baby in separate room from mother at night?

I am thinking over the results I've seen in families where the baby
is, typically, nursed by the mother, and spends the night close to the
mother, as compared to families where the baby is immediately put on
formula and then sleeps in a room down the hall. There is this
insidious "Ferberizing" process many young parents inflict upon their
children in which they let their kids cry themselves to sleep at night
until they get used to being without Mom and sleeping alone in their
own little room. Oh, yes! Let's make the little guy 'tough' by
making him cry, and then ignore his cries until he or she gets over it
and becomes insensitive to whether they're sleeping with mom or not.
(Is that insane, or what?) This neglect often goes along with putting
these kids on formula. In my experience, it is NEVER a breastfeeding
mother who also locks her child away in a room down the hall at night
where they have to cry themselves to sleep!

Looking at the results, that is, what becomes of this unfortunate
child who is denied his or her mother's love, space, breastmilk and
also physical protection, tells an ugly story.

I know of a girl who was adopted into a very austere and Spartan
household in which love was nothing but a 4-letter word, and the
adoptive mother could not stand to be in the child's presence child
for very long. The baby's room was down the hall, I guess so she could
sometimes choose to ignore her when she cried. The adoptive mom
THOUGHT she wanted to have a baby --then changed her mind. But she
didn't give the baby to someone who would love her, she kept the baby,
but just didn't LOVE her or make the child feel loved... Well,
unfortunately for all concerned, that child no sooner got into her
teens than she got into a syndrome of self-abuse by cutting herself in
parallel lines on her arms and legs with knives and razor blades. She
did this before she was half-way through high school. That child, as
a grown woman, had at least one abortion and later became a lesbian.
She has had absolutely no contact with her adoptive mother or father
for many years now.

Here is a second case, a businessman who, for his entire life, has
hated his mother because she never told him she loved him, never, in
his memory, hugged or kissed him, and kept him in a small dingy room
down the hall throughout most of his childhood. She never breastfed
him, she told him such a thing "freaked her out", she would not want a
baby on her breast! This is a mother who STILL makes fun of her child
and enjoys telling a roomful of guests nothing but unflattering
stories about her boy. This man is now close to 50 years old, and he
confided to me that he is still a virgin. Guess what? He says he has
"issues" with his mother, and somehow ALL women seem to him to be a
little bit LIKE his mother, therefore he has never had a successful
relationship with an adult woman, not in the business world, nor in
private. Women are "things" to be "consumed" as "eye candy" at a strip
joint or sex magazine, but he cannot figure out how to get close to a
woman -- not in real life!

My point is very simple, and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm "preaching
to the choir", but some of women reading this article MAY NOT be
planning to hug and kiss and breastfeed their babies, and I really
thought any such mothers-to-be out there ought to consider the
consequences of a lack of intimacy with your baby! You have the
AWESOME responsibility of raising either a well-adjusted, happy,
mentally healthy child, one whom you keep close to your breast, and in
your room... OR, participating in raising an unhappy, wretched little
child whom you put away in a dark little room down the hall, whom you
don't breastfeed, whom you make to be alone and lonesome, and who may
very well grow up to be either a self-destructive self-mutilator, or
possibly an inhuman, unfeeling, monster, a child who wants to give
back to women exactly what his or her mother gave them in their
childhood --- coldness and contempt! Remember, MOST of the contempt
is actually reserved by the neglected child FOR HIS OR HER MOTHER.
Think carefully, now, about how you decide to raise this baby!
"Ferberize" and harm them? And lose their love and respect? Or,
love them and be loved in return, both now and as long as you live!
Which will it be? Is it really all that hard to decide?

Best wishes & hoping you choose wisely, ------Ed
http://www.breastpumppedal.com

"Ed Augusts" wrote in message
...
I am thinking over the results I've seen in families where the baby
is, typically, nursed by the mother, and spends the night close to the
mother, as compared to families where the baby is immediately put on
formula and then sleeps in a room down the hall. There is this
insidious "Ferberizing" process many young parents inflict upon their
children in which they let their kids cry themselves to sleep at night
until they get used to being without Mom and sleeping alone in their
own little room. Oh, yes! Let's make the little guy 'tough' by
making him cry, and then ignore his cries until he or she gets over it
and becomes insensitive to whether they're sleeping with mom or not.
(Is that insane, or what?) This neglect often goes along with putting
these kids on formula. In my experience, it is NEVER a breastfeeding
mother who also locks her child away in a room down the hall at night
where they have to cry themselves to sleep!

Looking at the results, that is, what becomes of this unfortunate
child who is denied his or her mother's love, space, breastmilk and
also physical protection, tells an ugly story.

