A disconnect at camp

On 10 Aug 2006 13:52:50 -0700, Caledonia wrote:

Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 12:02:00 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.

But using a land line to report problems to your parents isn't "at
will". Sorry, but with the invention of new and better(?) ways to
communicate, the perceived 'need' for immediacy (thanks for the
phrase, Banty ;-) has been born. If we got along okay without it
before, then kids can get along without it now.

Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

Barbara

I will grant that payphones aren't as abundant as they used to be.
However, a camp would make sure a phone is available for staff, and
for the campers to contact their parents, if necessary.

Nan

Our G/S camp in town no longer has a payphone.

But on another topic entirely, when was the last time you *saw* a
payphone in an urban environment? For me, it was '92 (Boston's
Chinatown/Combat Zone)....haven't seen one of those things in years.


Agreed on the lack of phones in urban environments. On the
other hand, I still see ( and occasionally use, since we like to
travel to rural places ) plenty of payphones in environments
where they're not likely to get boosted by thugs every other
day. Particularly in areas where there is no cell service,
which, IMHO, is where children's camps should be located, anyhow. ;-)


- Rich

--
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
http://www/mulveyfamily.com/kids

user wrote:
It's a safe bet that if there isn't a payphone, then at least
there's an office phone for the staff.

And it's a safe bet that the staff won't allow the children to use it.

So unless you're going to
assert that the *entire* camp staff is going to actively prevent
a child from using the phone, when they truly need it, well,
that reasoning just won't fly.


That's exactly what happened to me and a friend of mine. We needed to
call our parents, couldn't and so had to suffer through the remaining 2
weeks YMCA of camp until we could get home. I won't post details of
what happened but suffice it to say it was similar to another incident
posted in this thread. Consequently there is no way in hell any child
of mine will go anywhere without the means to *independently* contact
me if s/he needs to. And I pray to God s/he never needs to.

-L.

bizby40 wrote:
"Barbara" wrote in message
oups.com...
Its really difficult to respond when everyone here keeps changing
their
positions.

I haven't given my position yet, but I am also in the "no cell phone"
camp. If there were no downsides, then I'd say, "Sure, let 'em have
'em." But there are. There is a discipline issue of kids using them
when they're not supposed to. There is the problem of parents or
friends calling the camper. There is the possibility of losing the
thing in the woods. There is the fact that many of the cabins/tents
the kids stay in have no electricity to charge the darn things. There
is the "haves vs. have nots" dynamic set up.

Sure the camp might be able to work with or around all these things,
but I don't blame the camp if they don't want to. It wouldn't make me
suspicious that there were things going on that they didn't want
reported. Of course you and Lyn don't have to send your kid to camp
if you don't agree with their policies. I wouldn't want to send mine
to a camp where all parental contact was forbidden. But if there were
two similar camps and one allowed cell phones and the other didn't,
I'd send mine to the "no cell phones" camp.

Actually, I've never given my position either. All I've said is that I
see the arguments on both sides, and don't think that its inherently
unreasonable, or that it inherently represents bad parenting, to send a
cell phone to overnight camp. One is already starting to lobby for
overnight camp for next summer, but I'm pretty sure its going to have
to wait another year. At that point, I'll weigh the pros and cons,
find out what alternates exist for emergency (or even non-emergency)
communication with parents, look at different camps and their different
rules, speak to parents who have sent to the various camps we're
considering, and make a decision.

Barbara

Barbara wrote:

Its really difficult to respond when everyone here keeps changing their
positions.

It started out as *anyone who would send a cell phone to camp with
their kids is a horrible parent intent upon keeping their kids too
close.*

Lyn's response -- sometimes bad things happen at camp and kids need to
contact their parents

Response -- Noooooooo. WE'VE been to camp, and nothing awful never
happens there.

My response -- sure it does. Here's some examples.

Response -- well, of COURSE those things can happen, and kids can go to
their counselors or write

My response -- maybe not. Here are some examples.

[Alternate response -- well, a *good* parent would screen for those
things, and that would *never* happen. My response -- you can try, but
don't expect to always succeed.]

Response -- well, OF COURSE there may be situations such as that. They
can CALL! its perfectly reasonable and responsible parenting to expect
that your child will be able to use PAY phone if there's an emergency.
But if a parent provides a CELL phone for that same emergency, well,
then, that parent is a terrible parent, deserving of insults of the
type that are practically Banty's trademark.

Typical bull**** Moo-think inherent in this group. Couldn't think out
of the box if their life depended on it.



