128 students suspended at Ind. school

wrote:
Cathy Kearns wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
halfway between the hip bone and knee, go with that. But the
finger tip rule never worked.

However '2 inches above the knee wouldn't work either, since for a
girl with short legs, that's a shorter skirt than for a girl with
long legs.

This is exactly my point. Either rule is unfair to someone. But, an
x number of inches above the knee rule means all kids could wear
shorts. The finger tip definition means some kids, whose fingertips
hit their knees, can only wear capris. The fairer rule is the
halfway (or two thirds of the way) between hip bone and knee, but
that is harder to enforce. Perhaps what could be done is if the
skirt or shorts look too short, then measure. Most the time you can
tell if it's too short, and fingertips or x inches above the knee
might still show it's okay.


But MY point is that the principles aren't standing at the door
measuring every skirt or pair of shorts that walks throught the door.
For MOST people (and preumably this is the intent of the rule), the
ends of the fingers come to roughly mid-thigh. So, if a skirt/shorts
looks shorter than that, the kid might be pulled aside and checked to
see if the clothing meets the rules. A skirt that brushes the knees,
or comes a little above, wouldn't even trigger the radar.

It does at my school.

But if, as
with your kids, the ends of the fingers come to the knees, EVEN if the
kid were pulled aside for some reason (and it's unlikely that they
would be if the skirt was in the spirit of the dress code), it would
then be obvious that HER arms were very long, and the standards would
have to be applied differently.

And then kids feel that the rules are applied unfairly -- and they are.



Though I'd love to hear what the "see through" criteria is.

Not sure. Presumably it would be something that gives a clear view of
the details of the underwear ...

Naomi

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

"nimue" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote:
"nimue" wrote in message
...
toypup wrote:
snip

She could have spent the money she spent on her illegal outfit for
something that conformed to the school rules. That she did not do
that and now must pay for another outfit is her problem.

That can be a big problem for a 14 year old in foster care, or a
homeless shelter. I would rather that she put her energy into class.

However, I
did used to shop at Goodwill when we were poor and clothing was 25
cents a pound, literally. Maybe it's more now, but it can't be much
and I'm sure she could find appropriate clothing there.

I am in NYC, honey. Nothing is that cheap. Furthermore, maybe our
kids want to look cute, nice, as close to fashionable as they can
get. They can't
spend the money rich and middle-class kids can. It is not as easy
to find something that fits and makes the kid feel good at Goodwill
as it is at Old
Navy. They do the best they can and as I said and keep saying, this
girl looked fine.

Right. And the dress code helps level the playing field. Most parents
can afford Dickies or can get something similar at Goodwill. That way
their kids do blend in. And they can begin to show pride.

Jeff

Then have a ****ing dress code.

A little upset, are we?

I don't care. My whole point is that
suspending a kid for violating a dress code, or even making him or her
miss
class because of it, is a terrible decision that sends a very bad message.

What message is that? That misbehavior, even if it is what you're wearing,
is not allowed?

Jeff

wrote:
nimue wrote:
wrote:
snip

But, in any case, you presumably are aware of the dress code. If a
denim skirt isn't permitted, presumably some other sort of skirt of
acceptable legnth is permitted. (In a fabric that would be far
cooler than denim.)

Oh, no, a denim skirt is fine. The skirt's length created the
issue. It ended just above her knee and was completely appropriate,
imo. In the opinion of the dean, the girl looked inappropriate.
It's this kind of thing that drives me crazy. There are teachers
and administrators who wear shorter skirts. This just turned into a
bullying opportunity for the dean and I was damned if I was going to
see this kid -- who looked fine -- miss her class.

Well, it seems to me that the ISSUE here wasn't the specifics of the
dress code (though if the code forbids skirts above the knee and tank
tops of any description, it should have been clear to the girl in
question), but the way the dean chose to enforce it. Bullying and
humiliation are NOT part of any sort of dress code enforcement.

Darn straight. I think -- I feel almost guilty saying this, but I will -- I
think this dean is threatened by girls who look in any way attractive. I
think he is attracted to these girls and this makes him angry, so he
blames the girls and looks for a way to punish them. I am NOT saying that
he would EVER try ANYTHING with these girls. He wouldn't. He just is angry
with himself for feeling this attraction and blames the girls for it -- and
most of these girls have no clue. I don't even think the dean has a clue.
It's the only way I can explain his behavior. I could be wrong. This is
just a theory.


