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better confidence builder: be smartest in slower class or median insmarter class?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 28th 08, 11:25 PM posted to misc.kids
pete
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default better confidence builder: be smartest in slower class or median insmarter class?

Our 10 year old son is in the 4th grade at a private shool. We
suspect that our 10-year old's specific class is substantially less
acedemically gifted/oriented then is our son; our third-grade
daughter's class is doing math problems much more advanced than that
of our 4th grade boy's class. Our sone typically gets all his math
and reading work none in the first 25% of the class time and reads for
pleasure for the balance of the time. He is not being pushed to work
hard and still gets top grades. Our son and his friends are the
athletes in the class and as he cares to be connected with them, will
do most anything to avoid circumstances that might, in his perception,
cause him embarrassment in their eyes - this mostly pertains to his
wanting to hide his many books to disguise his voracious reading
habits because his school friends do not think learning is 'cool'.
Left in this environment, we fear our son might possibly succumb to
additional pressures and cease to care about obtaining good grades in
school. 1.) should we move him to a more acedemically challenging
school? 2.) will doing so burn him out on learning altogether? 3.)
when is a child better off being the be smartest in slower class vesus
being average or less in class of smarter children? 4.) at what age
does this stuff matter...can one wait until high school and what are
the risks of leaving him in current environment?
  #2  
Old January 28th 08, 11:59 PM posted to misc.kids
Ericka Kammerer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,293
Default better confidence builder: be smartest in slower class or medianin smarter class?

pete wrote:
Our 10 year old son is in the 4th grade at a private shool. We
suspect that our 10-year old's specific class is substantially less
acedemically gifted/oriented then is our son; our third-grade
daughter's class is doing math problems much more advanced than that
of our 4th grade boy's class. Our sone typically gets all his math
and reading work none in the first 25% of the class time and reads for
pleasure for the balance of the time. He is not being pushed to work
hard and still gets top grades. Our son and his friends are the
athletes in the class and as he cares to be connected with them, will
do most anything to avoid circumstances that might, in his perception,
cause him embarrassment in their eyes - this mostly pertains to his
wanting to hide his many books to disguise his voracious reading
habits because his school friends do not think learning is 'cool'.
Left in this environment, we fear our son might possibly succumb to
additional pressures and cease to care about obtaining good grades in
school. 1.) should we move him to a more acedemically challenging
school?


Why would you want to pay for the privilege of having
him in a school that does not challenge him and that surrounds
him with people who think learning is not cool?

2.) will doing so burn him out on learning altogether?


Teaching, when done well, should never burn a child
out on learning. Children are not burnt out by being challenged.
They get burnt out by inappropriate work loads or unreasonable
expectations.

3.) when is a child better off being the be smartest in slower class vesus
being average or less in class of smarter children?


When the situation entails evaluation by someone who
doesn't have any information on or interest in the child's
actual abilities and achievements. Even though his grades
will be significant for college applications, they won't
mean much if he isn't able to demonstrate achievement in
other areas as well.
It can be a very legitimate question if you're considering
putting a child in an extremely elite program versus a less
competitive program that nevertheless will provide an environment
in which the child will learn well and develop his skills
competently. There is sometimes a disadvantage to being
a middle-of-the-road student in an extremely competitive
program. Evaluators don't always weight those situations
appropriately. But it sounds like in this case, you're
"smaller pond" is not providing him with an environment in
which to build his skills. He's just coasting. That hardly
serves anyone.
As far as building confidence and self-esteem goes,
kids develop that by overcoming obstacles and experiencing
successes, not by being handed accolades without having
worked for them. The latter seriously *undermines* confidence,
as the child realizes he isn't performing as well as the
accolades suggest and often becomes terrified of having
the "lie" exposed.

4.) at what age does this stuff matter...can one wait until high
school and what are the risks of leaving him in current environment?


A child who has not learned any study skills and who has
not developed a strong work ethic and who has gravitated toward
a group of friends who do not value learning or academic achievement
is not likely to suddenly "flip a switch" and become a successful
student once he reaches high school. He may develop more of an
interest once the chips are down and his successes (or failures)
are likely to have a more significant impact on his future, but
he may not be able to turn up the required skills nearly as
quickly.

Best wishes,
Ericka
  #3  
Old January 29th 08, 04:36 PM posted to misc.kids
Beliavsky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 453
Default better confidence builder: be smartest in slower class or medianin smarter class?

On Jan 28, 5:25*pm, pete wrote:
Our 10 year old son is in the 4th grade at a private shool. *We
suspect that our 10-year old's specific class is substantially less
acedemically gifted/oriented then is our son; our third-grade
daughter's class is doing math problems much more advanced than that
of our 4th grade boy's class. *Our sone typically gets all his math
and reading work none in the first 25% of the class time and reads for
pleasure for the balance of the time. *He is not being pushed to work
hard and still gets top grades. *


Your son may be much higher than average in intelligence ("gifted"). I
suggest looking at the resources at Hoagies Gifted
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org and at the Johns Hopkins Talent Search
http://cty.jhu.edu/ts/grades26.html

Our son and his friends are the
athletes in the class and as he cares to be connected with them, will
do most anything to avoid circumstances that might, in his perception,
cause him embarrassment in their eyes - this mostly pertains to his
wanting to hide his many books to disguise his voracious reading
habits because his school friends do not think learning is 'cool'.
Left in this environment, we fear our son might possibly succumb to
additional pressures and cease to care about obtaining good grades in
school. *1.) should we move him to a more acedemically challenging
school? *


Maybe, and you should also think about his skipping a grade at the
current school.

2.) will doing so burn him out on learning altogether?


Being bored in school because he is not learning much is more likely
to cause burn-out.

3.) when is a child better off being the be smartest in slower class vesus
being average or less in class of smarter children? *4.) at what age
does this stuff matter...can one wait until high school and what are
the risks of leaving him in current environment?


The Johns Hopkins Talent Search for grades 7-8 uses SAT or ACT test
scores as an admissions criterion. If he gets a good score one of
these tests, that is one sign of being on track. By 11th and 12th
grade I think a student who wants to study at a good university ought
to get a 4 or 5 on Advanced Placment exams in a few subjects.
  #4  
Old January 29th 08, 04:59 PM posted to misc.kids
Ericka Kammerer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,293
Default better confidence builder: be smartest in slower class or medianin smarter class?

Beliavsky wrote:

3.) when is a child better off being the be smartest in slower class vesus
being average or less in class of smarter children? 4.) at what age
does this stuff matter...can one wait until high school and what are
the risks of leaving him in current environment?


The Johns Hopkins Talent Search for grades 7-8 uses SAT or ACT test
scores as an admissions criterion. If he gets a good score one of
these tests, that is one sign of being on track.


? That isn't a test designed to determine if a normal
student is on track in his coursework. Of course, many private
schools don't do much in the way of standardized testing, so it
can be challenging to figure out if a student is behind where
he or she ought to be, but I wouldn't turn to the SAT as a way
to determine whether a student is on track in 7th or 8th grade
(which, IMO, is still too far down the pike to realize your kid
isn't where he ought to be).

By 11th and 12th
grade I think a student who wants to study at a good university ought
to get a 4 or 5 on Advanced Placment exams in a few subjects.


But that's a real lagging indicator. If you aren't
doing well on AP exams in 12th grade, it's a little late to
be doing anything about it.

Best wishes,
Ericka
  #5  
Old January 29th 08, 11:51 PM posted to misc.kids
Penny Gaines[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 124
Default better confidence builder: be smartest in slower class or medianin smarter class?

Beliavsky wrote:
On Jan 28, 5:25 pm, pete wrote:
Our 10 year old son is in the 4th grade at a private shool. We
suspect that our 10-year old's specific class is substantially less
acedemically gifted/oriented then is our son; our third-grade
daughter's class is doing math problems much more advanced than that
of our 4th grade boy's class. Our sone typically gets all his math
and reading work none in the first 25% of the class time and reads for
pleasure for the balance of the time. He is not being pushed to work
hard and still gets top grades.


Your son may be much higher than average in intelligence ("gifted"). I
suggest looking at the resources at Hoagies Gifted
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org and at the Johns Hopkins Talent Search
http://cty.jhu.edu/ts/grades26.html


But if the younger daughter's maths problems are more difficult then the
older son, it seems unlikely that the son is particularly advanced. It
seems much more likely that the son is doing work that is too easy for
his grade.

Our son and his friends are the
athletes in the class and as he cares to be connected with them, will
do most anything to avoid circumstances that might, in his perception,
cause him embarrassment in their eyes - this mostly pertains to his
wanting to hide his many books to disguise his voracious reading
habits because his school friends do not think learning is 'cool'.
Left in this environment, we fear our son might possibly succumb to
additional pressures and cease to care about obtaining good grades in
school. 1.) should we move him to a more acedemically challenging
school?


Maybe, and you should also think about his skipping a grade at the
current school.


The first step is to talk to the school - the impression I got from the
OP is that the problem is the specific class that the son is in - is
there an alternative class in the school in the same grade where the son
can do more academic work? Or maybe the boy can be set harder question
he works on while the rest of the class does easier work.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three
  #6  
Old January 30th 08, 11:41 AM posted to misc.kids
Clisby
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 249
Default better confidence builder: be smartest in slower class or medianin smarter class?



Beliavsky wrote:
On Jan 28, 5:25 pm, pete wrote:

Our 10 year old son is in the 4th grade at a private shool. We
suspect that our 10-year old's specific class is substantially less
acedemically gifted/oriented then is our son; our third-grade
daughter's class is doing math problems much more advanced than that
of our 4th grade boy's class. Our sone typically gets all his math
and reading work none in the first 25% of the class time and reads for
pleasure for the balance of the time. He is not being pushed to work
hard and still gets top grades.



Your son may be much higher than average in intelligence ("gifted"). I
suggest looking at the resources at Hoagies Gifted
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org and at the Johns Hopkins Talent Search
http://cty.jhu.edu/ts/grades26.html


Of course it's possible, but I don't see anything in the OP to indicate
the son is gifted. People expect various things of schools, but I would
think one of the minimum things you'd expect is that if there's a 3rd
grade class where the academics are at X level, there's a 4th grade
class where the academics are at X+n level. Perhaps this boy is simply
in the wrong 4th grade class.

Clisby


Our son and his friends are the

athletes in the class and as he cares to be connected with them, will
do most anything to avoid circumstances that might, in his perception,
cause him embarrassment in their eyes - this mostly pertains to his
wanting to hide his many books to disguise his voracious reading
habits because his school friends do not think learning is 'cool'.
Left in this environment, we fear our son might possibly succumb to
additional pressures and cease to care about obtaining good grades in
school. 1.) should we move him to a more acedemically challenging
school?



Maybe, and you should also think about his skipping a grade at the
current school.


2.) will doing so burn him out on learning altogether?



Being bored in school because he is not learning much is more likely
to cause burn-out.


3.) when is a child better off being the be smartest in slower class vesus
being average or less in class of smarter children? 4.) at what age
does this stuff matter...can one wait until high school and what are
the risks of leaving him in current environment?



The Johns Hopkins Talent Search for grades 7-8 uses SAT or ACT test
scores as an admissions criterion. If he gets a good score one of
these tests, that is one sign of being on track. By 11th and 12th
grade I think a student who wants to study at a good university ought
to get a 4 or 5 on Advanced Placment exams in a few subjects.

  #7  
Old January 30th 08, 02:30 PM posted to misc.kids
Beth Kevles
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 269
Default better confidence builder: be smartest in slower class or medianin smarter class?


Hi --

The main risks in leaving your child in a class where he is not
challenged but bored, and in a class where the other students don't
value academics (as evidenced by the fact that he hides his pleasure
reading) a

1. He'll think of school as a boring place, hate to go there, and
suffer the fallout of that attitude.
2. He'll develop poor study habits, such as failing to pay attention in
class and rushing through his work, not being able to distinguish
between 'good enough' and 'good' in his work. These poor habits can
last a lifetime and get in his way forever. (As I tell my kids all
the time, "smart" lets you enter the race, but only hard work will
let you win.)
3. He'll share his friends' attitude that intellectual achievement isn't
cool. As a consequence, he'll stop even trying to achieve, or try to
NOT achieve.

I'd get him out of that situation as soon as possible. Discuss it first
with the teacher, then with the principal, and if that doesn't work then
pull him into a different school. But you may get good results within
the same school if you just let them know what's going on.

Good luck,
--Beth Kevles
-THE-COM-HERE
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the GMAIL one if you would
like me to reply.
  #8  
Old January 30th 08, 11:26 PM posted to misc.kids
annie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default better confidence builder: be smartest in slower class or medianin smarter class?

On Jan 28, 3:25 pm, pete wrote:
Our 10 year old son is in the 4th grade at a private shool. We
suspect that our 10-year old's specific class is substantially less
acedemically gifted/oriented then is our son; our third-grade
daughter's class is doing math problems much more advanced than that
of our 4th grade boy's class. Our sone typically gets all his math
and reading work none in the first 25% of the class time and reads for
pleasure for the balance of the time. He is not being pushed to work
hard and still gets top grades. Our son and his friends are the
athletes in the class and as he cares to be connected with them, will
do most anything to avoid circumstances that might, in his perception,
cause him embarrassment in their eyes - this mostly pertains to his
wanting to hide his many books to disguise his voracious reading
habits because his school friends do not think learning is 'cool'.
Left in this environment, we fear our son might possibly succumb to
additional pressures and cease to care about obtaining good grades in
school. 1.) should we move him to a more acedemically challenging
school? 2.) will doing so burn him out on learning altogether? 3.)
when is a child better off being the be smartest in slower class vesus
being average or less in class of smarter children? 4.) at what age
does this stuff matter...can one wait until high school and what are
the risks of leaving him in current environment?


I suggest you talk with the teacher and the principal, if necessary,
to find out if there are other options. This year DS2 started 4th
grade declaring that he hoped Math would finally be hard this year.
He's in a full-time gifted classroom that works out of the 5th grade
book, but after the first 2 weeks, it was clear that he still wasn't
being challenged. We asked his teacher what she could do, like we've
done every other year. Every other teacher told us that he would be
given enrichment activities or could work independently from a
different book. That has slightly appeased my son, but he still
hasn't felt challenged. This time however, we actually got someone
willing to work with us to find not just a passable solution, but one
that actually meets his needs and helps to create a path forward for
years to come. We spent a week discussing options and in the end, got
permission to send him to the Middle School for Math. He's now in an
accelerated pre-Algebra class that he loves. He's still getting As on
everything, but he feels that he's finally learning, not just doing
busy work.

What are his thoughts? At 10, he's certainly old enough to contribute
to the discussion. I'd ask him how he feels about being top of the
class vs in the middle. When DS1 was accepted into a full-time gifted
classroom in 3rd grade, he was very excited about the chance to
actually be in the middle of the pack. He said he knew that teachers
can't accommodate everyone, so if he was in the middle, he would have
the best chance of the teacher actually teaching to his level. As
mentioned above, DS2 likes to be challenged, but he also takes great
pride (a little too much sometimes :-) ) in being at the top of his
class.

Annie
 




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