Sorry, I don't buy it. If there are times when a TELEPHONE is needed
for emergencies, then it is not inherently unreasonable for parents to
provide a CELL PHONE for those emergencies. (And surely you know that
you can disable text messaging, and even program certain phones to only
call certain emergency numbers.)

The only way to be *sure* your child can call you in crisis is to
provide them with a cell phone. (Barring someone bigger than them
taking the phone away from them, that is.) It's an insurance policy I
won't live without. I find it rather abhorrent that so many people in
this thread turn the welfare and safety of their kids over to virtual
strangers, all the while leaving their children with virtually no
*concrete* means of recourse should something happen.

-L.

user wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 13:52:50 -0700, Caledonia wrote:

Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 12:02:00 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.

But using a land line to report problems to your parents isn't "at
will". Sorry, but with the invention of new and better(?) ways to
communicate, the perceived 'need' for immediacy (thanks for the
phrase, Banty ;-) has been born. If we got along okay without it
before, then kids can get along without it now.

Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

Barbara

I will grant that payphones aren't as abundant as they used to be.
However, a camp would make sure a phone is available for staff, and
for the campers to contact their parents, if necessary.

Nan

Our G/S camp in town no longer has a payphone.

But on another topic entirely, when was the last time you *saw* a
payphone in an urban environment? For me, it was '92 (Boston's
Chinatown/Combat Zone)....haven't seen one of those things in years.


Agreed on the lack of phones in urban environments. On the
other hand, I still see ( and occasionally use, since we like to
travel to rural places ) plenty of payphones in environments
where they're not likely to get boosted by thugs every other
day. Particularly in areas where there is no cell service,
which, IMHO, is where children's camps should be located, anyhow. ;-)


Interesting -- I live in Rural Environment, and the payphone has been
out of the General Store for many years now...'Bout the same time they
stopped selling film. Hmmm.

Caledonia

Banty wrote:
Exactly. The only advantage to a cell phone is immediacy. And it's the
perceived need for immediacy that I question.

Banty

Well if your kid was getting ****ed up the ass then maybe you might get
a clue as to why "immediacy" is necessary.

-L.

On 10 Aug 2006 14:22:25 -0700, "L." wrote:


Banty wrote:
Exactly. The only advantage to a cell phone is immediacy. And it's the
perceived need for immediacy that I question.

Banty

Well if your kid was getting ****ed up the ass then maybe you might get
a clue as to why "immediacy" is necessary.

-L.

Your penchant for hyperbole is so charming.

Nan

On 10 Aug 2006 13:21:05 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:

Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 12:02:00 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.

But using a land line to report problems to your parents isn't "at
will". Sorry, but with the invention of new and better(?) ways to
communicate, the perceived 'need' for immediacy (thanks for the
phrase, Banty ;-) has been born. If we got along okay without it
before, then kids can get along without it now.

Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

Barbara

I will grant that payphones aren't as abundant as they used to be.
However, a camp would make sure a phone is available for staff, and
for the campers to contact their parents, if necessary.

Nan

Its really difficult to respond when everyone here keeps changing their
positions.

I haven't seen that.

It started out as *anyone who would send a cell phone to camp with
their kids is a horrible parent intent upon keeping their kids too
close.*

No, it started out with an article that stated cell phones weren't
allowed. Many of us agreed it was a decent policy.

Lyn's response -- sometimes bad things happen at camp and kids need to
contact their parents

Lyn's response prompted more thought. Not having been abused at camp,
it's not something I'd have thought of.

Response -- Noooooooo. WE'VE been to camp, and nothing awful never
happens there.

Bull****. Yeah, I said I've been to camp and nothing happened, but I
also pointed out that communicating with parents *IS* possible.

My response -- sure it does. Here's some examples.

Response -- well, of COURSE those things can happen, and kids can go to
their counselors or write

I specifically mentioned calling home.

My response -- maybe not. Here are some examples.

[Alternate response -- well, a *good* parent would screen for those
things, and that would *never* happen. My response -- you can try, but
don't expect to always succeed.]

It's part of parenting. You teach your child how to deal with life.

Response -- well, OF COURSE there may be situations such as that. They
can CALL! its perfectly reasonable and responsible parenting to expect
that your child will be able to use PAY phone if there's an emergency.
But if a parent provides a CELL phone for that same emergency, well,
then, that parent is a terrible parent, deserving of insults of the
type that are practically Banty's trademark.