Naomi

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

"nimue" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote:
snip

Yet the kid had the option of wearing dress that conforms to the
published code.

If skirts above the knees and tank tops are prohibited, she should
know and conform to the code.

Whether or not she knew or didn't (and I suspect she didn't), she should
not
be removed from class as a punishment. That sends the wrong message.
These
kids should understand that education is the most important thing. I
remember last year a kid's mother found out she was dating an
inappropriate
guy and punished her by not letting her go on the college trip (we send
kids
on trips to different colleges to expose them to that world). I was
horrified. This girl NEEDED to see college. That should not have been
used
as a punishment. The only way out this girl has is college. Anyway, I
think making a kid miss class for a dress code violation is just as
stupid.

You also have to consequences. I guess the principal thinks that kids should
be prepared for class. That includes, in that school, pens, pencils,
notebooks and conforming to the dress code.

Jeff

Jeff wrote:
"nimue" wrote in message
...
Jen wrote:
"nimue" wrote in message
...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060827/..._st/dress_code

128 students suspended at Ind. school
Classrooms were a little less crowded at Morton High School on the
first day
of classes: 128 students were sent home for wearing the wrong
clothes.


Why not a proper uniform, with a range of things to cover lots of
tastes and individuality, but not turning it into a fashion show.

Jen

Well, in NYC the public schools cannot mandate uniforms. Even if we
could,
I don't know if I think they are such a good idea.

Really?
http://schools.nyc.gov/doefacts/fact...ils.aspx?id=75

According to the NYC DOE: "Individual schools determine whether to
have uniforms. A student attending a school with a uniform can get an
exemption from the policy."

NYC schools may mandate uniforms, although individual students can
get an exemption.

See? We can't mandate them. We can't say, "You must wear a uniform or you
can't attend." We can HAVE them, but any kid can opt out. That is what I
said before.

Jeff



--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more
books than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

Jeff wrote:
"Barbara" wrote in message
ups.com...
nimue wrote:
Jen wrote:
"nimue" wrote in message
...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060827/..._st/dress_code

128 students suspended at Ind. school
Classrooms were a little less crowded at Morton High School on the
first day
of classes: 128 students were sent home for wearing the wrong
clothes.


Why not a proper uniform, with a range of things to cover lots of
tastes and individuality, but not turning it into a fashion show.

Jen

Well, in NYC the public schools cannot mandate uniforms. Even if we
could,
I don't know if I think they are such a good idea.

Really? I am aware of several public schools in NYC that have
mandated, well, if not uniforms, the closest thing to it. One's best
friend is in a G&T program that requires the kids to wear yellow polo
shirts and blue bottoms (pants or skirts). A middle school that I
pass on my way to work has mandated white shirts and dark bottoms (no
jeans). At least with respect to the middle school, the policy was
instituted at the behest of the parents.

One reason for having uniforms is so that students can easily be
spotted as belonging to a certian group. For example, white shirts
and blue pants for the kids going to the school on the fourth floor,
yellow shirts and blue pants for the third floor, etc. They can also
have different colors for different grades. In NYC, there are often
different schools in the same building.

That is the case in my school. Even though there are no uniforms, I can
tell which kids are ours and which aren't -- weird.

Jeff
Barbara

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

Banty wrote:
In article , nimue
says...

wrote:
snip

But, in any case, you presumably are aware of the dress code. If a
denim skirt isn't permitted, presumably some other sort of skirt of
acceptable legnth is permitted. (In a fabric that would be far
cooler than denim.)

Oh, no, a denim skirt is fine. The skirt's length created the
issue. It ended just above her knee and was completely appropriate,
imo. In the opinion of the dean, the girl looked inappropriate.
It's this kind of thing that drives me crazy. There are teachers
and administrators who wear shorter skirts. This just turned into a
bullying opportunity for the dean and I was damned if I was going to
see this kid -- who looked fine -- miss her class.

From your telling, it sounds like the tank top was the problem.

Actually, it was the skirt that had this dean spitting mad.

As for your opinion that she "looked fine", since you seem primed to
stamp just about anything as "fine",

How do you know? Where do you get that idea? I have seen outfits that
weren't fine, trust me.

I'm not ready to take your
opinion on it.



The thing is - the girl has many options NOT to be pushing the dress
code envelope.

Nothing was being pushed. It was an ordinary, unremarkable outfit.

Like I said before, it's as easy as picking up a few
short-sleeve tops for her denim skirt (and no, I don't for a minute
beleive that this is a financial burden for the poor - there are
plenty of ordinary short-sleeve T's that cost as much or even less
than any tank!)


