If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
The Fluoroquinolone Drugs are the most toxic and dangerous antibiotic in clinical practice today.
"davidtfull" wrote in message ... Antibiotics are not used to treat kidney stones. Sorry. Apperently my urologist was unaware of that. Well since the only thing wrong with me was a kidney stone and I did NOT have prostatitis nor a urinary tract infection, or any bacterial infection whatsoever, why the hell did the urologist keep me on them for two months then? My initial exam showed EVERYTHING to be perfectly normal except for blood in the urine and renal colic. I presented with gross hematuria and severe renal colic on referral from my primary for a suspected kidney stone. The IVP showed an occult stone at the fourth vertebrae but the radiologist missed it, as well as the urologist who also viewed these films. Urinalysis was negative for a bacterial infection including the 24 and 48-hour studies. And throughout this who period all urine was free of any bacteria but full of red blood cells. Prostrate was normal, it was NOT boggy and of normal size. Cysto w/bladder wash was a negative study as well. No infection, no cancer, nothing. There was no frequency, no urgency, no testicular pain, no distension, normal bowel sounds, no bruits, no hepatosplenomegaly, no ulcers or urethral discharge, no evidence of hernia. No bladder infection and no kidney infection. Only gross hematuria that persisted for two months as well as severe renal colic as the stone shredded the lining of the ureter as it made its way down to the bladder. Both ceased after I passed the stone. *** REPLY *** Now you're getting your stories crossed. Earlier, it was the cipro that caused the stone. Now the stone was there but you were treated with cipro... uh huh... Your confusion aside, let's look at your hypothetical case (cause I don't believe you have given more than half the story): Pt presents with renal colic and gross hematuria. 1st thought is a ureteral stone. Negative IVP makes that much less likely. You say it was misread... maybe, but if you had renal colic as a result of a stone there should have been obvious hydronephrosis which is very obvious on IVP. In the absence of fever, elevated WBC count, and infected urine, it's not pyelonehpritis. So let's play along... the antibiotics were given for? Let me get this straight - you, who purpots himself to be educated and at least reasonable educated - is told that you have no evidence or suspicion for any infection and you're then given an antibiotic. Hmmm... did you happen to ask, "Oh, ok... hey doc, what's this for?" I mean, most people know what antibiotics are by middle school if not sooner. Certainly an adult would know. No, that's not what happened. There was more to it.. or less... and we'll never know. The 24 hour urine was for what purpose? To assess what was causing the stones they didn't think you had? LOL... c'mon man. It just doesn't work that way. And a 48 hour urine? I doubt it. As for this business of "shredding the lining of the ureter"... also a myth. Sorry. Not your day, huh? Yeah, the stones seldom cause much ureteral trauma unless they impact. Yours wasn't impacted. How do I know? You said you passed it. You don't pass impacted stones. No, the pain comes from distension of the collecting system secondary to ureteral obstruction. That's why renal stones don't cause pain, only ureteral stones. Maybe you should try "alt.medical.fables" |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
The Fluoroquinolone Drugs are the most toxic and dangerous antibiotic in clinical practice today.
"ciprocripple" wrote in message ... Skeptic wrote: "You're just on some personal vendetta against this particular one for no particularly good reason". ------------------------- Why In the hell would i have a personal vendetta against one particular drug for no particular reason?? WTF is wrong with you? What an idiot! That makes no sense, and neither do your comments. Cipro injured me, or was it just some strange coincidence that my body fell apart within days of finishing my scrip? *** REPLY *** Don't know. John drops dead of a heart attack on the 22nd. On the 21st he had sex for the first time in 8 months. Did that kill him? On the 21st he woke up 2 hours early, didn't feel like sleeping, made breakfast. Did that contribute? On the 18th his friend's cat died. Must that be related, too? Well, you hung in there for a little while. Then your real self came through and you have shown yourself to be incapable of an adult conversation with personal attacks as above with "idiot". Cheers. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
The Fluoroquinolone Drugs are the most toxic and dangerousantibiotic in clinical practice today.
On Mar 5, 9:16*pm, "Skeptic" wrote:
"ciprocripple" wrote in message ... Skeptic wrote: "You're just on some personal vendetta against this particular one for no particularly good reason". ------------------------- Why In the hell would i have a personal vendetta against one particular drug for no particular reason?? WTF is wrong with you? What an idiot! *That makes no sense, and neither do your comments. *Cipro injured me, or was it just some strange coincidence that my body fell apart within days of finishing my scrip? *** REPLY *** Don't know. *John drops dead of a heart attack on the 22nd. *On the 21st he had sex for the first time in 8 months. *Did that kill him? *On the 21st he woke up 2 hours early, didn't feel like sleeping, made breakfast. *Did that contribute? *On the 18th his friend's cat died. *Must that be related, too? Well, you hung in there for a little while. *Then your real self came through and you have shown yourself to be incapable of an adult conversation with personal attacks as above with "idiot". Cheers. Reply - Sorry, idiot was not correct....Moron is more like it. You probably finished last in your class. Urine Dr. huh? No, more like **** Dr. I wonder how many people you've injured with your ignorance and belief that FQ's are the answer to every little infection that comes along? Probably way more than you will ever realize. You see, small minds have a hard time with comprehension. We're done here. No use talking to a brick wall.... brick walls are just too thick. |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
The Fluoroquinolone Drugs are the most toxic and dangerousantibiotic in clinical practice today.
