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#11
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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills
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#12
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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:45:47 GMT, "Donna Metler"
wrote: I strongly suspect that an oral exam/discussion given 1-1 would have much the same benefit a music audition/interview does, if schools decided to do it that way. That would eliminate students with speech problems who might to very well on written exams, but not be able to hold their own in such interviews. Having an autistic grandson and in talking with autistic adults online, I know that they might fail face to face oral exams and yet be perfectly capable of the understanding needed to be accepted on the basis of their written knowledge. My ds had problems with interviews when he was job hunting and yet he is one of the most capable chemical engineers at his company. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#13
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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 00:41:41 GMT, "nimue"
wrote: My straight-A kids have rich souls. The D students do, too, for that matter. So, what are these important things that failing students are so much better at? I'd love to know. While I think that straight A students *can* be wonderful people, I think what Herman means is students who are focused on the grades alone and there are plenty of those around. Haven't you had lots of kids who ask *is that going to be on the test?* as opposed to *is that important enough to learn?* And, I know kids who are D and F students who are quite simply not willing to put in the time to *please* the teacher or the system. They can be quite intelligent and they can be quite focused on learning when the subject is not required of them by the adults in their lives. These are individual things though and not something I would generalize to *all* or even *most* straight A or D and F students. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#14
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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills
This topic started, I think, (as I skimmed, not read) as pushing for
Meds, to ADHD, to grades. Medicating ADD/ADHD children (in MY opinion) is absurd. My 5 year old was "diagnosed" as ADHD, but I refused any form of meds for her. 6 months after her "diagnosis" it turned out she has sleep apnea, and holds her pee until she's about to have an accident. These two combined, caused her to be cranky, hyper, out of control, and annoying. She couldn't sit still because she had to pee really, really bad. Only slept 5-6 hours per night, and couldn't fall asleep because by bedtime she was beyond over tired. One day she went out with my father for about 7.5 hours, and when they got home he was in such a bad mood. My daughter wouldn't listen, she wouldn't sit still, she was really "bad." All she needed was to use the bathroom, but doesn't go because she doesn't want to miss something. ASKING for meds for your child is even more absurd. Grades. I didn't read the whole topic well, but I will say that at 23 years old my High School grades embarass me. I'm taking developmental math now in college, and I had to get extra help on division because in Middle, and High Shool, I never showed up to class, and if I did, I went to sleep. Grades are so important, and the kids with low (who don't care) grades are probably embarassed to admit they need help, have parents who aren't involved, are stressed out, depressed . . . my OPINION list goes on and on. |
#15
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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:42:19 GMT, "nimue"
wrote: toto wrote: On 8 Sep 2006 13:06:37 -0400, (Herman Rubin) wrote: Parents want their kids to excel in school, and they've heard about the illegal use of stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall for "academic doping." Hoping to obtain the drugs legally, they pressure pediatricians for them. Some even request the drugs after openly admitting they don't believe their child has ADHD. I suggest that grades be abolished, except for advisory purposes. Also, it should be understood that getting a high grade and learning the important material may well be at odds with each other. This is something I agree with. It seems to me that students who focus on the grades are not focused on learning, but on pleasing the teacher or doing the minimum to get the grade s/he wants. Are you a teacher or are you just repeating a myth you have heard? I am a teacher and I can tell you that kids who get As usually do so because they love learning. How many times have you heard a kid say, "I failed that class because it was boring?" What about "I passed that class because it was fun?" Kids who enjoy learning do well in class. Pretty simple. I am a teacher and ime, what you say is not true. I've taught both HS math and preschool. The preschool kids who are *not* graded are much more interested in learning everything. I grew up in the 60s when the ungraded systems were going strong though my own school did not implement them. All the teachers I talked to loved them, but the administrations did not and the colleges were not very accepting of them, so they eventually failed except in a few private schools where they are in place today. My dgd is 4. She is in love with life and learning and fortunately, she is in a school that she really loves right now. I am hopeful that she will not have that love of learning driven out by the school system. Too many kids start off loving to learn and are turned off by the methods used in traditional schools. Also, I was one of those kids who did well without much effort all through K-12. I can't tell you how bored I was with my honors classes. I often brought a book and read through them (keeping it well hidden). I finished my work early quite frequently and finished my homework in school. I worked 4 to midnight as a waitress in my junior and senior years and still made As for the most part though I did have a few Bs when I was just too bored to bother doing the work to my capacity. It is interesting to me that the younger kids are often much more eager to learn than the older ones. And, that the kids who want the grades are *often* focused ONLY on that and not at all on learning the material for its own sake. Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with signing up for a course and then deciding it is not worth completing. I see nothing wrong with collecting a lot of D's and F's; the straight-A student tends to be weak and shallow in the important things. Again we agree, but the problem is that colleges do NOT want students who have poor grades. There's a good reason for that. Kids get low grades because they don't show up and don't do the work. Why would a college want someone like that? My dd had a class she earned a C in that she says was the best class she ever took in her major. She struggled with it, but learned more than she did in many classes that were *easy* As for her. You know, I LOVE learning -- English and history, that is. I love it so much I couldn't stop and so I became a teacher. There is nothing like talking about literature all day long -- FUN! As for math and science -- forget about it. NOT my thing. Anyway, I just ate up everything in all my literature and history courses, but I would have had a heart attack had I ever received a C. It's possible to love what you are learning and want to get a high grade as well. It's possible, but it's not common these days. The competition for grades to get into college drives the kids much more than any love of learning. Note that you probably wanted the grade in math and science, but it didn't motivate you to actually love the subjects, did it? I got good grades in all my subjects. I loved math because of the logic and that is why I majored in math in college and only went into teaching it later on after I had my own kids and wanted to do something with children that would also use my math background. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#16
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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills
karlisa wrote: snipped Even the homeschooled kids have grades recorded on their transcripts. Of course, they're all A's. ;-) Interesting. I know a lot of homeschooled kids, including mine, who *don't* have all A's. :-) AAMOF, my two youngest both got B's and C's in their biology and chemistry courses, because they didn't study enough. YD go a B in biology and a C in chemistry; and YS got a B in chemistry and a C in biology. Neither of them is earning an A in their required budgeting and finances course, either. Kitten |
#17
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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills
nimue wrote: toto wrote: snipped This is something I agree with. It seems to me that students who focus on the grades are not focused on learning, but on pleasing the teacher or doing the minimum to get the grade s/he wants. Are you a teacher or are you just repeating a myth you have heard? I am a teacher and I can tell you that kids who get As usually do so because they love learning. How many times have you heard a kid say, "I failed that class because it was boring?" What about "I passed that class because it was fun?" Kids who enjoy learning do well in class. Pretty simple. Hmmm... sometimes. I slept through my high school classes and earned A's and B's. My younger sister worked her tail off for B's and C's. I was able to sleep through my classes and earn good grades because I loved learning enough that I was learning *outside* of class. I keep telling my grandmother that she homeschooled me and didn't even know it. I didn't need to focus in most of my classes because I'd already learned so much of the material at home. (FWIW, I too am a teacher. I've taught in public and private schools. I now home educate my children, the youngest of whom will be graduating in 2 years.) Kitten |
#18
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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills
toto wrote:
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:42:19 GMT, "nimue" wrote: toto wrote: On 8 Sep 2006 13:06:37 -0400, (Herman Rubin) wrote: Parents want their kids to excel in school, and they've heard about the illegal use of stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall for "academic doping." Hoping to obtain the drugs legally, they pressure pediatricians for them. Some even request the drugs after openly admitting they don't believe their child has ADHD. I suggest that grades be abolished, except for advisory purposes. Also, it should be understood that getting a high grade and learning the important material may well be at odds with each other. This is something I agree with. It seems to me that students who focus on the grades are not focused on learning, but on pleasing the teacher or doing the minimum to get the grade s/he wants. Are you a teacher or are you just repeating a myth you have heard? I am a teacher and I can tell you that kids who get As usually do so because they love learning. How many times have you heard a kid say, "I failed that class because it was boring?" What about "I passed that class because it was fun?" Kids who enjoy learning do well in class. Pretty simple. I am a teacher and ime, what you say is not true. I've taught both HS math and preschool. I teach high school English. I always failed math. I hate math. The preschool kids who are *not* graded are much more interested in learning everything. Who grades preschool kids? What a ridiculous idea. I have "taught" preschool, too, and we never graded any kids. I grew up in the 60s when the ungraded systems were going strong though my own school did not implement them. All the teachers I talked to loved them, but the administrations did not and the colleges were not very accepting of them, so they eventually failed except in a few private schools where they are in place today. My dgd is 4. She is in love with life and learning and fortunately, she is in a school that she really loves right now. I am hopeful that she will not have that love of learning driven out by the school system. Too many kids start off loving to learn and are turned off by the methods used in traditional schools. That can be true. Also, I was one of those kids who did well without much effort all through K-12. I can't tell you how bored I was with my honors classes. I often brought a book and read through them (keeping it well hidden). I finished my work early quite frequently and finished my homework in school. I worked 4 to midnight as a waitress in my junior and senior years and still made As for the most part though I did have a few Bs when I was just too