OT - Use of Native American images/names as mascots. Opinions?

Hi all,

I saw this in the news:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?cnn=yes

Here's the tiny URL version:
http://tinyurl.com/b7rdo

I have a special interest in this because I went to a college that used
a Native American term as it's mascot: Knox College in Galesburg, IL.
Our mascot was "Old Siwash".

As it turns out, "Siwash" is a derogatory term for a northwestern
native american tribe, more akin to a term like "injun" or "wetback" or
even "******" - though none of us knew that at the time.

Several years ago, Knox made the decision to quit using Siwash -
students weren't prohibited from using it, but it's not being printed
anymore on the sport teams's uniforms or on literature or brochures,
etc. It's actively being discourage, without banning it's use. I
suspect that it'll die out eventually.

Now, in this particular case, I think abandoning Siwash was the right
decision. It *is* a deragory term. However in most cases, where
Native Americans are used as mascots, it seems silly to abandon that
symbol. For one thing wouldn't it be a tribute of sorts? It's saying
"these guys are such badasses, that we want them to represent us!"

And I do kinda think that forcing FSU to quit using "Seminoles" as
their mascot seems overkill - Politically correctness gone overboard.

But... I'm not native American. Not one drop of Indian blood in me. I
remember being envious when my classmates would say things like "my
grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee" with a lot of pride.

I guess an analogy would be name a sports team "the Jews" - would I be
insulted? Yeah, probably, though my family has been non-practicing for
3 generations. But, Jews have survived and prospered over thousands of
years - they could reasonably be used as a symbol of strength and
endurance.

I guess I'd be curious to know what other people think about the issue
- I'm sure I haven't though it out fully.

Cathy Weeks

In article .com,
"Cathy Weeks" wrote:

Hi all,

I saw this in the news:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...view/2005/08/0
9/bc.fl.floridast.seminol.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

Here's the tiny URL version:
http://tinyurl.com/b7rdo

I have a special interest in this because I went to a college that used
a Native American term as it's mascot: Knox College in Galesburg, IL.
Our mascot was "Old Siwash".

As it turns out, "Siwash" is a derogatory term for a northwestern
native american tribe, more akin to a term like "injun" or "wetback" or
even "******" - though none of us knew that at the time.

Several years ago, Knox made the decision to quit using Siwash -
students weren't prohibited from using it, but it's not being printed
anymore on the sport teams's uniforms or on literature or brochures,
etc. It's actively being discourage, without banning it's use. I
suspect that it'll die out eventually.

Now, in this particular case, I think abandoning Siwash was the right
decision. It *is* a deragory term. However in most cases, where
Native Americans are used as mascots, it seems silly to abandon that
symbol. For one thing wouldn't it be a tribute of sorts? It's saying
"these guys are such badasses, that we want them to represent us!"

And I do kinda think that forcing FSU to quit using "Seminoles" as
their mascot seems overkill - Politically correctness gone overboard.

But... I'm not native American. Not one drop of Indian blood in me. I
remember being envious when my classmates would say things like "my
grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee" with a lot of pride.

I guess an analogy would be name a sports team "the Jews" - would I be
insulted? Yeah, probably, though my family has been non-practicing for
3 generations. But, Jews have survived and prospered over thousands of
years - they could reasonably be used as a symbol of strength and
endurance.

I guess I'd be curious to know what other people think about the issue
- I'm sure I haven't though it out fully.

Cathy Weeks


I'll respond as a Native American who HAS thought about this issue.

I think the vast majority of the time the use ought to be dropped. Many
of them ARE insulting (Braves, Chiefs -- if you grow up NA, you know
that those are words that are used to insult your brothers).

The ones that aren't outright insulting, often go with insulting
pictures and/or traditions. I find the fake "war paint" that some fans
use offensive, for example.

And, as you say, there are no other sports teams/mascots that I can
think of that are named for an ethnic or cultural group. We don't have
the Finlanders or the Swedes or the English. The only one I can think
of that comes close is the Vikings, and they're named after a group that
no longer exists (though their descendents do -- as far as I know there
are no living people that call themselves Vikings).

As I think through the names of various teams and mascots, most are
animals, and fierce ones.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

dragonlady wrote:
(snip)

And, as you say, there are no other sports teams/mascots that I can
think of that are named for an ethnic or cultural group. We don't have
the Finlanders or the Swedes or the English.

The Fighting Irish.

B/t/w, I agree with you re. this topic.

Caledonia

Cathy Weeks wrote:


I guess an analogy would be name a sports team "the Jews" - would I be
insulted? Yeah, probably, though my family has been non-practicing for
3 generations. But, Jews have survived and prospered over thousands of
years - they could reasonably be used as a symbol of strength and
endurance.

Whereas I'd think a school mascot called "The Catholics" would be
hysterical!


And then there's the Fighting Irish. I wonder if the NCAA is going to
ban them? That would be interesting!!! (which is odd to begin with
since that Uni was established by French priests, no Irish in sight!)

cjra96 wrote:
Cathy Weeks wrote:


I guess an analogy would be name a sports team "the Jews" - would I be
insulted? Yeah, probably, though my family has been non-practicing for
3 generations. But, Jews have survived and prospered over thousands of
years - they could reasonably be used as a symbol of strength and
endurance.

Whereas I'd think a school mascot called "The Catholics" would be
hysterical!

Oh, and "The Mexicans" would be ok too, but I doubt anyone would want
to use it in this country....

dragonlady wrote:

I think the vast majority of the time the use ought to be dropped. Many
of them ARE insulting (Braves, Chiefs -- if you grow up NA, you know
that those are words that are used to insult your brothers).

I guess I'm not sure if I agree with this - I've NEVER heard the terms
Braves or Chiefs used to insult anyone. Redskins, yes, but Brave?
When I was a kid - and kids were playing cowboys and indians - the boys
all wanted to be the indians!

The ones that aren't outright insulting, often go with insulting
pictures and/or traditions. I find the fake "war paint" that some fans
use offensive, for example.

Certainly - because that crosses the line into ridiculous - almost
mockery. In part because warpaint was something deadly serious, and a
game is well, just a game (though there are fans who take it a bit too
seriously!) It also seems like it's picked up in use after the movie
Braveheart came out- which had no Native Americans in it at all. ;-)

And, as you say, there are no other sports teams/mascots that I can
think of that are named for an ethnic or cultural group. We don't have
the Finlanders or the Swedes or the English. The only one I can think
of that comes close is the Vikings, and they're named after a group that
no longer exists (though their descendents do -- as far as I know there
are no living people that call themselves Vikings).

laugh when I asked my husband what he thought - he said, "Well,
there's no team called 'the Northern European Mongrels' (which is what
his background is), so I don't know how I'd feel about it". There is
the "Fighting Irish" but it seems to be the exception, not the rule.
Where I live (Minnesota) there's a LOT of Viking imagery around. I've
never heard of anyone objecting to the use of Vikings as a mascot,
though. But we also don't think of Vikings as being down

As I think through the names of various teams and mascots, most are
animals, and fierce ones.

Yes, my high school was the Fayette Falcons. However, a big high
school nearby is called the "Hickman Kewpies". I kid you not. I always
thought that was a bizarre choice.

Cathy Weeks

In article ,
dragonlady says...

In article .com,
"Cathy Weeks" wrote:

Hi all,

I saw this in the news:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...view/2005/08/0
9/bc.fl.floridast.seminol.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

Here's the tiny URL version:
http://tinyurl.com/b7rdo

I have a special interest in this because I went to a college that used
a Native American term as it's mascot: Knox College in Galesburg, IL.
Our mascot was "Old Siwash".

As it turns out, "Siwash" is a derogatory term for a northwestern
native american tribe, more akin to a term like "injun" or "wetback" or
even "******" - though none of us knew that at the time.

Several years ago, Knox made the decision to quit using Siwash -
students weren't prohibited from using it, but it's not being printed
anymore on the sport teams's uniforms or on literature or brochures,
etc. It's actively being discourage, without banning it's use. I
suspect that it'll die out eventually.

Now, in this particular case, I think abandoning Siwash was the right
decision. It *is* a deragory term. However in most cases, where
Native Americans are used as mascots, it seems silly to abandon that
symbol. For one thing wouldn't it be a tribute of sorts? It's saying
"these guys are such badasses, that we want them to represent us!"

And I do kinda think that forcing FSU to quit using "Seminoles" as
their mascot seems overkill - Politically correctness gone overboard.

But... I'm not native American. Not one drop of Indian blood in me. I
remember being envious when my classmates would say things like "my
grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee" with a lot of pride.

I guess an analogy would be name a sports team "the Jews" - would I be
insulted? Yeah, probably, though my family has been non-practicing for
3 generations. But, Jews have survived and prospered over thousands of
years - they could reasonably be used as a symbol of strength and
endurance.

I guess I'd be curious to know what other people think about the issue
- I'm sure I haven't though it out fully.

Cathy Weeks


I'll respond as a Native American who HAS thought about this issue.

I think the vast majority of the time the use ought to be dropped. Many
of them ARE insulting (Braves, Chiefs -- if you grow up NA, you know
that those are words that are used to insult your brothers).