I know of a girl who was adopted into a very austere and Spartan
household in which love was nothing but a 4-letter word, and the
adoptive mother could not stand to be in the child's presence child
for very long. The baby's room was down the hall, I guess so she could
sometimes choose to ignore her when she cried. The adoptive mom
THOUGHT she wanted to have a baby --then changed her mind. But she
didn't give the baby to someone who would love her, she kept the baby,
but just didn't LOVE her or make the child feel loved... Well,
unfortunately for all concerned, that child no sooner got into her
teens than she got into a syndrome of self-abuse by cutting herself in
parallel lines on her arms and legs with knives and razor blades. She
did this before she was half-way through high school. That child, as
a grown woman, had at least one abortion and later became a lesbian.
She has had absolutely no contact with her adoptive mother or father
for many years now.

Here is a second case, a businessman who, for his entire life, has
hated his mother because she never told him she loved him, never, in
his memory, hugged or kissed him, and kept him in a small dingy room
down the hall throughout most of his childhood. She never breastfed
him, she told him such a thing "freaked her out", she would not want a
baby on her breast! This is a mother who STILL makes fun of her child
and enjoys telling a roomful of guests nothing but unflattering
stories about her boy. This man is now close to 50 years old, and he
confided to me that he is still a virgin. Guess what? He says he has
"issues" with his mother, and somehow ALL women seem to him to be a
little bit LIKE his mother, therefore he has never had a successful
relationship with an adult woman, not in the business world, nor in
private. Women are "things" to be "consumed" as "eye candy" at a strip
joint or sex magazine, but he cannot figure out how to get close to a
woman -- not in real life!

My point is very simple, and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm "preaching
to the choir", but some of women reading this article MAY NOT be
planning to hug and kiss and breastfeed their babies, and I really
thought any such mothers-to-be out there ought to consider the
consequences of a lack of intimacy with your baby! You have the
AWESOME responsibility of raising either a well-adjusted, happy,
mentally healthy child, one whom you keep close to your breast, and in
your room... OR, participating in raising an unhappy, wretched little
child whom you put away in a dark little room down the hall, whom you
don't breastfeed, whom you make to be alone and lonesome, and who may
very well grow up to be either a self-destructive self-mutilator, or
possibly an inhuman, unfeeling, monster, a child who wants to give
back to women exactly what his or her mother gave them in their
childhood --- coldness and contempt! Remember, MOST of the contempt
is actually reserved by the neglected child FOR HIS OR HER MOTHER.
Think carefully, now, about how you decide to raise this baby!
"Ferberize" and harm them? And lose their love and respect? Or,
love them and be loved in return, both now and as long as you live!
Which will it be? Is it really all that hard to decide?

Best wishes & hoping you choose wisely, ------Ed
http://www.breastpumppedal.com


So, Ed, how many kids do you have? I'm assuming you must have some in order
to 'preach', Or that you must have lived with these families you speak of?

On Apr 21, 2:29*am, "lu-lu" wrote:
"Ed Augusts" wrote in message

...


I am thinking over the results I've seen in families where the baby
is, typically, nursed by the mother, and spends the night close to the
mother, as compared to families where the baby is immediately put on
formula and then sleeps in a room down the hall. *There is this
insidious "Ferberizing" process many young parents inflict upon their
children in which they let their kids cry themselves to sleep at night
until they get used to being without Mom and sleeping alone in their
own little room. *Oh, yes! *Let's make the little guy 'tough' by
making him cry, and then ignore his cries until he or she gets over it
and becomes insensitive to whether they're sleeping with mom or not.
(Is that insane, or what?) *This neglect often goes along with putting
these kids on formula. *In my experience, it is NEVER a breastfeeding
mother who also locks her child away in a room down the hall at night
where they have to cry themselves to sleep!

Looking at the results, that is, what becomes of this unfortunate
child who is denied his or her mother's love, space, breastmilk and
also physical protection, tells an ugly story.

I know of a girl who was adopted into a very austere and Spartan
household in which love was nothing but a 4-letter word, *and the
adoptive mother could not stand to be in the child's presence child
for very long. The baby's room was down the hall, I guess so she could
sometimes choose to ignore her when she cried. *The adoptive mom
THOUGHT she wanted to have a baby --then changed her mind. *But she
didn't give the baby to someone who would love her, she kept the baby,
but just didn't LOVE her or make the child feel loved... Well,
unfortunately for all concerned, that child no sooner got into her
teens than she got into a syndrome of self-abuse by cutting herself in
parallel lines on her arms and legs with knives and razor blades. *She
did this before she was half-way through high school. *That child, as
a grown woman, had at least one abortion and later became a lesbian.
She has had absolutely no contact with her adoptive mother or father
for many years now.

Here is a second case, a businessman who, for his entire life, has
hated his mother because she never told him she loved him, never, in
his memory, hugged or kissed him, and kept him in a small dingy room
down the hall throughout most of his childhood. *She never breastfed
him, she told him such a thing "freaked her out", she would not want a
baby on her breast! *This is a mother who STILL makes fun of her child
and enjoys telling a roomful of guests nothing but unflattering
stories about her boy. *This man is now close to 50 years old, and he
confided to me that he is still a virgin. *Guess what? *He says he has
"issues" with his mother, and somehow ALL women seem to him to be a
little bit LIKE his mother, therefore he has never had a successful
relationship with an adult woman, not in the business world, nor in
private. Women are "things" to be "consumed" as "eye candy" at a strip
joint or sex magazine, but he cannot figure out how to get close to a
woman -- *not in real life!