On Mar 5, 10:05*pm, ciprocripple
wrote: On Mar 5, 9:16*pm, "Skeptic" wrote: "ciprocripple" wrote in message ... Skeptic wrote: "You're just on some personal vendetta against this particular one for no particularly good reason". ------------------------- Why In the hell would i have a personal vendetta against one particular drug for no particular reason?? WTF is wrong with you? What an idiot! *That makes no sense, and neither do your comments. *Ciproinjured me, or was it just some strange coincidence that my body fell apart within days of finishing my scrip? *** REPLY *** Don't know. *John drops dead of a heart attack on the 22nd. *On the 21st he had sex for the first time in 8 months. *Did that kill him? *On the 21st he woke up 2 hours early, didn't feel like sleeping, made breakfast. *Did that contribute? *On the 18th his friend's cat died. *Must that be related, too? Well, you hung in there for a little while. *Then your real self came through and you have shown yourself to be incapable of an adult conversation with personal attacks as above with "idiot". Cheers. * * * * Reply - Sorry, idiot was not correct....Moron is more like it. *You probably finished last in your class. * Urine Dr. huh? * No, more like **** Dr. I wonder how many people you've injured with your ignorance and belief that FQ's are the answer to every little infection that comes along? *Probably way more than you will ever realize. *You see, small minds have a hard time with comprehension. We're done here. *No use talking to a brick wall.... brick walls are just too thick.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - It looks like skeptic only speed reads these discussions and skips over far too much. I already told him that I was treated with cipro eight months prior to having this stone for a minor infection. This is when the stone formation began. Eight months later I have sudden onset of gross hematuria. Where does this blood come from? Damage to the uterer as the stone is moving along. But skeptic says this is a myth. Where did this stone come from? Previous exposure to the cipro. Again skeptic says this too is a myth. But when we exam the stone it consist of Cipro. Not once but twice. Again I told him that the urologist told me I had a urinary infection. Stupid me believed him. But I was lied to. Next I was told that I had prostatitis. Again I was lied to. NONE of the testing or exams pointed to that diagnosis. When I was in ER the doctor told me that I had an obstruction. But the urologist insisted it was a severe urinary infection. It was not until I fired this jerk that I found out all the urine test and all cultures were NEGATIVE. Again it was not until I obtained my medical records for the new urologist that I found out that all the testing was negative. I was told that the xrays did not show a kidney stone. But when I fired this incompetent ass and got a real doctor he saw the stone right away. When I told him about all the problems I was having with the cipro, levaquin and floxin, he believed that these were adrs to the quinolones that I should not of even been on to begin with. The NEW urologist said NO bladder infections, NO urinary tract infections, NO prostatitis, simply a kidney stone that the radiologist missed when reviewing the xray as it was an occult stone very hard to see on film. But it showed up when he did more testing such as CT scan, Retroperitoneal Ultrasound, and a KUB. Test the other urologist should have done but didn't. So when a doctor tells you you have a urinary tract infection and prostatitis and need to be on these drugs you believe him. It was not until much later that I found out otherwise. About eight months later I develop another stone. Only this time it is treated properly. When it is examined once again it consist of cipro. This I believe to be from the SECOND exposure to cipro. This was eight years ago. Since that time I have NOT had another stone. So logic dictates that BOTH stones were the result of exposure to cipro since both stones consist of cipro and only formed while taking cipro. Skeptic says bull****. But when we consider the fact that for 45 years prior to this FIRST stone I had never had a kidney stone in my life, and 8 years AFTER the fact I have yet to have another I would have to disagree. When I started to look at my full medical history I find out that a number of times in the past, AFTER taking a quinolone drug, I find that I had all kinds of problems with these drugs that of course the doctors said were not related. When I start researching the safety profile of these drugs I find out that they were mistaken. First exposure in the late eighties when treated for pnuemonia. Heart attack and blown achilles tendon and the whole list of other problems that eventually resolved. . Second exposre to cipro in the early nineties. Frozen knee and frozen shoulder. Third exposure in the late nineties. Blown knee, gastro problems, and the whole list of other problems that persisted. Fourath and fifth expsoure all hell breaks loose. Left with a laundry list of serious problems including cipro kidney stones, rupture of the stomach muscles, shrunken tendons, tendonitis, permanent double vision, peripheral nueropathy, damage to the liver, heart, pancreas and kidneys, etc. This may very well of been the result of not only being on cipro, but also floxin and levaquin at ridiculiously high doses. But again skeptic says bull****. Prior to 2000 I had no idea what a quinolone even was let alone it's side effects. NO doctor had ever warned me about them. So I got curious. The more I read the more I found out how IGNORANT the medical community is regarding these drugs. The result of this eight years of research is posted on the fqresearch.org site. Skeptic I believe hasn't even bothered to log unto the site. He'd much rather nit pick my attempts to explain what has happened to me instead. He is just another ignorant urologist, the same as the one who crippled me for life eight years. He is not a doctor. But a closed minded egotistical jerk. But I find his state of denial fascinating to say the least. Just keep attacking the messenger while completely ignoring the message being presented. Gotta love it. Here I have presented a number of his peers, a couple of college professors, the medical staff of Public Citizen as well as the medical staff of an Attorney General bearing the same message and skeptic still says "bull****". His counter arguments? I have yet to see anything but nit picking. No citations, no clinical studies, no evidence of any kind and certainly not anything written by his peers. Just accusations that I am a loony on a vendetta and perhaps even a fake. If he wants confirmation that I exist and what has happened to me is documented medical fact, all he has to do is go down to the District Court House in Tampa and read Fuller vs. Starling et al. This is all a matter of public record for anyone to read. Every gory detail of the damage I endure as well as the gross medical malpractice by which this took place is contained therein. The results of the meeting with Rush Holt that I attended with a number of other doctors and victims? New warnings for the quinolone class: In 2004 new warning labels added to all of the Fluoroquinolones regarding Peripheral Neuropathy (irreversible nerve damage), Tendon Damage, Heart Problems (prolonged QT Interval / Torsades de pointes), Pseudomembranous colitis, Rhabdomyolysis (muscle wasting), Steven Johnson Syndrome, as well as concurrent usage of NSAIDs contributing to the severity of these reactions. The results of my research? Two petitioins filed with the FDA seeking "Black Box Warnings and Dear Doctor Letters" as well as the additional warnings stated above. What has he accomplished? Keeps handing this stuff out like halloween candy claiming them to be just as safe or even safer than the other drugs at his disposal and nit picking anything I say. So let's decide who is correct here. Him or I. Frankly I think he might just be a fake himself. For someone claiming to be so "educated" why do I see nothing but stupidity? I can fix ignorance. But I cannot fix stupid. And it cannot be considered to be anything but shear stupidity to claim that the quinolone class is a safe antibiotic and safer than any other other antibiotic on the market today. This goes way beyond ignorance. It borders on medical malpractice. But let him have his fun. Apparently he has nothing better to do with his time than argue with me. Researching these drugs is obviously not a priority with him. Thankfully I am not one of his patients. I've have had enough of incompetent medical care to last me a life time. The next time they just might succeed in killing me instead. Maybe that would have been a blessing, as I what I now endure cannot be called living. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
The Fluoroquinolone Drugs are the most toxic and dangerousantibiotic in clinical practice today.
On Mar 6, 7:51*am, davidtfull wrote:
On Mar 5, 10:05*pm, ciprocripple wrote: On Mar 5, 9:16*pm, "Skeptic" wrote: "ciprocripple" wrote in message .... Skeptic wrote: "You're just on some personal vendetta against this particular one for no particularly good reason". ------------------------- Why In the hell would i have a personal vendetta against one particular drug for no particular reason?? WTF is wrong with you? What an idiot! *That makes no sense, and neither do your comments. *Ciproinjured me, or was it just some strange coincidence that my body fell apart within days of finishing my scrip? *** REPLY *** Don't know. *John drops dead of a heart attack on the 22nd. *On the 21st he had sex for the first time in 8 months. *Did that kill him? *On the 21st he woke up 2 hours early, didn't feel like sleeping, made breakfast. *Did that contribute? *On the 18th his friend's cat died. *Must that be related, too? Well, you hung in there for a little while. *Then your real self came through and you have shown yourself to be incapable of an adult conversation with personal attacks as above with "idiot". Cheers. * * * * Reply - Sorry, idiot was not correct....Moron is more like it. *You probably finished last in your class. * Urine Dr. huh? * No, more like **** Dr. I wonder how many people you've injured with your ignorance and belief that FQ's are the answer to every little infection that comes along? *Probably way more than you will ever realize. *You see, small minds have a hard time with comprehension. We're done here. *No use talking to a brick wall.... brick walls are just too thick.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - It looks like skeptic only speed reads these discussions and skips over far too much. I already told him that I was treated with cipro eight months prior to having this stone for a minor infection. *This is when the stone formation began. *Eight months later I have sudden onset of gross hematuria. *Where does this blood come from? *Damage to the uterer as the stone is moving along. *But skeptic says this is a myth. *Where did this stone come from? *Previous exposure to the cipro. *Again skeptic says this too is a myth. *But when we exam the stone it consist of Cipro. *Not once but twice. Again I told him that the urologist told me I had a urinary infection. *Stupid me believed him. *But I was lied to. * Next I was told that I had prostatitis. *Again I was lied to. *NONE of the testing or exams pointed to that diagnosis. *When I was in ER the doctor told me that I had an obstruction. *But the urologist insisted it was a severe urinary infection. *It was not until I fired this jerk that I found out all the urine test and all cultures were NEGATIVE. Again it was not until I obtained my medical records for the new urologist that I found out that all the testing was negative. I was told that the xrays did not show a kidney stone. *But when I fired this incompetent ass and got a real doctor he saw the stone right away. *When I told him about all the problems I was having with the cipro, levaquin and floxin, he believed that these were adrs to the quinolones that I should not of even been on to begin with. The NEW urologist said NO bladder infections, NO urinary tract infections, NO prostatitis, simply a kidney stone that the radiologist missed when reviewing the xray as it was an occult stone very hard to see on film. *But it showed up when he did more testing such as CT scan, Retroperitoneal Ultrasound, and a KUB. *Test the other urologist should have done but didn't. So when a doctor tells you you have a urinary tract infection and prostatitis and need to be on these drugs you believe him. *It was not until much later that I found out otherwise. *About eight months later I develop another stone. *Only this time it is treated properly. *When it is examined once again it consist of cipro. *This I believe to be from the SECOND exposure to cipro. This was eight years ago. *Since that time I have NOT had another stone. *So logic dictates that BOTH stones were the result of exposure to cipro since both stones consist of cipro and only formed while taking cipro. *Skeptic says bull****. *But when we consider the fact that for 45 years prior to this FIRST stone I had never had a kidney stone in my life, and 8 years AFTER the fact I have yet to have another I would have to disagree. When I started to look at my full medical history I find out that a number of times in the past, AFTER taking a quinolone drug, I find that I had all kinds of problems with these drugs that of course the doctors said were not related. *When I start researching the safety profile of these drugs I find out that they were mistaken. First exposure in the late eighties when treated for pnuemonia. *Heart attack and blown achilles tendon and the whole list of other problems that eventually resolved. . Second exposre to cipro in the early nineties. *Frozen knee and frozen shoulder. Third exposure in the late nineties. *Blown knee, gastro problems, and the whole list of other problems that persisted. Fourath and fifth expsoure all hell breaks loose. *Left with a laundry list of serious problems including cipro kidney stones, rupture of the stomach muscles, shrunken tendons, tendonitis, permanent double vision, peripheral nueropathy, damage to the liver, heart, pancreas and kidneys, etc. *This may very well of been the result of not only being on cipro, but also floxin and levaquin at ridiculiously high doses. *But again skeptic says bull****. Prior to 2000 I had no idea what a quinolone even was let alone it's side effects. *NO doctor had ever warned me about them. *So I got curious. *The more I read the more I found out how IGNORANT the medical community is regarding these drugs. *The result of this eight years of research is posted on the fqresearch.org site. *Skeptic I believe hasn't even bothered to log unto the site. He'd much rather nit pick my attempts to explain what has happened to me instead. *He is just another ignorant urologist, the same as the one who crippled me for life eight years. *He is not a doctor. *But a closed minded egotistical jerk. *But I find his state of denial fascinating to say the least. *Just keep attacking the messenger while completely ignoring the message being presented. *Gotta love it. *Here I have presented a number of his peers, a couple of college professors, the medical staff of Public Citizen as well as the medical staff of an Attorney General bearing the same message and skeptic still says "bull****". His counter arguments? *I have yet to see anything but nit picking. No citations, no clinical studies, no evidence of any kind and certainly not anything written by his peers. *Just accusations that I am a loony on a vendetta and perhaps even a fake. *If he wants confirmation that I exist and what has happened to me is documented medical fact, all he has to do is go down to the District Court House in Tampa and read Fuller vs. Starling et al. *This is all a matter of public record for anyone to read. *Every gory detail of the damage I endure as well as the gross medical malpractice by which this took place is contained therein. The results of the meeting with Rush Holt that I attended with a number of other doctors and victims? *New warnings for the quinolone class: In 2004 new warning labels added to all of the Fluoroquinolones regarding Peripheral Neuropathy (irreversible nerve damage), Tendon Damage, Heart Problems (prolonged QT Interval / Torsades de pointes), Pseudomembranous colitis, Rhabdomyolysis (muscle wasting), Steven Johnson Syndrome, as well as concurrent usage of NSAIDs contributing to the severity of these reactions. The results of my research? *Two petitioins filed with the FDA seeking "Black Box Warnings and Dear Doctor Letters" as well as the additional warnings stated above. What has he accomplished? *Keeps handing this stuff out like halloween candy claiming them to be just as safe or even safer than the other drugs at his disposal and nit picking anything I say. So let's decide who is correct here. *Him or I. *Frankly I think he might just be a fake himself. *For someone claiming to be so "educated" why do I see nothing but stupidity? *I can fix ignorance. But I cannot fix stupid. *And it cannot be considered to be anything but shear stupidity to claim that the quinolone class is a safe antibiotic and safer than any other other antibiotic on the market today. *This goes way beyond ignorance. *It borders on medical malpractice. *But let him have his fun. *Apparently he has nothing better to do with his time than argue with me. *Researching these drugs is obviously not a priority with him. *Thankfully I am not one of his patients. *I've have had enough of incompetent medical care to last me a life time. *The next time they just might succeed in killing me instead. *Maybe that would have been a blessing, as I what I now endure cannot be called living.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Reply - Even if this quack is a real Dr...which I find that hard to believe, his education and learning ceased to continue as soon as he had that pretty little degree framed and hung neatly on his wall. Real Dr.s continue to learn from their patients and continue to research and study new developments in modern medicine. Above all, real Dr.s that are worth anything listen to their patients with an open mind and consider all possibilities and realize that Dr.s and the drugs they prescribe are fallible....more often than not. This guy, if he even is a Dr. lives in his narrow little world where black is black and white is white and there are no gray areas. About as closed minded as they get. Scared to death that he could be wrong, and even more scared that he could have to admit it. A very sorry excuse for a Dr. if there ever was one. I feel bad for all the patients he has yet to injure through sheer ignorance. You said ignorance can be fixed, but that's only if the ignorant party wants it fixed. If they don't, then that only leaves stupid, and like you said, you can't fix stupid. A wise old timer once told me : Some people you just can't reach.....because that's the way they want it. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
The Fluoroquinolone Drugs are the most toxic and dangerousantibiotic in clinical practice today.
On Mar 7, 12:06*am, davidtfull wrote:
* Even if this quack is a real Dr...which I find that hard to believe, his education * and learning ceased to continue as soon as he had that pretty little degree * framed and hung neatly on his wall. * Real Dr.s ... read more - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This discussion is a prime example of what EVERY patient who suffers an adverse reaction to these drugs has to endure while seeking competent medical care to treat such injuries. *After eight years of putting up with such nonsense I am pretty much immune to this type of treatment. *Just another day at the office. *I guess when they graduate from medical school they believe themselves to be infallible. *Incapable of making either a mistake in judgment or an error of any kind. *They are now to be considered "GODS" and we are all expected to bow down to their superior intellect. *Bull****. *They are nothing more than glorified mechanics that instead of working on Porches they now spend fifteen minutes working on a human body. And a backyard mechanic who has been working on cars themselves is of no interest to them whatsoever. *Beneath their dignity I would imagine. *And as direct result of such egotism my life has been destroyed. *Does this guy care? *Not in the least. I try to warn him that these drugs have serious side effects that are non-abating and can last a lifetime. *I try to relate my own experiences regarding this. *First I tell him that my whole ordeal began when I developed a kidney stone as a result of being on cipro and a medrol dose pak. *Bull**** he says, quinolones do not cause kidney stones. * Ok, I pull up a citation that states exactly that. Not good enough. Let's take a moment and look at some of skeptic's statements regarding kidney stones. *First he states that cipro induced kidney stone is possible but there had been only ONE reported event (citing to CHOPRA et al which he was totally unaware of till I brought this to his attention): "So while the very very occasional odd side effect is possible, it by no means should be considered a standard side effect - especially that is the only ever reported event of that phenomenon." Then he goes on to state that cipro DOES NOT cause kidney stones. Even though he just read a report that clearly contradicts him and had already admitted that fact that this was possible. "Cipro does not "cause kidney stones". That would be a very misleading statement. There is one known case of cipro causing stones resulting in obstruction." Yet when we look at the package inserts for all the various forms of cipro what do we find being reported? *FRICKIN KIDNEY STONES: First Citation: Ciprofloxacin Injection Adverse Reactions in Adult Patients RENAL/UROGENITAL: renal failure, interstitial nephritis, nephritis, hemorrhagic cystitis, RENAL CALCULI, frequent urination, acidosis, urethral bleeding, polyuria, urinary retention, gynecomastia, candiduria, vaginitis, breast pain. Crystalluria, cylindruria, hematuria and albuminuria have also been reported. Second Citation: Cipro: RENAL CALCULI, serum sickness like reaction, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, taste loss, Third Citation: Cipro IV RENAL/UROGENITAL: * renal failure, interstitial nephritis, nephritis, hemorrhagic cystitis, RENAL CALCULI, frequent urination, acidosis, urethral bleeding, polyuria, urinary retention, gynecomastia, candiduria, vaginitis, breast pain. Crystalluria, cylindruria, hematuria and albuminuria have also been reported. Fourth Citation: And what does the material safety data sheet regarding Ciprofloxacin Hydrochloride MSDS state? May also affect the kidneys and cause nephritis, hematuria, cylindruria, renal failure, urinary retention, polyuria, urethral bleeding, RENAL CALCULI, interstitial nephritis. Review of the literature also points to this side effect: First Citation: Efficacy and safety of ciprofloxacin in the treatment of UTIs and RTIs in patients affected by liver diseases "In which it is reported that nephrosis followed cipro induced RENAL CALCULI" $32.00 (this may be yet another additional report but I was not willing to spend *$32 to find out) Second Citation: Ciprofloxacin Use in Children: A Review of Recent Findings from Pediatric Pharmacotherapy it is stated that: "Renal disease, including interstitial nephritis and RENAL CALCULI, has been reported in adults taking ciprofloxacin" Third Citation: Rev Urol. 2003 Fall; 5(4): 227-231. *PMCID: PMC1508366 Copyright (c) 2003 MedReviews, LLC Drug-Induced Urinary Calculi Brian R Matlaga, MD, MPH, Ojas D Shah, MD, and Dean G Assimos, MD Department of Urology, Wake Forest University School of Medicine, Winston-Salem, NC "Urinary calculi can also be induced by medications when the drugs crystallize and become the primary component of the stones. In this case, urinary supersaturation of the agent may promote formation of the calculi. Drugs that INDUCE CALCULI via this process include magnesium trisilicate; CIPROFLOXACIN; sulfa medications; triamterene; indinavir; and ephedrine, alone or in combination with guaifenesin. When this situation occurs, discontinuation of the medication is usually necessary." Fourth Citation: Within Antimicrobial Therapy in Veterinary Medicine, Fourth Edition, it stated the following in regards to cipro: "Crystalluria leading to obstructive uropathy has been reported in human studies. *Other renal toxciities include acutre renal failure associated with interstitial nerphritis." Notice here how the authors cited to "human studies" which means MORE THAN ONE STUDY. The fact that quinolones can induce renal calculus has been well known since 1983. *For example in this article this association is reported with flumequine. *A quinolone drug: First Citation: Ann Biol Clin (Paris). 1983;41(4):239-49.Links [Detection and diagnosis of drug induced lithiasis][Article in French] Daudon M, Protat MF, Réveillaud RJ. DRUG-INDUCED CALCULI are often mis-diagnosed because of inadequate analysis of the urinary calculi. These stones can only be characterized unambiguously by global physical methods like infra-red spectrophotometry. From a series of 2,000 calculi analysed under infra- red, we identified 22, i.e. 1.1% of cases, which contained, partly or entirely, drug products. Ten other cases are still being studied. Amongst the products identified we found metabolites of glafenine (Glifanan) in 7 cases, triamterene and its derivatives (Cycloteriam) in 7 cases, metabolites of phenazopyridine (Pyridium) in 4 cases, sulphonamides in 2 cases : N-acetylsulphamethoxazole hydrochloride (Bactrim) and N-acetylsulphaguanidine (Guanidan), FLUMEQUINE (Apurone) in 1 case and calcite (Cal-Mag-Na) in 1 case. The authors estimate that about 100,000 calculi are excreted in France each year and that at least 1,000 of these potentially contain drugs and are not diagnosed. Early recognition of drug induced stones is essential in order to protect the patient from recurrences, the risks of renal complications or, more simply, from useless therapeutic or dietetic regimes. Second Citation: Kidney stone 1: J Clin Chem Clin Biochem. 1987 May;25(5):313-4.Links IDENTIFICATION OF FLUMEQUINE IN A URINARY CALCULUS.Rincé C, Daudon M, Moesch C, Rincé M, Leroux-Robert C. Various analytical methods are available to help identify the presence of drugs in urinary calculi. Using infrared spectrophotometric analysis, nonmetabolized flumequine was identified in a protein calculus from a patient who had taken the drug for a urinary tract infection. Free flumequine can precipitate in an acidic environment. Third Citation: 1: Presse Med. 1983 Oct 29;12(38):2389-92.Links [Drug-induced urinary lithiasis][Article in French] Reveillaud RJ, Daudon M. All urinary calculi should be thoroughly examined. Among 2 000 calculi analyzed by infra-red spectrophotometry, some were found to contain rare constituants and drugs which might be held responsible for urinary stone formation. These included glafenine, triamterene, co- trimoxazole, sulphaguanidine, allopurinol, phenazopyridine, FLUMEQUINE and anti-acid powders containing aluminium, calcium and magnesium trisilicates and/or carbonates or bicarbonates. So basically our good doctor is full of it. *More than one case of cipro induced renal colic has been reported or we would not see this listed as a side effect in all the package inserts. *I rather doubt that the various manufacturers (cipro has gone generic) would include this side effect based upon ONE report. He also blows off the significance of crystalluria: "The fact that there may or may not be crystalluria at an increased incidence is cute but of no clinical consequence." Which once again is not true. Why is this of any clinical consequence? *Because nephrolithiasis (kidney stones) is PRECEDED by Crystalluria, that is why. Crystal precipitation is the necessary initial step in kidney stone formation. But once again we find that the literature does NOT support his opinions in this matter: First Citation: "Crystalluria examination is an essential laboratory test for detecting and following pathological conditions, which may induce renal stone disease or alter kidney function due to urine crystals." Ann Biol Clin (Paris). 2004 Jul-Aug;62(4):379-93. Links [Clinical value of crystalluria study][Article in French] Daudon M, Jungers P, Lacour B. Laboratoire de Biochimie A, Groupe hospitalier Necker-enfants malades, Paris. Second Citation: Scand J Urol Nephrol. 1993;27(2):145-9.Links Crystalluria and its possible significance. A patient-control study.Abdel-Halim RE. The significance of crystalluria in the diagnosis and prognosis of urolithiasis remains a controversial subject in the current urological literature. In this study, in addition to the standard urolithiasis clinical and biochemical work-up, routine urine microscopy was performed to study crystals in 1 fresh and 2 stored morning urine samples from 140 urinary stone patients and 42 controls. Crystalluria was more frequently detected in patients (9.3% of the fresh samples) than in controls (2%). Storing the samples for 6 hours did not increase the frequency percent of detected crystalluria either in patients or controls. However, in the samples stored for 24 hours, the frequency of crystalluria increased to 27.1% in patients and only to 12% in controls, though the pH did not change from that of the fresh sample. In addition, while calcium oxalate crystals in patients formed aggregates whether in fresh or 24 hour samples, those of controls did not. This denotes a characteristic change in the physico-chemical properties of the urine of stone formers from that of controls. Accordingly, the study of crystalluria in patients with urolithiasis seems to help in the proper evaluation and, maybe, treatment of the disease. Third Citation Serial crystalluria determination and the risk of recurrence in calcium stone formers MICHEL DAUDON, CAROLE HENNEQUIN, GHAZI BOUJELBEN1, BERNARD LACOUR and PAUL JUNGERS Department of Biochemistry A, Necker Hosptial, Paris, France; and Department of Nephrology, Necker Hospital, Paris, France Serial crystalluria determination and the risk of recurrence in calcium stone formers. Background Urinary crystal precipitation is the necessary initial step in kidney stone formation. However, clinical relevance of crystalluria in the evaluation of stone formers is disputed. Methods We serially determined crystalluria in first-voided morning urine samples, together with full 24-hour urine biochemistry, in 181 patients with idiopathic calcium nephrolithiasis who had formed at least one calcium-oxalate stone and were followed for at least 3 years under our care. All stone events which occurred prior to referral, then after entry in the study were recorded. Results As compared with 109 patients who had no evidence of stone recurrence during follow-up, the 72 patients who experienced *one recurrent stone event had a lower daily urine volume (1.74 *0.06 vs. 2.26 *0.05 L/day (mean *SEM) (P 0.0001), higher urine calcium and oxalate concentrations, and daily calcium excretion, and they had more frequent crystalluria (68% vs. 23% of urine samples) (P 0.0001). By multivariate Cox regression analysis, the hazard ratio for stone recurrence was 0.32 (95% CI 0.16-0.62) for 1 L increase in daily urine volume, 1.12 (1.09-1.24) for 1 mmol/L increase in urine calcium concentration, 1.24 (1.02-1.50) for 0.1 mmol/L increase in urine oxalate concentration and 27.8 (10.2-75.6) for crystalluria index. Conclusion These data provide evidence that crystalluria, when repeatedly found in early morning urine samples, is highly predictive of the risk of stone recurrence in calcium stone formers. Serial search for crystalluria, a simple and cheap method, may be proposed as a useful tool for the monitoring of calcium stone formers, in addition to urine biochemistry Acute renal colic is described as one of the WORST types of pain that a patient can suffer. Note that the pain is generally due to the stone's presence in the ureter, and not--as is commonly believed--the urethra and lower genitals. *So once again common sense would dictate that if you gave a damn about your patients you would not want to subject them to the WORSE TYPE OF PAIN THAT A PATIENT CAN SUFFER needlessly. *Crystalluria is therefore VERY relevant and of course clinically relevant if you engage in treating patients with kidney stones. *Especially when your favorite drug has been shown to cause such stones as a direct result of such Crystalluria. So what does the good doctor do when I inform him that in humans, ciprofloxacin crystalluria may be induced when urinary pH is greater than 7.3? *He says"bull****" this only applies to animals treated by enrofloxacin and not humans. *So what exactly is enrofloxacin? *You may have heard of is as Baytril. *Which is the veterinary form of what? *CIPROFLOXACIN. Enrofloxacin is an analogue of the human antibacterial ciprofloxacin. *Ciprofloxacin is a metabolic breakdown product of enrofloxacin. Ciprofloxacin has been identified as a major metabolite of enrofloxacin. Enrofloxacin, its counterpart for human use ciprofloxacin, has toxic properties in humans yet we find very little difference in its chemical structure and cipro: C19H22FN3O3 is the chemical structure of N-Ethylciprofloxacin (commonly known as Enrofloxacin or Baytril) C17H18FN3O3 is the chemical structure of Ciprofloxacin. Most fluoroquinolones possess a nitrogen-containing cyclic substituent on the quinolone nucleus. Although several ring structures are possible, the 1-piperazinyl substituent and the 4-methyl-1-piperazinyl substituent are the most common ones. The only real difference being the subsitition of 7-(4-ethylpiperazin-1-yl) for *7-piperazin. *Hence what we see here is Enrofloxacin uses the 4-methyl-1-piperazinyl substituent where as cipro uses the 1-piperazinyl substituent. *Not a whole lot of difference. In fact you will find enrofloxacin and ciprofloxacin used interchangeably within the literature. Baytril if you will recall has been banned. The Committee noted that the antimicrobial activity of ciprofloxacin against the relevant human intestinal microflora was about four times greater than that of enrofloxacin and that consumers may be exposed to residues of ciprofloxacin in some species of food-producing animals. (WHO FOOD ADDITIVES SERIES 39 World Health Organization, Geneva 1997) So basically in plain English Cipro is derived from Enrofloxacin. *So common sense would again dictate that when we look at the possible adrs of cipro me must also take into consideration of the adrs of enrofloxacin. *Not to mention the fact that the entire food chain has been contaminated with baytril and people have the potential to being exposed to this drug everytime they sit down to eat. Bladder stones are quite common with Enrofloxacin. *But the manufacturers state that this is because of the pH level of the animal's urine. *Since human pH is different this would not be an affect seen in humans. *But once again common sense would dictate that if the human pH were the same as an animal's pH then there is a possibility that a bladder stone would occur. *So what does the good doctor say? "Cipro does not cause bladder stones. That was just a silly comment. The pH issue is based on either in vitro lab data or animal data and since we only have one published case of renal stones resulting from cipro use we can't really say if acidity of the urine played any role." Persistent Crystalluria may contribute to formation and growth of uroliths. *Crystalluria may solidify crystalline-matrix plugs, resulting in urethral obstruction. Bladder stones, more correctly called 'uroliths,' are rock-like collections of minerals that form in the urinary bladder. *Not a whole lot different than kidney stones. As such a person's pH is a part of the risk of developing a bladder stone resulting from being on cipro and something that should be monitored in a patient undergoing therapy. *States the very same thing within the package insert and advises that the patient remain hydrated to avoid this complication. Therefor I have demonstrated the following: 1. Cipro has been reported to cause kidney stones. 2. Enrofloxacin has been reported to cause bladder stones 3. For all practical purposes Enrofloxacin and Ciprofloxacin are one and the same 4. Crystalluria has been shown to be a contributory factor to both stones 5. Cipro causes Crystalluria 6. Crystalluria is a definitive marker for the possibility of forming either stone 7. We have one case report of cipro-induced bladder stone and kidney stone; hence it has been confirmed that Cipro is capable of causing both bladder stones and kidney stones due to crystalluria. 8. We have numerous post marketing reports of kidney stones being caused by cipro 9. Within the AER database, selecting one quarter at random, showed numerous reports of kidney stones in which cipro was cited as to being the primary suspect drug. 10. The pain of a kidney stone is the worse pain that a patient could possibly experience 11. The good doctor does not give a **** about any of this. Being "right" is far more important to him. As such I don't give a **** about the good doctor's frivolous opinions. *Neither should his patients for that matter. *Like I said to him before, he simply is not worth the effort that it takes to do this kind of research to prove him wrong. *First and foremost because he won't even bother to read it to begin with. *Secondly rather than examine it for something of value to his patients, he will examine it for either a typographical error, misspelling of a medical term, bitch about the lack of full abstracts and text, or simply tell me that all of these references are in error as they do not agree with his preconceived notions. *But the question I continue to ask, the one that is constantly being ignored, is where the hell are HIS citations that prove me wrong? *I've added a couple of dozen more to my never- ending list. *I have yet to see ONE of his. *Must be because they do not exist. But can you just imagine what the poor patient who is unaware of any of this research is up against when fighting with his or her doctor about these issues? *I can. That is why I continue to do battle with this stubborn ass. *If I don't who will? No, a medical degree does not make one infallible. *I am not infallible either. *I make mistakes just like everybody else. *And when I am wrong I say I am wrong if you can prove that this indeed is the case. *But I do know how to read what others a helluva lot smarter than I have written. *And I tend to believe what they have to say more so than this quack. *If I am wrong then you would think that he would be kind enough to show me my errors based upon the literature rather than being crude, rude and sarcastic. *Rather than just nit pick and insult me why does he not simply provide his proofs? *Apparently I am asking too much of the good doctor for he adamantly refuses to do so. Respect what he has to say JUST because he is a doctor? *Hell no. Earn my respect first and we will go from there. *He has failed to do that as well so far. *I find him to be just as amusing as he finds me to be. *Perhaps even more so. *I only have a High School Diploma. What's his excuse for such ignorance? *Egotism? Or infatuation with a set of 40DDs? Reply to Davidfull - Apparently Skeptic has no come back to the facts you presented to him. All the citations mean nothing to him because he has none of his own to refute them. This is common behavior of most half assed Dr.s that know they haven't a leg to stand on, and only their old and misguided beliefs that they accepted from the drug rep. without any real scientific material to back them up. The lazy Dr's. way of doing research is to just listen to what the rep says. After all, it's a drug rep. They would never lie to protect their companie's profits.......... would they? |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
The Fluoroquinolone Drugs are the most toxic and dangerousantibiotic in clinical practice today.
Apparently Skeptic has no come back to the facts you presented to him.
All the citations mean nothing to him because he has none of his own to refute them. This is common behavior of most half assed Dr.s that know they haven't a leg to stand on, and only their old and misguided beliefs that they accepted from the drug rep. without any real scientific material to back them up. The lazy Dr's. way of doing research is to just listen to what the rep says. After all, it's a drug rep. They would never lie to protect their companie's profits.......... would they? Yes indeed they would. Just follow this link to see what these reps have to say about the quinolones and have a barf bag ready as well. It is that sickening. Read what the drug reps are saying about the Avelox "Dear Doctor" letter. These people are fricking heartless animals...and this is who the doctors depend upon for their information. http://www.cafepharma.com/boards/sho...d.php?t=257508 I am so sorry for wasting so much of this forum's time. But doctors such as this have destroyed more lives than I could possibly count. It just makes me so angry that they are so closed minded about adverse drug reactions. Why is it so difficult to say "hey, maybe you got a point here and I should be more aware and a bit more careful?" But this never happens. It is always a fight to the death as we have just witnessed. Sad isn't it? So much pain and misery could be so easily avoided if someone would only take the time to listen. If you had harbored any doubts about the safety profile of these drugs, or think that I have exaggerated here, the above link will surely cure you of that. And the young lady who died as a result of Avelox, who's story is posted on that forum? I know her parents. |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
The Fluoroquinolone Drugs are the most toxic and dangerous antibiotic in clinical practice today.
"ciprocripple" wrote in message ... Real Dr.s continue to learn from their patients You are not my patient. You are an overboard, melodramatic, quite possibly lying internet poster. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
The Fluoroquinolone Drugs are the most toxic and dangerous antibiotic in clinical practice today.
"davidtfull" wrote in message ... Apparently Skeptic has no come back to the facts you presented to him. All the citations mean nothing to him because he has none of his own to refute them. This is common behavior of most half assed Dr.s that know they haven't a leg to stand on, and only their old and misguided beliefs that they accepted from the drug rep. without any real scientific material to back them up. The lazy Dr's. way of doing research is to just listen to what the rep says. After all, it's a drug rep. They would never lie to protect their companie's profits.......... would they? Yes indeed they would. Just follow this link to see what these reps have to say about the quinolones and have a barf bag ready as well. It is that sickening. much like listening to your circular and repetitive rants. let's just ban all medications with potentially serious side effects. congrats, you just banned just about all of medicine. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Kids On ADHD Drugs - Dangerous Path To Addiction | Jeff | Kids Health | 0 | November 15th 06 02:50 AM |
Prescription drugs are connected to school shootings and other violence, yet more drugs are touted as the solution | Jan Drew | Kids Health | 27 | September 18th 06 03:28 AM |
SEVERAL drugs to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, including the widely prescribed Ritalin, must include warning information about the risk of heart problems and psychotic behavior, US health officials said today. | Jan Drew | Kids Health | 0 | August 27th 06 04:54 AM |
Kids On ADHD Drugs - Dangerous Path To Addiction | Jan Drew | Kids Health | 0 | July 9th 06 06:34 AM |
Kids On ADHD Drugs - Dangerous Path To Addiction | john | Kids Health | 49 | July 8th 06 07:45 AM |