The ones that aren't outright insulting, often go with insulting
pictures and/or traditions. I find the fake "war paint" that some fans
use offensive, for example.

And, as you say, there are no other sports teams/mascots that I can
think of that are named for an ethnic or cultural group. We don't have
the Finlanders or the Swedes or the English. The only one I can think
of that comes close is the Vikings, and they're named after a group that
no longer exists (though their descendents do -- as far as I know there
are no living people that call themselves Vikings).

But this strikes me as specious. There *are* a lot of Viking/Norseman names.
Does that it refers to ancestors really make such a difference? Can there be a
"New Mexico State Anisazi" and you would think it to be as benign as you
apprently do the Minnesota Vikings?

Banty (when Washington and Dallas play every Thanksgiving, who should be
insulted?)

Cathy Weeks wrote:
dragonlady wrote:

And, as you say, there are no other sports teams/mascots that I can
think of that are named for an ethnic or cultural group. We don't have
the Finlanders or the Swedes or the English. The only one I can think
of that comes close is the Vikings, and they're named after a group that
no longer exists (though their descendents do -- as far as I know there
are no living people that call themselves Vikings).

laugh when I asked my husband what he thought - he said, "Well,
there's no team called 'the Northern European Mongrels' (which is what
his background is), so I don't know how I'd feel about it". There is
the "Fighting Irish" but it seems to be the exception, not the rule.
Where I live (Minnesota) there's a LOT of Viking imagery around. I've
never heard of anyone objecting to the use of Vikings as a mascot,
though. But we also don't think of Vikings as being down

Oops. I hit the send button too soon. I meant to say that no one really
thinks of the Vikings as an oppressed ethnic group, whereas Native
Americans were/are - even if many of them were indeed fierce.

Cathy Weeks

In article .com, Cathy Weeks
says...

dragonlady wrote:

I think the vast majority of the time the use ought to be dropped. Many
of them ARE insulting (Braves, Chiefs -- if you grow up NA, you know
that those are words that are used to insult your brothers).

I guess I'm not sure if I agree with this - I've NEVER heard the terms
Braves or Chiefs used to insult anyone. Redskins, yes, but Brave?
When I was a kid - and kids were playing cowboys and indians - the boys
all wanted to be the indians!

The ones that aren't outright insulting, often go with insulting
pictures and/or traditions. I find the fake "war paint" that some fans
use offensive, for example.

Certainly - because that crosses the line into ridiculous - almost
mockery. In part because warpaint was something deadly serious, and a
game is well, just a game (though there are fans who take it a bit too
seriously!) It also seems like it's picked up in use after the movie
Braveheart came out- which had no Native Americans in it at all. ;-)

And, as you say, there are no other sports teams/mascots that I can
think of that are named for an ethnic or cultural group. We don't have
the Finlanders or the Swedes or the English. The only one I can think
of that comes close is the Vikings, and they're named after a group that
no longer exists (though their descendents do -- as far as I know there
are no living people that call themselves Vikings).

laugh when I asked my husband what he thought - he said, "Well,
there's no team called 'the Northern European Mongrels' (which is what
his background is), so I don't know how I'd feel about it". There is
the "Fighting Irish" but it seems to be the exception, not the rule.
Where I live (Minnesota) there's a LOT of Viking imagery around. I've
never heard of anyone objecting to the use of Vikings as a mascot,
though. But we also don't think of Vikings as being down

As I think through the names of various teams and mascots, most are
animals, and fierce ones.

Yes, my high school was the Fayette Falcons. However, a big high
school nearby is called the "Hickman Kewpies". I kid you not. I always
thought that was a bizarre choice.


Beats being the University of California at Santa Cruz Banana Slugs, though.

Banty

Cathy Weeks wrote:
As I think through the names of various teams and mascots, most are
animals, and fierce ones.

Yes, my high school was the Fayette Falcons. However, a big high
school nearby is called the "Hickman Kewpies". I kid you not. I always
thought that was a bizarre choice.

Let's see.....my HS had The Lancers. I guess that's ok, no Lancers
around to take offense to a bunch of Catholic kids playing football
using that name.

College - Gauchos. Surely the S. American Cowboys should be offended
at its use?

Grad school - hmmm, Yale, I have no clue what they're called
Grad school - Notre Dame, FIghting Irish, totally offensive given Irish
stereotypes, but most Irish-descendant Americans love the name.

I wish I'd gone to UC Santa Cruz so I could be the "Banana Slugs."


Seriously, I'm one of the most PC people around, but I have a hard time
understanding why a mascot such as The Seminoles would be offensive? I
always presumed it was a way to pay homage to the native tribes of the
local area.