My point is very simple, and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm "preaching
to the choir", but some of women reading this article MAY NOT be
planning to hug and kiss and breastfeed their babies, and I really
thought any such mothers-to-be out there ought to consider the
consequences of a lack of intimacy with your baby! *You have the
AWESOME responsibility of raising either a well-adjusted, happy,
mentally healthy child, one whom you keep close to your breast, and in
your room... OR, *participating in raising an unhappy, wretched little
child whom you put away in a dark little room down the hall, *whom you
don't breastfeed, whom you make to be alone and lonesome, and who may
very well grow up to be either a self-destructive self-mutilator, or
possibly an inhuman, unfeeling, monster, a child who wants to give
back to women exactly what his or her mother gave them in their
childhood --- coldness and contempt! *Remember, MOST of the contempt
is actually reserved by the neglected child FOR HIS OR HER MOTHER.
Think carefully, now, about how you decide to raise this baby!
"Ferberize" and harm them? *And lose their love and respect? * Or,
love them and be loved in return, both now and as long as you live!
Which will it be? *Is it really all that hard to decide?

Best wishes & hoping you choose wisely, *------Ed
http://www.breastpumppedal.com

So, Ed, how many kids do you have? I'm assuming you must have some in order
to 'preach', Or that you must have lived with these families you speak of?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't mean to 'preach', but I'm 59 years old which is plenty old
enough to see the results of all kinds of various systems of raising
children. I like to give information about definite cases, definite
individuals, so I'm puzzled why I get anti-Ed remarks, "Who are YOU to
preach, buddy?" instead of someone saying "I've known such-and-so-many
children who were all raised on formula and whose moms didn't show
them much warmth, and they've all grown up just fine!" I don't see
those kinds of remarks because I think the truth is, children who are
deprived of affection by their mothers or other caretakers, which
includes nursing them, DO NOT grow up as successfully as very much
LOVED children do. If anyone is shamed or embarrassed that they DID
NOT love their children enough when they were babies and tots, and
realizes now that personality deficits and behavior problems, stunted
emotional and physical development, etc., may very well be due to not
"being there" for their baby, well, I'm sorry about that, I really
am! Perhaps it is more politically correct to not talk about this
issue at all? Is that what you folks are saying? Don't rock the boat
of public opinion that states "go ahead and abandon your baby in an
empty room at night, their crying, their loneliness, doesn't
matter!"

Yes, I have indeed lived with the families I mention, although that
was on another USENET group where I listed five children who had been
breastfed for 2 years or longer, and who slept very close to their
mothers; and reported on their particular, individual, scientific,
musical, artistic, and literary talents, which were often
exceptional; also on the fact they never had to take any medications
to control any behavior problems, nor did they display any signs of
ill-health. What I was HOPING was that someone would jump in with
additional support from their own experiences raising children, and if
they want to posit a contrary point of view, that they would do so
using evidence of X-number of children who were formula-fed and slept
in a different room from their mom. But so far, aside from a few
snippy remarks, nobody has stepped forward with any evidence! THAT
surprises me!

Best, -----e.a.
http://www.breastpumppedal.com

Ed Augusts wrote:

I don't mean to 'preach',

Oh, I think that it's quite clear you *do* want to
preach. Otherwise, why the fire and brimstone.

instead of someone saying "I've known such-and-so-many
children who were all raised on formula and whose moms didn't show
them much warmth, and they've all grown up just fine!"

Some folks might be thinking that a response that
equates formula feeding with frigidity doesn't merit much
response. Also the notions that separate rooms equate to
abandonment, or that parents who do not co-sleep or breastfeed
don't love their children.

But so far, aside from a few
snippy remarks, nobody has stepped forward with any evidence! THAT
surprises me!

If you walked into a room in person and spewed the sort
of venom you just did in this newsgroup, would you expect to
be received warmly and have folks exchange information in a logical
fashion with you? I rather suspect you'd have had better manners
than to do that in person, yet you somehow think that you can
waltz into *this* group and insult long term participants who are
loving and effective mothers and fathers, yet who did not breastfeed
or co-sleep (often for darned good reasons you have no right to
judge) and be treated differently?
You will find plenty of breastfeeding and co-sleeping
advocates in this newsgroup. They just have better manners, and
therefore experience a much better reception, not to mention having
a much high likelihood of persuading others to share their
opinions.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Apr 21, 2:23*pm, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Ed Augusts wrote:
I don't mean to 'preach',

* * * * Oh, I think that it's quite clear you *do* want to
preach. *Otherwise, why the fire and brimstone.

instead of someone saying "I've known such-and-so-many
children who were all raised on formula and whose moms didn't show
them much warmth, and they've all grown up just fine!"

* * * * Some folks might be thinking that a response that
equates formula feeding with frigidity doesn't merit much
response. *Also the notions that separate rooms equate to
abandonment, or that parents who do not co-sleep or breastfeed
don't love their children.

But so far, aside from a few
snippy remarks, nobody has stepped forward with any evidence! *THAT
surprises me!

* * * * If you walked into a room in person and spewed the sort
of venom you just did in this newsgroup, would you expect to
be received warmly and have folks exchange information in a logical
fashion with you? *I rather suspect you'd have had better manners
than to do that in person, yet you somehow think that you can
waltz into *this* group and insult long term participants who are
loving and effective mothers and fathers, yet who did not breastfeed
or co-sleep (often for darned good reasons you have no right to
judge) and be treated differently?
* * * * You will find plenty of breastfeeding and co-sleeping
advocates in this newsgroup. *They just have better manners, and
therefore experience a much better reception, not to mention having
a much high likelihood of persuading others to share their
opinions.

Best wishes,
Ericka

I will take to heart what you've said, and quiet down and stay in 'my
place' -- I know when I'm basically being called "just a guy, so who
cares what he thinks or says?". This is a woman's world here. Though
I've been involved with helping market some very useful products for
women and babies and thus this topic of prolonged breastfeeding and
various kinds of nurturing experiences in motherhood came up, and
seemed important to me; I'm sorry if I haven't been steeped in the
history of this particular Group and thus seem like an intruder, such
was not my intention! I thought anybody could post here, and that my
efforts would be appreciated and also cause some debate. Debate isn't
bad, but I don't see debate, I see aggression aimed in my direction!
Oh, well! I was trying to post some ON-TOPIC stuff inbetween all the
very unfortunate travel, personal accessory, viagra, and XXX rated
SPAM that gets dumped on these mother- and child-related USENET
groups. After seeing 10 pieces of obnoxious SPAM in a row, I thought
posting something of possible interest about moms & babies might be
acceptable, but I guess I was wrong!

--------Ed
www.breastpumppedal.com

Ed Augusts wrote:

I will take to heart what you've said, and quiet down and stay in 'my
place' -- I know when I'm basically being called "just a guy, so who
cares what he thinks or says?".

Where did I or anyone else suggest that the problem is
that you're male? Men are welcome here, and are welcome to
have opinions and share them. Men or women who come spewing
gross overgeneralizations and invective are the ones likely to
receive a more chilly reception.

This is a woman's world here. Though
I've been involved with helping market some very useful products for
women and babies

Hmmm...do we now see the motivation here? Marketing
perhaps? Spam is not welcome, but you are certainly encouraged
to be a genuine participant in this newsgroup. If you are
hoping to promote your product, I can guarantee you that
posts insulting many of the fine parents in this group who
aren't following your parenting program is not a great way
to get others to buy into your views or your products.

and thus this topic of prolonged breastfeeding and
various kinds of nurturing experiences in motherhood came up, and
seemed important to me; I'm sorry if I haven't been steeped in the
history of this particular Group and thus seem like an intruder, such
was not my intention! I thought anybody could post here, and that my
efforts would be appreciated and also cause some debate. Debate isn't
bad, but I don't see debate, I see aggression aimed in my direction!

Because you started with aggression, it is not so surprising
that you received some in return. You'll find this is a group
that is generally respectful of different parenting choices,
especially from folks who don't start insulting those who don't
share their choices.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Ed Augusts" wrote in message
...
On Apr 21, 2:29 am, "lu-lu" wrote:
"Ed Augusts" wrote in message

...


I am thinking over the results I've seen in families where the baby
is, typically, nursed by the mother, and spends the night close to the
mother, as compared to families where the baby is immediately put on
formula and then sleeps in a room down the hall. There is this
insidious "Ferberizing" process many young parents inflict upon their
children in which they let their kids cry themselves to sleep at night
until they get used to being without Mom and sleeping alone in their
own little room. Oh, yes! Let's make the little guy 'tough' by
making him cry, and then ignore his cries until he or she gets over it
and becomes insensitive to whether they're sleeping with mom or not.
(Is that insane, or what?) This neglect often goes along with putting
these kids on formula. In my experience, it is NEVER a breastfeeding
mother who also locks her child away in a room down the hall at night
where they have to cry themselves to sleep!

Looking at the results, that is, what becomes of this unfortunate
child who is denied his or her mother's love, space, breastmilk and
also physical protection, tells an ugly story.

