Friendship problem for my 9 year old

In article . com, Vickie
says...

On Jun 1, 10:38 am, NL wrote:
I have to agree with Jeff. There's very little you really can do.
You might want to also talk to the childrens teacher and see what advice
s/he has to offer, and maybe the teacher can then either talk to the
mother and suggest to her she get help or call the child protection
services or whatever they're called where you are.
If I was you I'd be very careful to not upset that family even further,
the husband is clearly violent and personally I would be scared that he
might come to my house if I seemed responsible if some government agency
stepped in.

I agree that the girl does seem to be testing your daughters friendship,
but that doesn't help you or your child, and as Jeff said, it's not your
job to provide councelling.

take care
nicole

I think the husband is going to prison for a few years. School is
almost out. Don't know if I want to burden her teacher with this.
Thanks for your reply.
And I will keep telling myself, ultimately this is not my
responsibility......right?

Your responsibility is to your daughter.

Banty

On Jun 1, 3:59 pm, Banty wrote:
In article WzZ7i.19$My4.3@trndny05, Jeff says...





Vickie wrote:
On Jun 1, 10:38 am, NL wrote:
I have to agree with Jeff. There's very little you really can do.
You might want to also talk to the childrens teacher and see what advice
s/he has to offer, and maybe the teacher can then either talk to the
mother and suggest to her she get help or call the child protection
services or whatever they're called where you are.
If I was you I'd be very careful to not upset that family even further,
the husband is clearly violent and personally I would be scared that he
might come to my house if I seemed responsible if some government agency
stepped in.

I agree that the girl does seem to be testing your daughters friendship,
but that doesn't help you or your child, and as Jeff said, it's not your
job to provide councelling.

take care
nicole

I think the husband is going to prison for a few years. School is
almost out. Don't know if I want to burden her teacher with this.
Thanks for your reply.
And I will keep telling myself, ultimately this is not my
responsibility......right?

Vickie

I thought it took a community to raise a child. You're part of the
community, right?

Sure - but some things are messed up beyond one's ability to help. But most of
all, some things are just poison. To the community.

Story: We had a very troubled boy on our long-ish circle street. A family a
few doors down from us decided they'd do the community thing and let this boy
come around and play with their kids as no one else would play with him. The
boy's family took a hands-off stance, and the father even showed some pride that
his boy was a tough kid.

Results: This boy, although older than most of the other kids (including the
boys in this family), hung around in our area. Among other things, he would
pick up things and swing them at the younger children, injuring them.

Then there was the incident where he invited my immediate neighbor's older boy
to perform fellatio.

And the response to this was to alert the kid's parents/guardians and
the authorities, right?

Nonetheless, the family down the block continued letting the boy come around to
play with theirs to try to help.

For two summers, several families, including mine, needed to make plans, every
day, not to have our kids be outside playing. Which is really a shame, since we
had bought houses in a family neighborhood in order to let kids play together
like how we grew up.

Why it didn't go to a third summer: This boy became acquainted with some older
boys from another neighborhood, and he led them to rob the neighbor of the
family in question. Told them when they would go on vacation; told them the
location in the home of certain items.

Then the family in question decided he was not suitable to be in their home, and
that they could not help him. So finally, he stopped coming around and hanging
out in our area.

Why this is no longer a problem at all: This troubled boy, at age 19, committed
suicide. How? By a head on collision about three miles from here with a family
who was driving home from the hospital with their newborn baby.

OK??? You understand now what kind of things people can be dealing with when
they decide they're "part of a village" and get in over their heads?

I'm missing the part where people (guidance counselors, adjustment
counselors, DSS, whathaveyou) were contacted regarding this boy.

I realize I'm sounding like 'The Mean Heartless Mom,' and I apologize
-- but seriously, this sounds like the neighborhood wrote off a kid as
'The Bad Seed" (excluding one family, which had a rescue complex), and
everyone acquiesced to being somewhat passively bullied by this kid
and Hoping This Would All Go Away. It sounds like an awful experience
for all involved -- but I didn't read Jeff's response as implying that
Vickie should rescue this girl, but rather, should alert someone who
may be in a position to help. On this one, having BTDT, I'm in Jeff's
camp.

Maybe we're not dealing with a sociopath in this case, but Vickie's daughter has
already needed to take some precious growing-up time getting over problems
caused by this girl. Some things can't be helped, some things can only be
helped by the right people (professionals!), some things can be helped only at
great unrecoverable cost to one's own family.

Again, I second Jeff -- call a professional. (Frankly, alert the
school professional(s) if your kid is being regularly taunted by
another kid, which presumably the OP has already done a long time
ago...)

I think this is one of those cases. Or is likely enough to be, to make it
advisable to stay detached from it.

I'm with you on staying detached, but walking away without doing
anything is quite different than being detached. Are you advocating
that the OP pretend that she knows nothing, or that she severs any
personal ties and alerts folks who may be able to provide assistance?

Caledonia

Caledonia

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:26:00 -0700, Vickie wrote:


So, here I am. I really, really don't want to get involved anymore in
this. My heart goes out to her and her children, but I really don't
want to deal with this. When the calls come this summer for play
dates, etc. should I keep up with the excuses or get a back-bone and
just tell her when she gets her life back on track and help for her
girls to then give me a call?


I agree with those who say your resposibility is to your child. I wouldn't
help another child at my own child's expense. The other child's family
life is not safe for your child and the other child is not friendly to your
child. So no, I wouldn't want to support that friendship.

In article .com, Caledonia
says...

On Jun 1, 3:59 pm, Banty wrote:
In article WzZ7i.19$My4.3@trndny05, Jeff says...





Vickie wrote:
On Jun 1, 10:38 am, NL wrote:
I have to agree with Jeff. There's very little you really can do.
You might want to also talk to the childrens teacher and see what advice
s/he has to offer, and maybe the teacher can then either talk to the
mother and suggest to her she get help or call the child protection
services or whatever they're called where you are.
If I was you I'd be very careful to not upset that family even further,
the husband is clearly violent and personally I would be scared that he
might come to my house if I seemed responsible if some government agency
stepped in.

I agree that the girl does seem to be testing your daughters friendship,
but that doesn't help you or your child, and as Jeff said, it's not your
job to provide councelling.

take care
nicole

I think the husband is going to prison for a few years. School is
almost out. Don't know if I want to burden her teacher with this.
Thanks for your reply.
And I will keep telling myself, ultimately this is not my
responsibility......right?

Vickie

I thought it took a community to raise a child. You're part of the
community, right?

Sure - but some things are messed up beyond one's ability to help. But most of
all, some things are just poison. To the community.

Story: We had a very troubled boy on our long-ish circle street. A family a
few doors down from us decided they'd do the community thing and let this boy
come around and play with their kids as no one else would play with him. The
boy's family took a hands-off stance, and the father even showed some pride that
his boy was a tough kid.

Results: This boy, although older than most of the other kids (including the
boys in this family), hung around in our area. Among other things, he would
pick up things and swing them at the younger children, injuring them.

Then there was the incident where he invited my immediate neighbor's older boy
to perform fellatio.

And the response to this was to alert the kid's parents/guardians and
the authorities, right?

Yep. My neighbors didn't press charges, though, but did get it written up in a
police report. The parents dismissed it as exaggerated.


Nonetheless, the family down the block continued letting the boy come around to
play with theirs to try to help.

For two summers, several families, including mine, needed to make plans, every
day, not to have our kids be outside playing. Which is really a shame, since we
had bought houses in a family neighborhood in order to let kids play together
like how we grew up.

Why it didn't go to a third summer: This boy became acquainted with some older
boys from another neighborhood, and he led them to rob the neighbor of the
family in question. Told them when they would go on vacation; told them the
location in the home of certain items.

Then the family in question decided he was not suitable to be in their home, and
that they could not help him. So finally, he stopped coming around and hanging
out in our area.

Why this is no longer a problem at all: This troubled boy, at age 19, committed
suicide. How? By a head on collision about three miles from here with a family
who was driving home from the hospital with their newborn baby.

OK??? You understand now what kind of things people can be dealing with when
they decide they're "part of a village" and get in over their heads?

I'm missing the part where people (guidance counselors, adjustment
counselors, DSS, whathaveyou) were contacted regarding this boy.

As for DSS, it's not an abuse or neglect case as far as I could see. I don't
know what the family in question or the parents ever did as far as guidance
counsellors until much later when he was a teen, when he was referred to
psychiatry from what I heard. The parents (father, especially) weren't
receptive to much information or inputs about their boy. By their accounting,
he was a tough kid, and we were just whiniers He told a neighbor and I we
should just keep our (younger) boys inside if they "couldn't handle it". Well,
eventually that's just exactly what we had to do. :-/


I realize I'm sounding like 'The Mean Heartless Mom,' and I apologize
-- but seriously, this sounds like the neighborhood wrote off a kid as
'The Bad Seed" (excluding one family, which had a rescue complex), and
everyone acquiesced to being somewhat passively bullied by this kid
and Hoping This Would All Go Away. It sounds like an awful experience
for all involved -- but I didn't read Jeff's response as implying that
Vickie should rescue this girl, but rather, should alert someone who
may be in a position to help. On this one, having BTDT, I'm in Jeff's
camp.

This not being abuse or neglect, and the parents complicit, and the boy older
enough to be in a different school, the options were few.


Maybe we're not dealing with a sociopath in this case, but Vickie's daughter has
already needed to take some precious growing-up time getting over problems
caused by this girl. Some things can't be helped, some things can only be
helped by the right people (professionals!), some things can be helped only at
great unrecoverable cost to one's own family.

Again, I second Jeff -- call a professional. (Frankly, alert the
school professional(s) if your kid is being regularly taunted by
another kid, which presumably the OP has already done a long time
ago...)

I think this is one of those cases. Or is likely enough to be, to make it
advisable to stay detached from it.

I'm with you on staying detached, but walking away without doing
anything is quite different than being detached. Are you advocating
that the OP pretend that she knows nothing, or that she severs any
personal ties and alerts folks who may be able to provide assistance?

The latter. She might have cause to call DSS (were the authorities involved
after the family violence incident?), and she certainly should talk with the
teachers and school authorities.

But understand, she (or I or my neighbors) can't MAKE a troubled child get
professional help without cooperation of the parent(s).

And getting back to the original question, I don't think there is any moral
obligation at all, quite the opposite, to have our own children be therapy for
troubled children who are distressing them.

Banty

On Jun 1, 4:40 pm, toypup wrote:
On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:26:00 -0700, Vickie wrote:
So, here I am. I really, really don't want to get involved anymore in
this. My heart goes out to her and her children, but I really don't
want to deal with this. When the calls come this summer for play
dates, etc. should I keep up with the excuses or get a back-bone and
just tell her when she gets her life back on track and help for her
girls to then give me a call?

I agree with those who say your resposibility is to your child. I wouldn't
help another child at my own child's expense. The other child's family
life is not safe for your child and the other child is not friendly to your
child. So no, I wouldn't want to support that friendship.

From most of you, it seems the response is either cut ties, or notify
teacher or child services, etc.

I keep thinking of the few times I had let my daughter visit at her
home, where, from some unknown instinct, I stayed.

My husband is all for the DO NOT HELP stand point. I just feel
terrible for the girls. Especially for the youngest. The mom told me
that while her husband was beating her, she was screaming for her
daughter to help her and to call 911. She said when she had a moment
to escape her ex she went looking for her and found her locked in the
garage. Then the ex started at the mom again and the girl ran to the
backyard trying to climb the fence.

I really don't think the mom is considering the girls at all. And
maybe she can't/shouldn't. Maybe she is so screwed up herself and out
of it from the abuse that she can't help them and needs someone else
to step in.

I know this mom's parents are around, there must be some reason why
they can't step in and keep the girl's with them.

I think I am leaning toward my husband's view point. I am no
therapist and with the distance my daughter and her daughter had for
almost all of this school year, I think I should stay out of it.

But, then again she did just call me. Dammit this sucks. Whatever
the case though, I will not be involving my daughter to play with her,
not to be mean or anything, just go her own way.

Vickie

"Vickie" wrote in message
ps.com...
But, then again she did just call me. Dammit this sucks. Whatever
the case though, I will not be involving my daughter to play with her,
not to be mean or anything, just go her own way.


Perhaps the best help you can give her at this time, and I mean the mother,
is to give her the contact information for the local women's crisis shelter
and encourage her to get out of there before she can't. If she has excuses
like she has no way to support the kids, tell her there is welfare for the
time being, and crisis centers often have other methods of helping abused
people get back on their feet financially. Money should not be holding her
back.

-Aula

On Jun 1, 6:17 pm, "Aula" wrote:
"Vickie" wrote in message

ps.com...

But, then again she did just call me. Dammit this sucks. Whatever
the case though, I will not be involving my daughter to play with her,
not to be mean or anything, just go her own way.

Perhaps the best help you can give her at this time, and I mean the mother,
is to give her the contact information for the local women's crisis shelter
and encourage her to get out of there before she can't. If she has excuses
like she has no way to support the kids, tell her there is welfare for the
time being, and crisis centers often have other methods of helping abused
people get back on their feet financially. Money should not be holding her
back.

-Aula

I think the threat of her husband is in the background now, with his
being incarcerated. She has welfare, food stamps, etc. I am pretty
sure she has called someone on her behalf for help. I remember her
saying something about being on a waiting list and going to a group
therapy session for women. I don't want to sound like I don't care at
all about her or her welfare, but I am not a close friend of hers, but
my daughter at one time was friends with hers, so that is where my
mind goes - how are the girls holding up, are they getting the help
they need.

Vickie

Vickie wrote:
On Jun 1, 10:24 am, Jeff wrote:

I think what is going on here is that the girl is testing your daughter.
She is scared that your daughter will back away or stop acting like
her friend. Considering all the stuff she has had to put up with, I
don't blame her. So, basically, she is acting normally for 9-year old
girl who has had a lot of relationship problems with her mom, her dad
and kids at school. You would too if you had all the issues she does.

It's not your job or your daughter's job to provide counseling for
another person's daughter. That is essentially what she is asking you to do.

Part of me is saying that the girl will be in big trouble if someone
doesn't step in and help her. Obviously, the mother is not doing it. You
might be the only one who will be able to help.

Part of me is saying that if you get more involved, you'll only set up
yourself and your daughter for more heartache. And you probably won't
make a difference.

I think I would make a two-part plan. I would call child protective
services or what state or local agency protects kids, and fill them in.
They may be able to step in and help. It's their job, not yours.
Whatever, happens, end of part 1.

And I would get a backbone and say that you're not going to let girl see
your daughter until the girl and her sister (and maybe the mother, too)
get into counseling.

If that happens, I would be expecting a lot of acting out when she gets
to your home. She is going to test her welcome very much. However, once
she knows that she is truly welcome, she may stop acting out so much and
have much better behavior.

Whether you want to cave in and the girl see your daughter if she
doesn't get counseling is up to you to decide later.

These are just my thoughts.

Jeff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I appreciate your thoughts.

Gosh, calling child protective services. I don't know. I almost want
to just pay myself for the girl to go to a therapist, but I don't
think I am strong enough to handle a whole set of someone else's
problems along with my own family dynamic.

You really think calling would be ok? I really don't think the mom
has the mind or money to help her children. She has told me she is on
a waiting list to get counseling, but it was only in regards to her,
not the kids.

I agree with you about what the little girl is projecting, which is
why I tried to hang in as long as I could. It was when it started to
effect my own daughter, who has some issues of her own, that I
couldn't deal anymore.

Do you have experience with this service?

Vickie

The job of child protective services is to stop child abuse and
neglect. Although they may provide counseling services (depending on the
state), it's not their main job.

The reason why I would call child protective services is that the
father's behavior is abusive (whether or not the children were touched
by him).

I guess other options include trying to get the county or state health
or mental health department involved. There may be social agencies that
can help, too.

Banty wrote:

...

And getting back to the original question, I don't think there is any moral
obligation at all, quite the opposite, to have our own children be therapy for
troubled children who are distressing them.

I think that there are competing moral obligations here. Besides the
moral obligation to the child in the troubled family, there is a moral
obligation to be a good role model for your own kids and the moral
obligation to protect and raise your own kids.

The attempt to help the troubled child fulfills any obligation to the
troubled child (notifying the school guidance counselor, etc., either
now or at the start of the following school year is a good idea).

Vickie's also been a good role model. I would suggest that she discuss
the situation with her daughter and explain why her decisions about
attemption to help her friend (either way). I am nearly certain htat she
has done this, but I thought it should be said.

Finally, her primary obligation is to her own kids. She brought them
into the world and is their mother, not the other kid's mother. This is
the overriding obligation. Nonetheless, what Vickie has done for the
troubled girl is admirable.

Jeff

Jeff



Banty

Banty wrote:
In article WzZ7i.19$My4.3@trndny05, Jeff says...
Vickie wrote:
On Jun 1, 10:38 am, NL wrote:
I have to agree with Jeff. There's very little you really can do.
You might want to also talk to the childrens teacher and see what advice
s/he has to offer, and maybe the teacher can then either talk to the
mother and suggest to her she get help or call the child protection
services or whatever they're called where you are.
If I was you I'd be very careful to not upset that family even further,
the husband is clearly violent and personally I would be scared that he
might come to my house if I seemed responsible if some government agency
stepped in.

I agree that the girl does seem to be testing your daughters friendship,
but that doesn't help you or your child, and as Jeff said, it's not your
job to provide councelling.

take care
nicole
I think the husband is going to prison for a few years. School is
almost out. Don't know if I want to burden her teacher with this.
Thanks for your reply.
And I will keep telling myself, ultimately this is not my
responsibility......right?

Vickie
I thought it took a community to raise a child. You're part of the
community, right?


Sure - but some things are messed up beyond one's ability to help. But most of
all, some things are just poison. To the community.

Story: We had a very troubled boy on our long-ish circle street. A family a
few doors down from us decided they'd do the community thing and let this boy
come around and play with their kids as no one else would play with him. The
boy's family took a hands-off stance, and the father even showed some pride that
his boy was a tough kid.

Results: This boy, although older than most of the other kids (including the
boys in this family), hung around in our area. Among other things, he would
pick up things and swing them at the younger children, injuring them.

Then there was the incident where he invited my immediate neighbor's older boy
to perform fellatio.

Nonetheless, the family down the block continued letting the boy come around to
play with theirs to try to help.

For two summers, several families, including mine, needed to make plans, every
day, not to have our kids be outside playing. Which is really a shame, since we
had bought houses in a family neighborhood in order to let kids play together
like how we grew up.

Why it didn't go to a third summer: This boy became acquainted with some older
boys from another neighborhood, and he led them to rob the neighbor of the
family in question. Told them when they would go on vacation; told them the
location in the home of certain items.

Then the family in question decided he was not suitable to be in their home, and
that they could not help him. So finally, he stopped coming around and hanging
out in our area.

Why this is no longer a problem at all: This troubled boy, at age 19, committed
suicide. How? By a head on collision about three miles from here with a family
who was driving home from the hospital with their newborn baby.

OK??? You understand now what kind of things people can be dealing with when
they decide they're "part of a village" and get in over their heads?

Maybe we're not dealing with a sociopath in this case, but Vickie's daughter has
already needed to take some precious growing-up time getting over problems
caused by this girl. Some things can't be helped, some things can only be
helped by the right people (professionals!), some things can be helped only at
great unrecoverable cost to one's own family.

I think this is one of those cases. Or is likely enough to be, to make it
advisable to stay detached from it.

On the other hand, with Vickie's intervention, we might have a future
pediatrician, scientist or CEO on our hands. Some kids are extremely
resilient in cases like this and benefit greatly from proper adult
attention.

Personally, I tend to agree with Banty on this one, though. The
community support that the girl and her mother needs at the moment is in
the form of mental health and social worker support.

Jeff

Banty (it takes a village to poison a village)