Help! Toddler left in car question

"nimue" ) writes:
I don't. I think it has a lot to do withthe situation at hand. I guess I
think that parents shouldn't do things that child care providers shouldn't
do. I was a child care provider and I know that I would have been fired if
I left a toddler alone in a car unattended and unwatched in a so-so
neighborhood near a major road for 20 minutes. If that is unacceptable (and
indeed, illegal) for a child care provider to do, why is it okay for a
parent to do.

Ah, now I see the situation better.

The thing is, different families have different standards.
For example, when it comes to swimming, I'm more careful
than some other parents. I insist on watching the children
every minute, even though there's also a lifeguard at
the pool, up to higher ages and higher swimming ability
than some other parents. I don't take on the responsibility
of watching more than about 2 or 3 children at once in a
crowded pool. But some parents will take a group,
e.g. for a birthday party, and just let them go in the
pool with pretty much just the lifeguard watching closely
enough to prevent drowning.

Some parents will be more careful about some things, and
other parents will be more careful about other things.

When I'm looking after other peoples'
children, e.g. when my kids have friends over,
I sometimes apply very strict safety rules because
I don't know what rules the parents of those kids
follow and I don't want to break any of their rules.
So the rules are sometimes stricter than when
I'm with just my kids. For example, I used to let
my kids sometimes take off their shoes at the playground
which is a risk due to broken glass, but if we had
a friend there too I would make them all keep their shoes
on.

Child care providers pretty much have to follow high
standards that would satisfy every parent.
Otherwise they don't have a job.

Parents are doing day-to-day life, not being
an employee of someone. Customs differ from place
to place. The things that are considered reasonably
safe are chosen based not only on actual levels of
risk, but also on customs, values, beliefs etc.

Also, a child care provider may be able to concentrate
on their job while they're working, while a parent
may have to carry on their life while looking after
their children: buying groceries, earning money,
shopping, taking a shower, sleeping, finding time
to talk to friends, look at houses etc.

I heard about someone (maybe on this newsgroup, I forget)
who was a teacher and thought she knew how to discipline
kids. But then she had kids of her own and found that
they didn't obey her the way the kids in her classroom
did. The parent-child relationship is different from the
teacher-child relationship. So then she stopped thinking
poorly of parents who had trouble controlling their kids.

Of course, this is about safety, not discipline, but
I hope you can see a parallel.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"nimue" ) writes:
Oh, you have a problem. This is ridiculous. All I did was attempt to voice
my concerns.

No, you did more than that. Before your friend left you that
furious message on your answering machine, you replied to her
statement about your husband's seat belt, and you used the
word "defenseless" when you did that -- which I feel touches
a nerve or pushes a hot button, I'm not sure if I can explain
exactly why. You chose not to accept her point about the
seat belt, but argued against it.

When you argue against your friends' point, she tends to
do the same thing and argue against your point. If you
want her to turn around and start believing something she
has a big emotional investment in not believing, it really
helps if you set an example and do exactly that yourself
first, and show that you're willing to listen to her,
agree with her on some things and understand her feelings.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:09:46 GMT, "nimue"
wrote:

I just don't think I would ever think it was all right to leave
my baby unattended and unwatched in a car parked on
the street for 20 minutes. BTW -- that was a CHOICE
my friend made

While many of us would not do this, it's *not* so wildly
unsafe as you want to make it out to be. And, of course,
the baby is fine. Nothing happened to harm her.

Let it go...

Your decisions now have to do with figuring out *if* you
want to continue the friendship and if so, how to go about
making your friend understand that what you thought wasn't
*wrong,* but the way your phrased it may have been.

Your other decision has to do with how you will go about
expressing your opinion with a friend should a similar
situation happen again.

It's really not important how unsafe the action taken was
*now* especially since there was no untoward result.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"nimue" ) writes:
You know what? Life is too short for that kind of stupidity.

