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Help. Need some advice...Please.



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 8th 05, 06:31 PM
Tomwaters
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bizby40 wrote:

I hadn't thought so since she wasn't acting out against the baby.

How
bad did it get?


Our older boy is really sweet. He actually like the baby and always
wants to go over and kiss him. His acting out begins with him wanting
my wife to play, sing, or do something with him. When she can't do
it, the acting out escalates without any let up until either she gives
in, or he is in a full blown tantrum.


Also, you mention that he's whinier with your wife than with you.
That too is very common. Children are very often at their worst
with their primary caregiver. Not necessarily because she is too
lax with him, but simply because he is most comfortable with her.
He trusts her enough to fall apart in front of her. Strange, but

true.

That's probably true. I don't know if she can get him to change
his behavior, but I just think she should spend more effort on stopping
bad behavior rather than daycare. We must have gone to five or six
daycare places and call the children we saw were all in control.
When I'm taking care of both kids by myself and the older one wants me
to play with him and I can't, he also starts to whine. But the
difference
is when I raise the tone of my voice and say "Daddy can't play with
you because daddy have to take care of Timmy" and I suggest he look
at some books or toys, he usually stops.


This paragraph struck me as very controlling. It's one thing to say,
"Wait until he's potty trained." It's another to try to dictate

years in
advance how often and for how long he'll go.


The years and times is because our community offers a popular program
for preschoolers and the age, time, and schedule is dictated by them.
I also believe at age 3 and above, the can start to talk and I would
feel more comfortable sending them to this kind of program for the
kid to play and learn to play with other kids.

It's great that you are helping out. You said the baby is only 2

months
old. As the weeks go on, he'll get on a better schedule, and she'll

get
her routines down better, and be able to assume more of the load

again.
Remember that in addition to caring for the two all day and

interrupting
her sleep schedule at night, she's also been recovering her health

and
strength after the pregnancy and birth of a child. She *is* pretty
exhausted right now, and it's completely understandable.


Yes. I'm hoping thats the reason and it'll go away once things settle
down.


I don't think there is any reason to send a child this age to

daycare.
Perhaps instead of just nixing the idea outright, you can find

alternatives.
One idea might be to have a mother's helper come a couple of times
a week. She could perhaps watch the baby while your wife had
quality time with your older son, which might help offset some of
his jealousy and whining. Or maybe you can find a playgroup.
Or can sign your older son up for a toddler gym class or something.



Encourage your wife to get together with other mothers as much
as possible. Just getting out of the house will be a big relief for
her.


That's a good idea. We will try to look into something like gymboree.
Hopefully she'll meet other mothers and they can get together
during the day.


Understand that things will get better soon. Understand that your
son's whining and tantrums aren't so much a discipline problem
as an expression of anxiety. His world has been turned upside
down. He needs to be given as much love and attention as
possible. Understand that your wife's world has been turned
upside down as well. Make sure she knows that you love her
and support her, and think she's a *wonderful* mother.


Thanks for your reply. My wife is a wonderful mother.

  #12  
Old April 8th 05, 06:32 PM
Circe
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"bizby40" wrote in message
...
Also, you mention that he's whinier with your wife than with you.
That too is very common. Children are very often at their worst
with their primary caregiver. Not necessarily because she is too
lax with him, but simply because he is most comfortable with her.
He trusts her enough to fall apart in front of her. Strange, but true.

I wanted to second this (and third and fourth it, too). All three of my
children are much better behaved and whine/cry less when they are with my
husband than when they are with me alone or with both of us. I firmly
believe that this is because my husband is the "novel" parent because he's
at work much of the time, and therefore, the kids value their time with him
more and don't want to "mess it up" by having him upset with them or by
getting into trouble with him. By comparison, I am home most of the time and
*my* being upset with them or them being in trouble with me is old hat.