I know of a girl who was adopted into a very austere and Spartan
household in which love was nothing but a 4-letter word, and the
adoptive mother could not stand to be in the child's presence child
for very long. The baby's room was down the hall, I guess so she could
sometimes choose to ignore her when she cried. The adoptive mom
THOUGHT she wanted to have a baby --then changed her mind. But she
didn't give the baby to someone who would love her, she kept the baby,
but just didn't LOVE her or make the child feel loved... Well,
unfortunately for all concerned, that child no sooner got into her
teens than she got into a syndrome of self-abuse by cutting herself in
parallel lines on her arms and legs with knives and razor blades. She
did this before she was half-way through high school. That child, as
a grown woman, had at least one abortion and later became a lesbian.
She has had absolutely no contact with her adoptive mother or father
for many years now.

Here is a second case, a businessman who, for his entire life, has
hated his mother because she never told him she loved him, never, in
his memory, hugged or kissed him, and kept him in a small dingy room
down the hall throughout most of his childhood. She never breastfed
him, she told him such a thing "freaked her out", she would not want a
baby on her breast! This is a mother who STILL makes fun of her child
and enjoys telling a roomful of guests nothing but unflattering
stories about her boy. This man is now close to 50 years old, and he
confided to me that he is still a virgin. Guess what? He says he has
"issues" with his mother, and somehow ALL women seem to him to be a
little bit LIKE his mother, therefore he has never had a successful
relationship with an adult woman, not in the business world, nor in
private. Women are "things" to be "consumed" as "eye candy" at a strip
joint or sex magazine, but he cannot figure out how to get close to a
woman -- not in real life!

My point is very simple, and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm "preaching
to the choir", but some of women reading this article MAY NOT be
planning to hug and kiss and breastfeed their babies, and I really
thought any such mothers-to-be out there ought to consider the
consequences of a lack of intimacy with your baby! You have the
AWESOME responsibility of raising either a well-adjusted, happy,
mentally healthy child, one whom you keep close to your breast, and in
your room... OR, participating in raising an unhappy, wretched little
child whom you put away in a dark little room down the hall, whom you
don't breastfeed, whom you make to be alone and lonesome, and who may
very well grow up to be either a self-destructive self-mutilator, or
possibly an inhuman, unfeeling, monster, a child who wants to give
back to women exactly what his or her mother gave them in their
childhood --- coldness and contempt! Remember, MOST of the contempt
is actually reserved by the neglected child FOR HIS OR HER MOTHER.
Think carefully, now, about how you decide to raise this baby!
"Ferberize" and harm them? And lose their love and respect? Or,
love them and be loved in return, both now and as long as you live!
Which will it be? Is it really all that hard to decide?

Best wishes & hoping you choose wisely, ------Ed
http://www.breastpumppedal.com

So, Ed, how many kids do you have? I'm assuming you must have some in
order
to 'preach', Or that you must have lived with these families you speak
of?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't mean to 'preach', but I'm 59 years old which is plenty old
enough to see the results of all kinds of various systems of raising
children.

You did mean to preach, which is what got you into trouble. That and the
fact that your whole post was a veiled attempt to be a part of this group so
you could continue to push your "friend's" website. Rather transparent,
which is part of the reason you got the reception you did -- that, and the
offensive content of your post.

So how many children do you have?

I like to give information about definite cases, definite
individuals, so I'm puzzled why I get anti-Ed remarks, "Who are YOU to
preach, buddy?" instead of someone saying "I've known such-and-so-many
children who were all raised on formula and whose moms didn't show
them much warmth, and they've all grown up just fine!"

As I already pointed out, while your individual cases may be interesting,
they are not useful in proving anything. Ericka already mentioned some
actual studies, in which the answers between formula and breastfeeding are
much less clear cut than you seem to think. Perhaps if your post had not
been so in your face rude, and offended so many people in the process, you
might have been able to engage in a civil discussion. Instead, you
basically bash strangers and insult their mothering, by telling us that
unless we colseep and breasrfeed, our children will end up with emotional
problems and fail in life. And you wonder why we didn't receive you with
open arms.

I don't see
those kinds of remarks because I think the truth is, children who are
deprived of affection by their mothers or other caretakers, which
includes nursing them, DO NOT grow up as successfully as very much
LOVED children do.

Bull****. Stop equating breastfeeding and cosleeping to love. You are
offensive and rude. Are you saying that father's aren't capable of loving
their children, because they can't breastfeed them? Lordy.

Of course children who are neglected and deprived of love will likely have
emotional problems, but that has nothing to do with how they are fed and
where they slept. Millions and millions of children were bottle fed and
slept in their own rooms and were incredibly loved and cherished and adored
and grew up to be happy successful people.

If anyone is shamed or embarrassed that they DID
NOT love their children enough when they were babies and tots, and
realizes now that personality deficits and behavior problems, stunted
emotional and physical development, etc., may very well be due to not
"being there" for their baby, well, I'm sorry about that, I really
am! Perhaps it is more politically correct to not talk about this
issue at all? Is that what you folks are saying? Don't rock the boat
of public opinion that states "go ahead and abandon your baby in an
empty room at night, their crying, their loneliness, doesn't
matter!"

I'm resisting the urge to tell you to "F" off here, Ed. Really I am.

Yes, I have indeed lived with the families I mention, although that
was on another USENET group where I listed five children who had been
breastfed for 2 years or longer, and who slept very close to their
mothers; and reported on their particular, individual, scientific,
musical, artistic, and literary talents, which were often
exceptional; also on the fact they never had to take any medications
to control any behavior problems, nor did they display any signs of
ill-health. What I was HOPING was that someone would jump in with
additional support from their own experiences raising children, and if
they want to posit a contrary point of view, that they would do so
using evidence of X-number of children who were formula-fed and slept
in a different room from their mom. But so far, aside from a few
snippy remarks, nobody has stepped forward with any evidence! THAT
surprises me!

You walk into a room claiming the sky is lime green, ranting and raving
about it, and are suprised that no one is stepping forward with any evidence
that the sky is NOT lime green? My dad taught me years ago, you never argue
with crazy.
--

Jamie Clark

On Apr 21, 9:58 pm, Ed Augusts wrote:

I like to give information about definite cases, definite
individuals

And you then assume that those individual cases can be generalised.
So, you see two people who were emotionally neglected and, in the
second case, abused, and who also happened to be formula-fed and sleep
in separate rooms. And you then appear to have leaped from this
information to an assumption that *all* formula-fed babies and/or
*all* babies who sleep in separate rooms from their parents (two
groups which you appear to consider synonymous) are similarly
neglected.

This is such an elementary error of logic that it's very hard to
believe that you can't spot it. There's probably even a name for it,
though I haven't time to look it up right now.

so I'm puzzled why I get anti-Ed remarks, "Who are YOU to
preach, buddy?" instead of someone saying "I've known such-and-so-many
children who were all raised on formula and whose moms didn't show
them much warmth, and they've all grown up just fine!"

Actually, Ed, I was raised on formula and my mother showed me plenty
of warmth. I don't know whether or not I slept in the same room as
her as a baby, nor do I care - it's irrelevant. The important thing
is that my mother was extremely warm, caring, and affectionate
throughout my childhood (and adulthood). And, yes, I grew up just
fine. (If you want details; I'm a successful doctor, happily married,
and have two children.)

My sister slept in her own room as a baby, but was breastfed. Our
mother was just as warm and caring to her, and she has also turned out
just fine.

My son was breastfed until the age of sixteen months and slept in the
same room as us until he was twenty-two months. During this time he
was also sleep trained, by a method that used the basic principle of
the Ferber method (the exact details were different). The reason for
this was not to make him 'tough', but because it was the ultimately
the only way of dealing with the fact that he didn't want to go to
sleep at bedtime - keeping him up when he was tired, or sitting with
him until he went to sleep, just made him even more annoyed, and
eventually the only way to convince him that it was bedtime was to
walk out of the room and leave him alone for a bit. So that's what I
did. He is lovingly cared for full-time by myself and my husband,
with lots of hugs, affection, and attention. At the age of three,
he's happy, confident, and loves life.

Funny how real people don't fit into your neat little stereotypes,
isn't it?

Perhaps it is more politically correct to not talk about this
issue at all? Is that what you folks are saying?

No, Ed. We're saying that it's factually incorrect to say the things
about it that you're saying.

From what you say, it appears that you think that if a woman is
formula feeding, or if she puts her child to sleep in a separate room,
or if she uses sleep training, then it can automatically be assumed
that a) she must be doing *all* those things, and b) she is also
neglecting and possibly abusing the child. It's the latter assumption
that is putting people's backs up.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea that if a parent is
emotionally neglectful and/or abusive then that is likely to cause
emotional damage in the children. What we are disagreeing with, not
to mention vehemently objecting to, is your heavy implication that all
mothers who formula-feed, or who put children to sleep in a separate
room, or who sleep train, are also being emotionally neglectful.
Rubbish.

Oh, and one last thing: Being a lesbian is not a sign of emotional
maladjustment, and does not belong on your list of Dreadful Fates
These Poor Children Suffered. Please do not make it sound that way.


Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

According to you, there are only two options -- you either breastfeed,
co-sleep and love your child, and said child will be "well-adjusted, happy
and mentally healthy," or you bottle/formula feed, ignore your child's cries
and neglect them, and your child will be "a self-destructive self-mutilator,
or possibly an inhuman, unfeeling, monster, a child who wants to give back
to women exactly what his or her mother gave them in their
childhood." Doi.

Don't forget lesbian.

You're a moron, Ed. And your "sample" of two does not prove anything.

It is possible to bottle/formula feed and have your child sleep in their own
room in a crib without damning them to hell and a lifetime of relationship
issues and therapy.