Sorry, but I do not agree. I do not think you understand the situation and
I do think you are projecting something personal onto me. I also find you
as irrational and judgmental as you find me.

nimue, I don't think you used words like "stupidity" in
talking to your friend. I think you did well, and that
your friend shouldn't have yelled at you. It's just that
your friend (and many other parents) feel so sensitive about
this sort of issue that it requires being almost perfect
with diplomatic language, timing etc. to manage it without
things blowing up.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"nimue" ) writes:
Something like this happened in NYC, where a Danish woman left her baby
outside a restaurant in its carriage. Child services were called in, etc.
Things are done differently in different places. However, my friend is an
American, so she can't use the "I'm Danish" excuse!

No, but if it's done regularly in Denmark, it can't be
all that "wildly unsafe".
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"Ruth Baltopoulos" ) writes:
You might just tell your friend that you love
her and were concerned about her child, as she was doing
something that seemed very dangerous to you, particularly in
light of your child care background, but that you did not
want to lose her friendship over it.

I think the friend might take this as another
repetition of the same message and take offense
all over again. If it can be reworded with
fewer words devoted to repeating the original
message it might be a productive thing to say.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"nimue" ) writes:
I really am not concerned about being right. I just want her daughter to be
protected and I do not think she was protective enough in this case. Maybe
I am wrong, but I have to speak when I am concerned.

Then it's important to speak in the most effective way possible.
I've benefitted from learning Thomas Gordon's "Effectiveness
Training" method. What I told you in another message was
based on that.

The more sensitive she is about the issue, the more
you need to get your technique just right if you want
to succeed in influencing her.

What if when you speak up, it leads to her making up
more arguments in her head and being even more convinced
that she was right? I would still speak up anyway,
maybe; I would feel I was clearing my conscience.

Can you catch her being good? Can you notice
when your friend follows a safety rule that you
might have thought she wouldn't follow, and then
praise her for it? "Good idea -- protecting her
from that car. You never know what might happen."
(Casually, and without implying that she's not
as good as everyone else with safety.)
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"nimue" ) writes:
I want the baby to be safe. The end. That's it. It seems to me that the
baby is safer in the house with her mother than unwatched in the car on the
street.

You also feel hurt about being yelled at by your friend and
about some people on this newsgroup not seeming to understand
what you're trying to say.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

Nan ) writes:
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:07:49 -0600, "Tori M."
scribbled:

soon this child is going to be parked in the road improperly while half
naked in a convertable with the windows down and on a hill with a bad
emergency break under a tree with a bee hive and an angry hungry bear nearby
while the mother went inside to get a manicure and pedicure. GET OVER IT!
You either want to be friends with her or not and when you have your own
children you can make your own choices.

Tori

This really is unfair, Tori. She's being accused of changing her
story, and I haven't seen that at all.

I think that was unnecessary, Tori. She does want to be
friends with her. Of couse she can make her own choices when
she has her own children; she can and does also make her own
choices now. Non-parents have a right to hold opinions and to
voice those opinions when they choose to.

Fwiw, I don't care for non-parents giving me advice, but there truly
are some issues about safety that are so basic and so well-known that
anyone bringing it up should be listened to and not blown off just
because they're not a parent.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, whether they're a
parent or not. I had opinions before I was a parent, and
some of those opinions didn't change when I became a parent.
I didn't appreciate being told that I would think
differently when I became a parent -- as if I have to
wait years before settling a minor difference of
opinion. I could have replied that there were some parents
who agreed with my point of view.


--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"nimue" ) writes:
I assume you wouldn't have done it because you feel it is unsafe or wrong.
I assume you wouldn't have said anything because you feel that saying
something is wrong, if not unsafe. I wonder how you can think this is
unsafe, but still not say anything when you see someone you love doing it.

Well, you see, "safe" and "unsafe" aren't true-false,
black-and-white categories, but a spectrum: more safe
or less safe. Whether a risk is worth taking depends no
one's values -- including how pressed for time one is.
A rich person with lots of leisure time can afford to spend
time preventing rare risks; a poor person who can
hardly find time to eat might just take the risks.
Everybody takes some risks.

If she were doing something unsafe that concerend only herself, I would keep
my mouth shut and have. It's just that it concerns her daughter. There is
no way I could have had a 15 year friendship with this woman if I couldn't
accept, and she couldn't accept, that people have varying opinions. Lord
knows we do. This time, though, my concern for her daughter made me speak.

If you want to imagine how people can do that, you can
try thinking a lot about how you can say nothing when
people endanger themselves.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.