C$ paid, yet Judge orders prison time for not paying child support..??

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tracy" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

It's called cover thy ass. Don't you think that ALL responsible
adults
should act in their own best interests?

Yes, all responsible adults should do what is right for their own
interest. Unfortunately there are adults who don't see eye-to-eye in
what being responsible is, which is the real problem and why
governments
have laws, etc. Then it is their own human thinking of what is best
for
'them' that could cause even the most responsible people to do stupid
things. Think about those who believe it is in their best interest to
lie about a subject which they feel is minor to a person who sees it
is
a major issue. In the long run the lie causes more problems than it
is
worth.

Agreed - but I was referring to things like EVERY adult taking
responsibility for their own birth control methods,....... and anyone
who
has to make a payment for something doing it in a way that they have
legally recognized proof of the payment.

Why would it even occur to someone who had never been hit with the
unfairness of the system to guard against that unfairness? Why would
it
occur to the poster that the deal his ex and himself made would not be
honored? How do you cover yourself against something you know nothing
about? Someone else IS to blame in his case. He did everything he
could
think of to do!

Apparently not. Apparently, he didn't think of the idea that if you are
involved in something with legalities (like divorce and supporting your
children), that there probably shouldn't be private agreements with the
person with whom you disagree to *such an extant* that you are getting a
divorce.

This is insane! Moonie is saying - No father getting divorced should
voluntarily give his soon to be ex any money to support his children.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, that TO PROTECT HIMSELF, he needs
to do it in a proveable, verifiable way

He
should starve her out.

Not what I said

He should let his children starve.

Not what I said

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tracy" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

It's called cover thy ass. Don't you think that ALL responsible
adults
should act in their own best interests?

Yes, all responsible adults should do what is right for their own
interest. Unfortunately there are adults who don't see eye-to-eye
in
what
being responsible is, which is the real problem and why
governments
have
laws, etc. Then it is their own human thinking of what is best
for
'them'
that could cause even the most responsible people to do stupid
things.
Think about those who believe it is in their best interest to lie
about
a
subject which they feel is minor to a person who sees it is a
major
issue.
In the long run the lie causes more problems than it is worth.

Agreed - but I was referring to things like EVERY adult taking
responsibility for their own birth control methods,....... and
anyone
who
has to make a payment for something doing it in a way that they have
legally
recognized proof of the payment.

There's really no excuse for not covering your own ass, and then
trying
to
lay the blame for a negative outcome on someone else.

While I agree with you about covering your own butt, the devil is in
the
details.

For years banks have encouraged their customers to allow them to
provide
copies of canceled checks on demand rather than returning all of them
all
every month. When I asked my bank to send me copies of CS checks
front
and
back covering several years, they ignored my request. Then they told
me
my
request was unreasonable and they wanted to charge me to get copies
of
my
checks. Then they ignored my inquiry as to what it would cost.

So let me get this straight..... you bank didn't send you the cancelled
check, and in your statement each month, there wasn't a copy of every
check?

Sounds a bit odd to me........ cause as far as I can tell, banks
stopped
sending the physical checks, and started sending a copy (much smaller,
and
up to about 16 images on a page, 8 front and back)...


The court refused to accept my spreadsheet showing check numbers and
the
CS
amount paid on each check which matched the court order exactly. The
court
said I couldn't just prepare a spreadsheet as proof of payments made.
How
could I have anticipated a third party service would not be real when
I
actually wanted to use it? How should I have covered my butt
differently?
How could I have anticipated the court would require copies of checks
a
bank
refused to produce?

I suppose you could have actually GONE to your bank, talked to the bank
manager, explained the need for the checks, inquired as to the cost and
how
long it would take, and then gone to pick them up. Banks don't
generally
ignore their customers..... it's bad business.

Okay here is more detail just for you Moonie -

I went to the bank. I talked to the manager. I had paid CS by check
weekly. I needed proof of payment covering three years for a court
hearing.
That's 52 checks per year, front and back, for three years, or 312
copies.
The bank was eventually willing to do the project for a fee (the service
was
advertised as being free) to meet the court's requirement, but they
couldn't
get it done before the court hearing.

It was at that hearing I learned about the law that says just writing a
check is not considered payment. Payment is not made until the check
has
been cashed.

You don't have a check register showing the check as you wrote it, and
your
bank statement showing that the money went out of your account? Even if
the
bank didn't provide the cancelled checks, are you saying that your bank
doesn't send out a monthly statement with ANY indication of what checks
cleared?

The judge told me they don't accept check register entries because a person
can write anything they want in their check record.


And since I couldn't prove the checks had been cashed I had no
porrf of payment.

Bank statements? I think the IRS recommends keeping records like that for
7
years.

Bank statements do not show who a check was made out to so they are not
accepted. The judge said I needed proof of who the check was made out to
and that they are the party who endorsed it. Without the front and back of
each check a father cannot prove what the legal system requires him to
prove.

The legal principle behind this is a person could make out a check in the
court ordered CS amount to anybody (including themselves) and then bring the
check book records and bank statements into court to show CS payments were
made. For that reason they require front and backs of all checks.


So the court went with my ex's version of my paymnet
hisotry even though she couldn't prove her claims either.

Happens all the time. I can give you more examples. I'm confident other
posters here can also give you examples where the mother's allegations were
taken at face value without any proof to back them up.

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tracy" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

It's called cover thy ass. Don't you think that ALL responsible
adults
should act in their own best interests?

Yes, all responsible adults should do what is right for their own
interest. Unfortunately there are adults who don't see eye-to-eye
in
what being responsible is, which is the real problem and why
governments
have laws, etc. Then it is their own human thinking of what is
best
for
'them' that could cause even the most responsible people to do
stupid
things. Think about those who believe it is in their best interest
to
lie about a subject which they feel is minor to a person who sees
it
is
a major issue. In the long run the lie causes more problems than it
is
worth.

Agreed - but I was referring to things like EVERY adult taking
responsibility for their own birth control methods,....... and
anyone
who
has to make a payment for something doing it in a way that they have
legally recognized proof of the payment.

Why would it even occur to someone who had never been hit with the
unfairness of the system to guard against that unfairness? Why would
it
occur to the poster that the deal his ex and himself made would not
be
honored? How do you cover yourself against something you know
nothing
about? Someone else IS to blame in his case. He did everything he
could
think of to do!

Apparently not. Apparently, he didn't think of the idea that if you
are
involved in something with legalities (like divorce and supporting your
children), that there probably shouldn't be private agreements with the
person with whom you disagree to *such an extant* that you are getting
a
divorce.

This is insane! Moonie is saying - No father getting divorced should
voluntarily give his soon to be ex any money to support his children.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, that TO PROTECT HIMSELF, he needs
to do it in a proveable, verifiable way

That's not what you said. It's right up above a few lines. You can read
what you said just like anyone else can read it.

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tracy" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

It's called cover thy ass. Don't you think that ALL responsible
adults
should act in their own best interests?

Yes, all responsible adults should do what is right for their own
interest. Unfortunately there are adults who don't see eye-to-eye in
what
being responsible is, which is the real problem and why governments
have
laws, etc. Then it is their own human thinking of what is best for
'them'
that could cause even the most responsible people to do stupid
things.
Think about those who believe it is in their best interest to lie
about
a
subject which they feel is minor to a person who sees it is a major
issue.
In the long run the lie causes more problems than it is worth.

Agreed - but I was referring to things like EVERY adult taking
responsibility for their own birth control methods,....... and anyone
who
has to make a payment for something doing it in a way that they have
legally
recognized proof of the payment.

There's really no excuse for not covering your own ass, and then
trying to
lay the blame for a negative outcome on someone else.

While I agree with you about covering your own butt, the devil is in
the
details.

For years banks have encouraged their customers to allow them to
provide
copies of canceled checks on demand rather than returning all of them
all
every month. When I asked my bank to send me copies of CS checks front
and
back covering several years, they ignored my request. Then they told
me my
request was unreasonable and they wanted to charge me to get copies of
my
checks. Then they ignored my inquiry as to what it would cost.

So let me get this straight..... you bank didn't send you the cancelled
check, and in your statement each month, there wasn't a copy of every
check?

Sounds a bit odd to me........ cause as far as I can tell, banks stopped
sending the physical checks, and started sending a copy (much smaller,
and up to about 16 images on a page, 8 front and back)...

I certainly never received any copies of checks printed in this way. I
was told that I could get copies of the checks any time I really needed
them. But, the one time I did need copies, I had a very difficult time
getting anyone to get them for me, and the copies wwere quite expensive.
It seemed that the bank wanted to save itself the hassle of returning
checks, was perfectly willing to send copies of 1 or 2 checks, but didn't
really want to make copies of multiple checks---unless its feet were held
to the fire, and they were nagged endlessly for a while. Nowadays, I can
just go online and print my own copies of any check I need.

Exactly. My bank no longer sends the physical checks, but there's an
image of each one in my bank statement.

My bank does not send images of checks. They are available online if I need
them. But that was not so a decade ago.

"Moon Shyne" wrote in

The blame lies with a communist system that practices
extortion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


ROFLMAO!! DB........ seek help. I believe you would benefit from it.

Anyone like yourself that frequents this NG for entertainment, needs more
help!

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tracy" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

It's called cover thy ass. Don't you think that ALL responsible
adults
should act in their own best interests?

Yes, all responsible adults should do what is right for their own
interest. Unfortunately there are adults who don't see eye-to-eye
in
what
being responsible is, which is the real problem and why
governments
have
laws, etc. Then it is their own human thinking of what is best
for
'them'
that could cause even the most responsible people to do stupid
things.
Think about those who believe it is in their best interest to lie
about
a
subject which they feel is minor to a person who sees it is a
major
issue.
In the long run the lie causes more problems than it is worth.

Agreed - but I was referring to things like EVERY adult taking
responsibility for their own birth control methods,....... and
anyone
who
has to make a payment for something doing it in a way that they have
legally
recognized proof of the payment.

There's really no excuse for not covering your own ass, and then
trying to
lay the blame for a negative outcome on someone else.

While I agree with you about covering your own butt, the devil is in
the
details.

For years banks have encouraged their customers to allow them to
provide
copies of canceled checks on demand rather than returning all of them
all
every month. When I asked my bank to send me copies of CS checks
front
and
back covering several years, they ignored my request. Then they told
me my
request was unreasonable and they wanted to charge me to get copies
of
my
checks. Then they ignored my inquiry as to what it would cost.

So let me get this straight..... you bank didn't send you the
cancelled
check, and in your statement each month, there wasn't a copy of every
check?

Sounds a bit odd to me........ cause as far as I can tell, banks
stopped
sending the physical checks, and started sending a copy (much smaller,
and up to about 16 images on a page, 8 front and back)...

I certainly never received any copies of checks printed in this way. I
was told that I could get copies of the checks any time I really needed
them. But, the one time I did need copies, I had a very difficult time
getting anyone to get them for me, and the copies wwere quite
expensive.
It seemed that the bank wanted to save itself the hassle of returning
checks, was perfectly willing to send copies of 1 or 2 checks, but
didn't
really want to make copies of multiple checks---unless its feet were
held
to the fire, and they were nagged endlessly for a while. Nowadays, I
can
just go online and print my own copies of any check I need.

Exactly. My bank no longer sends the physical checks, but there's an
image of each one in my bank statement.

My bank does not send images of checks. They are available online if I
need
them. But that was not so a decade ago.

That's correct. My bank no longer offers the option to get check copies for
free.

Immediate withholding on non-IV-D orders did not take effect until new
orders were created, or old orders were modified, after November 1993. It
took 2-4 years after 11/93 before the majority of CS orders were paid as
they are today through the state. My first payments through the state CS
accounting unit started in 1/95 and it was done at my request to have the
state manage the accounting to stop all the game playing by my ex and the
judges to create erroneous arrearages. My ex wanted me to continue paying
her directly because she knew she would get the money quicker. I used the
law to get the accounting out of her hands.

BTW - If the statutory withholding limit is exceeded, a check is still
required to pay the amount over the statutory limit even today.

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tracy" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

It's called cover thy ass. Don't you think that ALL responsible adults
should act in their own best interests?

Yes, all responsible adults should do what is right for their own
interest. Unfortunately there are adults who don't see eye-to-eye in what
being responsible is, which is the real problem and why governments have
laws, etc. Then it is their own human thinking of what is best for
'them' that could cause even the most responsible people to do stupid
things. Think about those who believe it is in their best interest to lie
about a subject which they feel is minor to a person who sees it is a
major issue. In the long run the lie causes more problems than it is
worth.

Agreed - but I was referring to things like EVERY adult taking
responsibility for their own birth control methods,....... and anyone who
has to make a payment for something doing it in a way that they have
legally recognized proof of the payment.

There's really no excuse for not covering your own ass, and then trying to
lay the blame for a negative outcome on someone else.

Like I heard from a couch recently, "you will fine excuses are just that
'excuses'." In my opinion an excuse is not justification or use of
reasoning when trying to not own up to responsibility. I've also been told
that it is controling behavior when those who attempt to make someone feel
guilty instead of being responsible for their personal behavior.

Tracy

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tracy" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

It's called cover thy ass. Don't you think that ALL responsible
adults
should act in their own best interests?

Yes, all responsible adults should do what is right for their own
interest. Unfortunately there are adults who don't see eye-to-eye
in
what
being responsible is, which is the real problem and why
governments
have
laws, etc. Then it is their own human thinking of what is best
for
'them'
that could cause even the most responsible people to do stupid
things.
Think about those who believe it is in their best interest to lie
about
a
subject which they feel is minor to a person who sees it is a
major
issue.
In the long run the lie causes more problems than it is worth.

Agreed - but I was referring to things like EVERY adult taking
responsibility for their own birth control methods,....... and
anyone
who
has to make a payment for something doing it in a way that they
have
legally
recognized proof of the payment.

There's really no excuse for not covering your own ass, and then
trying
to
lay the blame for a negative outcome on someone else.

While I agree with you about covering your own butt, the devil is in
the
details.

For years banks have encouraged their customers to allow them to
provide
copies of canceled checks on demand rather than returning all of
them
all
every month. When I asked my bank to send me copies of CS checks
front
and
back covering several years, they ignored my request. Then they
told
me
my
request was unreasonable and they wanted to charge me to get copies
of
my
checks. Then they ignored my inquiry as to what it would cost.

So let me get this straight..... you bank didn't send you the
cancelled
check, and in your statement each month, there wasn't a copy of every
check?

Sounds a bit odd to me........ cause as far as I can tell, banks
stopped
sending the physical checks, and started sending a copy (much smaller,
and
up to about 16 images on a page, 8 front and back)...


The court refused to accept my spreadsheet showing check numbers and
the
CS
amount paid on each check which matched the court order exactly.
The
court
said I couldn't just prepare a spreadsheet as proof of payments
made.
How
could I have anticipated a third party service would not be real
when
I
actually wanted to use it? How should I have covered my butt
differently?
How could I have anticipated the court would require copies of
checks
a
bank
refused to produce?

I suppose you could have actually GONE to your bank, talked to the
bank
manager, explained the need for the checks, inquired as to the cost
and
how
long it would take, and then gone to pick them up. Banks don't
generally
ignore their customers..... it's bad business.

Okay here is more detail just for you Moonie -

I went to the bank. I talked to the manager. I had paid CS by check
weekly. I needed proof of payment covering three years for a court
hearing.
That's 52 checks per year, front and back, for three years, or 312
copies.
The bank was eventually willing to do the project for a fee (the
service
was
advertised as being free) to meet the court's requirement, but they
couldn't
get it done before the court hearing.

It was at that hearing I learned about the law that says just writing a
check is not considered payment. Payment is not made until the check
has
been cashed.

You don't have a check register showing the check as you wrote it, and
your
bank statement showing that the money went out of your account? Even if
the
bank didn't provide the cancelled checks, are you saying that your bank
doesn't send out a monthly statement with ANY indication of what checks
cleared?

The judge told me they don't accept check register entries because a
person
can write anything they want in their check record.

When you match it with your bank statement, there's verification that it was
more than just writing it into your register. That's why I said a check
register AND your bank statement.




And since I couldn't prove the checks had been cashed I had no
porrf of payment.

Bank statements? I think the IRS recommends keeping records like that
for
7
years.

Bank statements do not show who a check was made out to so they are not
accepted.

Well...... this is sounding an awful lot like "why don't you.............."
"yes, but............."

If you have a register showing a check for a certain amount, made out for
the CS, and then back it up with the bank statement showing the same check
for the same amount, that's closes up a lot of gaps.

The judge said I needed proof of who the check was made out to
and that they are the party who endorsed it. Without the front and back
of
each check a father cannot prove what the legal system requires him to
prove.

The legal principle behind this is a person could make out a check in the
court ordered CS amount to anybody (including themselves) and then bring
the
check book records and bank statements into court to show CS payments were
made. For that reason they require front and backs of all checks.

Or using the system to your advantage, which is what I had first suggested,
and you stated that you did precisely that.



So the court went with my ex's version of my paymnet
hisotry even though she couldn't prove her claims either.

Happens all the time. I can give you more examples. I'm confident other
posters here can also give you examples where the mother's allegations
were
taken at face value without any proof to back them up.

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tracy" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

It's called cover thy ass. Don't you think that ALL responsible
adults
should act in their own best interests?

Yes, all responsible adults should do what is right for their own
interest. Unfortunately there are adults who don't see eye-to-eye
in
what being responsible is, which is the real problem and why
governments
have laws, etc. Then it is their own human thinking of what is
best
for
'them' that could cause even the most responsible people to do
stupid
things. Think about those who believe it is in their best interest
to
lie about a subject which they feel is minor to a person who sees
it
is
a major issue. In the long run the lie causes more problems than
it
is
worth.

Agreed - but I was referring to things like EVERY adult taking
responsibility for their own birth control methods,....... and
anyone
who
has to make a payment for something doing it in a way that they
have
legally recognized proof of the payment.

Why would it even occur to someone who had never been hit with the
unfairness of the system to guard against that unfairness? Why
would
it
occur to the poster that the deal his ex and himself made would not
be
honored? How do you cover yourself against something you know
nothing
about? Someone else IS to blame in his case. He did everything he
could
think of to do!

Apparently not. Apparently, he didn't think of the idea that if you
are
involved in something with legalities (like divorce and supporting
your
children), that there probably shouldn't be private agreements with
the
person with whom you disagree to *such an extant* that you are getting
a
divorce.

This is insane! Moonie is saying - No father getting divorced should
voluntarily give his soon to be ex any money to support his children.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, that TO PROTECT HIMSELF, he
needs
to do it in a proveable, verifiable way

That's not what you said. It's right up above a few lines. You can read
what you said just like anyone else can read it.

I sure as HELL didn't say the father should starve out anyone, Bob - that's
also verifiable by reading the thread.

I said...

"but I was referring to things like EVERY adult taking responsibility for
their own birth control methods,....... and anyone who has to make a payment
for something doing it in a way that they have legally recognized proof of
the payment."

"Tracy" wrote in message
. ..
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tracy" wrote in message
...
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

It's called cover thy ass. Don't you think that ALL responsible adults
should act in their own best interests?

Yes, all responsible adults should do what is right for their own
interest. Unfortunately there are adults who don't see eye-to-eye in
what being responsible is, which is the real problem and why governments
have laws, etc. Then it is their own human thinking of what is best for
'them' that could cause even the most responsible people to do stupid
things. Think about those who believe it is in their best interest to
lie about a subject which they feel is minor to a person who sees it is
a major issue. In the long run the lie causes more problems than it is
worth.

Agreed - but I was referring to things like EVERY adult taking
responsibility for their own birth control methods,....... and anyone who
has to make a payment for something doing it in a way that they have
legally recognized proof of the payment.

There's really no excuse for not covering your own ass, and then trying
to lay the blame for a negative outcome on someone else.

Like I heard from a couch recently, "you will fine excuses are just that
'excuses'." In my opinion an excuse is not justification or use of
reasoning when trying to not own up to responsibility. I've also been
told that it is controling behavior when those who attempt to make someone
feel guilty instead of being responsible for their personal behavior.

Pretty much...... it's the bank's fault, it's the ex's fault, it's the
lawyer's fault, it's the judge's fault, it's CSE's fault.......

seems to be a recurring theme.



Tracy