Of course not showing love to a baby and child can damage that child, but
that has nothing to do with breast or bottle feeding, co-sleeping or crib
sleeping. Nor does it have anything to do with bio or adopted.
--

Jamie Clark



"Ed Augusts" wrote in message
...
I am thinking over the results I've seen in families where the baby
is, typically, nursed by the mother, and spends the night close to the
mother, as compared to families where the baby is immediately put on
formula and then sleeps in a room down the hall. There is this
insidious "Ferberizing" process many young parents inflict upon their
children in which they let their kids cry themselves to sleep at night
until they get used to being without Mom and sleeping alone in their
own little room. Oh, yes! Let's make the little guy 'tough' by
making him cry, and then ignore his cries until he or she gets over it
and becomes insensitive to whether they're sleeping with mom or not.
(Is that insane, or what?) This neglect often goes along with putting
these kids on formula. In my experience, it is NEVER a breastfeeding
mother who also locks her child away in a room down the hall at night
where they have to cry themselves to sleep!

Looking at the results, that is, what becomes of this unfortunate
child who is denied his or her mother's love, space, breastmilk and
also physical protection, tells an ugly story.

I know of a girl who was adopted into a very austere and Spartan
household in which love was nothing but a 4-letter word, and the
adoptive mother could not stand to be in the child's presence child
for very long. The baby's room was down the hall, I guess so she could
sometimes choose to ignore her when she cried. The adoptive mom
THOUGHT she wanted to have a baby --then changed her mind. But she
didn't give the baby to someone who would love her, she kept the baby,
but just didn't LOVE her or make the child feel loved... Well,
unfortunately for all concerned, that child no sooner got into her
teens than she got into a syndrome of self-abuse by cutting herself in
parallel lines on her arms and legs with knives and razor blades. She
did this before she was half-way through high school. That child, as
a grown woman, had at least one abortion and later became a lesbian.
She has had absolutely no contact with her adoptive mother or father
for many years now.

Here is a second case, a businessman who, for his entire life, has
hated his mother because she never told him she loved him, never, in
his memory, hugged or kissed him, and kept him in a small dingy room
down the hall throughout most of his childhood. She never breastfed
him, she told him such a thing "freaked her out", she would not want a
baby on her breast! This is a mother who STILL makes fun of her child
and enjoys telling a roomful of guests nothing but unflattering
stories about her boy. This man is now close to 50 years old, and he
confided to me that he is still a virgin. Guess what? He says he has
"issues" with his mother, and somehow ALL women seem to him to be a
little bit LIKE his mother, therefore he has never had a successful
relationship with an adult woman, not in the business world, nor in
private. Women are "things" to be "consumed" as "eye candy" at a strip
joint or sex magazine, but he cannot figure out how to get close to a
woman -- not in real life!

My point is very simple, and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm "preaching
to the choir", but some of women reading this article MAY NOT be
planning to hug and kiss and breastfeed their babies, and I really
thought any such mothers-to-be out there ought to consider the
consequences of a lack of intimacy with your baby! You have the
AWESOME responsibility of raising either a well-adjusted, happy,
mentally healthy child, one whom you keep close to your breast, and in
your room... OR, participating in raising an unhappy, wretched little
child whom you put away in a dark little room down the hall, whom you
don't breastfeed, whom you make to be alone and lonesome, and who may
very well grow up to be either a self-destructive self-mutilator, or
possibly an inhuman, unfeeling, monster, a child who wants to give
back to women exactly what his or her mother gave them in their
childhood --- coldness and contempt! Remember, MOST of the contempt
is actually reserved by the neglected child FOR HIS OR HER MOTHER.
Think carefully, now, about how you decide to raise this baby!
"Ferberize" and harm them? And lose their love and respect? Or,
love them and be loved in return, both now and as long as you live!
Which will it be? Is it really all that hard to decide?

Best wishes & hoping you choose wisely, ------Ed
http://www.breastpumppedal.com

Hi, I was giving some examples from real life people who have told me
their 'bio', which is more than you have done. One, the female
friend, went into a depression punctuated with suicidal anger when she
found out she was pregnant, and she wouldn't stand for there being any
chance that a child born to her could possibly grow up to be neglected
and unloved as she was, and thus the only thing she could think to do
was terminate the pregnancy,. I witnessed her despair, so don't be so
quick to make light of her as "proving nothing".

The people I've seen who were not shown the deepest love and affection
by their parents and caretakers turned out to be miserable adults.
You are going 'ad hominem', in your put-down comments and disregarding
the essence of what I have said, while at the same time, you haven't
come up with ANY examples of any children that tend to show that
anything I've said doesn't point in the right direction.

Come on! Put up or shut up! Give us YOUR list of kids who were fed
on formula and spent the night in a room by themselves, and tell me
what kind of teenagers and adults they turned into... please!

Obviously, from your icy words below, you believe in denying a baby
the comfort of being rocked and nursed and mothered, and sleeping
right next to its mother, in favor of a colder, more efficient, love-
depriving and cynical philosophy, of "toughening-up" the kid by
putting him or her in an empty rooim, that is, a room without the
presence of the mother. Shame on you! All I can do is feel sorry
for any babies that YOU have had or taken care of. So, please!
Authority about children! Please do comment about the results you
have had with YOUR particular childcare system? Anything the matter?
How'd you do with your love-and-warmth-deprivation system? Did I
hit a bit TOO close to home, is that the reason for your angry
outburst?

---e.a.


On Apr 21, 8:45*am, "Jamie Clark" wrote:
According to you, there are only two options -- you either breastfeed,
co-sleep and love your child, and said child will be "well-adjusted, happy
and mentally healthy," or you bottle/formula feed, ignore your child's cries
and neglect them, and your child will be "a self-destructive self-mutilator,
or possibly an inhuman, unfeeling, monster, a child who wants to give back
to women exactly what his or her mother gave them in their
childhood." *Doi.

Don't forget lesbian.

You're a moron, Ed. *And your "sample" of two does not prove anything.

It is possible to bottle/formula feed and have your child sleep in their own
room in a crib without damning them to hell and a lifetime of relationship
issues and therapy.

Of course not showing love to a baby and child can damage that child, but
that has nothing to do with breast or bottle feeding, co-sleeping or crib
sleeping. *Nor does it have anything to do with bio or adopted.
--

Jamie Clark

"Ed Augusts" wrote in message

...



I am thinking over the results I've seen in families where the baby
is, typically, nursed by the mother, and spends the night close to the
mother, as compared to families where the baby is immediately put on
formula and then sleeps in a room down the hall. *There is this
insidious "Ferberizing" process many young parents inflict upon their
children in which they let their kids cry themselves to sleep at night
until they get used to being without Mom and sleeping alone in their
own little room. *Oh, yes! *Let's make the little guy 'tough' by
making him cry, and then ignore his cries until he or she gets over it
and becomes insensitive to whether they're sleeping with mom or not.
(Is that insane, or what?) *This neglect often goes along with putting
these kids on formula. *In my experience, it is NEVER a breastfeeding
mother who also locks her child away in a room down the hall at night
where they have to cry themselves to sleep!

Looking at the results, that is, what becomes of this unfortunate
child who is denied his or her mother's love, space, breastmilk and
also physical protection, tells an ugly story.

I know of a girl who was adopted into a very austere and Spartan
household in which love was nothing but a 4-letter word, *and the
adoptive mother could not stand to be in the child's presence child
for very long. The baby's room was down the hall, I guess so she could
sometimes choose to ignore her when she cried. *The adoptive mom
THOUGHT she wanted to have a baby --then changed her mind. *But she
didn't give the baby to someone who would love her, she kept the baby,
but just didn't LOVE her or make the child feel loved... Well,
unfortunately for all concerned, that child no sooner got into her
teens than she got into a syndrome of self-abuse by cutting herself in
parallel lines on her arms and legs with knives and razor blades. *She
did this before she was half-way through high school. *That child, as
a grown woman, had at least one abortion and later became a lesbian.
She has had absolutely no contact with her adoptive mother or father
for many years now.

Here is a second case, a businessman who, for his entire life, has
hated his mother because she never told him she loved him, never, in
his memory, hugged or kissed him, and kept him in a small dingy room
down the hall throughout most of his childhood. *She never breastfed
him, she told him such a thing "freaked her out", she would not want a
baby on her breast! *This is a mother who STILL makes fun of her child
and enjoys telling a roomful of guests nothing but unflattering
stories about her boy. *This man is now close to 50 years old, and he
confided to me that he is still a virgin. *Guess what? *He says he has
"issues" with his mother, and somehow ALL women seem to him to be a
little bit LIKE his mother, therefore he has never had a successful
relationship with an adult woman, not in the business world, nor in
private. Women are "things" to be "consumed" as "eye candy" at a strip
joint or sex magazine, but he cannot figure out how to get close to a
woman -- *not in real life!

My point is very simple, and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm "preaching
to the choir", but some of women reading this article MAY NOT be
planning to hug and kiss and breastfeed their babies, and I really
thought any such mothers-to-be out there ought to consider the
consequences of a lack of intimacy with your baby! *You have the
AWESOME responsibility of raising either a well-adjusted, happy,
mentally healthy child, one whom you keep close to your breast, and in
your room... OR, *participating in raising an unhappy, wretched little
child whom you put away in a dark little room down the hall, *whom you
don't breastfeed, whom you make to be alone and lonesome, and who may
very well grow up to be either a self-destructive self-mutilator, or
possibly an inhuman, unfeeling, monster, a child who wants to give
back to women exactly what his or her mother gave them in their
childhood --- coldness and contempt! *Remember, MOST of the contempt
is actually reserved by the neglected child FOR HIS OR HER MOTHER.
Think carefully, now, about how you decide to raise this baby!
"Ferberize" and harm them? *And lose their love and respect? * Or,
love them and be loved in return, both now and as long as you live!
Which will it be? *Is it really all that hard to decide?

Best wishes & hoping you choose wisely, *------Ed
http://www.breastpumppedal.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -