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#131
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Excuse me????????????
"Chris" wrote in message news:yIojf.10501$dv.501@fed1read02... "Beverly" wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:23:32 GMT, "Moon Shyne" wrote: "Beverly" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:15:43 -0800, "Chris" wrote: "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:cmQif.10354$dv.9601@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:9tqif.10173$dv.2684@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Gini" wrote in message news:0f7if.118$gi3.46@trndny09... "Moon Shyne" wrote "Beverly" wrote ....................................... Were particular weekends specified in your visitation? By date? No, aside from his b'day and father's day - it was wide open, anytime he wanted to see them. ==== Didn't you take him to court to require him to stick with the visitation times or give you advanced notice of time changes? Only after he had repeatedly cancelled at the last minute any number of weekends - like a year's worth of last minute cancellations? And even then, the only specifications were every other weekend, and other times as requested - Do you believe that a child should spend an equal amount of time with both parents? If not, why not? There is no blanket answer to that one - in the case of one parent who simply refuses to take part in the children's lives, for example, then equal time simply isn't available. In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe. In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no? Which case? More than one was mentioned. In the case of the one immediately before my question; "In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe.". Wouldn't that depend on the type of abuse (child vs. spousal)? I dunno - when it comes to children, just what sort of, or how much, abuse is acceptable? Absolutely no type of abuse is ever acceptable, but I was agreeing with you and responding to Chris's comment "In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no?" It simply isn't as black and white as Chris's comment. Either time is reasonable/safe or it is NOT reasonable/safe. What's not black and white about that? Neither one works in ALL cases - that's what's so gray about it. Some people who have been abusive seek treatment when their behavior causes them to lose the most precious thing in their life, like a family. Alcoholics, for instance, can be abusive; however, once clean and sober through treatment, can be very safe to allow children to be with. A pedophile, on the other hand, cannot be treated in a way that makes them safe with children. "Safe" being a matter of opinion. Would you let a pedophile babysit your child? |
#132
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Excuse me????????????
"Chris" wrote in message news:z_ojf.10502$dv.5295@fed1read02... "Beverly" wrote in message ... On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:15:43 -0800, "Chris" wrote: "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:cmQif.10354$dv.9601@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:9tqif.10173$dv.2684@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Gini" wrote in message news:0f7if.118$gi3.46@trndny09... "Moon Shyne" wrote "Beverly" wrote ....................................... Were particular weekends specified in your visitation? By date? No, aside from his b'day and father's day - it was wide open, anytime he wanted to see them. ==== Didn't you take him to court to require him to stick with the visitation times or give you advanced notice of time changes? Only after he had repeatedly cancelled at the last minute any number of weekends - like a year's worth of last minute cancellations? And even then, the only specifications were every other weekend, and other times as requested - Do you believe that a child should spend an equal amount of time with both parents? If not, why not? There is no blanket answer to that one - in the case of one parent w ho simply refuses to take part in the children's lives, for example, then equal time simply isn't available. In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe. In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no? Which case? More than one was mentioned. In the case of the one immediately before my question; "In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe.". Wouldn't that depend on the type of abuse (child vs. spousal)? Or whether or not the abusive person has a mental illness which can be controlled (anger issues vs. pedophilia)? You tell me. Can you give me an example where some, but not equal, amount of time is reasonable or safe? In the case of a parent who has absented themself from their children's lives for any extended period of time, a shorter amount of time together, like a one day 'daytrip' or visit, would be far more reasonable then an extended amount of time, like a week-long visit. There's your example. |
#133
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Excuse me????????????