bored to bother doing the work to my capacity. I went to a highly -- I cannot stress how highly -- competitive private school at which I got As in English and social studies and Ds and Fs in science and math. I don't know why they kept me, but I am thankful they did. Anyway, I was never bored in English or social studies, ever. Then again, I had great teachers and was constantly given enriching, challenging material and lots of positive feedback. Math and science bored me, though. It is interesting to me that the younger kids are often much more eager to learn than the older ones. And, that the kids who want the grades are *often* focused ONLY on that and not at all on learning the material for its own sake. Man, I wanted my grades. I wanted them more and more the older I got. When I was in college and could finally focus on the classes I wanted to take (I got the math and science requirement out of the way) I wanted those As (and I got them, too) but god did I just LOVE the classes I was taking. There was nary a math or science class among them. Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with signing up for a course and then deciding it is not worth completing. I see nothing wrong with collecting a lot of D's and F's; the straight-A student tends to be weak and shallow in the important things. Again we agree, but the problem is that colleges do NOT want students who have poor grades. There's a good reason for that. Kids get low grades because they don't show up and don't do the work. Why would a college want someone like that? My dd had a class she earned a C in that she says was the best class she ever took in her major. She struggled with it, but learned more than she did in many classes that were *easy* As for her. You know, I LOVE learning -- English and history, that is. I love it so much I couldn't stop and so I became a teacher. There is nothing like talking about literature all day long -- FUN! As for math and science -- forget about it. NOT my thing. Anyway, I just ate up everything in all my literature and history courses, but I would have had a heart attack had I ever received a C. It's possible to love what you are learning and want to get a high grade as well. It's possible, but it's not common these days. The competition for grades to get into college drives the kids much more than any love of learning. I work in an inner city high school and that has not been my experience. Most kids are happy to get a 65. Many don't care about the subject. They just want to pass. The few who want high grades, in my experience, really do care about the subject and work hard. Note that you probably wanted the grade in math and science, but it didn't motivate you to actually love the subjects, did it? Oh, god no. I didn't give a rat's behind about my grades in science and math. I didn't care about them. I thought they were pointless and I didn't care what grades I got in either of those two subjects. I had such contempt for those subjects. They didn't open up my heart or fascinate me or seem to serve any purpose in my life. I felt they should be left to those who could use them for good -- they can be used for good, but I am not the one who can do that. I got good grades in all my subjects. I loved math because of the logic and that is why I majored in math in college and only went into teaching it later on after I had my own kids and wanted to do something with children that would also use my math background. This past summer I took a practice GRE just for the fun of it. It was free, after all. I scored in the 99th percentile for English. Math? I scored in the 5th percentile. No one who knew me was surprised. -- nimue "As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books than I have read." Betty Bowers English is our friend. We don't have to fight it. Oprah |
#19
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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills
toto wrote: On 8 Sep 2006 13:06:37 -0400, (Herman Rubin) wrote: I suggest that grades be abolished, except for advisory purposes. Also, it should be understood that getting a high grade and learning the important material may well be at odds with each other. This is something I agree with. It seems to me that students who focus on the grades are not focused on learning, but on pleasing the teacher or doing the minimum to get the grade s/he wants. I went to UC Santa Cruz for grad school, and in the middle of my (very many) years there, they got rid of the no-grades system. Originally, UCSC didn't give out any grades at all -- all classes were taken pass-fail, and instead of a grade, students got a narrative evaluation. By the time I got there, students had the option of taking classes for grades, and by the time I finished, all classes were graded although you had the option of taking a few pass-no pass. Students still get the narrative evaluations, which I like in theory (they're much more informative than a simple grade, and you can really talk about the students' strengths and weaknesses), although in practice, they're very unwieldy if you're teaching a large class. But my main point is that I saw over the course of my time there, a steady decline in the quality of students, a steady decline in creativity and risk-taking, and a steady increase in grade-mongering. (I was in history, and I TA'd and taught dozens of classes and had hundreds of students.) I don't know if this trajectory is totally or even partially due to the change in grade policy, but it was very noticeable. And just to add -- I still have plenty of bright, motivated, engaged students who are clearly taking the class for more than a grade. I also have plenty of engaged, bright students who love talking about the material and have interesting and insightful things to say, but who don't do the work and are not getting As. I haven't found that what grade a student receives *consistently* corresponds to their intellectual curiosity. Em mama to Micah, 11/14/04 |
#20
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Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills
nimue wrote: toto wrote: I am a teacher and I can tell you that kids who get As usually do so because they love learning. Bull****. Getting straight A's necessitates one PLAY THE GAME A) Feed teachers demand for narcissistic supply B) Appease teachers demand for form over substance C) Always subordinate the truth to being an A student etc. |
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