I have a situation that I need help with

In article , Sue says...

"Banty" wrote in message
Well, it's a situation not to have gotten into to begin with.

How would you have not gotten into the situation at all? My only
intervention last night was my offer to type the report. When I did type
the report, I changed the wording and punctuation. Spelling was corrected by
the computer. So should I have let her stay up way past her bedtime to type
this herself, because she did put this off and we kept telling her to get it
done.

I did put in this response before your clarification.

But, still, I would not have gone to making the corrections without 'clearing'
it with my child. And our word processing software isn't set up to
automatically make spelling corrections - it just underlines them. My kid needs
all the spelling help he can get! (And I don't like some of my technical jargon
getting re-spelled!)

Furthermore, my solution for my son's procrastinating has always been to let him
live with the consequences of that. It has meant some late nights and some
materials compromises with some projects (like, not quite the color construction
paper he wanted...), but, oh well.


Those are the words the child wrote, and it's actually a Good Thing that
she
wants her teacher to see exactly what she wrote. Possibly, she's invested
in
her work in sort of an artistic sense - if so, that's also a Good Thing.

I'm not really convinced of that. She waited until the last minute to finish
this project and she was stressed out to get it done.

See above. She's in, what, fifth grade? Time to back off a bit and give her
the responsibility for her homework. Let her ask for help. (Nothing wrong with
helping in mechanical or assist-with-learning ways). Then, if you help, don't
have it turn into a "mommy-do" assignment.


As to her tantrum; well, she's ten.

Is that a normal thing then at this age?

At ten!?! Getting ****ed off and yelling and screaming? I've noticed that
particualr behavior among fairly normal (if ill-advised and/or immature,
possibly only momentarily) at ANY age.

As you say, she was stressed, and your intervention, at least exactly how you
intervened, wasn't her idea or request. That sort of thing tends to set people
off Now, they find better ways to handle it. But yes, at ten, that might
get expressed in a snit.

Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't teach her a thing or two about not abusing
the folks who are trying to help her. But hopefully that wouldn't happen with a
snit of your own.

All that said, this isn't a really big deal at all. This is the kind of blowup
that happens in just about any household, parents like us being made out of
imperfect stuff

But you are expecting a child to be dependent under her years as far as your
intervention in her own work, yet mature beyond her years as far as handling her
stress and frustration IMO.


Of the child and the adult, it's the adult that should have known better.

I am not understanding this. The adult should have known better for what?

See above.


although I would have had some words with her about her fussing that way
over something someone was doing for her.

Yes, we have been beating a dead horse over the fussing and tantrums that
she still has.

Most of all - time to get a copy of the Mavis Beacon typing course
software, to teach her a life skill she apparently has already needed for
sometime -
keyboarding!

We have it and she was actually typing the report herself, but I was trying
to help her out. Thanks.

OK, I see that in your clarification.

Banty

Sue wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
I wouldn't have fixed things in the report in the first
place, tempting though it is, without working through the child.
If I type something for the kids (which I do, on occasion, when
their load is heavy), the rule is that I type verbatim, mistakes
and all. If they want my services as an editor, then it has to
be a collaborative process.
Now, obviously, I can't condone the child freaking out
and screeching. That's not acceptable even if Mom shouldn't
have changed the wording around. I'd probably have had to say
something about that to the child, but would have apologized
for changing the report without knowledge/consent.

Thanks Ericka.

I do understand the frustration, by the way. When
time got tight, I used to offer to do the typing and then
do it after they went to bed, but it drove me crazy to have
to leave all the mistakes in. Now, I try to intervene earlier
if I see they're running out of time so that I can type while
they're still around so we can discuss anything I find particularly
egregious, or so that they can go back and fix the typed copy
using the spell checker. It makes my skin crawl to have them
turn in papers with spelling or grammar mistakes, and it's
worse when I've typed it! Ultimately, though, I think it's
essential that they fix their own mistakes, even if they're
"just" spelling or grammar mistakes.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Banty wrote:
In article , Sue says...
"Banty" wrote in message
Well, it's a situation not to have gotten into to begin with.
How would you have not gotten into the situation at all? My only
intervention last night was my offer to type the report. When I did type
the report, I changed the wording and punctuation. Spelling was corrected by
the computer. So should I have let her stay up way past her bedtime to type
this herself, because she did put this off and we kept telling her to get it
done.
snip

Furthermore, my solution for my son's procrastinating has always been to let him
live with the consequences of that. It has meant some late nights and some
materials compromises with some projects (like, not quite the color construction
paper he wanted...), but, oh well.

I think sometimes there's a fine line between enabling
procrastination and providing reasonable assistance. I do think
it's important for kids to suffer the consequences of procrastination.
If my child has had plenty of time to type the paper and is late
only because of that, then I think it's appropriate for there to
be a consequence. Sometimes they get to pick whether the consequence
is having to stay up late to finish, turning it in handwritten instead
of typed, or whatever and sometimes I'll force the issue (e.g., if
I think it's essential for some reason that they're in bed on time,
I'll tell them they only have until bedtime and they'll need to figure
out which requirements of the project they can meet in that time
frame and email the teacher to explain my role in the process).
On the other hand, if my assessment is that they've had
an unreasonable workload assigned, then I don't particularly mind
helping out with something as minor as typing or something else
that is unrelated to content/learning that will save them some
time. The closer call is if they get into a time crunch not because
the school workload is too much or because they've procrastinated,
but because of some kind of special event (guests visiting,
extracurricular performances, etc.) that has demanded an unusual
amount of time. Then, I just try to make a judgment call based
on whether I think they've done an age-appropriate job of
managing their time well, and I'll bail them out with some
non-content help if they need it.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:
In article , Sue says...
"Banty" wrote in message
Well, it's a situation not to have gotten into to begin with.
How would you have not gotten into the situation at all? My only
intervention last night was my offer to type the report. When I did type
the report, I changed the wording and punctuation. Spelling was corrected by
the computer. So should I have let her stay up way past her bedtime to type
this herself, because she did put this off and we kept telling her to get it
done.
snip

Furthermore, my solution for my son's procrastinating has always been to let him
live with the consequences of that. It has meant some late nights and some
materials compromises with some projects (like, not quite the color construction
paper he wanted...), but, oh well.

I think sometimes there's a fine line between enabling
procrastination and providing reasonable assistance. I do think
it's important for kids to suffer the consequences of procrastination.
If my child has had plenty of time to type the paper and is late
only because of that, then I think it's appropriate for there to
be a consequence. Sometimes they get to pick whether the consequence
is having to stay up late to finish, turning it in handwritten instead
of typed, or whatever and sometimes I'll force the issue (e.g., if
I think it's essential for some reason that they're in bed on time,
I'll tell them they only have until bedtime and they'll need to figure
out which requirements of the project they can meet in that time
frame and email the teacher to explain my role in the process).
On the other hand, if my assessment is that they've had
an unreasonable workload assigned, then I don't particularly mind
helping out with something as minor as typing or something else
that is unrelated to content/learning that will save them some
time. The closer call is if they get into a time crunch not because
the school workload is too much or because they've procrastinated,
but because of some kind of special event (guests visiting,
extracurricular performances, etc.) that has demanded an unusual
amount of time. Then, I just try to make a judgment call based
on whether I think they've done an age-appropriate job of
managing their time well, and I'll bail them out with some
non-content help if they need it.


Sure, I wouldn't hang him out to dry in a tough situation. Plus, he's pretty
good about the big projects being done on time. Some of it being that I really
emphasized pacing the work for big projects, and the schools here seem to have a
policy of teaching how to pace the work, having checkpoints.

It's the things he forgets about and doens't think about (since he does have a
procrastinating tendancy for assignments he deems small) that I let him deal
with it however he has to himself.

The way I look at it, it still is fundamentally his responsibility. Although I
make sure I'm out of the way (as in, not making last-minute long Sunday driving
plans!). But I help him out as he asks, if his requests are reasonable and not
forming a behavior pattern of my rescuing him. But I don't make it my business
to do whatever it takes to get him done before bedtime or anything like that.

Banty

"Sue" wrote:

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
snip
I knew it had to be memorized, but she had to have flash cards with key
points to help her remember. The report itself was just more information
that she had to collect and I just changed words around to make more sense.
She should already have known what the content of the report was and didn't
need to read it verbatim.

She didn't need to read it, but she apparently had memorized it so
that what she said would be the same as the report???

The type of help that should (IMHO) be offered to the student might be
having them read the paper out loud to some audience before the final
draft (that would be the time to talk about awkward phrasing), or
circling the misspelled words (if not using a WP program that
automatically highlights them) or fixing up an outline so that the
phrases are parallel. I would have no problem correcting the spelling
myself in the final draft --- IF that wasn't one of the parameters on
which the paper was being graded.

Yes that all happened yesterday afternoon. She was told of some things that
would make the report better, but she didn't listen to the suggestions, so I
guess that's why I went ahead and changed it because I felt she was being
stubborn and I think that she will be graded for the punctuation and
grammar.


That changes things a little bit. It sounds as if she might have
disagreed with your suggestions of how to make things sound better
(for whatever reason) and it makes (IMHO) it **worse** that you
over-rode her opinion of what the report should say.

I don't think I've ever gotten as far as a screaming fit over someone
changing my words, but I have been pretty annoyed.

My parents were pretty meticulous about editing papers, and we would
discuss meanings etc. of what had been written, and that was helpful,
but not of course at the last minute.

I will add, that parents aren't perfect (nor are teachers) and in 8th
grade when I had a significant procrastination problem (which I still
have), my English teacher signed my autograph book as follows:

Rosalie can do the work
She can do it fine
But when oh when will Rosalie
Get it in on time.

And also I will admit that when ds was 18 years old and a senior in
HS, he was failing every class (and one of the required ones for the
third time). I went to each teacher and asked what he had to do to
pass, and then made him do that, or helped him do that. For some of
the classes (like art), I just had to push a bit to get him to finish
and turn stuff in. And in math it was doing computational
assignments, which I let him do on his own. But for English, it was a
book report, and I had more input in that one. I had never had to do
anything of that sort for any of the girls. He did the work because I
bribed him and said that if he graduated, he could go to Ocean City
afterwards.

On Mon, 21 May 2007 12:25:53 -0400, Sue wrote:

Yes that all happened yesterday afternoon. She was told of some things that
would make the report better, but she didn't listen to the suggestions, so I
guess that's why I went ahead and changed it because I felt she was being
stubborn and I think that she will be graded for the punctuation and
grammar.

Sue

In that case, I would have left the spelling and puncutation alone. She
knew what you wanted and she left it alone. The teacher will let her know
what's expected with the final grade.

In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

How would you have handled this scenario?

Child is 10 yrs old. Child had speech/paper due this morning. Child worked
on it and asked if mother would type the report. Mother typed report.
However, mom changed some wording around to make sense, helped with spelling
and grammar. Child reads report and freaks out that mom changed her report,
screaming that is not what she memorized and is screeching at the top of her
lungs that mom ruined report. Mom then takes original report, type verbatim,
mistakes and all and takes child to school. Obviously mom's reactions were
left out intentionally. Thanks.

I would probably have done what you did under the circumstances! I don't
think tantrums are acceptable at age 10 (or indeed 6 -- we had one here this
morning after I stopped DS1 taking his tennis ball to school because he was
disobedient with it yesterday *twice*).

OTOH I would have started from a slightly different position. I have not
encountered compulsory typed reports and would not expect to do so until high
school (age 12 here). If the typing was compulsory, then DD should have done
it herself IMO, and I wouldn't be letting a kid that age stay up late either!
At that age, too, I would talk about the spelling/grammatical corrections to
her as they might relate to things she didn't know.

My other thought is that the tantrum might have been more connected with the
speech-making side. DD hasn't understood that she isn't supposed to deliver
her written report word for word, and presumably is very worried about her
speech. Some children are high-strung/pernickety and will have hysterics when
things don't happen exactly as they expect them to, and the changes to her
report were enough to do that. It's not a trait you'd want to encourage into
adulthood, of course, and if you think she's doing this habitually it might be
worth talking to her about it.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
I do understand the frustration, by the way. When
time got tight, I used to offer to do the typing and then
do it after they went to bed, but it drove me crazy to have
to leave all the mistakes in. Now, I try to intervene earlier
if I see they're running out of time so that I can type while
they're still around so we can discuss anything I find particularly
egregious, or so that they can go back and fix the typed copy
using the spell checker. It makes my skin crawl to have them
turn in papers with spelling or grammar mistakes, and it's
worse when I've typed it! Ultimately, though, I think it's
essential that they fix their own mistakes, even if they're
"just" spelling or grammar mistakes.

It makes my skin crawl to see reports and projects obviously done by
parents, and they are invariably on display in the hallways and at
parent-teacher day.
At this stage of the school year, the teacher ought to have a pretty good
idea of what the kids' work looks like, so wouldn't it be glaringly obvious
that it wasn't his/her work?
I admit I typed a report once, a long time ago.
It's better if the work submitted is done by the child, whether it's poorly
done, or late. The work is theirs and the grade should reflect that. If they
get a bad grade, oh well, they need to try harder next time.

"Sue" wrote in message
news:YoqdnTeHkf_UPMzbnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
How would you have handled this scenario?

Child is 10 yrs old. Child had speech/paper due this morning. Child worked
on it and asked if mother would type the report. Mother typed report.
However, mom changed some wording around to make sense, helped with
spelling and grammar.

I would not have edited it at all, but, I never would have typed it for her
in the first place.

Child reads report and freaks out that mom changed her report,
screaming that is not what she memorized and is screeching at the top of
her lungs that mom ruined report.

At this point I would have given the child back her original work, and told
her to finish it herself. If there was no more time, she'd have to submit it
late or get an incomplete grade on the assignment.


Mom then takes original report, type verbatim,
mistakes and all and takes child to school. Obviously mom's reactions were
left out intentionally. Thanks.

Sue

You've bent over backwards, twice. It's her report, her grade, if she gets a
bad one, it's on her!
I had "agita" after doing this once for my oldest son and swore never again.
I don't care if they get an "F" , as long as they did the work themselves.

On May 21, 9:40�am, "Sue" wrote:
How would you have handled this scenario?

Child is 10 yrs old. Child had speech/paper due this morning. Child worked
on it and asked if mother would type the report. Mother typed report.
However, mom changed some wording around to make sense, helped with spelling
and grammar. *Child reads report and freaks out that mom changed her report,
screaming that is not what she memorized and is screeching at the top of her
lungs that mom ruined report. Mom then takes original report, type verbatim,
mistakes and all and takes child to school. Obviously mom's reactions were
left out intentionally. *Thanks.

Sue

My child is in the 3rd grade and is 9 1/2. He had a Powerpoint
presentation to do this year. He did most of the base work at school
and then came the time to create it here on my laptop. He did the
typing. I did some editing of punctuation and spelling and spacing,
and helped him with running his own spellcheck, but I did not change
his words. When done, we went through the list of what the teacher was
looking for. I noticed a few key elements missing, and I discussed
them with him by saying "Did we answer this question here?" I had to
scramble to find the answer on this particular vertebrate and it took
days. Had I thought he could find the answer, then I would have had
him do it. Anyway, in the end I did change the order of his paragraphs
to match up better with the outline the teacher provided and then we
panicked that it might not match up with the slideshow he was going to
give. I explained why I was asking this question to the teacher and
she basically laughed at me and indirectly implied that I was being
too, um, what is the word.......overzealous maybe? lol. Anyway, she
had shared with me that the report would not be read as part of the
presentation so it didn't matter what order it was in, and she also
let me know that the product would have been acceptable even with some
missing points that she had posed because it was really an
introduction to this process and a learning experience, and the
expectations of this type of assignment are in no way comparable to
the expectations that we remember that we had in high school. All that
mattered to her was the way the presentation was given and that they
had complete sentences, and appropriate paragraphs, and the level of
thought and effort that went into the project was at least evident.