I know that my husband often thinks I'm lax when it comes to disciplining
them because of the difference in the way they behave when I'm around and
when I'm not. But the truth is, I enforce the boundaries and limits
*waaaaay* more than my husband does because I am around *waaaaay* more than
he is; it's just that he isn't here to see me do it because, well, he isn't
here!
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

  #13  
Old April 8th 05, 06:32 PM
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Tomwaters wrote:
electroscopillan wrote:


I think you're right about being overwhelmed. When we talked I told
her
that I won't mind sending the older child to daycare if the reason is
she needs a break, but she always insists that it's the best thing
because
he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things

to
get stimulated and not bored. I don't want to send the child to
daycare for that reason because I think it's too early. Aside from

the
different view point about whether it's good for him or not, I just
don't think we can afford it on a permanent basis, especially if both
kids go to day care from
toddler to kindergarden.


I think you should not worry so much about the reason to send the older
child to day care. You seem to think she needs a break, and pretty much
everyone I know that has two kids that close in age has needed a break.
So in your mind, you are sending the child to day care because your
wife needs a break. She is sending him because he needs interactions.
So what, the end effect is the same.

Maybe your wife is rationalizing, and maybe she isn't. But there is
isn't much value in forcing her to admit she is rationalizing or making
her give up the day care idea if you think she needs a break.

And, I wouldn't worry so much about the future of having both kids in
day care 18 months from now. This decision you are making is not
forever -- you can revisit it later, reduce the number of days or
hours, decide to wait longer to send the younger child, etc. I think
the key thing with having a newborn is that with most things, you
should do what works for your family now, and not worry about undoing
it later. You do that when you need to.

Jan

  #14  
Old April 8th 05, 06:34 PM
Tomwaters
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Penny Gaines wrote:

I think the real problem is that you have two babies (no matter how

big
he seems compared to the 2mo, the 19mo is still a baby), and almost
everyone would find it hard to cope. You are probably both stressed

out,
and it is possible your wife has postnatal depression as well.


That's probably true.


He's just found that life no longer revolves aroud him, and he's

probably
having a hard time adjusting. Possibly when he is with you, you are

not
also in sole charge of the baby, but when he is with your wife, she

is
trying to look after another child too. That is, the reason you

aren't
getting the tantrums is because he isn't jealous that the baby is

stealing
his time with you.


The strange thing is that with me that really doesn't happen. I often
look after both of them alone and even when both of them want to be
fed at the same time, or the older one wants my attention, I can
usually
redirect him and stop his whining until I am finish with the new born
and can pay some attention to the 19 month old.

I don't think that is an unreasonable ideal for day care use: OTOH,

you
aren't looking after him for the rest of the time, so you can look at

it in
a different light to the way your wife is looking at it. Also, if

she is
exhausted, she probably isn't thinking straight: maybe she would be

happy
with shorter time, but doesn't think a daycare would offer it.


We'll I'm not oppose to daycare if we are in agreement as to why we are
sending him there. If it becomes so overwhelming for her, then we
really
have no choice, and daycare would be the next best option. I just
don't want to send him there if the reason is because she thinks it
would
be good for him to learn and be with other kids, and by not doing so we
would put him at a disadvantage in his later years. I think at 19
months
the main reason for daycare is to care for the child, not to stimulate
and teach him. If you look at their daytime schedule, the interaction
or play time is usually for half and hour in the morning and half and
hour during the afternoon. And the teaching time is usually for
an hour to hour and a half in the morning. All the other times are for
diaper changes, lunch preparation, lunch time, pre nap, and 2 1/2 hour
of naptime.


One option she could consider is perhaps getting a mother's help for

a
few hours a day. That way, the mother's help could take the older

child out
so he isn't bored and give your wife the time she wants with the

baby.

Do you have any suggestions about how to go about getting a mother's
helper?
Do we just put an ad or is there a place that would have pre screened
candidates?



It's possible that your wife is feeling guilty that the baby isn't

getting
the same attention that she gave the older one, and the only way she

can see
to do this is to send the older one someone else.


No, I don't think so. She really plays with the babies alot. She's
always
reading to them, playing the toys with them, posing them for pictures,
taking them outside , doing singing and dancing, etc.
She probably pays them too much attention. Her problem only recently
started
because the whining and crying has got to such a point that he's
totally
frustrated and can't take it anymore (in my opinion).



I think this is nothing to do with whether daycare is in the best

interests
of your children, and has a huge amount to do with your wife feeling
exhausted, over-stretched and unappreciated. From what you have

written,
there is a certain air of "look at *all* I do, and how little she

does", and
if you discuss this issue with her like that, she probably feels you
don't appreciate that she may well be runing round trying to keep two


demanding little tryants happy, and have no idea what it is like for

her -
and you don't. I'm not trying to belittle what you do, but when you

have
a single baby, you get lots of time off- eg when the baby is napping

- but
when you add the second child, you don't have that time off. She is

on call
the entire time you are at work, she doesn't even get coffee breaks.



Yes, I think thats the consensus from most of the replys. I don't mean
to
appear that I'm doing alot more and she's doing alot less. In fact,
before she started insisting on daycare, she was doing most of the
work.
Only recently have I begun taking care of both of them when I get off
work. This way at least she'll have some free time and either go out
of the house to the gym or shopping or whatever, or get some sleep or
just relax.

I'm looking for sound advice and an objective third point of view so
I can assess and make a judgement as to whether to give in and send
our son to daycare, or hold firm and only send him only if necessary.

  #15  
Old April 8th 05, 06:35 PM
cara
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wrote:

I am having some trouble with my wife. We have two boys, one is
2 months old and the other is 19 months. I work and my wife stays at
home. Lately my older son has been whinning and crying. He does this
with her, but not as much with me. It's driving my wife nuts and now
she wants to sent him to day care part time. She wants to enroll him
in a pre school from 9am to 3pm, 5 days a week. It costs about $500 a
month. She says it will be good for him because he is bore at home and
it will teach him how to behave.

I think you should immediately assure her that you will find a solution
to the situation and make some compromises. She clearly needs a 'break'
from the demands of the two little guys at some point during the week,
and the 19 month old is likely the more demanding of the two at this
stage. Why not talk about trying daycare for 3 mornings a week to start
and then see if the additional days and times are really necessary. Or
a nanny or mother's helper like others have suggested. - anything that
gives her a little respite, chance to catch up on sleep and other things
she wants/needs to get done. My bet is that by giving her a break from
the kid(s), she'll start to feel more like pitching in around the
house. Sometimes spending a little money (ie: cost of a sitter or
daycare) and looking past semi-rigid views of who should be doing what
is really worth the mental health benefits for everyone involved,
particularly your wife.

cara

  #16  
Old April 8th 05, 06:36 PM
dragonlady
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In article . com,
"Tomwaters" wrote:

she always insists that it's the best thing
because
he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things to
get stimulated and not bored.


Many toddlers DO do better when they have other children around. If she
is isolated with the two kids all the time -- that is, no other children
around, no other parents around -- I can really understand how she
feels.

My own tendency is to accept people at their word, rather than trying to
second guess their "real" motivation. If that really is her primary
goal -- to get him around other kids and have the stimulation of a
different environment -- there may be other options to pursue, such
formal play groups (I used to go to one at a local community center
twice a week) or other mom/tot groups. There was also a local church
that had a once-a-week "mom's morning out" program, where the children
(all younger than school age) were cared for in one room with a paid,
professional care provider while the moms had a formal program (the one
I remember best was on flower arranging) followed by some informal time
together. Some friendships grew out of this, and I enjoyed both the
program and the break from my kids.

I started getting out and doing things with my three kids when the twins
were about six weeks old; my older child was past her 3rd birthday,
however, so it was easier than if she'd still been a toddler. It was
hard work, but for me it was worth it. I'm a classic Myers-Briggs
extrovert -- I need to be around other people to feel recharged; too
much time alone (and, frankly, being with an infant and a toddler is
about the same as being alone for THAT purpose) and I start to sink into
depression. My daughter enjoyed her time with other kids, and the
babies seemed pretty oblivious to whether we were at home or out and
about.

I wish I'd lived where I grew up -- I had cousins having kids about the
same time I did, and I know we'd have gotten together during the day.

Since at this point you and your wife disagree about day care, it just
makes sense to me to drop THAT discussion, and try to have a discussion
about what needs of your son's (and your wife's, if she's willing to
include that) are not currently being met, and try to research and
discuss other ways to meet those needs. You may end up agreeing that
day care is the best option -- or you may not. But I think framing it
as a discussion about how to get needs met, rather than whether or not
to send him to day care, is more likely to be a positive discussion.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

  #17  
Old April 8th 05, 06:37 PM
Ericka Kammerer
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Tomwaters wrote:


I think you're right about being overwhelmed. When we talked I told
her
that I won't mind sending the older child to daycare if the reason is
she needs a break, but she always insists that it's the best thing
because
he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things to
get stimulated and not bored.


But if she admits that it's because she's overwhelmed,
then she's admitting to being an "inadequate" mother. She may
feel a need to frame it as something that's best for the child
in order to salvage some dignity for herself, especially if
she's struggling with postpartum depression. You may need to
tread very carefully to find a compromise solution.

I don't want to send the child to
daycare for that reason because I think it's too early. Aside from the
different view point about whether it's good for him or not, I just
don't think we can afford it on a permanent basis, especially if both
kids go to day care from
toddler to kindergarden.


The finances are a very viable concern. Clearly, it is
not necessary for your toddler to be in full time daycare for
him to be properly socialized. Equally clearly, having him
in daycare is not having strangers raise him and isn't some
sort of awful thing. Personally, while I'm not anti-Montessori
in general, I'd beware of buying into the notion that your
toddler really needs to be in it five full days a week. If
they're really pushing that, I'd be skeptical. I understand
that some Montessori schools push that, but honestly, the
child's only 19 months old. I rather suspect that something
short of full time (combined with appropriate care for
PPD, if your wife has it) will provide sufficient respite,
especially as the new baby gets older, at a cost that isn't
so burdensome to your family.
I wouldn't get too didactic about how many hours
when. Different kids are different and thrive on different
things. My third will go off to a 3 hour, 2 days/week
program just after she turns 2 years old. She's very
social and thrives on being around other kids and structured
activities and I'll be thrilled for her to have those
experiences while I get a few hours to get some other
stuff done without tending to the needs of a very active
toddler. I don't think it'll harm her a bit. In fact, I
think it will be quite beneficial for her, though I don't
think all 2yos need to be in such programs and some 2yos
won't really be ready for one.
I think you really have to separate out your issues
here. One is that your wife is overwhelmed, possibly
complicated by PPD. You've obviously tried to deal with
that by providing a lot of support while you're home, but
you can't really do anything about the long day while
you're gone. Some additional resources seem in order,
both to provide some respite and to evaluate whether
PPD is a problem. I don't think you can further address
the question of the toddler's needs until you make some
progress on the first set of issues. I'd be looking to
put a temporary situation in place until those can be
dealt with.

Best wishes,
Ericka

  #18  
Old April 8th 05, 07:56 PM
Nikki
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wrote:

I think you should not worry so much about the reason to send the
older child to day care. You seem to think she needs a break, and
pretty much everyone I know that has two kids that close in age has
needed a break. So in your mind, you are sending the child to day
care because your wife needs a break. She is sending him because he
needs interactions. So what, the end effect is the same.


I think it does matter though. The mother needs a break no matter what. I
won't repeat my other post but if she is *really* truly concerned about her
19mo's behavior then I have two comments. First when really tired and
overwhelmed some woman don't think to clearly. They think that they are
shortchanging their kids and that someone else would do a better job. I
wouldn't want that to be the basis of a decision. Second, if the child is
having a hard time because he is adjusting to having a new baby and less
mommy time....sending him to daycare isn't going to fix that. Getting him
some onene relaxed mommy time on a regular basis would go a lot further.
She may not think that way if she is really tired because she may already
think she is failing him. When I was still on maternity leave with my
second, I took swim lessons with my first. Now...that wasn't so brilliant
as the he would have much rather just hung out with me..we had a long drive
to town etc. but the fact that he had just me really did a lot for him. For
those first few months back at work I'd take an afternoon off every 2 weeks
and spend a couple hours with him before getting the baby. He loved it. We
also did some of that with dh and I. I do think it helped him. He happened
to be an easy toddler but with my second I did the same thing when he was a
toddler. That helped me because he was so difficult with me that some
relaxed onene time helped *me* reconnect with *him*. Don't underestimate
the value of that time for both parties.

Maybe your wife is rationalizing, and maybe she isn't. But there is
isn't much value in forcing her to admit she is rationalizing or
making her give up the day care idea if you think she needs a break.


I agree with that. Just give her a break...anyone would need it :-) The
plan for how best to meet the child's needs could use some discussion
though, IMO.

And, I wouldn't worry so much about the future of having both kids in
day care 18 months from now.


Very good point. Do it (or whatever plan is decided on) for 2-3 months and
re-assess then.

--
Nikki


  #19  
Old April 8th 05, 07:57 PM
Irrational Number
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wrote:

I am having some trouble with my wife. We have two boys, one is
2 months old and the other is 19 months. I work and my wife stays at
home. Lately my older son has been whinning and crying.


You have already gotten some good suggestions. I
just wanted to add a couple of things.

Sleep deprivation is a SERIOUS problem. In a healthy
person, it can cause paranoia and depression. In a mother
with two children under two, it can NOT be pushed away
by saying "she should learn how to discipline the children
and deal with it".

Have you actually walked in her shoes? Not just the before
work, after work, weekend thing... No, I'm saying, can you
take one week off of work and take care of the kids in the
same way that she is? If you cannot, then you must believe
her exhaustion.

And it's pretty clear that she will not admit that she's too
overwhelmed and she will keep saying it's in the best interests
of your older child, and in a way, that is probably true.

Regarding a 19-month-old in daycare... That's how hundreds
of thousands of people do it. If both parents work, then
the 19-month-old (AND the 2-month-old) is in daycare. It's
neither better nor worse, there are good and bad in every
situation; it's basically a choice.

I personally think it would be a good thing for your family
dynamics. The cost will not always be the same; as children
grow older, childcare costs go down. (Well, not childcare,
but the amount you pay to a daycare.) Plus, by the time
your infant is about 2 years old, your older child is likely
in preschool and, later on, kindergarten.

-- Anita --




  #20  
Old April 8th 05, 07:58 PM
Circe
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"Tomwaters" wrote in message
oups.com...
He's just found that life no longer revolves aroud him, and he's
probably having a hard time adjusting. Possibly when he is with
you, you are not also in sole charge of the baby, but when he is
with your wife, she is trying to look after another child too. That
is, the reason you aren't getting the tantrums is because he isn't
jealous that the baby is stealing his time with you.


The strange thing is that with me that really doesn't happen. I often
look after both of them alone and even when both of them want to be
fed at the same time, or the older one wants my attention, I can
usually redirect him and stop his whining until I am finish with the
new born and can pay some attention to the 19 month old.

Well, it doesn't seem strange to me at all. Because you are not around as
much, your 19mo is less certain of you than of your wife. This doesn't mean
he's afraid of you, exactly, but he's not as willing to test your patience
as his mother's.

Children always tend to feel "safest" with their primary caregiver and
therefore, they're more able to "let it all hang out". There's also probably
some tendency for kids to be more certain that "letting it all hang out"
will get the desired result when they do it with their primary caregiver
than when they do it with someone they spend less time with.

It's not exactly familiarity breeding contempt, but it's close g!
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

 




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