If she can't wear a tank top, surely she can wear a
short sleeved blouse or polo.

Again, she looked fine and teachers and administrators where
sleeveless shirts all the time. They look appropriate and so did
this modest tank top on this teenage girl.

There's a difference between tanks and sleeveless. The line has to
be drawn somewhere.

But where? And by whom? And, again, the bottom line is -- there is no
reason that girl should have missed class for her dress code violation.

Banty

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

"Jeff" wrote in message
news

"nimue" wrote in message
I don't care. My whole point is that
suspending a kid for violating a dress code, or even making him or her
miss
class because of it, is a terrible decision that sends a very bad
message.

What message is that? That misbehavior, even if it is what you're wearing,
is not allowed?

Agreed. I have a hard time seeing what is bad about that message.

wrote:
nimue wrote:
toypup wrote:

I am in NYC, honey. Nothing is that cheap. Furthermore, maybe our
kids want to look cute, nice, as close to fashionable as they can
get. They can't spend the money rich and middle-class kids can. It
is not as easy to find something that fits and makes the kid feel
good at Goodwill as it is at Old Navy. They do the best they can
and as I said and keep saying, this girl looked fine.

Old Navy? I've never shopped at Old Navy. We look in there from time
to time, but it's usually too expensive for us. (Esp. for a growing
adolescent.) We usually shop at Target/K-Mart, and find plenty of
nice, dress-code acceptable clothing for reasonable prices. (In fact,
the outfit *I'm* wearing today is from the sale rack at K-Mart. A
navy linen pant suit (pants and jacket), for which I paid about $15
for the pair. A red tee shirt that was on sale for about $4. Fine
for work, fine for class. (I'm taking classes, though the university
has no dress code ...) And entirely within the dress code if Shaina
were to wear it to school.(In a smaller size, of course.) They
commonly have tee's, polos and the like for around $5, pants for
under $10. (Skirts are more of a challenge, because most of them ARE
too short, but they don't tend to have much of a selection anyway.)


I think the dress code is unclear in my school and enforced by
erratically and often with great insensitivity, even cruelty.

Right. And as noted in another post, THAT is the issue, not the code
itself.

It is the issue, that and the ridiculous punishment -- there is no reason
for a child to be removed from class for a dress code violation.


Naomi

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

Banty wrote:
In article , nimue
says...

toypup wrote:
snip

She could have spent the money she spent on her illegal outfit for
something that conformed to the school rules. That she did not do
that and now must pay for another outfit is her problem.

That can be a big problem for a 14 year old in foster care, or a
homeless shelter. I would rather that she put her energy into class.

However, I
did used to shop at Goodwill when we were poor and clothing was 25
cents a pound, literally. Maybe it's more now, but it can't be much
and I'm sure she could find appropriate clothing there.

I am in NYC, honey. Nothing is that cheap. Furthermore, maybe our
kids want to look cute, nice, as close to fashionable as they can
get. They can't spend the money rich and middle-class kids can. It
is not as easy to find something that fits and makes the kid feel
good at Goodwill as it is at Old Navy. They do the best they can
and as I said and keep saying, this girl looked fine.

Wait wait wait. You're excusifying,

I'm what? Oy, vey.

plain and simple. How can I
tell? When one thing comes up, you say one thing in response. When
something else comes up, you say the opposite.

ARE the kids limited by financial resources or NOT??!? When I
suggest the tank-top girl can stock up on a few short sleeve tops,
you wail about how can her family afford it. When folks bring up
second-hand clothing, you wail about how the kids have to "feel good"
- meaning according to you, they have to spend money.

Re-read what I wrote. You didn't understand me. That is not what I said at
all.

So I guess you have all your bases covered. You have a response for
everything. As long as you don't mind not making sense.

Look, the reason for dress codes in your case is to prevent certain
excesses (and it can get pretty excessive). And to provide an
atmosphere where the kids have to THINK a little about how they
present themselves in an environment they're to take seriously. It's
about setting the stage for learning, about fostering certain
attitudes. And to prevent things like gang colors and other
distractions. And the lines have to be drawn somewhere.

If there are a lot of violations, the point has to be made somehow.
This is how this school did it. And early on, before classes really
gear up. IMO it's all about *preserving* learning time and
maintaining a learning atmosphere.

The bottom line is this -- I don't think a child should be made to miss
class for a dress code violation. That's it.

Banty

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah