128 students suspended at Ind. school

"Tori M" wrote in message
.. .

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:00:33 -0500, "Tori M"
wrote:

My point (yes there is one G) is that while my comment doesn't apply
to school supplies directly, that there are situations in which some
families aren't aware of assistance. And I think to say, 'well, the
help is out there' is an assumption that judges people and I don't
think it's good to make that assumption.

Well see you are doing your part by telling them where to get help.

I could have just as easily thought to myself, "the help is out there,
why don't they go get it?". Well, not just as easily, because I tend
to try and look deeper when people are having problems.
I just think it's very unwise to operate on assumptions about people.

Well I wouldnt do that either when talking to someone who needs help.. but
in a discussion with others I can say there are places where they can get
help. I know this because I have been there. I have done my homeless
time. I lived in 2 differant shelters. The ones in NH actualy charge you
rent! When I was pregnant with Bonnie we ran out of food a couple times
and thats when we had to humble ourselves and go to the food kitchens.. I
am actualy talking from experiance. I skip meals almost daily.. my kids
usualy eat all 3 meals or enough so they are not asking for food.

When I was a kid, we were homeless for a summer. We went all across the
west in the summer heat in a car that overheated every ten minutes. We
never stayed in a motel, just by the side of the road, sleeping on picnic
tables until the cops would come to kick us off. Reminds me of the Grapes
of Wrath. My parents' friend gave us a place to stay for a couple of weeks
and then kicked us out, so we had to find another place to stay for awhile,
which we were lucky to find. We weren't on the streets homeless, but we
were homeless because we did not have a place and pretty much plunked on
someone's couch. So yeah, we've been poor, though not as bad off as a
homeless shelter. My parents' worldy possesions was a few hundred bucks and
a broken down car. They made sure we had a pencil for school, because that
was the most important thing in the world. I remember the free lunches and
shopping at the (literally) junk yard. I remember my dad always let me eat
my fill and then he would eat, so I was never hungry. I just thought he was
being nice, but maybe we just didn't have enough to eat. Our entertainment
was driving to sit outside the drive-in and watching silent movies. Nan
assumes I don't know poor. I do. I also know the poor have services.

"nimue" wrote in message
...
Actually, I was giving you some very valuable information. Try reading it
again when you are less ****ed at me. It will save you a world of trouble
with your kids and with others.

I've already apologized. I wish you would let it rest already and stop
trying to antagonize me.

"Barbara" wrote in message
ups.com...
Nan wrote:
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:58:11 GMT, "Jen"
wrote:


"Jen" wrote in message
...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Jen" wrote in message
...
I'm sorry, but I've always been a believer that the people who stand
by
and watch are just as bad as the bullies themselves.

lol -- I've been called a netnanny and a netcop before for the same
reason. I too can't stand to see someone being bullied. I just
generally think of bullying as being several people ganging up on
one, or
one person being belligerent while the other is cowering. This
situation
seemed much more like a pretty even match between two people. And in
that situation, I (obviously don't mind my own business like I
should)
try to play peacemaker.

No, it wasn't only one person, there were others as well. That's why
I
felt the need to step in.

I also meant to say, she sounded *cornered*, and was constantly
defending
herself, and explaining herself.

Yep. Sometimes the dynamic of misc.kids seems to be that new or
sporadic posters seem to get targeted, whether intentionally or
unintentionally. I have no trouble defending someone I perceive as
being treated unfairly.
I like a good debate as well as anyone, but it doesn't need to spiral
down into what this discussion turned into.

Hey Barbara, if you haven't killfiled me, I apologize for my words
yesterday.

You have far too many interesting ideas and comments -- whether or not
I agree with them -- to ever killfile you.

I do sincerely regret that things I've said in the past have hurt or
offended you. I'll still defend myself by saying that I never intend
such an effect, but since my words clearly appear to have resulted in
that, I take responsibility for it and apologize.

The problem with the written language is that you can't see facial
expressions and body language, so things can easily be misinterpreted. It's
great that this is being sorted out. I didn't realise that Nimue was new to
this group, so am I. I'm glad she's hanging around.

Jen

"Barbara" wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:
Nan wrote:
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:29:19 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


You don't need all the answers. If you don't have the answers, then
the
solutions that are presented are the only ones that we know of that
can be
practically applied. You can't argue that we can't use those
solutions
without presenting something of your own, because what can we do? We
are
not saying absolutely everyone can buy the supplies, just that most
poor
people, even on the bottom rungs, can come up with the basics; and
those who
can't can get some help from school or other resource.

Nobody is asking you to use solutions. Only that you understand your
"solutions" won't fit everyone. You can't imagine any other concept
than what you know. The world is much bigger than your tiny corner in
which your perceptions fit only you and those you know.

Then you are agreeing that there are no solutions? That the poorest of
the poor (and the illiterate 'working poor' who can't read forms)
will always fail?

Even a short reading of this thread will tell you that I can't speak
for Nan. ;- But, no, I don't think that's right. I don't think that
the only two possibilities are *I know how to fix that* and *oh woe is
me, there's no solution* I think that sometimes we have to recognize a
problem, recognize that whatever we're doing now isn't solving it, and
experiment, brainstorm, study, etc to find another way. The fact that
*I* can't solve it doesn't mean that we give up, or that we're already
doing the best we can. Of course, it also doesn't mean that we stop
doing the best that we can -- which may be status quo -- while we work
to make improvements.

In terms of school, I think that teachers have, for many years, filled
in many of the gaps we're discussing, esp for the youngest kids. I
don't find that an optimal solution simply because I don't think its
fair for teachers to have to reach into their own pockets for these
things. But yes, in the end, you're not going to find a lot of first
graders without pencils or notebooks.

I'm not sure if all primary schools her are the same, but at my daughters
school, we pay so many dollars a year, to the school, they then supply the
pens and things they need. Excursions and other things we pay separately.
People who get a government benefit receive an extra benefit that gets half
of it paid directly to the school to cover this fee, and the other to help
with other school associated expenses. So all kids get what they need, and
the poor aren't out of pocket. I have no idea if the same thing is done for
secondary school, it certainly wasn't when I went to school.

Jen

toypup wrote:
"nimue" wrote in message
...
Actually, I was giving you some very valuable information. Try
reading it again when you are less ****ed at me. It will save you a
world of trouble with your kids and with others.

I've already apologized. I wish you would let it rest already and
stop trying to antagonize me.

I wasn't trying to antagonize you. I am sorry I did. I meant it --
learning how to apologize effectively is an art that is good to cultivate in
general, and ESPECIALLY if you have teenagers.

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 22:46:48 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


"Nan" wrote in message
news
Well, I know you're talking about a pen and notebook, which is cheap.
But here's the list for my dd's First Grade class:

Backpack
Box of pencils to share with the class
2 boxes of tissues
4-6 dry erase markers
24 ct. box of crayons
Scissors
Bottle school glue
3 glue sticks
Gym shoes w/non-marking soles
2 boxes snacks to share with class
1 box gallon size storage bags (girls)
1 box quart size storage bags (boys)

I know this is a lot. I also know that I never needed all this when I was
in school. I also know DS is in kindergarten and his school list
requirement was one pencil case, period. Everything else was supplied.
Backpacks were prohibited (just for kindergarteners). Is your community
more or less affluent? What is the supply list for first grade in Nimue's
community?

Our community is poor working class, for the most part. However, I'd
say 75% or more of the students qualify for the free or reduced cost
lunches and book rental fees.
My dd's kindergarten school supply list was almost the same as the
above, except for crayons. Those were supplied.

Nan

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 23:00:14 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:

Nan
assumes I don't know poor. I do. I also know the poor have services.

No, I didn't assume any such thing. When you stated in another post
that your family bought clothing for 25 cents a pound, I figured it
out.
My point has always been that services may be there, but those who
need them may not be aware.

Nan

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 22:46:48 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


"Nan" wrote in message
news
Well, I know you're talking about a pen and notebook, which is cheap.
But here's the list for my dd's First Grade class:

Backpack
Box of pencils to share with the class
2 boxes of tissues
4-6 dry erase markers
24 ct. box of crayons
Scissors
Bottle school glue
3 glue sticks
Gym shoes w/non-marking soles
2 boxes snacks to share with class
1 box gallon size storage bags (girls)
1 box quart size storage bags (boys)

I know this is a lot. I also know that I never needed all this when I was
in school. I also know DS is in kindergarten and his school list
requirement was one pencil case, period. Everything else was supplied.
Backpacks were prohibited (just for kindergarteners). Is your community
more or less affluent? What is the supply list for first grade in Nimue's
community?

Our community is poor working class, for the most part. However, I'd
say 75% or more of the students qualify for the free or reduced cost
lunches and book rental fees.
My dd's kindergarten school supply list was almost the same as the
above, except for crayons. Those were supplied.

Nan

And the list is almost the exact same list as the 3 closest schools to me.
WI has open enrollment.. I think thats what it is anyway... If I chose
public school the monkeys could technicaly go to any public school in the
state. I, of course, being addicted to the internet, checked out all 3
online :P

Tori

"nimue" wrote in message
...
toypup wrote:
"nimue" wrote in message
...
Actually, I was giving you some very valuable information. Try
reading it again when you are less ****ed at me. It will save you a
world of trouble with your kids and with others.

I've already apologized. I wish you would let it rest already and
stop trying to antagonize me.

I wasn't trying to antagonize you. I am sorry I did. I meant it --
learning how to apologize effectively is an art that is good to cultivate
in
general, and ESPECIALLY if you have teenagers.

Yes, it is. However, you have not cultivated it to a high enough art form
if you're posting as you did above. I do not find it to be friendly advice
at all. I have already apolgized to you twice. Please let it rest.

In article .com,
wrote:

This isn't unique. School districts face the challenge not only of the
working poor or the benefits-receiving poor, but of people who are
homeless, kids whose parents don't give a damn, whose parents are
addicts. Those kids deserve a chance as well.

Indeed they do. But at some point SOMEONE in the family has to take
some sort of responsibility to seeing that they get it. I dunno ...
maybe I'm elitist and horrible, but I think that people have to take
some responsibility for themselves and, if they are parents, for their
children.[...]
If you don't have bootstraps to pull yourself up on, be sure that
someone knows about it, so they can give you the boots!

See, that's where the problem is: you have to (a) know that there is a
possibility of things being different and (b) be capable of moving towards
that in some way, such as by filling in a form.

A friend of mine worked as a maths teacher in a disadvantaged high school.
One of her students knew exactly what he was going to do when he left school:
go to jail. Every single one of his male relatives either was or had been in
jail, so that was his ambition too. He couldn't conceive of any other life,
even though every day he saw teachers, shopkeepers, garbage collectors etc.

Secondly, the kind of people Nan mentions are often disadvantaged in multiple
ways, which gives them a limited capacity to effect change in their lives.
For example, if you have a look at people in jail, you will find a staggering
proportion of them were abused as children/adults, are unable to read, have
suffered mental illness, and have addictions.

I am not saying helping them is impossible, but if *asking for help* is a
requirement, the bar is already too high for some people to meet. Often the
education system is where these people are helped, because the school or TAFE
counsellor can fill in the forms/organise translators/determine what they need
while htey are yet unaware of the possibilities.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue