mirrors krp can hide behind...all
this has been covered in other posts....


And string cite of a LONG bibliography so as to PRETEND to know a
subject you clearly do NOT, citations that do NOT support your contention
that
FEAR is insate in children when NONE of the authors supports that.

No Kane it is that you are REDUNDANT (look the word up)

I found it. New spelling. p .. a .. n .. g .. b .. o .. r .. n

YOU are the one with the long winded FILIBUSTERS Kane. 50 pages of your
RAVIN G BULL****, most of which is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the actual topic
at hand just your pathetic attempt to start 50 brushfires to cover the REAL
claims of yours with smoke.

Now it's smoke and mirrors and fog and slight of hand...or is that
redundant repetitious repeating myself?

Yep.

How's that for talent, eh? Redundant reiteration...damn, I'm good 0:]

Nauseating is the word Kane. And this related to the Cuban child
HOW??????

you TRY to make
the same point in a post over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over till people want to puke!

"IF I were in practice (Ph.D. required in Florida "

Really, Ken?

Yes Kane - in Florida to practice as a PSYCHOLOGIST one must have a
Ph.D...

That wasn't the claim. "therapist," and "counselor," was.

No Kane.

You'd need a license to be a commercial pilot as well...but then that
wasn't the subject either, krp. Nice try though.

You get 3 charity points for a weak feint to the right.

And you get 1 poitn for MORE BULL****.

I guess you have yet another chore. I wonder if this crime you just
described by way of say a Ph.D. is required to do therapy in Florida
comes under "mandated reporting of violations when seen?"

Oh no Kane I didn't say that one has to have a Ph.D. to do "THERAPY"

Sure you did, krp.

because social workers do THEIR version of "therapy" all the time, some
with
an MSW but also many with a BSW or aven as Associate's degree. Remember
social worker types (like YOU) think they know EVERYTHING.

You said they do therapy without a license.

Not quite Kane.

For you see, a number of folks without a Ph.D. seem to be doing what
you say they cannot:

Yes, social workers and Licensed Mental Health Counsellors. (and other
para professionals). Frankly I fail to see WHY an MSW can do "therapy" but
somebody with a Master's in psychology CANNOT! It sort of boggles the
mind.
Better lobbying group I think.

You might understand it better if you had an MSW.

Not really I am not at all impressed with para professionals doing
things they don't understand.

You don't suppose they have a clinical counseling track in MSW
programs do you?

Yeah they do. They are BULL**** Kane. (IMHO)

snort

Odd you'd miss that, given that you claim a MS in a specific
discipline when MS can have dozens of tracks.

Yes it can.

Pop on down to Gulfbreeze, and stop in and warn these folks they are
going to be reported, eh?

http://www.elakeviewcenter.org/TheFr...alProcess.aspx

George Crisco, Program Director
George earned his Bachelor's degree in Interdisciplinary Social
Services at the University of West Florida and his Master's degree in
Counseling and Human Development from Troy State University. He is
licensed by the State of Florida as a Mental Health Counselor and
holds certifications in Addictions by the Certification Board of
Addiction Professionals (Florida) and the international Certification
Reciprocity Consortium. He has over 20 years of experience in drug and
alcohol treatment.

Oh Kane, really???? Your best shot?

Naw, nothing even near my best. You haven't seen my best yet. And you
don't want to.


Ohhh you're a real BADASS eh Kane? I should be AFRAID of you, eh
Commander McBragg?

Moore is a piker compared to me. I'd have your own words, witnessed,
to present if I wanted to nail your ass.

Oooh I forgot all your connections with the BLACK OPS folks and such.
When can I expect the black helicopters over my house Kane? Should I stay up
all night waiting? Will they do a HALO insertion into my back yeards Mr.
Bond?

You are too pathetic. I'd be ashamed to have you stuffed and mounted
on my wall. "You canned WHO?" they'd say. "Comein' down in the world,
ain'tcha, Kane?"

Yep Kane you are a CERTIFIED INTERNET BADASS! We ALL should live in
terror of the GREAT KANE the SUPERHERO! Tell me Kane, what color is your
cape?

Terry Ptacek, MD, Medical Director
Dr. Ptacek earned his bachelor's degree from Fort Hays University,
Kansas. He received his medical degree fro the University of Kansas
School of Medicine in Kansas City. He completed a residency in Family
Practice at Navy Medical Center in Charleston, South Carolina. He is
board certified in family practice and is certified in the treatment
and diagnosis of addiction. He is a member of the American Medical
Association, the American Academy of Family Practice and the American
Society of Addiction Medicine.

Miss the part of the MD???

krp, I don't see that as proof of your claim, and as you might have
notice, I make it a point to NOT hide pieces of information from the
reader. I want them to make fully informed decisions about my comments
and claims. Warts and all.

What was my claim Kane?

Sharon D. Berry, LCSW, CAP, Clinical Director
Sharon is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) and Certified
Addiction Professional (CAP) (Florida) with the international
reciprocity consortium. She earned her masters in social work (MSW) at
Florida State University and her bachelors in social work (BSW) at the
University of West Florida. Sharon has extensive experience working
with addiction and other behavioral health disorders in both
residential and outpatient settings.

Like I said an MSW........................... SOCIAL WORKER -
THERAPIST!!

Yes. And you said they weren't certified to practice.

No that is NOT what I said KANE. Nice SMOKE though! 3 pages already and
NONE of it relavent to the topic at hand. FILIBUSTER!

Should I yell a word now? 0:]

Yeah try FILIBUSTER! That'd work.

Faith Smith, RN, BS, Director of Nursing
Faith holds a degree in Medical Administration and is a Registered
Nurse. She has been the DON at The Friary since 1990. She is a member
of the National Nurses Association.

Melanie Cassulo, LMCH, Addictions Therapist
Melanie earned her Master in Psychology from the University of West
Florida. She has worked in the substance abuse field since 1999 and in
mental health since 1995. She is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor
and specializes in co-occurring disorders.

Rita Wood, MS, Addictions Therapist
Rita received her Master of Science degree in Counseling Psychology
from Troy State University in 2003. She started her career at The
Friary in 2001 working in Admissions while completing her Master's
degree. She has received specialized training in Experiential therapy
and specializes in trauma recovery.

Is she doing "THERAPY?" As what? As a mental health counsellor?

Does addiction have a "mental" component?

In YOUR case............. Yep.

Penni Tomlinson, PMHC, Addictions Therapist
Penni received her Masters of Science degree in Counseling Psychology
from Troy State University in 1997. She then worked as a community
outreach manager and counselor-educator for the U.S. Air Force. As a
National Certified Counselor, her focus turned to co-occurring
disorders, first as the lead therapist at a Tennessee psychiatric
hospital, followed by three years as a therapist in dual diagnosis
outpatient care catering to impaired professionals. Penni became a
Licensed Professional Counselor in Louisiana, heading up a hospital
dual diagnosis unit in the New Orleans area and since returning to
Florida, is a Provisional Mental Health Counselor licensee.

Don Johnson, LMHC, Addictions Therapist
Don has been at The Friary since 1987. He holds a Bachelor of Science
degree from Florida State University in Business Administration and a
Master of Science degree in Counseling Psychology from Troy State
University. He is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor.

Stacy Aberle, MA, Addictions Therapist
Stacy earned her master's degree in counseling and educational
psychology at New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM

Rebecca Darmer, Admissions Supervisor
Rebecca attended Athens State University and earned a B.S. in
Behavioral Science. She previously worked as an Admissions Specialist
at Bradford Treatment Center.

Paul Smith, Admissions Specialist
Paul holds a Bachelor's degree in Psychology from the University of
West Florida. In addition to his addiction work experience, he has
worked in psychiatric case management.

Janet Morford, Admissions Specialist
Janet earned her Bachelor's degree in Psychology from Troy State
University. Prior work experience includes admission's and intake at
Beachside Counseling Center.

4400 Hickory Shores Blvd. . Gulf Breeze, Florida 32563 . Local:
(850) 932-9375 . Toll Free: 1-800-332-2271 . Email

krp, how many fingers am I hold up?

One straight up your own ass Kane.

Mmmm...don't sneeze.

FILIBUSTER!

Yeeees, that's right. ONE, and it point to that list and I'm asking,
how many Doctorates of ANY kind do you see among the practicing
therapists here?

A supervisory MD Kane.... How many does it take? One for each?

Nope. And I gave YOU that information earlier, krp, when YOU claimed
an MSW couldn't practice without state certification. And it wasn't
being given by Florida.

Now we discover that some folks with MSWs ARE in fact certified to
practice.

Yep just give them a grass skirt and a bone for their nose and they're
ALL SET!

Have I mentioned how completely stupid you are to keep insisting
assertively that certain conditions or events or concepts exist that
DO NOT actually exist?

Yeah you have BUT you are full of ****.

My **** is spelled, f a c t.

But it smells like **** Kane. Maybe you only THINK they are facts when
in fact they are part of a FILIBUSTER. Do you know what the components of a
FILIBUSTER are Kane? Hours of endless IRELEVANT bull****. You - page after
page after page after page after page after page of **** totally unrelated
to the issue under discussion. You're a funny guy Kane.

Bowlby's "fear" got kicked in the ass claim?

Still stands Kane. AGAIN while you have attempted to smokescreen the
issue, what you have NOT done is to prove that FEAR is innate in small
children, NOTHING you have posted so far refutes what I have said. Which -
AGAIN - is that fear in small children is environmental NOT innate.
(Naturally within the chilkd.) Something or someone must CAUSE the feat in
a
child!

Your claim was Bowlby kicked ass on that.

He did.

You still have posted nothing to refute my direct quote of him saying
that fear is innate.

Funny Bowlby did NOT say fear was INNATE. Bowlby said that things CAUSE
fear. You DO know what INNATE means, don't you Kane? It means "occuring
within." Meaning that IF we accept YOUR nonsense interpretation of this
(Bowlby etc) that ALL children from bith would be riddled with fear. Fear of
EVRYTHING (or maybe you mean just strangers). No Kane - IF you read ALL of
what Bowlby said, fear is learned, it comes from others imparting the fear
or experiences. For example a child can develop a fear of heights from their
mommy screaming out when they climb something that transfers the mother's
fear to the child, OR the child can fall and be hurt. In each case the fear
would be a LEARNED RESPONSE - a learned response to environmental STIMULI
and NOT something just occuring within the child or being BORN with it. Your
claims are BULL**** and self contradictory Kane. You are too stupid to
realize it, on one hand you STRIDENTLY ARGUE that fear is INNATE in
children. Fear of strangers. YET we have a case before us of the STATE
taking away BOTH parents from children and placing them with TOTAL
STRANGERS...... And you say the chldren (FACT CLAIM) are NOT afraid of them,
but are TERRIFIED of the bith father/ SPERM DONOR..... You like that term
don't you Kane? SHows up under your authorship on Google quite a bit doesn't
it? Why do you think you need so to refer to fathers as "SPERM DONORS" Kane?
Do you think doing that e;levates your own deficient manhood? Or shows your
"education?"

And suprise suprise, my quote and CITE, and LINK are missing from this
post.
Who'd a thought you'd have been so careless.

The cite where you THINK BOWLBY and not the GRETA KANE himself said that
ALL FEARS ARE IN CHILDREN AT BIRTH????????

I've seen 8 year olds try to cheat at cards less obviously.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You have yet to answer the quote of Bowlby: "Bowlby
argued that because human babies are born helpless they are
genetically ... As attachment behaviours are innate so is the fear of
strangers. .."

Kane is ANY person ever 100% accurate? Now read the REST of Bowlby and
PLEASE don't take ONE SENTENCE and try to summarize almost 50 years of work.

Bowlby is being quoted. "are innate so is the fear of strangers."

ATTACHMENT is innate Kane. It's a primal thing. FEAR is NOT. LEARNING
is. Children ACQUIRE fears. They get it from people or events. Kane you are
a MORON... Little kids do not have the fears they actually need. Which is
WHY you damn IGNORAMUS - we put fences around swimming pools where kids can
get at them. Do you know how many kids walk up to pet alligators and get
eaten because they do not yet have a fear of them? NO Kane you probably
don't.

Please explain how he can have refuted it and yet state it as fact.

No Kane, Blowlby did NOT - again you read things you just lack the
capacity to understand. You as ADD boy HALF READ **** and miss the whole
point. You TRY to take a single sentence out of context - misinterpret it
and build a FILIBUSTER on it.

Kane and to answer your BULL**** - about fear of strangers (not MY
subject)

Of course it was. We are discussing that the father appeared to her as
a strange. ""Bowlby argued that because human babies are born helpless
they are genetically ... As attachment behaviours are innate so is the
fear of strangers. .."

Kane WHO is the stranger? The biological father of FOSTER PARENTS the child
had never seen before and have NO RELATION whatever other than speaking
Spanish and sharing Cuban heritage somewhere in the past?

IF that is INNATE as YOU are claiming to be the ABSOLUTE CASE

While I did not make a case for "ABSOLUTE" fear is innate, which of
course, unless the child is brain damaged, makes innate fear and
absolute claim of BOWLBY: "Bowlby argued that because human babies are
born helpless they are genetically ... As attachment behaviours are
innate so is the fear of strangers. ..

Sentence fragments to make a point Kane? Clever editing. ATTACHMENT is
INNATE Kane - NOT FEAR! Do you know what BONDING is? Do you know what
SEPARATION ANXIETY is? NO! But you'll now RUN to your INSIPID search enging
and find a BIBLIOGRAPHY with 400 listings you will append to TRY to prove
you know what the fukk you are talking abotu regardles sthat 399 of them
will be on OTHER subjects and the ONE that is on point does NOT support your
STUPID claims..

FILIBUSTER ALERT:

with
ALL children everywhere - - -

Unless they are brain damaged. All children are born with an innate
fear of strangers. And the fear component is innate, regardless of
fear of what.

NO they are NOT Kane. You misread the research. TOTALLY..... Not even
close. In the main body the article you cited STATES quite clearly that when
the infant was at a near equal level there was NO fear - however when the
very large (Over 6 foot tall) person hovered OVER them and the child was in
an inferior position and the person made menacing movement that the child
showed fear. That does NOT mean INNATE Kane. That means a LEARNED behavior,
a propted response to STIMULI! Kane you TWIT - research methods have
improved greatly in the 50+ years since the original research. We have a
better idea today what things can influence children's perceptions. We have
far better ways to measure. Frankly wer have real time video now and FILM
was something that was out of reach but all the most gloriously funded
research. At best you had grainy and blurry black and white 16mm SILENT
images much of the time. Sound was a LUXURY.

what of the FEAR of this little girl being SNATCHED from her mother by
STRANGERS ( the CPS angels) and then placed with
other STRANGERS (foster family) what of her brother's FEARS of strangers?

Diversionary bs, krp.

NO KANE! The FACTS of THE CASE WER ARE DISCUSSING. Not your PSYCHO
FILIBUSTER!

We are discussing whether or not her fear reaction was especilly
taught to her regarding her father, or it was a natural reaction.

It wasn't natural. WHY should the father evoke FEAR in the child?????
More so than two people that the child had NEVER SEEN until Social Workers
swooped down and snatched her from her mother as they hauled mommy off to a
padded room and put her with the people she didn't know at all?

And the question that either fear is innate and does not have to be
taught, or that it isn't and must be taught (a tautology on your part
if ever I saw one) is refuted again and again by author after author
on attachment quoting Bowlby.

Fear is A LEARNED thing Kane. Jesus Christ...........

1.. Fear of predators is not "natural":study: Scientific American
Fear of predators is not instinctive but is a learned behavior that only
de... (Reuters) - Fear of predators is not instinctive but is a learned
behavior that ...
sciam.com/article.cfm?alias=fear-of-predators-is-not&chanId=sa003&... -
55k - Cached

You are so full of crap when you die I'll buy the body....cheap I'll
bet, and use you for my rose bushes.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

Results 1 - 10 of about 445 for "fear of strangers" +Bowlby. (0.30
seconds)

Virtually ALL citing Bowlby's claim of "fear of strangers" being a
fact.

Oh Kane you simpleton. Fear of strangers is common. BUT WHY? What is the
gestation of that fear? You misunderstand the entire point It is a LEARNED
BEHAVIOR Kane.............. Your ADD reading problems loom large over your
FILIBUSTERS...

Oh Kane I am NOT going to take that where I could.

I think your "Oh Kane," is to you a veiled threat.

It is an expression of exasperation at your FILIBUSTERS....

You never think
(incapable) of the context of the bull**** you spread like margarine on
toast!

I couldn't have said, "nothing," better if I tried. What a mess your
brain must be.

No such thing, little man.

A child must be held in ingorance pending outcomes in court, when she
already KNOWS something's up...like you can hide from a four year old.

Ya think?

Ya think CPS GOONS snatching her from her mother MIGHT have
been a clue?

Doesn't go to the issue under current discussion.

Sure it does. It goes to LEARNING! It's an experience Kane. Like I
said - a child can learn to FEAR seeing an aligator in their back yard
because Mommy warned the kid OR the child could learn by seeing that
aligator eat their pet FLUFFY! You know Kane the blood and doggie heair
everywhere MIGHT tend to scare the living **** out of a little kid along
with the yelping. But it is a LEARNED RESPONSE to STIMULI Kane.

You are attempting to claim that the best therapeutic practice for a
four year old that knows something is up, is to hide it.

Did I say that? See you have the same problems reading what I said with
reading what Bowlby actually said.

The COPS all around with guns - perhaps drawn? Maybe a CLUE
that something is happening Kane? Then placed with STRANGERS?????? And in
KANEWORLD that is NOT frightening for a 4 year old BUT seeeing her REAL
DADDY IS! Kane you're a PIP! You really ARE a piece of work. A head case,
but interesting.

You are quoting me now, inserting my name for yours. Not very creative
lying, but then that's kpr.

Kane READ the above AGAIN. Your ADD and dyslexia have you confused.

That Child Development 101 stuff, dummy. Always presume that a child
may have it wrong, but knows when things are all hunky dory with the
adults around her...yeah, krp.

What are you talking about Kane?

Learn the english language.

I'm not the one crippled with ADD and DYSLEXIA Kane - YOU ARE!

You got your Master's with that kind of crap?

Have fun dork!

I am doing so. Tell us again about your Master's degree.

Tell us again abotu your 50 page FILIBUSTERS Kane!!

In child development, where you can hide major crises going on in the
people around her...and that the answer is to move her from them.

Is it? That the ONLY answer Kane? Or just the best some SOCIAL WORKER
could come up with?

Very comforting for the child, and will prepare her so nicely for
events that are inevitable. One of which COULD be a sudden abrupt
change of caregiver venue.

Sure and would that not - - TEACH - - a small child to fear
strangers?

Kane do you KNOW that yanking the kids from their mother and confining
her to a mental ward was the ONLY or even BEST answer? While YOU - - THE
GREAT KANE have lept to many dogmatic conclusions - I'm not so sure. The
mother had a "major depression" and had attempted suicide. Is there NO
possibility that a psychiatrist could have helped with medication for the
depression and treated her successfully as an outpatient? Funny thing Kane
the "evaluation" seemed to have been done by a CPS caseworker (CV unknown)
and NOT an attending physican. Do we even NOW have a full psychiatric workup
on her? Or do YOU the GREAT KANE have it? Share??

Now we have YOU setting the standards for certification in the state of
Florida.

No the Department of Professional Regulation does that Kane.

Wellm, you said MSWs can't be certified to counsel. Not me.

No Kane! YOU said that. I said that a PSYCHOLOGIST must have a Ph.D.to
practice therapy Kane. We can work as technicians under supervision with
less than a Ph.D. but can't call ourselves practicing psychologists. We can
rightly call ourselves psychologists, HOWEVER, we cannot intimate that we
ARE licensed psycholgists in practice.

You keep accusing me of claiming know everything, though I've never
claimed so.

You ALWAYS do Kane. You hold yourself oput to be an EXPERT on
EVERYTHING - you and your little search engines.

I don't pontificate from just my written word, kpr, and refuse to
provide source. Providing source in this medium means supplying a link
to it.

Where do you think you found out that John Bowlby existed? On your own?
HA!

How would you prefer I preceed it not by search engine for the URL?

With REALITY based comments. With some real UNDERSTANDING of the
processes at work. You HALF READ **** and then compound that with
misunderstanding the half you DO read.

You do use them well,

Tell me about it.

but
never quite understand what you read.

Yeah, like linking to a quote of Bowlby saying fear of strangers is
innate but it being invalidated by your wonderful argument that I used
a search engine to find it, so couldn't possibly have known it
beforehand, so your argument that he refuted the longheld assertion
that children have an innate fear of strangers is no long true.

But that is NOT what he said. It's what YOU read - - ADD boy, but you
read it wrong. You snipped someing out of context yoiu simply don't
understanbd IN its entire context.

That "never quite understand what," I, "read," krp?

Yes ADD boy that's your problem. You often MISREAD things - have NO
concept of their context - a rather unique ability to take ANY subject and
muddle the **** out of it. Paul Harvey was created for you..... "and NOW
the REST of the story....."


You take a SNIPPET you THINK supports
you and try to use it as a battering ram like the BULLY you are, but you
can
never place it in an entire context (ignorance of the context) because you
have ADD that doesn't let you get to a FULL understanding of the subject.

I have yet to find a way to gently drop the load of crap you've
produced back on your head, with the facts, krp.
But I'll try.

FILIBUSTER ALERT:

Bowlby supports the concept of innate fear of strangers. The facts
have been posted, with the link.

No Kane he REALLY said that fear of strangers is a LEARNED behavior.
Read the REST of what he said JACKASS!

Now deny that's what he meant.

Easily! It isn't what he meant at all.

Like here you SPEWED on transpotration in Cuba with NO real knowledge of
the
country at all. You made DOGMATIC claims and attempted to cram them down
my
throat of your VASTLY SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE of Cuba, a place you have NEVER
BEEN TO! But I have.

Claiming one can get from a farmhouse to a taxi isn't spewing, nor
dogmatic. It's a simple statement of fact. Based on the indisputable
one, unless you lied, that you got there, you can get out of there the
same way, and by alternatives.

It's TOTAL HORSE **** KANE! Kane you ninny - IF you could get from the
farmhouse the 45 miles you'd need to go to a Taxi stand in rural Cuba -
you'd NOT need a Taxi! Do you EVER see where that Kanelogic falls all
overitself? I got there by a ride in a church van. Prearranged to drop us
off and pick us up at the end of our stay for 2 weeks. NO chauferring to all
the GRAND internet Cafes 400 miles away in Havana and such.

But it's YOU that keeps screeching your expertise, only to find out
when we actually look, you are right about .01% of the time. Roughly.

According to you.

I've probably overestimated your percentage of correct claims.

99.99% wrong the rest of the time.

According to you. NONE of your LONG search engine snippets REALLY
support your side of the issue - that "FEAR" is "INNATE" in children. You
ahve TRIED to use Bowlby's "Fear of Strangers" without ANY capacity to
understand what he was saying.

He didn't say, "fear of strangers." The quote was, INNATE, the claim
you say is not only false but that he refuted it, as in kicked it in
the ass.

Yes Kane - in reality Bowlby said that "fear" is LEARNED. YOU mix up
what he said about ATTACHMENT (witch IS innate) with FEAR you damn BOOB!

Did you really mean that a kick in the ass was an assertion that fear
IS innate, as is fear of strangers, as he was quoted as saying?

No Kane he said ATTACHMENT ios innate NOT fear! Mr. DYSLEXIA.

He was NOT saying that fear is innate in children but he goes on in
DETAIL to describe WHY a child exhibits fear. YOU
never seem to get to that part.

I can't get it if I can't see it. I've not seen it. I've read him. He
does not ever refute his own quote that, fear of strangers is innate.

Then have somebody who CAN understand it explain it to you. You have a
SEVERE ADD problem.

FILIBUSTER:

Now prove me a liar or ignorant on this matter and produce his words.

Not your words, not your claims, endless spouted in repetative
droning, but his words with link to same for verification.

Now are you going to claim expertise in statistical analysis?

YOU WILL!

Well, I aced my two semesters of it in social statistics, but it also
taught me that expertise doesn't come from just reading about it doing
textbook problems.

The real world tested me much much harder. And I don't think I'd have
gotten an A letter grade....but then I didn't F out, like you do.

YOu've provided NO proof for your claim that Bowlby himself kicked the
concept of innate fear of strangers in the ass.

And I know I shouldn't waste electrons asking, but provide proof.

Feel free to supply that contextual wording that changes him appearing
to discuss it as a fact, but in fact meaning it doesn't exist.

FILIBUSTER

ONE MORE KANE FILIBUSTER
"0:-]" wrote in message
...

" krp, we have a adversarial relationship with Cuba. We remember Ilian.
We ARE going to ask custody questions at the consulate, or it's
current standin organization.

STILL can't understand it is ELIAN...........NOT ILIAN.

"Its ELIAIN Kane... YOU are again making a FACT CLAIM that the US
IS going to ask the questions. NO Kane they aren't! Maybe they don't
know that the GREAT KANE demands it?"

Given that you misspelled it above, I presumed you were giving some
license to others, no?

It is ELIAN Kane NOT Ilian! Nice try to smoke your errors again.

Oh for **** sakes you pitiful lump of fat laced dung. YOU said it was
"Its ELIAIN Kane," WITH AND EXTRA LETTER "I"

ELIAN! YOU spell it ILIAN!

I didn't attempt to defend MY prior mispelling.

DOGMATIC mispelling Kane as you CORRECTED me.. "It's Ilian!"

Just that you shared the same fault in a different manner.

No I did a typo you flew in with your arrogance and SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE
and misspellied his name, just as in your arrogance you though Bowlby was a
WOMAN and not a man.

In otherwords, you STUPID ****ING GIT, the issue had NO bearing on
your discussion, unless you think someone would presume we had
switched to talking about ELIAIN Cortex, and the area of Cuba called,
"Iilian."

Uh Kane - - - the original article referenced the SIMILAR case of Elian
Gonzalez. Now "Ilian" is an AREA of Cuba? Pardon me, I thought I knew Cuba
pretty well. Can you tell me WHERE this part of Cuba called "Ilian" might
be? What's it near? How big is it? Does it have a large population? Would
you call it a city or just a town?

And you still got it wrong this time.

In Spanish, in Cuba, it's "Elián," that IS how his name is actually
spelled. Elián González.

Yeah Kane but I don't have a SPANISH keyboard

Your brilliance is beyond belief. You don't NEED a spanish keyboard to
use the character á. YOU HAVE IT ALREADY ON YOUR COMPUTER. Betcha
can't find it.

Symbol keys? Kane only an ANAL RETENTIVE desperate to SHOURD his latest
FILIBUSTER in Bull**** would get to that crap.

There is a master set of characters so Windows can be compatible with
other software.

yes and YOU as the SOLE inventor of the internet can tell me. And I
suppose as the SOLE aithor of Windows. Now I KNOW why ever version of
windows that had come out has been fo fukked up with thousands of BUGS!

It's called "Character MAP" and it takes, when you know which THREE
keys to press in sequence...likely beyond your ability of
coordination, and approximately THREE SECONDS TO DO, and you can
select and copy singly or in groups, all kinds of pretty squigglies:

"åÝá" for a sample.

That's IF you are a pretentious little twit Kane. Meanwhile I'll type in
English, ELIAN GONZALEZ and not PRETEND to be an expert on Cuba or Spanish
like you.

Notice the end character? As in Elián?

What an unutterable stupe you are.

belch

If you want to be a spelling Nazi, Heir krp, on foreign language
names, for **** sake learn how to render that damn characters
correctly. Or stuff your elbow in that gawping piehole of yours, and
shut the **** up.

Oooo Kane the BAD ASS again.

so we don't get the ACCENT symbols.

Well, not unless you want to expend horrendously huge amount of energy
and open that Character Map all Windows OS come with.

WHY should I? WHO am ***I**** tryinz to baffle with bull**** Kane?
That's YUOU filibuster tactic NOT mine!

But HEY go for ther gold here Kane,

I doubt I'd get a Silver for a simple little trick even a stupid pig
could do if he had hands, with fingers.

FILIBUSTER RANT ALERT:

You an amputee?

if you think the lack of accent
symbols are GREATER than a TOTAL mispelling as "Ilian" go for it.

It is when you keep insisting I'm defending my original spelling error
by pointing out that you misspelled it as "Eliain" (see that EXTRA
****IN' "I" YOU LAME ASSHOLE?)

So I went for it. And stuck your nose further UP your ****ty ass by
showing a spelling Nazi that can't ****ING SPELL.

If you are going to go to the trouble to use a dodge, krp, at least do
it with some class and cut to the core of your tool for dodging and
beat the other guy to the facts.

Kane you are a head case. REALLY!

That's the sort of thing you always say when someone has kicked your
stupid ass thoroughly.

Sorry about that character disabling bug on your system.

Oh Kane ---------- sigh What a dork!

The "dork" will lend yah a few, so you don't have to hit, [Start], can
you find it, then cover [All Programs] for highlite and dialogue
window and then [Accessories] [System Tools] then ****ing [Character
Map] and make his pick, click the select, and hit [Save] then copy to
the spot you want it in your mail, post, or doc?

As promised:

áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá
áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá

Let me know when you run out. No charge.

FILIBUSTER RANT CONTINUES:

As to Elián's claimed well being by you, you might want to get more than
one view.
And consider what well being for a child really means, eh?

Hmmm, YOURS DOCTOR KANE? Your EXPERT evaluation of the boy?

I can't find where I made one. I do think that kids thrust into the
spotlight at an early age for the agenda of regimes and ****ants like
you are at some risk of developing difficult to manage character
traits, such as over acting self esteem, and pontificating because
they are sure they are right, without checking facts.

That's the risk for him.

What was it that did it for you, krp?

Of course you can rant that this is U.S. propaganda.
Now you might get a hot welcome in Cuba, with bands a playin' next
time you go, but you will probably get a different reception when you
return. Comprende?

So where is YOUR psychological evaluation of Elian DOCTOR KANE?

Did I offer one?

Tell us
HOW he is all "fukkked up" by being with his father THE SPERM DONOR!
THIS I want to hear! GO FOR IT DOCTOR KANE!!

Eliáááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááán, is at risk. I haven't met him,
I've no data collected by experts to view, so I'd be kind of krplike
if I attempted to do a psychsoc eval. Now if I had time with him,
well...I might take you up on it.

Can you arrange to bring him to the U.S.?

Kane it isn't about me getting a welcome.

It's about you endlessly whoring to this ng on the theory that you can
shotgun for clients by claiming all kinds of stupid things some poor
confused soul will fall for and think you are god's gift to trial
consulting.

It's about the FACT that the boy LOVES his father and his FAMILY!

You are not in his head. He does NOW, more likely than not.
Can you say he would not have come to love his relatives here with the
same largesse lavished on him here, as in Cuba?

Children adapt to their environment Kane. They "ACCOMODATE."

How many little kids do you know that has the ear, personally, of the
president of his country, that is an icon for the political forces
there?

Your point Senator Filibuster?

SOmehting FOREIGN to a CPS WHORE like
you. It's something you cannot understand. It is totally outside your
experience.

Funny, I had a father. I am a father. And none of us do not or did not
while living feel anything but love for our father's. But I'll check
with my kids for yah, if yah like.

This, of course, is what you recently decribed as a wonderful life for
a child, and want for the Girl. She'll come in second to this, I
hope...

What are you babbling about?

See those three little dots....that is called an elipse. Something is
either trailing off that you can make assumptions about ... or it is
pointing to something to follow ...

And by golly, since the next is preceded by THREE MORE DOTS, a leading
elipse, I bet that's what was meant ... to ... follow ...

...Then, aside from a festive seventh birthday party at his school,
Elian was kept out of the public eye in Cuba until this past April. On
the fifth anniversary of the raid in Miami, Elian gave a patriotic
speech in front of the cameras and in the presence of Castro...

And this means ...............................??????

It means you left a stupid supperfluous question squating in **** at
the beginning of this subject...

... and that little kids that are being used for political reasons as
public figures can start to get some strange ideas.

Still suckin' up to Castro?

I can put you in touch with some Little Cuba folks in Miami that would
love to discuss politics with you.

Betchya I know more of them than YOU DO Kane! And we DO - IN FACT
discuss politics. Maybe you'd like to ask them to join in. I don't think
YOU'D like what they say. In point of FACT Kane they KNOW where I am coming
from about Cuba and politics. They KNOW this is NOT about politics with me.
That's because they know where I REALLY stand Kane. Not where a BIRDBRAIN
like YOU thinks I stand. Want to TRY to stir something up Kane like the last
BOOB pal of David Moore's who TRIED????

In fact, doubtless they are on line.

Yes Kane they ARE and they are IN the Cuba newsgroup. Some of them have
been reading your BULL**** with a great deal of amusement for some time now
with all your claimed EXPERTISE on Cuba. They just don't think you are worth
wasting their time on with your propensity to retort with 500 pages of
irrelevant bull**** and repeated claims. Why should they argue with an
arrogant opinionated DUMBASS like you about their homeland when YOU claim to
know VASTLY MORE about their homeland than they do? They can tell as you
SPEW **** in tremendous volume that is totally alien to their life
experience growing up in Cuba. My wife reads your **** and had concluded
that you are "COMPLETELY INSANE."

Would you like to tell them your opinion of
Eliáááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá's mother despritatly to get him to
the US and his return to Cuba by the use of force on our part?

Kane - you understand NOTHING of the heart and soul of the Cuban people.
It is jerks like YOU that give justification to Castro putting fear in the
people of Cuba about American intentions.

Kane my opinion of Elian's mother is quite neutral actually. The fact
remains that it appears she was NOT planning on living in the United States,
but that her "husband/boyfriend" had a little smuggling business going on.
There is "some" evidence that "she" had gone with him on a previous trip.
There is as much evidnce that this was just a trip for her as it was that
she was fleeing. FACTS are that both the mother and the father (Juan Miguel)
were minor public officials prior to the events of her death. That the
father is now a member of the National Assembly, Kane, and that Elian is a
celebrity, he is because CLOWNS LIKE YOU helped make it so. If the legal
system had responded as it SHOULD have, it would have been a NON-EVENT! Just
as this one should be.

I think you should debate. And by golly I've got just the day in mind
to open the lines of communication on your behalf.
Don't know the date yet, but I do know the occasion.

Kane the people KNOW me. They are LEARNING about YOU! There ARE a couple
COmmunist Party members who will side with you against me Kane. THAT should
be interesting.

He's so politically important his father is now a Cuban assemblyman.
Doubtless on merit alone. 0:]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...50_page3.shtml

Fun jawin' witchah, pathetic one.
sheeeeeeee......shake shake shake.

And that means that the child is a basket case Kane?

FILIBUSTER ALERT

Didn't say he was. I do think any child that is thrust into the
spotlight by adults, even mom or dad, at an early age, may be at risk
of character problems

I HATE to bring up Paris Hilton and the poptarts, and boy wonders, and
Donny Boneducci, but gee, you forced me.

NO YOU DON'T it's you THANG!!!

Kane since
neither of us has a current in depth psychological evaluation of Elian,
all
we can do is observe the externals.

Correct. I can't wait for the other shoe to drop.

The affection demonstrated between the
child, his father, his step-mother and his half sibling.

On Cuba soil, being VIDEO TAPED, wonderboy. And folks behind the
Cameras, smiling and scowling by turns.

You do know about how to condition other's reactions, right?

Then we can see
that Elian has many playmates in his neighborhood and is regarded well by
his classmates at his school.

Speak to Marshall about what we see through the eye of the TV camera
on our screens.

We see that people around Elian all seem to like him, neighbors and such.

I can shoot hundreds of tapes, or fill up CDs now, with recordings of
my dog doing tricks. When he gets the RIGHT, and by cutting and moving
various image strings, I can get one that will make him look better
than Lassie, Rin Tin Tin, and Rusty, Roy's dog all rolled into one.

You honestly believe that a politically produced video is superior to
a psych eval recording under strict testing protocols that one's
professional reputation can ride on, if the testers and witnesses are
found to have jimmied the interview or the resulting tape?

Kane you FORGET - I have FAMILY in Cuba! I am NOT speaking of political
tapes. They have DVD's in Cuba now ya know??

He seemed to have a rather large birthday party at his home.

I want to see him, with no one around, when he buries his beloved dog
at the end of the dogs life.

Kane here's news - *YOU* are not likely to see him alone - NOT with the
Castro government and sure as **** NOT if they get a new government.

Then I might get some idea of the psychological strength and
resiliance and crises handling ability of the person. The boy.

NOT POSSIBLE!

I hardly think giving you a psych eval, or YOU making one, based on
state sponsored taping of his birthday party is anything more than any
other kid's party....if daddy knows how to take out the crying, the
little fights, the disappointment of getting the pair of skates,
rather than the bike he really wanted, and the kitten instead of the
pony.

Did *I* say anything about a STATE SPOPNSORED birthday party or tape?
You DO like to make **** up Kane. I said birthday party, the one I am
referring to was NOT put on TV... Was just one at Elian's home for him and
his playmates.......................

Kane you are an ignorant ASS.

Because I won't presume a child's innerstate and his psychological
development progress from a state sponsored, likely state video
recorded staged birthday party?

FILIBUSTER OFF TO THE RACES WITH HIS STRAW DOG!

Yeah, sure, kpr. Whatever you say.

You are, of course, presenting this as though we are to assume he's
just hunky dory, psychologically speaking, developmental wise, are we
not?

Okay YOU go with the birthday party, I'll go with a being a quite but
supportive observer when it's time to bury his dog.

Not to mention that YOU are the LEADING expert on Cuba. Let's not forget
that. When Fidel in his old age can't remember an event from Cuban history,
he just calls his pal KANE to remind him.

Were you even dimly aware that Juan Miguel Gonzalez was an official in
Cuba BEFORE the events that took the boy to
Miami?

I was dimly aware they were divorced. But ...

Your eminent DIMNESS seems unphased by all the facts you do NOT
know.........

... nope, I don't know his position. Citations please.

Finding an old obscure article? He had some minor office in Cardenas.
Like a city councilman or something like that.

If he was hot stuff all the more reason for Fidel to pull all the
strings available. Was the father still tight with the mother, and
with his child, Eliáááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááán?

They were close Kane he was NOT a "sperm donor" and he actually had the
Cuban equivalent of joint custody.

Were you aware of the mother's position in the Cuban government?

Well, I'm aware she was in such a position of power that she risked
her boy's life and her's to climb into a tiny overcrowded fishing boat
to try and escape. Ten people including her did die.

Yes were you aware that it is likely she made a previous trip with her
boyfriend smuggling people to Florida in that fishing boat? In your
EXPERTISE as a mariner Kane, WHY did the boat sink?????

But I can't see that as anything but negative reinforcement for
Fidel's folks to use him to refute the MOTHER in grand political
style. And they wouldn't even have to mention her name.
So, what was her position?

Some sort of town clerk.

Do you have a CLUE as to the real intentions of his mother? Has anyone
told you
that smuggling people to the U.S. was a business of her new husband
(boyfriend)? That he had taken people before? Several times?

Can you make a cogent connection to a claim...and make your claim
appaerent before you do?

Kane it is always IN CONTEXT where your bull**** falls apart.

That the return to Cuba might have less than the wondeful outcome you
claimed? Well, I've made no concrete claims at all, other than common
knowledge that to much fame, especially if not earned, and being used
by adults for their own ends, has a bit of risk for the child in it.

Pigs MIGHT learn to fly too. We try to deal with what DID happen Kane.

Where your
arrogance runs away with your ADD. It's what you DON'T know that trips you
up.

FILIBUSTER ALERT

Well if I had claimed that the boy's parents were married, much in
love, she came on a cruise ship 200 yards long, in a stateroom, and
with the blessings of Fidel, I'd be pushing credulity.

On the other hand, to attempt to assing a pack of YOUR lies to my
actual comments and speculations has **** all OVER your credibility.

But that's krp for yah.

k, do you think a child, this one, after he was rescued at sea on
having spent two days alone in shark-infested waters was competent to
hold out against adults from either side and make an informed and
independent decision and announce it to the public about who he loved
and who he didn't?

At what point had he been long enough in a "neutral" setting that your
claim you would require, to be indepent of influences, and
sufficiently healed from PTSD (24 hours ALONE floating on an innertube
in shark infested ocean?) to make such a choice and have it be in his
own interest, even if he know all the ramifications of 'best
interest?'

You couldn't have done that yoursel. In fact, you can't NOW. You
constantly make bad decisions and increase the crowd of folks that
both hold you in contempt, and are digusted by you, and here and there
hate you and have good reason.

And YOU want to claim the this boy made an independent decision?

From his own interview in Cuba in later years, about the time, he may
well have witnessed his mother's final moments struggling for a hold
on that single innertube, or she won, put him on it, and let go so he
would have a better chance.

That can do things to people's heads, little man. Especially children.

What do you think of this admittedly by the author, speculative paper
on the issues for Elian?

http://www.rossinst.com/elian_gonzalez.htm

BULL**** to follow:

FILIBUSTER ALERT!!!!

ELIAN GONZALEZ PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE
Colin A. Ross, M.D.
7/17/00


The following psychological profile is based on public domain
information available through television and newspapers. Ordinarily, a
psychiatrist cannot comment on the mental state of a person without
examining the individual. I am constructing a psychological profile of
Elian Gonzalez based on the structure and known facts of the
situation. I will describe the conflicts and mental state I would
expect to see in a 6-year old boy exposed to the extreme experiences
undergone by Elian Gonzalez.

Known Facts

Elian's mother and father were divorced and he was living with his
mother before he left Cuba by boat on November 22, 1999. The boat
capsized on November 23, and his mother drowned. Elian was rescued at
sea on November 25, having spent two days alone in shark-infested
waters. He then lived with relatives in Miami until he was seized by
the INS in an early morning raid on April 22, 2000. Elian's father
came to the U.S. from Cuba prior to the seizure.

During the INS raid, Elian was extracted from his relatives' home at
gunpoint. He returned to Cuba with his father on June 28.

Likelihood of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder

The odds that Elian Gonzalez has posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
are very high. According to the American Psychiatric Association's
official diagnostic manual, DSM-IV, the traumatic event causing PTSD
must meet the following criteria:

(1) the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with
an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious
injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others

(2) the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness,
or horror.

Who would dispute that Elian meets these criteria?

If Elian Gonzalez does have PTSD, in theory it could have been present
prior to his leaving Cuba, but prior to his departure there are no
publicly known stressful events sufficient to cause PTSD. The death of
his mother could have caused PTSD by itself. Likewise, both being
alone at sea for two days, and the INS raid could have caused PTSD by
themselves. Add all three experiences together, and you have high odds
but not a certainty of PTSD. If there is a civil lawsuit against the
U.S. government for psychological damages to Elian, a point of
contention will be what proportion of the damages pre-existed Elian's
arrival on U.S. soil, what proportion can be blamed on his Miami
relatives, what proportion can be blamed on the INS raid, and what
proportion was caused by events subsequent to the raid.

Loyalty Conflict With His Parents

The divorce of his parents placed Elian in an unavoidable loyalty
conflict. He was living with his mother, which would foster a primary
identification with her. But he did not forget his father. Therefore
there was a torn allegiance. How conflicted, unhealthy and painful the
loyalty conflict became for Elian depended on how his parents handled
the situation. However, zero conflict was not an option.

The mother's decision to leave Cuba is presumptive evidence that there
was considerable conflict and disagreement between Elian's parents.

Structurally, as soon as they left Cuba, a set-up was in place. Cuba,
Castro and Elian's father were consolidated together in his mind as
bad. The United States, freedom and his mother were consolidated
together as good. His good mother was heroically rescuing him from the
bad Castro, Cuba and father. All was well. Except that Elian also
loved his father. So there was conflict inside Elian, which he
probably could not express to his mother, maybe not even to himself.
He had to repudiate the father he loved and missed.

Then his mother drowned. Now he was alone with no parents. Literally
alone, in shark-infested waters. Until he was rescued by a
Cuban-American fisherman from the Good America. Now everything was OK
again because he was in the Good America with his Miami relatives.
They may have fostered the Cuba-U.S, split and the good mother-bad
father split through their words and actions. The only place he was
safe and loved was in Miami with his relatives. His bad father was far
way in bad Cuba.

This black and white thinking, called dichotomized thinking in the
professional literature, is absolutely normal for a 6-year old child.
Six-year old children do not think or feel in abstract, adult
categories with subtle shades of gray. They do not grasp the
complexities of U.S. immigration law or geopolitics.

But then everything was flipped backwards. Dad arrived, and loved his
son, and wanted to take him back to Cuba, his real home. His real dad.
The INS raid proved two contradictory things: his Miami relatives were
so bad, so criminal, that he had to be rescued from them at gunpoint;
and, the U.S. was so bad it raided his beloved relatives' home with
assault weapons.

In the midst of this terror, the contradiction could not be resolved.
It cannot be, without good long term therapy, a stable home, and
consistent love. Elian Gonzalez is at very high risk for complicated
bereavement. He will have great trouble mourning his mother's death.
Is she the bad mom who stole him from Cuba and his loving father? Or
the heroic good mom who gave her life that he might be free? And what
is "freedom" to a six-year old anyway?

Should Elian be angry at his mom for initiating the departure from
Cuba, getting herself killed, and causing the INS raid? Or should he
be full of loss, sadness and grief? The answer? He will feel both. But
feeling both will be intolerable.

Should he be angry at his dad for driving his mom out of Cuba, causing
the divorce, and not protecting and saving his mom while she was at
sea? Or should he thank his father for being there after his mother
needlessly threw her life way? Again, he will feel both, and feeling
both will be intolerable.

Without help, Elian will be at high risk for suppressing one half of
the conflict. If he had stayed in the U.S. with his Miami relatives,
Cuba, Castro and his father would have been bad. He would have been
able to mourn the loss of the good mom and vent his anger at the bad
dad. He would not have been able to mourn the loss of daily contact
with his beloved father, nor vent his anger at his mother.

Inversely, since his return to Cuba, he will be able to vent his anger
at the bad mother, United States and Miami relatives, but will have
trouble with his grief about his mother and will not be able to vent
his anger at the bad Cuba, Castro and father who drove his mother into
the sea.

How all of this is worked out will depend on how it is handled by the
adults around him. What I am describing are the internal conflicts
which arise from the structure of the situation. They are not
assessments of the adults. No matter how kind and thoughtful his
father and his Miami relatives are, the structural conflict is
present, is deeply painful, and will not go away easily.

Potential For Mind Control of Elian Gonzalez

Because of the internal conflicts described above, Elian is an
excellent candidate for mind control. In Cuba, the task of a doctor
assigned to brainwash him would be to consolidate his identification
with the good Cuba, good Castro and good father. This would be
reinforced by information control, indoctrination, and privileges and
financial rewards for him and his father. The identification with good
mother, good Miami relatives and the good United States would be
suppressed. The terror of the INS raid would make this task easy.

Communist mind control techniques are described in Edward Hunter's
1951 book, Brainwashing In Red China. The procedure is also called
thought reform, and was used on a massive scale in China in the
1950's. Today, early in the twenty-first century, Castro is funded
directly by the Communist Chinese.

The United States would be defined by the mind control doctors as a
terrorist state. The way to undo the victimization Elian experienced
by the U.S. terrorist state at age six would be to take the inverse
position: to become the terrorist. Elian is highly susceptible for
recruitment and training as a terrorist or an anti-U.S. ideologist and
propagandist.

For the mind control doctor, the problem of his primary identification
with the good mother and the good U.S. would remain. If Elian ever
flipped over to this opposite set of identifications, he could become
a major liability for Cuba and world Communism. A sophisticated mind
control program would solve this problem by reinforcing the
dissociation between the good Cuba and bad U.S. in Elian's mind. The
dissociated set of counter-identifications with mother and the U.S.
would then be conditioned and indoctrinated separately. As soon as
Elian identified with his good mother and the good U.S., he would be
reminded of the INS raid. The good United States betrayed him. His
mother was wrong.

The identification of good mother with good United States would be
split in half. Then allegiance to the mother would be based on
understanding that she too was betrayed and tricked by
U.S.-sympathizing propagandists into leaving Cuba. They promised her
freedom but delivered death. Elian saw the same forces of death during
the INS raid. He knows.

The divided allegiance to mother and dad would then be united in the
defiance of the United States. The conflict would be resolved. Cuba
and world communism would get full allegiance. There would be total
loyalty and total control. Elian Gonzalez would become the poster boy
for world Communism, living proof of the treachery of the United
States.

Two opposing images a 1) Elian Gonzalez being extracted from his
relatives' home at gunpoint, and 2) the Chinese student standing in
front of a tank in Tienamen Square. The INS raid would be proof,
within Chinese propaganda, of U.S. violation of human rights.

In reality, the INS raid was not a considered decision of the American
people, and must have been vigorously opposed by many advisors in
government. It was a major trauma for Elian Gonzalez, his father, and
his Miami relatives. But a six-year old boy cannot grasp such facts.
His mind works in black-and-white, dichotomized thinking.

Elian Gonzalez needs good therapy and a stable home. How do I know
that, never having met him? Because he is a human being. The
psychological profile I have just drawn is the normal reaction of any
six-year old to the trauma Elian Gonzalez has experienced. In
professional language, the trauma he has experienced is categorized as
catastrophic.

The question is not, what is Elian Gonzalez's mental state today? The
question is, what will it be twenty years from now?
[Return to Home Page]
Copyright ©1996-2006 by the Colin A. Ross Institute. All Rights
Reserved.

Colin A. Ross Institute. All Rights Reserved.

Even an MD can be largely FULL OF ****!

If you wanna really tick off Kane, refer to a respected
academic journal that he can't GOOGLE!

On Jul 26, 11:33 pm, Greegor wrote:
If you wanna really tick off Kane, refer to a respected
academic journal that he can't GOOGLE!

Really? I didn't think my response to those that try that was "ticked
off."

I simply pointed out that it's not very ethical to carry on a debate
in a medium, where if you are asked for support for your claims, by
way of authority, you cannot provide a link that allows the claimed
proofs to be examined by any reader, quickly and easily.

I think it's shoddy to try to force you opponent to give up because of
using a source it would take days and travel for them to check up on
your proof.

Do you think we should debate this way?

If I pull-quoted my source, then when you asked to see the context I
told you it's available at a university library only, would you
consider that I had debated honestly in good faith?

Or that I was looking, as krp does, for you to give up the issue and
accept my statement on faith?

Nice jawinwitcha, Greg.

"Greegor" wrote in message
oups.com...

If you wanna really tick off Kane, refer to a respected
academic journal that he can't GOOGLE!

Or his new fav - - LEXIS NEXUS!

"0:-" wrote in message
ups.com...


If you wanna really tick off Kane, refer to a respected
academic journal that he can't GOOGLE!

Really? I didn't think my response to those that try that was "ticked
off."

I simply pointed out that it's not very ethical to carry on a debate
in a medium, where if you are asked for support for your claims, by
way of authority, you cannot provide a link that allows the claimed
proofs to be examined by any reader, quickly and easily.

Kane you delude yourself into the belief that if you post a BIBLIOGRAPHY
where 90% of the citations are not even remotely relevant to the topic at
hand that you are SUPPORTING your idiotic claims. The string citing should
at least deal with the subject at hand. THEN we can get to the FACT that
your original article does NOT support YOUR CLAIM. That ALL children
INNATELY have "FEAR." You try to use an article on "attachment" to support
your FEAR concepts which are WRONG! If you actually HAD read the article
you offered you'd have seen that Bowlby (MAN not a WOMAN) concluded that
fear was a "LEARNED RESPONSE" and NOT INNATE in the child. But why allow HIM
to speak with authority when we have THE GREAT KANE who knows VASTLY MORE!