Other People's Kids

OK, so I am seeking input on how other parents would handle some
situations I found myself in lately. I'm not sure I handled these
right and am looking for input/suggestions.

My little girl is 3 years, 2 months. Her language is very far behind
the norm; few people besides me and her mom would understand more than
10% of what she says. This often makes her frustrated and prone to
tantrums. Besides that, she's a sweet and outgoing girl.

One - I'm at a Burger King playplace. There is a loft section where
the kids can climb up and crawl thru tunnels while the parents sit
below and eat/relax/whatever. She's up there with about 6 other
children ranging in age from 3-7. I notice that the other children
have all decided (led by a couple of 7 year olds) that my girl is yucky
and should be ostracized. They yell at her, "Get away!" and there is
some mild pushing. They make a game of running away from her. My girl
doesn't cry, she seems mostly puzzled. All the parents below are
oblivious or don't care.

What would you do?

(I climbed up there and gave my girl a hug and shot rude glares at the
7 year olds. I stayed up there to buffer the pushing and provide some
fun interaction with my girl. One of the other parents complain and
the manager comes and tells me to get down.)

Two - Our next door neighbor has a little boy 3 years, 8 months. He's
rowdy, as he should be at that age. He's bigger and able to do more
than my girl. They mostly play "near" each other and don't interact a
whole lot. I watch closely and see him push my girl down for no reason
that I could ascertain. She runs off and cries.

What would you do?

(As soon as I saw the push, I yelled, "JOSEPH! - Don't push her!" At
this point his mother came out and asked what happened and Joseph had
to go inside. I think she was not happy that I yelled at her kid,
perhaps rightfully so.)

Thanks for any responses.

Jack

Hi --

In the first case, at the fast food joint ... I always say that if it's
not broke, don't fix it. Your daughter wasn't bothered by the teasing
she was getting. By going in, you signalled to her that something was
wrong. You should have left well-enough alone, since no one's feelings
were being hurt. Instead, ask her afterwards if she had fun playing.
If she says no ** because the big kids were mean ** then remind her that
if there are mean kids, she can get a grownup to help. But if she
wasn't bothered, drop the subject. (Her tactic of ignoring the big
kids' teasing, while unintentional, was also the best possible tactic to
use. When kids tease, ignoring is the best defense. The teasers get
bored and quit more often than not.)

It's hard, as a parent, to refrain from interfering. But restraint is
often the best solution in the case of sub-optimal social interactions.

In the second case ... the goal is not JUST to restrain the boy from
pushing, but to improve the interaction. Your daughter's running away
to cry was also not optimal.

I'd probably have walked over to the boy, showed him that the girl was
crying, explained why, reminded him that pushing isn't nice, and then
walked him over and helped him to apologize to your daughter. And then
you remind your daughter that this boy is her friend, and when he hurts
her feelings she needs to tell him so that he won't do it again. Then
let them hug and make up, or whatever your neighborhood does.

Yelling from a distance does nothing but tell the boy that he did
something wrong. It doesn't fix the situation, and it doesn't take
steps towards preventing a recurrence. Furthermore, it doesn't send any
signals to your daughter! And she needs both to be reassured that you
saw and saw that it wasn't unfair, but she also needs to know that you
support her AND that there are other things SHE can do besides running
away from a difficult situation. (Even if she doesn't really talk much
yet, she can still communicate. ANd she can LEARN the things that
she'll need to say in a few months when she CAN speak more clearly.)

My two cents,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

Why is your kid so delayed?

wrote in message
ups.com...
OK, so I am seeking input on how other parents would handle some
situations I found myself in lately. I'm not sure I handled these
right and am looking for input/suggestions.

My little girl is 3 years, 2 months. Her language is very far behind
the norm; few people besides me and her mom would understand more than
10% of what she says. This often makes her frustrated and prone to
tantrums. Besides that, she's a sweet and outgoing girl.

One - I'm at a Burger King playplace. There is a loft section where
the kids can climb up and crawl thru tunnels while the parents sit
below and eat/relax/whatever. She's up there with about 6 other
children ranging in age from 3-7. I notice that the other children
have all decided (led by a couple of 7 year olds) that my girl is yucky
and should be ostracized. They yell at her, "Get away!" and there is
some mild pushing. They make a game of running away from her. My girl
doesn't cry, she seems mostly puzzled. All the parents below are
oblivious or don't care.

What would you do?

(I climbed up there and gave my girl a hug and shot rude glares at the
7 year olds. I stayed up there to buffer the pushing and provide some
fun interaction with my girl. One of the other parents complain and
the manager comes and tells me to get down.)

Two - Our next door neighbor has a little boy 3 years, 8 months. He's
rowdy, as he should be at that age. He's bigger and able to do more
than my girl. They mostly play "near" each other and don't interact a
whole lot. I watch closely and see him push my girl down for no reason
that I could ascertain. She runs off and cries.

What would you do?

(As soon as I saw the push, I yelled, "JOSEPH! - Don't push her!" At
this point his mother came out and asked what happened and Joseph had
to go inside. I think she was not happy that I yelled at her kid,
perhaps rightfully so.)

Thanks for any responses.

Jack

"Beth Kevles" wrote in message
...

Hi --

In the first case, at the fast food joint ... I always say that if it's
not broke, don't fix it. Your daughter wasn't bothered by the teasing
she was getting. By going in, you signalled to her that something was
wrong. You should have left well-enough alone, since no one's feelings
were being hurt. Instead, ask her afterwards if she had fun playing.
If she says no ** because the big kids were mean ** then remind her that
if there are mean kids, she can get a grownup to help. But if she
wasn't bothered, drop the subject. (Her tactic of ignoring the big
kids' teasing, while unintentional, was also the best possible tactic to
use. When kids tease, ignoring is the best defense. The teasers get
bored and quit more often than not.)

It's hard, as a parent, to refrain from interfering. But restraint is
often the best solution in the case of sub-optimal social interactions.

I agree. However, I would definitely not recommend climbing on the play
structure. it is meant for kids, not adults (darn!). In addition, a mother
or a father who is not with it might get the idea it is a good idea to
crawl up their and get stuck or break the thing.

In the second case ... the goal is not JUST to restrain the boy from
pushing, but to improve the interaction. Your daughter's running away
to cry was also not optimal.

She left an unhealthy situation. Perhaps it would have been better if she
went to an adult or were able to stick up more for herself, but she defused
the situtation.

Obviously, at some point she will learn to be more assertive and not take
getting pushed around like that, but I think her response was fine.

I'd probably have walked over to the boy, showed him that the girl was
crying, explained why, reminded him that pushing isn't nice, and then
walked him over and helped him to apologize to your daughter. And then
you remind your daughter that this boy is her friend, and when he hurts
her feelings she needs to tell him so that he won't do it again. Then
let them hug and make up, or whatever your neighborhood does.

Yelling from a distance does nothing but tell the boy that he did
something wrong.

Or it tells him that you are someone to be feared.

It doesn't fix the situation, and it doesn't take
steps towards preventing a recurrence. Furthermore, it doesn't send any
signals to your daughter!

Yeah, it does. It teaches her to yell at people.

And she needs both to be reassured that you
saw and saw that it wasn't unfair, but she also needs to know that you
support her AND that there are other things SHE can do besides running
away from a difficult situation. (Even if she doesn't really talk much
yet, she can still communicate. And she can LEARN the things that
she'll need to say in a few months when she CAN speak more clearly.)

I agree. Although I think the girl's response was just fine (in fact, I
think it was great she didn't let the situation get out of control), I do
agree that teaching her to be more assertive and that she can face a
difficult situation is better. In other words, it is better to learn to make
an unhealthy situation into a healthy one.

Jeff

My two cents,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

Beth Kevles wrote:
Hi --

In the first case, at the fast food joint ... I always say that if it's
not broke, don't fix it. Your daughter wasn't bothered by the teasing
she was getting. By going in, you signalled to her that something was
wrong. You should have left well-enough alone, since no one's feelings
were being hurt. Instead, ask her afterwards if she had fun playing.
If she says no ** because the big kids were mean ** then remind her that
if there are mean kids, she can get a grownup to help. But if she
wasn't bothered, drop the subject. (Her tactic of ignoring the big
kids' teasing, while unintentional, was also the best possible tactic to
use. When kids tease, ignoring is the best defense. The teasers get
bored and quit more often than not.)

Whew... Ignoring is one of the hardest things to do, because, and I
know this from personal experience - it usually does NOT work.

I was picked on for years, starting from when I was in first or second
grade, and no adult ever did anything except tell me to ignore it, and
yeah, I guess it eventually worked. When I went to high school.

I didn't find out *WHY* it doesn't work until I was in graduate school,
and I was taking a teach training course. Ignoring ONLY works if you
see it through until the offending behavior stops. If you EVER break
and react, then it ESCALATES the teasing. However, I found that even
staying stone-faced doesn't work, because the kids know they are
getting to you, even if you don't show it.

Trying to teach a mostly non-verbal 3-yr old these principles seems,
well, a tall order.

I don't think standing up for his kid was a bad thing. I do think
glaring, and being childish about it, was.

Because, even if his child wasn't harmed by their teasing, maybe, just
maybe, hearing some other adult (someone other than a parent or
teacher) say "hey, be nice" might get through. And if so, then maybe
his child is protected from FUTURE incidents.

Cathy Weeks

wrote in message
ups.com...
(...)

Two - Our next door neighbor has a little boy 3 years, 8 months. He's
rowdy, as he should be at that age. He's bigger and able to do more
than my girl. They mostly play "near" each other and don't interact a
whole lot. I watch closely and see him push my girl down for no reason
that I could ascertain. She runs off and cries.

What would you do?

(As soon as I saw the push, I yelled, "JOSEPH! - Don't push her!" At
this point his mother came out and asked what happened and Joseph had
to go inside. I think she was not happy that I yelled at her kid,
perhaps rightfully so.)

I think she is right to be concerned that you yelled at her kid. Unless he
was going to push her again immediately, it would have been better if you
either asked your daughter to come to you or ran to her.

Then, once your daughter calmed down, you two could talk to the boy and
explain he shouldn't push her again.

Instead, you taught your daughter that the way to deal with situations is to
yell, rather than to defuse the situation calmly. Plus, yelling at the boy
may have upset her, as well.

BTW, thanks for asking the questions. Although Beth and I sort of took a
different views on this (actually, I agree wtih her comments, but I am
looking at it from another angle), I think there are good things to discuss.

Jeff

Thanks for any responses.

Jack

wrote:

(I climbed up there and gave my girl a hug and shot rude glares at the
7 year olds. I stayed up there to buffer the pushing and provide some
fun interaction with my girl. One of the other parents complain and
the manager comes and tells me to get down.)

I would go up and play with my kid. I would NOT glare at the 7 year
olds, and would - if you heard anything further from then, gently say
that they need to be nice to people. And if a parent complained, I
would come down, bring my child with me, and then say loudly enough to
be heard, but not so loudly I'm shouting, that the older kids were
being really mean to her - so that the parents of the older kids hear.
Many parents get all uppity on behalf of their kids, but not all of
them. So maybe then the parents will actually a) discipline their kids
and b) supervise their kids.

Two - Our next door neighbor has a little boy 3 years, 8 months. He's
rowdy, as he should be at that age. He's bigger and able to do more
than my girl. They mostly play "near" each other and don't interact a
whole lot. I watch closely and see him push my girl down for no reason
that I could ascertain. She runs off and cries.

What would you do?

(As soon as I saw the push, I yelled, "JOSEPH! - Don't push her!" At
this point his mother came out and asked what happened and Joseph had
to go inside. I think she was not happy that I yelled at her kid,
perhaps rightfully so.)

Yelling was the wrong thing to do. For a number of reasons - 1) it's
not your kid, and b) it's ineffective anyway and c) most parents are
offended by their kid being yelled out by someone else, even when they
know and agree that their kid was in the wrong. However, going over to
him and talking nicely to him saying that "we use gentle hands on
people, no pushing" or something like that.

Cathy Weeks

Jeff wrote:

I agree. However, I would definitely not recommend climbing on the play
structure. it is meant for kids, not adults (darn!). In addition, a mother
or a father who is not with it might get the idea it is a good idea to
crawl up their and get stuck or break the thing.

In general, play structures are designed to hold adults just fine -
they have to be for safety. You take a whole mess of kids - and it
doesn't take very many of them before they add up to the wait of
several adults. And a crowded one has LOTs of kids. It used to be
that the structures did allow adults up there - I've been on several
where adults were allowed.

The problem is that they aren't designed for the same number of adults
as they are kids. 20 adults on the structure MIGHT pose a problem
(though probably not) whereas 20 kids doesn't. Generally there aren't
20 adults who WANT to go up there, though. ;-) (They kill your knees -
I'm not sure why it doesn't hurt a kid's knees, but does adults)

The play structures have to be strong enough to accomodate adults in
the event that an adult MUST go up there - if there's an emergency
situation, or if you have a rowdy kid who won't come down, and you have
to go up to collect them, or if you have a kid who is scared to get
down, or something.

Cathy Weeks

In article .com,
Cathy Weeks wrote:

The play structures have to be strong enough to accomodate adults in
the event that an adult MUST go up there - if there's an emergency
situation, or if you have a rowdy kid who won't come down, and you have
to go up to collect them, or if you have a kid who is scared to get
down, or something.


Yeah, I've been up a playstructure a few times to help a child down who
got up and was too scared to get back down (not always my own child --
I have "rescued" children of strangers when the parents felt they couldn't
fit and asked if I could help).

--Robyn

This is a fascinating thread. I didn't realize that "ignore" needs to
be followed through all the way to the end. (One of my kids has been
using "ignore" on a child who teased him a lot this year. And now the
child isn't teasing him anymore. I'm going to think on why it worked
....)

I still think that, in the case presented, where the child was NOT
bothered but ignored the whole thing with some bemusement, that the
parent shouldn't interfere.

In the more general case, where kids tease and the teased child *is*
hurt, I'd be curious to hear about specific instances where what a
parent-on-the-spot did was effective. For somewhat older kids, say 4th-
7th grades, does anyone have specific examples of what a KID did that
was effective?

I fianlly got good at parenting 3-year olds, and now my kids are older
so I'm in over my head again!
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.