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10 tips for nutrition (by Nestle)



 
 
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  #91  
Old May 16th 06, 09:35 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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Default 10 tips for nutrition (by Nestle)

On Mon, 15 May 2006 10:39:09 -0600, mcmahan wrote:

Jen,

I think we are just going to have to disagree on this subject.
Perhaps there will be other areas we can agree on more.

Larry


Agreed. There we go, one already

Jen

  #92  
Old May 16th 06, 11:19 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
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Default 10 tips for nutrition (by Nestle)

My apologies for not getting back to the debate until now.

wrote:
Sarah Vaughan writes:


[...]
There need to be two messages. The first message
is intended for all women and should be transmitted universally.
"Breastfeeding is the best thing for you and your child, it is superior
to any other feedign method,


This whole debate started because Jo and you objected strenuously to a
message that said this.

and you should breastfeed unless you are
physically unable."


Larry, you seem to think that telling people what they should do is a
great way to get them to say "In that case, I'll do it." It's actually
a great way to put people's backs up and alienate them.

[...]
Now, what do you do about the women who are unable to breastfeed. You
use targetted messages to these women. Yes, they will hear the message
above, and they will know that breastfeeding is really best. There is
nothing the can (or should) be done about that! Even if these women
cannot breastfeed, they should also be advocates for breastfeeding and
convincing their friends who have not had babies yet to breastfeed.

When these women run into problems, (and not before) the medical
professionals who are dealing with them need to focus a targetted
message to them saying "If breastfeeding were available it would be
preferable, but in the circumstances, by feeding what the professional
recommends you are doing absolutely the best for YOUR child." She
needs to be made aware that she is performing an exception action
because of exceptional circumstances, and that by doing so, she is
doing the best for her child.


So, what about the women who don't contact any medical professionals
before starting to feed formula because messages of "Formula is inferior
and your baby needs breastmilk" have left them so sensitive on the
subject that they're scared of criticism and just want to avoid talking
to anybody about it? What about the women who are scared away from
seeking help by this approach?

First, regarding
women who could have breastfed, but received bad advice. I would posit
that your suggestions perpetuate the dissemination of bad advice, but
that the steps I outlined above eliminate or mitigate it by making the
good advice socially pervasive. It becomes common wisdom.


In fact, the steps you've outlined above have nothing to do with advice.
They have to do with instruction, which is not the same thing.

What women need is not advice to breastfeed, but advice about _how_ to
breastfeed. Given that there are people out there who still believe the
earth is flat, I'm sure that if you looked long enough and hard enough
you could find someone who genuinely believes that there really isn't
any quality difference at all between formula and breastmilk, but I'm
also sure that the numbers of such people are vanishingly small. In
general, women don't formula feed because they've failed to get the
message that breast is preferable; they formula feed because they don't
know how to overcome the practical problems associated with breastfeeding.

Many times
these women who have gotten bad advice (for example, with their first
child,) will have another child. We want the opportunity to reach
these women with the correct message in time for that subsequent baby.


And the correct message is that those women can seek out help and advice
without fear of judgement or criticism for their previous actions.
Women who didn't breastfeed because of bad advice already know
breastfeeding is better, or they wouldn't have been trying to breastfeed
in the first place. The reason these women didn't breastfeed is not
because they actually believed formula feeding was just as good, but
because they received bad *practical* advice - they were told that they
couldn't breastfeed when in fact they could, or they were given
inappropriate advice about how to breastfeed that sabotaged their chances.


[...]
Finally, I think your moral conclusions are, at the least, inaccurate.
I have already pointed to several clear reasons why my suggestions are
a BETTER strategy, regardless of the guilt issue.


I don't think this is the case. The only reason I can see that you've
given is your claim that "Formula is inferior" makes a more persuasive
argument than "Breastfeeding is superior", and, as I said, this is in
direct contradiction to what I've learned in psychology.

However, regarding
that question, you have to ask WHY are "pro breastfeeding cousellors"
viewed as judgmental. It is because formula feeding is viewed as
normal, and they are trying to convice women to do something abnormal.


No, it's because some breastfeeding counsellors actually are judgemental.

It's not about what you try to convince women to do, but about how you
convince them. Some breastfeeding counsellors can be very critical of
women's choices. I think that this is a case of a small minority
getting the rest a bad name, but, unfortunately, the problem does exist
and will only be exacerbated by messages that are critical of women who
formula feed.

If breastfeeding were viewed as the norm, they could simply be viewed
as helpers, rather than police(women).


Not getting blind drunk regularly is viewed as the norm, but there are
still alcoholics who don't seek help because they're scared of getting
criticised for their behaviour.

: Larry, that just isn't true. I know this because I've _done_ a
: psychology course which specifically covered the topic of public health
: messages and how they should be presented. So if you want to know what
: the equivalent of Psych 101 actually does teach - well, it taught me
: that research shows people to be more motivated by aiming for benefits
: than by trying to avoid harms.

Based on what you argue above, I would suggest than in addition to you
public health psych courses, that you also take some advertising and
advertising psych classes. This not just a question of phrasing the
message regarding aiming for benefits rather than avoiding harms. It is
a question of deviating from the norm or not. Human beings have a very
strong herd instinct. They are usually very unwilling to deviate from
the norm unless there is a strong reason to do otherwise.

If you phrase the message so that formula feeding is viewed as the norm,
even if you portray breastfeeding as "superior" it is very easy to say
"Yeah, it may be a little bit better, but since formula feeding is the
norm, the benefit probably isn't that great, so it is good enough for
me. On the other hand, if you phrase the message so that breastfeeding
is the norm, even if you only portry formula feeding as adding only
small risks, it is much easier to say "Breastfeeding is the norm,
everybody is (or should be) doing it, so I better do it too. This is
the point where attitudes get changes.


Larry, I think the problem is that you're confusing two subtly different
meanings of the word 'norm'. What you've been talking about here is
establishing breastfeeding as the norm in the sense of the approved
standard that we should all be aiming for. However, this is not the
same as the 'everybody else is doing it' sense of the word.

If anything, I'd say that messages about the inferiority of formula *or*
about the superiority of breastmilk both make breastfeeding seem *less*
like the norm, because they leave people with the subtle message that if
the point needs to be argued in this way, then clearly lots of people
*aren't* breastfeeding. It's a 'protest too much' kind of effect - it
draws attention to the problem.

A much better way, both psychologically and practically, would be to
skip the whole "Breastfeeding is best because yadda yadda yadda"
paragraph entirely (regardless of whether it's phrased as "Breastfeeding
is best" or "Formula is inferior"), and instead have something like
"Although nearly all women want to breastfeed, many wrongly believe that
they will be unable to do so. Here's some useful information that may
help you breastfeed correctly", followed by some brief information on
how to cope with common problems, or on common myths and why they're myths.

Now, this does several things. In practical terms, it's a darned sight
more help than yet another bang on the breastfeeding-is-best drum. In
psychological terms, it gets the message across that pro-breastfeeders
are actually there to *help* rather than lecture. And in more subtle
psychological terms, it starts from the premise that women usually want
to breastfeed, stated almost in passing as an obvious fact. That's far
more effective in getting the breastfeeding-as-norm message inculcated
into people.


Sarah, I hope I have been clear and logical enough so that you think
my arguments have merit.


Not remotely, I'm afraid. I still don't see how "Formula is inferior"
is meant to inspire women to seek help with breastfeeding problems. If
you're a woman who's feeling guilty over having struggled with
breastfeeding and who's worried about being criticised, to whom are you
going to turn? To the people who are telling you what you should do,
telling you how inferior your course of action is, telling you that the
stuff you're not managing to give your baby is the stuff it needs, who
are generally making you feel so much worse than you already feel? Or
to the people who tell you that it's just fine to give formula and who
make you feel OK about what you're doing?


All the best,

Sarah

--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell
  #93  
Old May 17th 06, 01:16 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10 tips for nutrition (by Nestle)

Hellow Sarah,

Sarah Vaughan writes:
: My apologies for not getting back to the debate until now.

Yes. I am sure you have a very busy schedule, and your routine
does not allow or require you to be at a computer terminal as often
as I am.

OK. I have read your response, and while there are a number of
statements I don't agree with, I think they are quite coherently
written and on point to the paragraphs to which they respond.

For that reason, I will continue to continue the practice of
responding in-line to specific points. However, in reading your
reponse, I also noted a couple of general overview remarks I wanted
to make. I will place those remarks here, before the quoted
material. These can be viewed as general remarks that apply in
general to your entire post.

First, there is the issue of "historical perspective." Reading your
responses below, I believe that there is an assumption or belief on
your part that there is no question of historical perspective
involved. You seem to be taking the view we should simply inform
mothers of the value of breastfeeding with no other message attached,
and that will be adequate for any education that needs to be done,
and further it is "more sensitive" to womens sensibilities and fears.

I think there is something much more involved. For the past 60 years
or so, we have been bombarded by a stream of messages from the formula
industry which was intended to convice women to feed formula as an
alternative to breastfeeding. This message has become deeply ingrained
into the public consciousness. It is necessary to say not only that
breastfeeding what should be done, but that a wrong message has been
propogated and we need to retract that message and say that formula
does not have the value that has been claimed for the 60 years.

The inaccuracy and damaging results of previous formula advertising
must be made known the prospective nursing mothers because of the
myriad ways they can continue to receive the inaccurate message until
it is finally and firmly debunked!

: wrote:
: Sarah Vaughan writes:

: [...]
: There need to be two messages. The first message
: is intended for all women and should be transmitted universally.
: "Breastfeeding is the best thing for you and your child, it is superior
: to any other feedign method,

: This whole debate started because Jo and you objected strenuously to a
: message that said this.

: and you should breastfeed unless you are
: physically unable."

: Larry, you seem to think that telling people what they should do is a
: great way to get them to say "In that case, I'll do it." It's actually
: a great way to put people's backs up and alienate them.

IMO, this response on your part ignores my distinction of general versus
targetted messages. You are treating the case of telling women that
formula feeding is inferior feeding breastmilk causes you to translate
my message into a direct "You (personally) should not feed formula."

I have spent a considerable time and effort explaining that this is NOT
the way to propogate the message, but you persist in turning my mass
message into a targetted message.

: [...]
: Now, what do you do about the women who are unable to breastfeed. You
: use targetted messages to these women. Yes, they will hear the message
: above, and they will know that breastfeeding is really best. There is
: nothing the can (or should) be done about that! Even if these women
: cannot breastfeed, they should also be advocates for breastfeeding and
: convincing their friends who have not had babies yet to breastfeed.
:
: When these women run into problems, (and not before) the medical
: professionals who are dealing with them need to focus a targetted
: message to them saying "If breastfeeding were available it would be
: preferable, but in the circumstances, by feeding what the professional
: recommends you are doing absolutely the best for YOUR child." She
: needs to be made aware that she is performing an exception action
: because of exceptional circumstances, and that by doing so, she is
: doing the best for her child.