Sorry, I don't buy it. If there are times when a TELEPHONE is needed
for emergencies, then it is not inherently unreasonable for parents to
provide a CELL PHONE for those emergencies. (And surely you know that
you can disable text messaging, and even program certain phones to only
call certain emergency numbers.)

And I don't buy that cell phones are a necessity. We got along
without them before their conception, we can get along without them
know. I suspect yours and Lyn's positions are colored by your
personal experiences. That is understandable, but not necessarily
compelling enough to argue that cell phones are necessary.

Nan

On 10 Aug 2006 14:19:07 -0700, "L." wrote:


Barbara wrote:

Its really difficult to respond when everyone here keeps changing their
positions.

It started out as *anyone who would send a cell phone to camp with
their kids is a horrible parent intent upon keeping their kids too
close.*

Lyn's response -- sometimes bad things happen at camp and kids need to
contact their parents

Response -- Noooooooo. WE'VE been to camp, and nothing awful never
happens there.

My response -- sure it does. Here's some examples.

Response -- well, of COURSE those things can happen, and kids can go to
their counselors or write

My response -- maybe not. Here are some examples.

[Alternate response -- well, a *good* parent would screen for those
things, and that would *never* happen. My response -- you can try, but
don't expect to always succeed.]

Response -- well, OF COURSE there may be situations such as that. They
can CALL! its perfectly reasonable and responsible parenting to expect
that your child will be able to use PAY phone if there's an emergency.
But if a parent provides a CELL phone for that same emergency, well,
then, that parent is a terrible parent, deserving of insults of the
type that are practically Banty's trademark.

Typical bull**** Moo-think inherent in this group. Couldn't think out
of the box if their life depended on it.



Sorry, I don't buy it. If there are times when a TELEPHONE is needed
for emergencies, then it is not inherently unreasonable for parents to
provide a CELL PHONE for those emergencies. (And surely you know that
you can disable text messaging, and even program certain phones to only
call certain emergency numbers.)

The only way to be *sure* your child can call you in crisis is to
provide them with a cell phone. (Barring someone bigger than them
taking the phone away from them, that is.) It's an insurance policy I
won't live without. I find it rather abhorrent that so many people in
this thread turn the welfare and safety of their kids over to virtual
strangers, all the while leaving their children with virtually no
*concrete* means of recourse should something happen.

-L.

Oh, boo-hoo. My mother was a *HORRIBLE MOTHER* because she sent me to
camp and I didn't have a cell phone. The HORROR!

Nan

On 10 Aug 2006 13:52:50 -0700, "Caledonia"
wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 12:02:00 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 10 Aug 2006 10:47:09 -0700, "Barbara"
wrote:


IF the child feels comfortable speaking to the counselor. IF the
counselor gives a fl***g f***, as opposed to being some teenager who
really just wants to get through the summer the easiest way and collect
his tips at the end. IF its not the counselor who is the problem. IF
the situation is not one that needs immediate attention.

But I'm glad to see that you admit that reporting a problem to mom and
dad is a viable option. The cell phone is simply a faster means that a
letter that's going to take several days to reach the parents. And
honestly, Banty, no one expects the kid to call while an incident is
occurring. They would call in a private moment, later on.

IME, there was always a phone available in the camp office, or a pay
phone outside. We were able to use it if we needed to. Nobody was
prevented from using it, if they felt it was necessary. Believe it or
not, we were able to communicate problems to our parents before cell
phones were invented!

But Nan, the argument began with the statement that kids should NOT be
able to call their parents at will while at summer camp. *We need to
cut that cord* the battlecry went. Ergo, no cell phone. If kids are
able to call home at will using a landline, how could it *possibly*
change the entire nature of the experience to permit them to use a cell
phone for the same purpose? You can't have it both ways.

But using a land line to report problems to your parents isn't "at
will". Sorry, but with the invention of new and better(?) ways to
communicate, the perceived 'need' for immediacy (thanks for the
phrase, Banty ;-) has been born. If we got along okay without it
before, then kids can get along without it now.

Moreover, payphones are not as available today as they were even 5
years ago. I would never count on one being available if I needed it.

Barbara

I will grant that payphones aren't as abundant as they used to be.
However, a camp would make sure a phone is available for staff, and
for the campers to contact their parents, if necessary.

Nan

Our G/S camp in town no longer has a payphone.

But on another topic entirely, when was the last time you *saw* a
payphone in an urban environment? For me, it was '92 (Boston's
Chinatown/Combat Zone)....haven't seen one of those things in years.

The last time I was in town, which was 2 days ago.

Nan