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#11
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bizby40 wrote: I hadn't thought so since she wasn't acting out against the baby. How bad did it get? Our older boy is really sweet. He actually like the baby and always wants to go over and kiss him. His acting out begins with him wanting my wife to play, sing, or do something with him. When she can't do it, the acting out escalates without any let up until either she gives in, or he is in a full blown tantrum. Also, you mention that he's whinier with your wife than with you. That too is very common. Children are very often at their worst with their primary caregiver. Not necessarily because she is too lax with him, but simply because he is most comfortable with her. He trusts her enough to fall apart in front of her. Strange, but true. That's probably true. I don't know if she can get him to change his behavior, but I just think she should spend more effort on stopping bad behavior rather than daycare. We must have gone to five or six daycare places and call the children we saw were all in control. When I'm taking care of both kids by myself and the older one wants me to play with him and I can't, he also starts to whine. But the difference is when I raise the tone of my voice and say "Daddy can't play with you because daddy have to take care of Timmy" and I suggest he look at some books or toys, he usually stops. This paragraph struck me as very controlling. It's one thing to say, "Wait until he's potty trained." It's another to try to dictate years in advance how often and for how long he'll go. The years and times is because our community offers a popular program for preschoolers and the age, time, and schedule is dictated by them. I also believe at age 3 and above, the can start to talk and I would feel more comfortable sending them to this kind of program for the kid to play and learn to play with other kids. It's great that you are helping out. You said the baby is only 2 months old. As the weeks go on, he'll get on a better schedule, and she'll get her routines down better, and be able to assume more of the load again. Remember that in addition to caring for the two all day and interrupting her sleep schedule at night, she's also been recovering her health and strength after the pregnancy and birth of a child. She *is* pretty exhausted right now, and it's completely understandable. Yes. I'm hoping thats the reason and it'll go away once things settle down. I don't think there is any reason to send a child this age to daycare. Perhaps instead of just nixing the idea outright, you can find alternatives. One idea might be to have a mother's helper come a couple of times a week. She could perhaps watch the baby while your wife had quality time with your older son, which might help offset some of his jealousy and whining. Or maybe you can find a playgroup. Or can sign your older son up for a toddler gym class or something. Encourage your wife to get together with other mothers as much as possible. Just getting out of the house will be a big relief for her. That's a good idea. We will try to look into something like gymboree. Hopefully she'll meet other mothers and they can get together during the day. Understand that things will get better soon. Understand that your son's whining and tantrums aren't so much a discipline problem as an expression of anxiety. His world has been turned upside down. He needs to be given as much love and attention as possible. Understand that your wife's world has been turned upside down as well. Make sure she knows that you love her and support her, and think she's a *wonderful* mother. Thanks for your reply. My wife is a wonderful mother. |
#12
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"bizby40" wrote in message
... Also, you mention that he's whinier with your wife than with you. That too is very common. Children are very often at their worst with their primary caregiver. Not necessarily because she is too lax with him, but simply because he is most comfortable with her. He trusts her enough to fall apart in front of her. Strange, but true. I wanted to second this (and third and fourth it, too). All three of my children are much better behaved and whine/cry less when they are with my husband than when they are with me alone or with both of us. I firmly believe that this is because my husband is the "novel" parent because he's at work much of the time, and therefore, the kids value their time with him more and don't want to "mess it up" by having him upset with them or by getting into trouble with him. By comparison, I am home most of the time and *my* being upset with them or them being in trouble with me is old hat. I know that my husband often thinks I'm lax when it comes to disciplining them because of the difference in the way they behave when I'm around and when I'm not. But the truth is, I enforce the boundaries and limits *waaaaay* more than my husband does because I am around *waaaaay* more than he is; it's just that he isn't here to see me do it because, well, he isn't here! -- Be well, Barbara Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3) I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan) |
#13
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Tomwaters wrote: electroscopillan wrote: I think you're right about being overwhelmed. When we talked I told her that I won't mind sending the older child to daycare if the reason is she needs a break, but she always insists that it's the best thing because he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things to get stimulated and not bored. I don't want to send the child to daycare for that reason because I think it's too early. Aside from the different view point about whether it's good for him or not, I just don't think we can afford it on a permanent basis, especially if both kids go to day care from toddler to kindergarden. I think you should not worry so much about the reason to send the older child to day care. You seem to think she needs a break, and pretty much everyone I know that has two kids that close in age has needed a break. So in your mind, you are sending the child to day care because your wife needs a break. She is sending him because he needs interactions. So what, the end effect is the same. Maybe your wife is rationalizing, and maybe she isn't. But there is isn't much value in forcing her to admit she is rationalizing or making her give up the day care idea if you think she needs a break. And, I wouldn't worry so much about the future of having both kids in day care 18 months from now. This decision you are making is not forever -- you can revisit it later, reduce the number of days or hours, decide to wait longer to send the younger child, etc. I think the key thing with having a newborn is that with most things, you should do what works for your family now, and not worry about undoing it later. You do that when you need to. Jan |
#14
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Penny Gaines wrote:
I think the real problem is that you have two babies (no matter how big he seems compared to the 2mo, the 19mo is still a baby), and almost everyone would find it hard to cope. You are probably both stressed out, and it is possible your wife has postnatal depression as well. That's probably true. He's just found that life no longer revolves aroud him, and he's probably having a hard time adjusting. Possibly when he is with you, you are not also in sole charge of the baby, but when he is with your wife, she is trying to look after another child too. That is, the reason you aren't getting the tantrums is because he isn't jealous that the baby is stealing his time with you. The strange thing is that with me that really doesn't happen. I often look after both of them alone and even when both of them want to be fed at the same time, or the older one wants my attention, I can usually redirect him and stop his whining until I am finish with the new born and can pay some attention to the 19 month old. I don't think that is an unreasonable ideal for day care use: OTOH, you aren't looking after him for the rest of the time, so you can look at it in a different light to the way your wife is looking at it. Also, if she is exhausted, she probably isn't thinking straight: maybe she would be happy with shorter time, but doesn't think a daycare would offer it. We'll I'm not oppose to daycare if we are in agreement as to why we are sending him there. If it becomes so overwhelming for her, then we really have no choice, and daycare would be the next best option. I just don't want to send him there if the reason is because she thinks it would be good for him to learn and be with other kids, and by not doing so we would put him at a disadvantage in his later years. I think at 19 months the main reason for daycare is to care for the child, not to stimulate and teach him. If you look at their daytime schedule, the interaction or play time is usually for half and hour in the morning and half and hour during the afternoon. And the teaching time is usually for an hour to hour and a half in the morning. All the other times are for diaper changes, lunch preparation, lunch time, pre nap, and 2 1/2 hour of naptime. One option she could consider is perhaps getting a mother's help for a few hours a day. That way, the mother's help could take the older child out so he isn't bored and give your wife the time she wants with the baby. Do you have any suggestions about how to go about getting a mother's helper? Do we just put an ad or is there a place that would have pre screened candidates? It's possible that your wife is feeling guilty that the baby isn't getting the same attention that she gave the older one, and the only way she can see to do this is to send the older one someone else. No, I don't think so. She really plays with the babies alot. She's always reading to them, playing the toys with them, posing them for pictures, taking them outside , doing singing and dancing, etc. She probably pays them too much attention. Her problem only recently started because the whining and crying has got to such a point that he's totally frustrated and can't take it anymore (in my opinion). I think this is nothing to do with whether daycare is in the best interests of your children, and has a huge amount to do with your wife feeling exhausted, over-stretched and unappreciated. From what you have written, there is a certain air of "look at *all* I do, and how little she does", and if you discuss this issue with her like that, she probably feels you don't appreciate that she may well be runing round trying to keep two demanding little tryants happy, and have no idea what it is like for her - and you don't. I'm not trying to belittle what you do, but when you have a single baby, you get lots of time off- eg when the baby is napping - but when you add the second child, you don't have that time off. She is on call the entire time you are at work, she doesn't even get coffee breaks. Yes, I think thats the consensus from most of the replys. I don't mean to appear that I'm doing alot more and she's doing alot less. In fact, before she started insisting on daycare, she was doing most of the work. Only recently have I begun taking care of both of them when I get off work. This way at least she'll have some free time and either go out of the house to the gym or shopping or whatever, or get some sleep or just relax. I'm looking for sound advice and an objective third point of view so I can assess and make a judgement as to whether to give in and send our son to daycare, or hold firm and only send him only if necessary. |
#15
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#16
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In article . com,
"Tomwaters" wrote: she always insists that it's the best thing because he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things to get stimulated and not bored. Many toddlers DO do better when they have other children around. If she is isolated with the two kids all the time -- that is, no other children around, no other parents around -- I can really understand how she feels. My own tendency is to accept people at their word, rather than trying to second guess their "real" motivation. If that really is her primary goal -- to get him around other kids and have the stimulation of a different environment -- there may be other options to pursue, such formal play groups (I used to go to one at a local community center twice a week) or other mom/tot groups. There was also a local church that had a once-a-week "mom's morning out" program, where the children (all younger than school age) were cared for in one room with a paid, professional care provider while the moms had a formal program (the one I remember best was on flower arranging) followed by some informal time together. Some friendships grew out of this, and I enjoyed both the program and the break from my kids. I started getting out and doing things with my three kids when the twins were about six weeks old; my older child was past her 3rd birthday, however, so it was easier than if she'd still been a toddler. It was hard work, but for me it was worth it. I'm a classic Myers-Briggs extrovert -- I need to be around other people to feel recharged; too much time alone (and, frankly, being with an infant and a toddler is about the same as being alone for THAT purpose) and I start to sink into depression. My daughter enjoyed her time with other kids, and the babies seemed pretty oblivious to whether we were at home or out and about. I wish I'd lived where I grew up -- I had cousins having kids about the same time I did, and I know we'd have gotten together during the day. Since at this point you and your wife disagree about day care, it just makes sense to me to drop THAT discussion, and try to have a discussion about what needs of your son's (and your wife's, if she's willing to include that) are not currently being met, and try to research and discuss other ways to meet those needs. You may end up agreeing that day care is the best option -- or you may not. But I think framing it as a discussion about how to get needs met, rather than whether or not to send him to day care, is more likely to be a positive discussion. -- Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care |
#17
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Tomwaters wrote:
I think you're right about being overwhelmed. When we talked I told her that I won't mind sending the older child to daycare if the reason is she needs a break, but she always insists that it's the best thing because he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things to get stimulated and not bored. But if she admits that it's because she's overwhelmed, then she's admitting to being an "inadequate" mother. She may feel a need to frame it as something that's best for the child in order to salvage some dignity for herself, especially if she's struggling with postpartum depression. You may need to tread very carefully to find a compromise solution. I don't want to send the child to daycare for that reason because I think it's too early. Aside from the different view point about whether it's good for him or not, I just don't think we can afford it on a permanent basis, especially if both kids go to day care from toddler to kindergarden. The finances are a very viable concern. Clearly, it is not necessary for your toddler to be in full time daycare for him to be properly socialized. Equally clearly, having him in daycare is not having strangers raise him and isn't some sort of awful thing. Personally, while I'm not anti-Montessori in general, I'd beware of buying into the notion that your toddler really needs to be in it five full days a week. If they're really pushing that, I'd be skeptical. I understand that some Montessori schools push that, but honestly, the child's only 19 months old. I rather suspect that something short of full time (combined with appropriate care for PPD, if your wife has it) will provide sufficient respite, especially as the new baby gets older, at a cost that isn't so burdensome to your family. I wouldn't get too didactic about how many hours when. Different kids are different and thrive on different things. My third will go off to a 3 hour, 2 days/week program just after she turns 2 years old. She's very social and thrives on being around other kids and structured activities and I'll be thrilled for her to have those experiences while I get a few hours to get some other stuff done without tending to the needs of a very active toddler. I don't think it'll harm her a bit. In fact, I think it will be quite beneficial for her, though I don't think all 2yos need to be in such programs and some 2yos won't really be ready for one. I think you really have to separate out your issues here. One is that your wife is overwhelmed, possibly complicated by PPD. You've obviously tried to deal with that by providing a lot of support while you're home, but you can't really do anything about the long day while you're gone. Some additional resources seem in order, both to provide some respite and to evaluate whether PPD is a problem. I don't think you can further address the question of the toddler's needs until you make some progress on the first set of issues. I'd be looking to put a temporary situation in place until those can be dealt with. Best wishes, Ericka |
#18
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#19
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#20
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"Tomwaters" wrote in message
oups.com... He's just found that life no longer revolves aroud him, and he's probably having a hard time adjusting. Possibly when he is with you, you are not also in sole charge of the baby, but when he is with your wife, she is trying to look after another child too. That is, the reason you aren't getting the tantrums is because he isn't jealous that the baby is stealing his time with you. The strange thing is that with me that really doesn't happen. I often look after both of them alone and even when both of them want to be fed at the same time, or the older one wants my attention, I can usually redirect him and stop his whining until I am finish with the new born and can pay some attention to the 19 month old. Well, it doesn't seem strange to me at all. Because you are not around as much, your 19mo is less certain of you than of your wife. This doesn't mean he's afraid of you, exactly, but he's not as willing to test your patience as his mother's. Children always tend to feel "safest" with their primary caregiver and therefore, they're more able to "let it all hang out". There's also probably some tendency for kids to be more certain that "letting it all hang out" will get the desired result when they do it with their primary caregiver than when they do it with someone they spend less time with. It's not exactly familiarity breeding contempt, but it's close g! -- Be well, Barbara Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3) I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan) |
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