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:z_ojf.10502$dv.5295@fed1read02... "Beverly" wrote in message ... On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:15:43 -0800, "Chris" wrote: "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:cmQif.10354$dv.9601@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:9tqif.10173$dv.2684@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Gini" wrote in message news:0f7if.118$gi3.46@trndny09... "Moon Shyne" wrote "Beverly" wrote ....................................... Were particular weekends specified in your visitation? By date? No, aside from his b'day and father's day - it was wide open, anytime he wanted to see them. ==== Didn't you take him to court to require him to stick with the visitation times or give you advanced notice of time changes? Only after he had repeatedly cancelled at the last minute any number of weekends - like a year's worth of last minute cancellations? And even then, the only specifications were every other weekend, and other times as requested - Do you believe that a child should spend an equal amount of time with both parents? If not, why not? There is no blanket answer to that one - in the case of one parent w ho simply refuses to take part in the children's lives, for example, then equal time simply isn't available. In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe. In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no? Which case? More than one was mentioned. In the case of the one immediately before my question; "In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe.". Wouldn't that depend on the type of abuse (child vs. spousal)? Or whether or not the abusive person has a mental illness which can be controlled (anger issues vs. pedophilia)? You tell me. Can you give me an example where some, but not equal, amount of time is reasonable or safe? In the case of a parent who has absented themself from their children's lives for any extended period of time, a shorter amount of time together, like a one day 'daytrip' or visit, would be far more reasonable then an extended amount of time, like a week-long visit. There's your example. ==== So...the solution to lack of parenting time is to reduce the parenting time? === |
#134
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Excuse me????????????
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:20:35 -0800, "Chris" wrote:
"Beverly" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:23:32 GMT, "Moon Shyne" wrote: "Beverly" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:15:43 -0800, "Chris" wrote: "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:cmQif.10354$dv.9601@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:9tqif.10173$dv.2684@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Gini" wrote in message news:0f7if.118$gi3.46@trndny09... "Moon Shyne" wrote "Beverly" wrote ....................................... Were particular weekends specified in your visitation? By date? No, aside from his b'day and father's day - it was wide open, anytime he wanted to see them. ==== Didn't you take him to court to require him to stick with the visitation times or give you advanced notice of time changes? Only after he had repeatedly cancelled at the last minute any number of weekends - like a year's worth of last minute cancellations? And even then, the only specifications were every other weekend, and other times as requested - Do you believe that a child should spend an equal amount of time with both parents? If not, why not? There is no blanket answer to that one - in the case of one parent who simply refuses to take part in the children's lives, for example, then equal time simply isn't available. In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe. In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no? Which case? More than one was mentioned. In the case of the one immediately before my question; "In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe.". Wouldn't that depend on the type of abuse (child vs. spousal)? I dunno - when it comes to children, just what sort of, or how much, abuse is acceptable? Absolutely no type of abuse is ever acceptable, but I was agreeing with you and responding to Chris's comment "In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no?" It simply isn't as black and white as Chris's comment. Either time is reasonable/safe or it is NOT reasonable/safe. What's not black and white about that? Sometimes an abusive parent can spend a limited amount of time with their child with supervision. That would be SOME time that is reasonable and safe. It would be UNREASONABLE to have equal time if one of the parents needs supervision. Other times, there may be situations in which the parent abused the spouse but may be perfectly okay with the children in small doses of time. Some people who have been abusive seek treatment when their behavior causes them to lose the most precious thing in their life, like a family. Alcoholics, for instance, can be abusive; however, once clean and sober through treatment, can be very safe to allow children to be with. A pedophile, on the other hand, cannot be treated in a way that makes them safe with children. "Safe" being a matter of opinion. "Safe" is almost always a matter of opinion. Chances are, if a parent is abusive and the children are at risk, child protection is involved and will make a determination regarding "safe." Both conditions are considered incurable and both can be treated, but whereas an alcoholic's treatment consists of avoiding alcohol, a pedophile's treatment consists of avoiding children. These are just examples. Wouldn't that be more accurately stated "an alcoholic's treatment consists of avoiding (the abuse of) alcohol, a pedophile's treatment consists of avoiding (the abuse of) children"? Actually no. Alcoholics are taught to avoid situations where alcohol is even around to avoid the temptation. Alcoholics cannot drink a little, avoiding the abuse, and remain "on the wagon." Pedophiles in treatment are taught to avoid situations where children will be for the same reasons. This is exactly why convicted pedophiles have such stringent rules on where they may live post incarceration such as a certain distance from any school or other places where children are likely to be. They may never be employed in a place that caters to children. The goal is no contact with children whatsoever, but it is certainly harder to avoid children than it is to avoid alcohol. Or whether or not the abusive person has a mental illness which can be controlled (anger issues vs. pedophilia)? It would have to be on a case by case basis. And who would be the judge? By whomever is determing the amount of time spent with each parent, I suppose - with the general theory that if the parents can agree, great, and if they can't or won't agree, then it goes through the legal paces. I'm sure you can work out your own ideas on this one, Chris. I don't think I ever said no to any request to see the kids, with the exception of one mother's day when he called just before lunch, and we were heading out, having already made plans for the day. ==== |
#135
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Excuse me????????????
"Gini" wrote in message news:EXrjf.1475$s96.1397@trndny01... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:z_ojf.10502$dv.5295@fed1read02... "Beverly" wrote in message ... On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:15:43 -0800, "Chris" wrote: "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:cmQif.10354$dv.9601@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:9tqif.10173$dv.2684@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Gini" wrote in message news:0f7if.118$gi3.46@trndny09... "Moon Shyne" wrote "Beverly" wrote ....................................... Were particular weekends specified in your visitation? By date? No, aside from his b'day and father's day - it was wide open, anytime he wanted to see them. ==== Didn't you take him to court to require him to stick with the visitation times or give you advanced notice of time changes? Only after he had repeatedly cancelled at the last minute any number of weekends - like a year's worth of last minute cancellations? And even then, the only specifications were every other weekend, and other times as requested - Do you believe that a child should spend an equal amount of time with both parents? If not, why not? There is no blanket answer to that one - in the case of one parent w ho simply refuses to take part in the children's lives, for example, then equal time simply isn't available. In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe. In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no? Which case? More than one was mentioned. In the case of the one immediately before my question; "In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe.". Wouldn't that depend on the type of abuse (child vs. spousal)? Or whether or not the abusive person has a mental illness which can be controlled (anger issues vs. pedophilia)? You tell me. Can you give me an example where some, but not equal, amount of time is reasonable or safe? In the case of a parent who has absented themself from their children's lives for any extended period of time, a shorter amount of time together, like a one day 'daytrip' or visit, would be far more reasonable then an extended amount of time, like a week-long visit. There's your example. ==== So...the solution to lack of parenting time is to reduce the parenting time? === That *certainly* wasn't the question I was answering. Chris asked for an example where some, but not equal, time was reasonable, and I answered. |
#136
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Excuse me????????????
"Gini" wrote in message news:EXrjf.1475$s96.1397@trndny01... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:z_ojf.10502$dv.5295@fed1read02... snip In the case of a parent who has absented themself from their children's lives for any extended period of time, a shorter amount of time together, like a one day 'daytrip' or visit, would be far more reasonable then an extended amount of time, like a week-long visit. There's your example. ==== So...the solution to lack of parenting time is to reduce the parenting time? === As an example (and Teachermom, I apologize for dragging you into this) - Teach has posted about how her husband was notified that he had a 13 year old child. Child doesn't know dad, doesn't have any relationship with dad. Dad doesn't know child, doesn't have any relationship with child. Do you think it's reasonable to simply have child come live with dad for a week or longer, or is it more reasonable to have a shorter amount of time, like a one day visit? |
#137
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Excuse me????????????
"Gini" wrote in message news:EXrjf.1475$s96.1397@trndny01... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:z_ojf.10502$dv.5295@fed1read02... "Beverly" wrote in message ... On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:15:43 -0800, "Chris" wrote: "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:cmQif.10354$dv.9601@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:9tqif.10173$dv.2684@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Gini" wrote in message news:0f7if.118$gi3.46@trndny09... "Moon Shyne" wrote "Beverly" wrote ....................................... Were particular weekends specified in your visitation? By date? No, aside from his b'day and father's day - it was wide open, anytime he wanted to see them. ==== Didn't you take him to court to require him to stick with the visitation times or give you advanced notice of time changes? Only after he had repeatedly cancelled at the last minute any number of weekends - like a year's worth of last minute cancellations? And even then, the only specifications were every other weekend, and other times as requested - Do you believe that a child should spend an equal amount of time with both parents? If not, why not? There is no blanket answer to that one - in the case of one parent w ho simply refuses to take part in the children's lives, for example, then equal time simply isn't available. In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe. In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no? Which case? More than one was mentioned. In the case of the one immediately before my question; "In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe.". Wouldn't that depend on the type of abuse (child vs. spousal)? Or whether or not the abusive person has a mental illness which can be controlled (anger issues vs. pedophilia)? You tell me. Can you give me an example where some, but not equal, amount of time is reasonable or safe? In the case of a parent who has absented themself from their children's lives for any extended period of time, a shorter amount of time together, like a one day 'daytrip' or visit, would be far more reasonable then an extended amount of time, like a week-long visit. There's your example. ==== So...the solution to lack of parenting time is to reduce the parenting time? YUP! Just like the solution to marital relationships is a legal separation. LOL === |
#138
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Excuse me????????????
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:z_ojf.10502$dv.5295@fed1read02... "Beverly" wrote in message ... On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:15:43 -0800, "Chris" wrote: "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:cmQif.10354$dv.9601@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:9tqif.10173$dv.2684@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Gini" wrote in message news:0f7if.118$gi3.46@trndny09... "Moon Shyne" wrote "Beverly" wrote ....................................... Were particular weekends specified in your visitation? By date? No, aside from his b'day and father's day - it was wide open, anytime he wanted to see them. ==== Didn't you take him to court to require him to stick with the visitation times or give you advanced notice of time changes? Only after he had repeatedly cancelled at the last minute any number of weekends - like a year's worth of last minute cancellations? And even then, the only specifications were every other weekend, and other times as requested - Do you believe that a child should spend an equal amount of time with both parents? If not, why not? There is no blanket answer to that one - in the case of one parent w ho simply refuses to take part in the children's lives, for example, then equal time simply isn't available. In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe. In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no? Which case? More than one was mentioned. In the case of the one immediately before my question; "In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe.". Wouldn't that depend on the type of abuse (child vs. spousal)? Or whether or not the abusive person has a mental illness which can be controlled (anger issues vs. pedophilia)? You tell me. Can you give me an example where some, but not equal, amount of time is reasonable or safe? In the case of a parent who has absented themself from their children's lives for any extended period of time, a shorter amount of time together, like a one day 'daytrip' or visit, would be far more reasonable then an extended amount of time, like a week-long visit. I was making reference to the "abusive" parent. (see above) And to clarify matters, when you said "abusive", I thought it was implied that such abuse was CHILD abuse. Hence, my question. There's your example. |
#139
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Excuse me????????????
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:yIojf.10501$dv.501@fed1read02... "Beverly" wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:23:32 GMT, "Moon Shyne" wrote: "Beverly" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:15:43 -0800, "Chris" wrote: "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:cmQif.10354$dv.9601@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:9tqif.10173$dv.2684@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Gini" wrote in message news:0f7if.118$gi3.46@trndny09... "Moon Shyne" wrote "Beverly" wrote ....................................... Were particular weekends specified in your visitation? By date? No, aside from his b'day and father's day - it was wide open, anytime he wanted to see them. ==== Didn't you take him to court to require him to stick with the visitation times or give you advanced notice of time changes? Only after he had repeatedly cancelled at the last minute any number of weekends - like a year's worth of last minute cancellations? And even then, the only specifications were every other weekend, and other times as requested - Do you believe that a child should spend an equal amount of time with both parents? If not, why not? There is no blanket answer to that one - in the case of one parent who simply refuses to take part in the children's lives, for example, then equal time simply isn't available. In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe. In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no? Which case? More than one was mentioned. In the case of the one immediately before my question; "In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe.". Wouldn't that depend on the type of abuse (child vs. spousal)? I dunno - when it comes to children, just what sort of, or how much, abuse is acceptable? Absolutely no type of abuse is ever acceptable, but I was agreeing with you and responding to Chris's comment "In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no?" It simply isn't as black and white as Chris's comment. Either time is reasonable/safe or it is NOT reasonable/safe. What's not black and white about that? Neither one works in ALL cases - Strawman. The discussion is NOT about "all" cases; it is about ANY case. And the fact remains that either time is reasonable/safe or it is NOT reasonable/safe in EVERY case. There is no third option. Black and white. that's what's so gray about it. Some people who have been abusive seek treatment when their behavior causes them to lose the most precious thing in their life, like a family. Alcoholics, for instance, can be abusive; however, once clean and sober through treatment, can be very safe to allow children to be with. A pedophile, on the other hand, cannot be treated in a way that makes them safe with children. "Safe" being a matter of opinion. Would you let a pedophile babysit your child? The answer to such question is irrelevant. "Safe" STILL is a matter of opinion. |
#140
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Excuse me????????????
"Beverly" wrote in message ... On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:20:35 -0800, "Chris" wrote: "Beverly" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:23:32 GMT, "Moon Shyne" wrote: "Beverly" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:15:43 -0800, "Chris" wrote: "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:cmQif.10354$dv.9601@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Chris" wrote in message news:9tqif.10173$dv.2684@fed1read02... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Gini" wrote in message news:0f7if.118$gi3.46@trndny09... "Moon Shyne" wrote "Beverly" wrote ....................................... Were particular weekends specified in your visitation? By date? No, aside from his b'day and father's day - it was wide open, anytime he wanted to see them. ==== Didn't you take him to court to require him to stick with the visitation times or give you advanced notice of time changes? Only after he had repeatedly cancelled at the last minute any number of weekends - like a year's worth of last minute cancellations? And even then, the only specifications were every other weekend, and other times as requested - Do you believe that a child should spend an equal amount of time with both parents? If not, why not? There is no blanket answer to that one - in the case of one parent who simply refuses to take part in the children's lives, for example, then equal time simply isn't available. In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe. In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no? Which case? More than one was mentioned. In the case of the one immediately before my question; "In the case of one parent who is abusive, for example, equal time isn't reasonable or safe.". Wouldn't that depend on the type of abuse (child vs. spousal)? I dunno - when it comes to children, just what sort of, or how much, abuse is acceptable? Absolutely no type of abuse is ever acceptable, but I was agreeing with you and responding to Chris's comment "In that case, NO time is reasonable or safe, no?" It simply isn't as black and white as Chris's comment. Either time is reasonable/safe or it is NOT reasonable/safe. What's not black and white about that? Sometimes an abusive parent can spend a limited amount of time with their child with supervision. That would be SOME time that is reasonable and safe. It would be UNREASONABLE to have equal time if one of the parents needs supervision. Why? Other times, there may be situations in which the parent abused the spouse but may be perfectly okay with the children in small doses of time. Why not equal? Some people who have been abusive seek treatment when their behavior causes them to lose the most precious thing in their life, like a family. Alcoholics, for instance, can be abusive; however, once clean and sober through treatment, can be very safe to allow children to be with. A pedophile, on the other hand, cannot be treated in a way that makes them safe with children. "Safe" being a matter of opinion. "Safe" is almost always a matter of opinion. Chances are, if a parent is abusive and the children are at risk, child protection is involved and will make a determination regarding "safe." Aint' THAT a shame! Both conditions are considered incurable and both can be treated, but whereas an alcoholic's treatment consists of avoiding alcohol, a pedophile's treatment consists of avoiding children. These are just examples. Wouldn't that be more accurately stated "an alcoholic's treatment consists of avoiding (the abuse of) alcohol, a pedophile's treatment consists of avoiding (the abuse of) children"? Actually no. Alcoholics are taught to avoid situations where alcohol is even around to avoid the temptation. Alcoholics cannot drink a little, avoiding the abuse, and remain "on the wagon." Yes they can. They can also choose to resist the temptation. Pedophiles in treatment are taught to avoid situations where children will be for the same reasons. This is exactly why convicted pedophiles have such stringent rules on where they may live post incarceration such as a certain distance from any school or other places where children are likely to be. They may never be employed in a place that caters to children. The goal is no contact with children whatsoever, but it is certainly harder to avoid children than it is to avoid alcohol. Irrelevant. A pedophile can be around children and choose to NOT abuse them. Or whether or not the abusive person has a mental illness which can be controlled (anger issues vs. pedophilia)? It would have to be on a case by case basis. And who would be the judge? By whomever is determing the amount of time spent with each parent, I suppose - with the general theory that if the parents can agree, great, and if they can't or won't agree, then it goes through the legal paces. I'm sure you can work out your own ideas on this one, Chris. I don't think I ever said no to any request to see the kids, with the exception of one mother's day when he called just before lunch, and we were heading out, having already made plans for the day. ==== |
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