: So, what about the women who don't contact any medical professionals
: before starting to feed formula because messages of "Formula is inferior
: and your baby needs breastmilk" have left them so sensitive on the
: subject that they're scared of criticism and just want to avoid talking
: to anybody about it? What about the women who are scared away from
: seeking help by this approach?

I have responded to this argument before, but I will do so again here.
First, what I have suggested is that mass media messages propogated to
the general public be the main carrier of the formula is inferior message,
but that medical professionals dealing with mothers with feeding problems
simply take the compassionate approach or helping the mother to solve the
problem in the best way possible. A woman who is faced with the decision
of whether to consult a doctor over a health quetion is not going to base
her decision on messages propogated in the mass media, but on her (and her
friends) experience with doctors in similar situations. If compassion is
shown in these cases, there is no reason for fear. Sarah, I am afraid
that your straw horse will just not hold a rider in this case!

Further, there are an order of magnitude more women who could be educated
than there would possible be in the situation you describe.

: First, regarding
: women who could have breastfed, but received bad advice. I would posit
: that your suggestions perpetuate the dissemination of bad advice, but
: that the steps I outlined above eliminate or mitigate it by making the
: good advice socially pervasive. It becomes common wisdom.

: In fact, the steps you've outlined above have nothing to do with advice.
: They have to do with instruction, which is not the same thing.

Again, instruction, per se, is a targetted message. I have repeatedly
said that the breastfeeding message should NOT be targetted, but should
be generically dissemninated in a general manner. I would call it
education, not instruction!

: What women need is not advice to breastfeed, but advice about _how_ to
: breastfeed. Given that there are people out there who still believe the
: earth is flat,

Isolating the comment below so the response stands out:

: I'm sure that if you looked long enough and hard enough
: you could find someone who genuinely believes that there really isn't
: any quality difference at all between formula and breastmilk, but I'm
: also sure that the numbers of such people are vanishingly small.

This is where we disagree quite strongly. This is the whole point I
made above about 60 years of misinformation. It is still a common
viewpoint that formula is just as good as breastmilk, or at least
close enough so that it hardly makes any difference which you choose!
Further, this is a view which the formula companies want to perpetuate
by withholding and minimizing the differences.

: In
: general, women don't formula feed because they've failed to get the
: message that breast is preferable; they formula feed because they don't
: know how to overcome the practical problems associated with breastfeeding.

I think it is a combination of the two, and that the belief that forula is
just as good, or almost just as good reduces the motivation to seek a
solution to keep breastfeeding when moving to formula is seen as the easy
answer.

: Many times
: these women who have gotten bad advice (for example, with their first
: child,) will have another child. We want the opportunity to reach
: these women with the correct message in time for that subsequent baby.

: And the correct message is that those women can seek out help and advice
: without fear of judgement or criticism for their previous actions.

I don't disagree that advice and support should be given with compassion
and without judgment. You seem to be latching onto that as a reason for
not advertyising the disadvantages or formula. I think the two issues
should be separated.

: Women who didn't breastfeed because of bad advice already know
: breastfeeding is better, or they wouldn't have been trying to breastfeed
: in the first place. The reason these women didn't breastfeed is not
: because they actually believed formula feeding was just as good, but
: because they received bad *practical* advice - they were told that they
: couldn't breastfeed when in fact they could, or they were given
: inappropriate advice about how to breastfeed that sabotaged their chances.

Again, this is a misleading statement which is only half accurate.
Many were also told to supplement because "it didn't matter" at the same
time they were being given the bad advice. I agree that they should be
given better advice, and I agree that they should be treated with
compassion, and not judged. Pediatricians are *still* giving breastfeeding
mothers bad advice to supplement when they don't have any breastfeeding
problems, and are nursign perfectly well. Until we get the general
message out to the entire public as a whole, including the medical
profession, this travesty will continue to happen, and yes, the numbers
are much higher than the number of mothers who don't breastfeed because
of fear of judgement!

: [...]
: Finally, I think your moral conclusions are, at the least, inaccurate.
: I have already pointed to several clear reasons why my suggestions are
: a BETTER strategy, regardless of the guilt issue.

: I don't think this is the case. The only reason I can see that you've
: given is your claim that "Formula is inferior" makes a more persuasive
: argument than "Breastfeeding is superior", and, as I said, this is in
: direct contradiction to what I've learned in psychology.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. Most of the advertising industry
is based on the direct contradiction to what you have learned. My main
reason for claiming that formula is inferion is that is is damaging in
a statistically significant portion of the population.

: However, regarding
: that question, you have to ask WHY are "pro breastfeeding cousellors"
: viewed as judgmental. It is because formula feeding is viewed as
: normal, and they are trying to convice women to do something abnormal.

: No, it's because some breastfeeding counsellors actually are judgemental.

And they should be re-educated or replaced! :-) I also think that there
is a historical reason for this sad situation, also. The lie that was
propogated by the formula industry created a confrontational backlash
in an attempt to fight the lie. This is the germ of the social situation
that created "judgmental couselors." By correcting the lie (throught
affirmative means to re-educate the public), we can reduce the level of
confrontation so that those who understand the value of breastfeeding
don't have to feel that they are on a battlefield whenever they try to
promote it. Then we can eliminate the judgemental approach to couseling.

: It's not about what you try to convince women to do, but about how you
: convince them. Some breastfeeding counsellors can be very critical of
: women's choices. I think that this is a case of a small minority
: getting the rest a bad name, but, unfortunately, the problem does exist
: and will only be exacerbated by messages that are critical of women who
: formula feed.

You misinterpret again. No one ever said to criticize women who formula
feed. The criticism should be reserved for formula and the formula
industry itself. Women who formula feed should be viewed with compassion
becasue of their difficulties. The message MUST be phrased in this way
Criticize the formula; show compassion for mothers.

: If breastfeeding were viewed as the norm, they could simply be viewed
: as helpers, rather than police(women).

: Not getting blind drunk regularly is viewed as the norm, but there are
: still alcoholics who don't seek help because they're scared of getting
: criticised for their behaviour.

This is a non-sequitar, and I don't know what it is doing here. Are
you saying that formula feeding is an addicitve behavior?

: : Larry, that just isn't true. I know this because I've _done_ a
: : psychology course which specifically covered the topic of public health
: : messages and how they should be presented. So if you want to know what
: : the equivalent of Psych 101 actually does teach - well, it taught me
: : that research shows people to be more motivated by aiming for benefits
: : than by trying to avoid harms.
:
: Based on what you argue above, I would suggest than in addition to you
: public health psych courses, that you also take some advertising and
: advertising psych classes. This not just a question of phrasing the
: message regarding aiming for benefits rather than avoiding harms. It is
: a question of deviating from the norm or not. Human beings have a very
: strong herd instinct. They are usually very unwilling to deviate from
: the norm unless there is a strong reason to do otherwise.
:
: If you phrase the message so that formula feeding is viewed as the norm,
: even if you portray breastfeeding as "superior" it is very easy to say
: "Yeah, it may be a little bit better, but since formula feeding is the
: norm, the benefit probably isn't that great, so it is good enough for
: me. On the other hand, if you phrase the message so that breastfeeding
: is the norm, even if you only portry formula feeding as adding only
: small risks, it is much easier to say "Breastfeeding is the norm,
: everybody is (or should be) doing it, so I better do it too. This is
: the point where attitudes get changes.

: Larry, I think the problem is that you're confusing two subtly different
: meanings of the word 'norm'. What you've been talking about here is
: establishing breastfeeding as the norm in the sense of the approved
: standard that we should all be aiming for. However, this is not the
: same as the 'everybody else is doing it' sense of the word.

Absolutely not. I have consistently used norm a "common behavior."

: If anything, I'd say that messages about the inferiority of formula *or*
: about the superiority of breastmilk both make breastfeeding seem *less*
: like the norm, because they leave people with the subtle message that if
: the point needs to be argued in this way, then clearly lots of people
: *aren't* breastfeeding. It's a 'protest too much' kind of effect - it
: draws attention to the problem.

First, there is a problem. To wit: 60 years of false and misleading
adversiting have led the general public to believe that there is no
effective difference between feeding breastmilk and formula. Second,
a significant portion of the population still hold that belief, particularly
among the poor and disadvantaged. Third, even among those that believe
breastmilk might be better, they believe that the advantages are small
enough that it makes no effective difference in the health of children.
Fourth, a significant portion of our children's health is being risked
by these false beliefs.

This is why it is not a question of "protest too much." We have a
situation where a false message has been disseminated and ingrained into
the publich psyche that it is necessary to conduct an very publich
education campaign to reeducate the public and discredit the falsehood.
The problem requires attention for an effective solution.

: A much better way, both psychologically and practically, would be to
: skip the whole "Breastfeeding is best because yadda yadda yadda"
: paragraph entirely (regardless of whether it's phrased as "Breastfeeding
: is best" or "Formula is inferior"), and instead have something like
: "Although nearly all women want to breastfeed, many wrongly believe that
: they will be unable to do so. Here's some useful information that may
: help you breastfeed correctly", followed by some brief information on
: how to cope with common problems, or on common myths and why they're myths.

I totally agree that more practical help should be given to women who want
to breastfeed, but are having difficulty. I totally agree that women
who wrongly believe they cannot should be *gently* helped. And I hope
and pray for the day where this kind of work will solve most breastfeeding
problems. However, in today's social climate in the aftermath of the mid
and late 20th century, this would address only a small portion of the
reasons why women do not breastfeed.

: Now, this does several things. In practical terms, it's a darned sight
: more help than yet another bang on the breastfeeding-is-best drum. In
: psychological terms, it gets the message across that pro-breastfeeders
: are actually there to *help* rather than lecture. And in more subtle
: psychological terms, it starts from the premise that women usually want
: to breastfeed, stated almost in passing as an obvious fact. That's far
: more effective in getting the breastfeeding-as-norm message inculcated
: into people.

I continue to stongly disagree.

: Sarah, I hope I have been clear and logical enough so that you think
: my arguments have merit.

: Not remotely, I'm afraid. I still don't see how "Formula is inferior"
: is meant to inspire women to seek help with breastfeeding problems. If
: you're a woman who's feeling guilty over having struggled with
: breastfeeding and who's worried about being criticised, to whom are you
: going to turn? To the people who are telling you what you should do,
: telling you how inferior your course of action is, telling you that the
: stuff you're not managing to give your baby is the stuff it needs, who
: are generally making you feel so much worse than you already feel? Or
: to the people who tell you that it's just fine to give formula and who
: make you feel OK about what you're doing?

As a summary paragraph, you comments above must represent the points
you want to emphasize at the end of your post.

1. The "formula is inferior" message is intended to correct and retract
misleading claims made in the last 60 years that formula is just a good,
and which claims are still believed by a significant portion of the
population.

1.b There is still a significant faction of the medical profession that
pushes formula and supplementation as the solution to any feeding problems.
This message would give women the background to question such advice.
That problem is a order of magnitude larger than the guilt problem you
seem so concerned about.

2. The criticism should be reserved for the formula itself. The women
should be treated with compassion. The message medical professionals
should be given to women is "I empathize with your difficulties, and I
pledge to work with you to find the best possible solution we can for]
you and your baby." None of the suggestions I have made contradicts or
detracts from that message.

: All the best,

: Sarah

: --
:
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

: "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

Amen, sister, Amen!

Larry
  #94  
Old May 20th 06, 11:58 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10 tips for nutrition (by Nestle)

Larry, I'm snipping quite a lot of this because on many points we're
going to have to agree to disagree. However, I've answered several
specific points below.

wrote:

You seem to be taking the view we should simply inform
mothers of the value of breastfeeding with no other message attached,


That's almost exactly the opposite of what I said. What I said was that
our message ought to focus primarily on practical advice and dispelling
myths, and only secondarily on stressing the value of breastfeeding.


:
wrote:
: Sarah Vaughan writes:

: [...]
: There need to be two messages. The first message
: is intended for all women and should be transmitted universally.
: "Breastfeeding is the best thing for you and your child, it is superior
: to any other feedign method,

: This whole debate started because Jo and you objected strenuously to a
: message that said this.

: and you should breastfeed unless you are
: physically unable."

: Larry, you seem to think that telling people what they should do is a
: great way to get them to say "In that case, I'll do it." It's actually
: a great way to put people's backs up and alienate them.

IMO, this response on your part ignores my distinction of general versus
targetted messages. You are treating the case of telling women that
formula feeding is inferior feeding breastmilk causes you to translate
my message into a direct "You (personally) should not feed formula."

I have spent a considerable time and effort explaining that this is NOT
the way to propogate the message, but you persist in turning my mass
message into a targetted message.


Because that's the way many people will hear it. A woman who thought
herself unable to breastfeed when she wanted to and who hears the
message that formula is inferior may know logically that it wasn't her
fault. But that's not necessarily the way she's going to hear it on an
emotional level.

[...]
A woman who is faced with the decision
of whether to consult a doctor over a health quetion is not going to base
her decision on messages propogated in the mass media, but on her (and her
friends) experience with doctors in similar situations. If compassion is
shown in these cases, there is no reason for fear. Sarah, I am afraid
that your straw horse will just not hold a rider in this case!


In the first place, as things currently stand we should definitely _not_
be encouraging women to see their doctors about breastfeeding problems.
(Not the sort that need advice, anyway - obviously, for mastitis or
thrush there's not much option, as women will need a prescription for
those.) I hope as devoutly as you do that this state of affairs changes
in the near-as-possible future; but you know as well as I do that
encouraging women to see doctors about breastfeeding problems will, in a
huge number of cases, be a complete waste of time and frequently likely
to do more harm than good. What we should be trying to persuade them to
do is to see people who actually know something about breastfeeding.

The message, therefore, should be that women with breastfeeding problems
can see counsellors, who will give compassionate, non-judgemental help.
Talking about how inferior formula is just doesn't come across as that
non-judgemental. There is an additional major problem here in that, as
I've said, pro-breastfeeders have a reputation for being harsh and
judgemental due to a strident few getting the majority a bad name.
While we definitely need to change this, we also need to face the fact
that that is the situation that currently exists; and we need to avoid
acting in such a way as to play to those preconceptions.

[...]
I don't disagree that advice and support should be given with compassion
and without judgment. You seem to be latching onto that as a reason for
not advertyising the disadvantages or formula. I think the two issues
should be separated.


I don't think the phraseology you suggested is going to allow them to be
separated.

[...]
. The only reason I can see that you've
: given is your claim that "Formula is inferior" makes a more persuasive
: argument than "Breastfeeding is superior", and, as I said, this is in
: direct contradiction to what I've learned in psychology.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. Most of the advertising industry
is based on the direct contradiction to what you have learned.


I honestly don't know what you're meaning by this. I can't think of any
examples of cases where the advertising strategy for encouraging people
to use one product is by criticising its competitor. Advertising
agencies advertise products by talking about the virtues of the product,
not the flaws of the competitor.

[...]
: If breastfeeding were viewed as the norm, they could simply be viewed
: as helpers, rather than police(women).

: Not getting blind drunk regularly is viewed as the norm, but there are
: still alcoholics who don't seek help because they're scared of getting
: criticised for their behaviour.

This is a non-sequitar, and I don't know what it is doing here. Are
you saying that formula feeding is an addicitve behavior?


Not at all. I'm saying that you are incorrect in saying that the only
reason breastfeeding counsellors are viewed as judgemental is because
they're advocating a behaviour that isn't viewed as the norm.

: : Larry, that just isn't true. I know this because I've _done_ a
: : psychology course which specifically covered the topic of public health
: : messages and how they should be presented. So if you want to know what
: : the equivalent of Psych 101 actually does teach - well, it taught me
: : that research shows people to be more motivated by aiming for benefits
: : than by trying to avoid harms.
:
: Based on what you argue above, I would suggest than in addition to you
: public health psych courses, that you also take some advertising and
: advertising psych classes. This not just a question of phrasing the
: message regarding aiming for benefits rather than avoiding harms.


It isn't just that, no; but that was the original point you brought up,
and your claim that your view is supported by basic psychology is
completely inaccurate. Your view is *opposed to* basic psychology, and
you really don't seem to be addressing this.

It is
: a question of deviating from the norm or not. Human beings have a very
: strong herd instinct. They are usually very unwilling to deviate from
: the norm unless there is a strong reason to do otherwise.


[...]
: If anything, I'd say that messages about the inferiority of formula *or*
: about the superiority of breastmilk both make breastfeeding seem *less*
: like the norm, because they leave people with the subtle message that if
: the point needs to be argued in this way, then clearly lots of people
: *aren't* breastfeeding. It's a 'protest too much' kind of effect - it
: draws attention to the problem.

First, there is a problem. To wit: 60 years of false and misleading
adversiting have led the general public to believe that there is no
effective difference between feeding breastmilk and formula. Second,
a significant portion of the population still hold that belief, particularly
among the poor and disadvantaged. Third, even among those that believe
breastmilk might be better, they believe that the advantages are small
enough that it makes no effective difference in the health of children.
Fourth, a significant portion of our children's health is being risked
by these false beliefs.

This is why it is not a question of "protest too much." We have a
situation where a false message has been disseminated and ingrained into
the publich psyche that it is necessary to conduct an very publich
education campaign to reeducate the public and discredit the falsehood.
The problem requires attention for an effective solution.


Well, fine; but that's in direct contradiction to the "bring the herd
instinct into play" plan. If you're trying to tell people that large
numbers of people have been conned out of breastfeeding, you're not
exactly going to be able to convince them simultaneously that everybody
else is breastfeeding so they ought to just go along with the herd.


: Not remotely, I'm afraid. I still don't see how "Formula is inferior"
: is meant to inspire women to seek help with breastfeeding problems. If
: you're a woman who's feeling guilty over having struggled with
: breastfeeding and who's worried about being criticised, to whom are you
: going to turn? To the people who are telling you what you should do,
: telling you how inferior your course of action is, telling you that the
: stuff you're not managing to give your baby is the stuff it needs, who
: are generally making you feel so much worse than you already feel? Or
: to the people who tell you that it's just fine to give formula and who
: make you feel OK about what you're doing?

As a summary paragraph, you comments above must represent the points
you want to emphasize at the end of your post.


They do; and, as you didn't answer the question in that paragraph, I've
left it in.

1. The "formula is inferior" message is intended to correct and retract
misleading claims made in the last 60 years that formula is just a good,
and which claims are still believed by a significant portion of the
population.

1.b There is still a significant faction of the medical profession that
pushes formula and supplementation as the solution to any feeding problems.
This message would give women the background to question such advice.
That problem is a order of magnitude larger than the guilt problem you
seem so concerned about.


I don't think it would give women the background to question such
advice. A woman who is advised to use formula is being given the
message that she *cannot* fully breastfeed; and, no matter how much she
believes that breastfeeding is best, she is not going to refuse to give
her baby formula if the message she has been given by the medical
professionals is that the baby *needs* formula. Stressing the
inferiority of formula is no help at all in dealing with this particular
situation, because it doesn't address the real issue. What we *should*
be concentrating on is putting across the message that the vast majority
of breastfeeding problems can be dealt with without using formula and
that many health care professionals are giving out inaccurate advice in
this situation. In other words, the important message is not that
formula feeding is inferior, but that it's *unnecessary*.

2. The criticism should be reserved for the formula itself. The women
should be treated with compassion. The message medical professionals
should be given to women is "I empathize with your difficulties, and I
pledge to work with you to find the best possible solution we can for]
you and your baby."


Indeed - but that isn't going to happen if women are put off from seeing
breastfeeding counsellors in the first place because the message
they've had from the general advertising leaves them feeling judged or
guilty, and we need to try hard to avoid that happening.


All the best,

Sarah

--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell
  #95  
Old May 21st 06, 12:14 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10 tips for nutrition (by Nestle)

wrote:
Sarah,

I was hoping we could have this discussion on the merits of the points
we were trying to discuss with resorting to ad hominums.

Sarah Vaughan writes:


[...]
Regardless of how
: little concern you have for the feelings of women who dare to feed
: formula, there are damn good _practical_ reasons for trying to avoid
: presenting the message in a way that's hurtful or offensive.

Again, I think it is an unwarrented attack to characterize me as not
having concern for people who dare to feed formula.


The 'you' in that post was meant in the more general sense (the
equivalent of 'one'), and was relating more to some of the other
comments I'd had in the thread. When I read your response here, I was
all set to post and clarify this point and apologise, because I do
realise that it was unclear and didn't come across the way I meant it to.

Then, I read your response to Jen's post in which she was disagreeing
with your suggestion of making formula prescription-only. In addition
to pointing out some practical disadvantages of this approach with which
I wholeheartedly agree, she also told her own story of breastfeeding
problems and made it quite clear how much she and her baby would have
suffered as a result of such a regulation. And your response was to say
that you'd just have to agree to disagree. No comments on how you might
avoid women having to be put through such a situation, not even an
acknowledgement of the fact that this seems to be a potential flaw in
the plan you're advocating. No indication at all that you're bothered
by the thought of putting women through those kinds of difficulties,
just as long as it's in the cause of a strategy which you believe
(without evidence) is going to increase breastfeeding rates.

I'm honestly staggered by this attitude. I don't really know what to
say to it. But I know what I can't say, right now - I can't honestly
say "Sorry, Larry, I don't believe you'd ever disregard the feelings of
women who dare to feed formula."

[...]
: Larry, maybe you missed this, but a few weeks ago a woman said that she
: was leaving this newsgroup because she couldn't face the reaction she
: knew she'd get if she mentioned that she was now, due to circumstances,
: feeding her nine-month-old breastfed son *some* formula. Previous posts
: on this group had left her feeling this way. That's the effect that
: this sort of attitude has on people. How many other women are there out
: there who leave groups like this or don't join them in the first place,
: precisely because they can't face such attitudes? How helpful are we
: going to be to women and babies if that's the way we come across?

The person you were referring to is Betsy, otherwise knows as oregonchick.


No, the person I was referring to is Jen, otherwise known as hooferoo.
I hope you've read her post in reply to yours, explaining her feelings
on this issue, and taken it into account; because if there's someone who
feels like this even on a strongly pro-breastfeeding newsgroup, then
what worries me is how many women there might be who simply never dared
post on the group at all due to worries that they'd be judged.

Larry, I understand that your intentions are of the best, and I know
that you aren't personally one of the people whose comments made Jen
feel uncomfortable with staying here. But I think this is an example of
why it is so crucially important that our attitudes don't come across as
being judgemental or extremist.


All the best,

Sarah

--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell
  #97  
Old May 22nd 06, 10:10 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10 tips for nutrition (by Nestle)

Hi,

I see your post. I just got back and have too much work to do today
to even read your post carefully, much less respond to it. Hopefully
tomorrow.

Larry

Sarah Vaughan writes:
: Larry, I'm snipping quite a lot of this because on many points we're
: going to have to agree to disagree. However, I've answered several
: specific points below.

: wrote:

: You seem to be taking the view we should simply inform
: mothers of the value of breastfeeding with no other message attached,

: That's almost exactly the opposite of what I said. What I said was that
: our message ought to focus primarily on practical advice and dispelling
: myths, and only secondarily on stressing the value of breastfeeding.


: :
wrote:
: : Sarah Vaughan writes:
:
: : [...]
: : There need to be two messages. The first message
: : is intended for all women and should be transmitted universally.
: : "Breastfeeding is the best thing for you and your child, it is superior
: : to any other feedign method,
:
: : This whole debate started because Jo and you objected strenuously to a
: : message that said this.
:
: : and you should breastfeed unless you are
: : physically unable."
:
: : Larry, you seem to think that telling people what they should do is a
: : great way to get them to say "In that case, I'll do it." It's actually
: : a great way to put people's backs up and alienate them.
:
: IMO, this response on your part ignores my distinction of general versus
: targetted messages. You are treating the case of telling women that
: formula feeding is inferior feeding breastmilk causes you to translate
: my message into a direct "You (personally) should not feed formula."
:
: I have spent a considerable time and effort explaining that this is NOT
: the way to propogate the message, but you persist in turning my mass
: message into a targetted message.

: Because that's the way many people will hear it. A woman who thought
: herself unable to breastfeed when she wanted to and who hears the
: message that formula is inferior may know logically that it wasn't her
: fault. But that's not necessarily the way she's going to hear it on an
: emotional level.

: [...]
: A woman who is faced with the decision
: of whether to consult a doctor over a health quetion is not going to base
: her decision on messages propogated in the mass media, but on her (and her
: friends) experience with doctors in similar situations. If compassion is
: shown in these cases, there is no reason for fear. Sarah, I am afraid
: that your straw horse will just not hold a rider in this case!

: In the first place, as things currently stand we should definitely _not_
: be encouraging women to see their doctors about breastfeeding problems.
: (Not the sort that need advice, anyway - obviously, for mastitis or
: thrush there's not much option, as women will need a prescription for
: those.) I hope as devoutly as you do that this state of affairs changes
: in the near-as-possible future; but you know as well as I do that
: encouraging women to see doctors about breastfeeding problems will, in a
: huge number of cases, be a complete waste of time and frequently likely
: to do more harm than good. What we should be trying to persuade them to
: do is to see people who actually know something about breastfeeding.

: The message, therefore, should be that women with breastfeeding problems
: can see counsellors, who will give compassionate, non-judgemental help.
: Talking about how inferior formula is just doesn't come across as that
: non-judgemental. There is an additional major problem here in that, as
: I've said, pro-breastfeeders have a reputation for being harsh and
: judgemental due to a strident few getting the majority a bad name.
: While we definitely need to change this, we also need to face the fact
: that that is the situation that currently exists; and we need to avoid
: acting in such a way as to play to those preconceptions.

: [...]
: I don't disagree that advice and support should be given with compassion
: and without judgment. You seem to be latching onto that as a reason for
: not advertyising the disadvantages or formula. I think the two issues
: should be separated.

: I don't think the phraseology you suggested is going to allow them to be
: separated.

: [...]
:. The only reason I can see that you've
: : given is your claim that "Formula is inferior" makes a more persuasive
: : argument than "Breastfeeding is superior", and, as I said, this is in
: : direct contradiction to what I've learned in psychology.
:
: Then we will have to agree to disagree. Most of the advertising industry
: is based on the direct contradiction to what you have learned.

: I honestly don't know what you're meaning by this. I can't think of any
: examples of cases where the advertising strategy for encouraging people
: to use one product is by criticising its competitor. Advertising
: agencies advertise products by talking about the virtues of the product,
: not the flaws of the competitor.

: [...]
: : If breastfeeding were viewed as the norm, they could simply be viewed
: : as helpers, rather than police(women).
:
: : Not getting blind drunk regularly is viewed as the norm, but there are
: : still alcoholics who don't seek help because they're scared of getting
: : criticised for their behaviour.
:
: This is a non-sequitar, and I don't know what it is doing here. Are
: you saying that formula feeding is an addicitve behavior?

: Not at all. I'm saying that you are incorrect in saying that the only
: reason breastfeeding counsellors are viewed as judgemental is because
: they're advocating a behaviour that isn't viewed as the norm.

: : : Larry, that just isn't true. I know this because I've _done_ a
: : : psychology course which specifically covered the topic of public health
: : : messages and how they should be presented. So if you want to know what
: : : the equivalent of Psych 101 actually does teach - well, it taught me
: : : that research shows people to be more motivated by aiming for benefits
: : : than by trying to avoid harms.
: :
: : Based on what you argue above, I would suggest than in addition to you
: : public health psych courses, that you also take some advertising and
: : advertising psych classes. This not just a question of phrasing the
: : message regarding aiming for benefits rather than avoiding harms.

: It isn't just that, no; but that was the original point you brought up,
: and your claim that your view is supported by basic psychology is
: completely inaccurate. Your view is *opposed to* basic psychology, and
: you really don't seem to be addressing this.

: It is
: : a question of deviating from the norm or not. Human beings have a very
: : strong herd instinct. They are usually very unwilling to deviate from
: : the norm unless there is a strong reason to do otherwise.

: [...]
: : If anything, I'd say that messages about the inferiority of formula *or*
: : about the superiority of breastmilk both make breastfeeding seem *less*
: : like the norm, because they leave people with the subtle message that if
: : the point needs to be argued in this way, then clearly lots of people
: : *aren't* breastfeeding. It's a 'protest too much' kind of effect - it
: : draws attention to the problem.
:
: First, there is a problem. To wit: 60 years of false and misleading
: adversiting have led the general public to believe that there is no
: effective difference between feeding breastmilk and formula. Second,
: a significant portion of the population still hold that belief, particularly
: among the poor and disadvantaged. Third, even among those that believe
: breastmilk might be better, they believe that the advantages are small
: enough that it makes no effective difference in the health of children.
: Fourth, a significant portion of our children's health is being risked
: by these false beliefs.
:
: This is why it is not a question of "protest too much." We have a
: situation where a false message has been disseminated and ingrained into
: the publich psyche that it is necessary to conduct an very publich
: education campaign to reeducate the public and discredit the falsehood.
: The problem requires attention for an effective solution.

: Well, fine; but that's in direct contradiction to the "bring the herd
: instinct into play" plan. If you're trying to tell people that large
: numbers of people have been conned out of breastfeeding, you're not
: exactly going to be able to convince them simultaneously that everybody
: else is breastfeeding so they ought to just go along with the herd.


: : Not remotely, I'm afraid. I still don't see how "Formula is inferior"
: : is meant to inspire women to seek help with breastfeeding problems. If
: : you're a woman who's feeling guilty over having struggled with
: : breastfeeding and who's worried about being criticised, to whom are you
: : going to turn? To the people who are telling you what you should do,
: : telling you how inferior your course of action is, telling you that the
: : stuff you're not managing to give your baby is the stuff it needs, who
: : are generally making you feel so much worse than you already feel? Or
: : to the people who tell you that it's just fine to give formula and who
: : make you feel OK about what you're doing?
:
: As a summary paragraph, you comments above must represent the points
: you want to emphasize at the end of your post.

: They do; and, as you didn't answer the question in that paragraph, I've
: left it in.

: 1. The "formula is inferior" message is intended to correct and retract
: misleading claims made in the last 60 years that formula is just a good,
: and which claims are still believed by a significant portion of the
: population.
:
: 1.b There is still a significant faction of the medical profession that
: pushes formula and supplementation as the solution to any feeding problems.
: This message would give women the background to question such advice.
: That problem is a order of magnitude larger than the guilt problem you
: seem so concerned about.

: I don't think it would give women the background to question such
: advice. A woman who is advised to use formula is being given the
: message that she *cannot* fully breastfeed; and, no matter how much she
: believes that breastfeeding is best, she is not going to refuse to give
: her baby formula if the message she has been given by the medical
: professionals is that the baby *needs* formula. Stressing the
: inferiority of formula is no help at all in dealing with this particular
: situation, because it doesn't address the real issue. What we *should*
: be concentrating on is putting across the message that the vast majority
: of breastfeeding problems can be dealt with without using formula and
: that many health care professionals are giving out inaccurate advice in
: this situation. In other words, the important message is not that
: formula feeding is inferior, but that it's *unnecessary*.

: 2. The criticism should be reserved for the formula itself. The women
: should be treated with compassion. The message medical professionals
: should be given to women is "I empathize with your difficulties, and I
: pledge to work with you to find the best possible solution we can for]
: you and your baby."

: Indeed - but that isn't going to happen if women are put off from seeing
: breastfeeding counsellors in the first place because the message
: they've had from the general advertising leaves them feeling judged or
: guilty, and we need to try hard to avoid that happening.


: All the best,

: Sarah

: --
:
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

: "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell
 




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