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#21
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In article .com,
beeswing wrote: Robyn Kozierok wrote: SNIP Having read a bit more of the book more thoroughly, it seems like their approach to this would be to, indeed, get angry, and confront him about it according to a formula they provide, which would come out something like this: "E, I'm frustrated! I think I should be able to get you into the car in time to pick up the big boys without it being a big struggle every time. You are climbing over the seat right now instead of sitting still to get buckled, and you are making us late to pick up the big boys, which isn't fair to them or their teacher. I need to know that I can get you into the car quickly when we have to get somewhere at a particular time." Which is all very well and good, and I'm willing to give it a try, but I'm not too optimistic about getting a useful response to that from a 4yo. I don't know that it's any consolation, but it wouldn't work with my profoundly tween 10.5 year old, either. She needs things that affect her directly (I try to connect them logically, if I at all can). Frankly, we do a lot of bribing with television. I wouldn't call you a hopeless parent at all. I think most of us do things like this all the time. I'm trying to get away from bribing so much. It's easy and it works, in the short term. But I'd like to get my kids to a point where they do things because they are "right", kind, considerate, moral, etc... When we bribe so much, we end up with kids who will always want to know, "what will you give me if I do?" Threatening is really the same. They are doing or not doing the action because of some external consequence, not for the "good" reasons we hope for them to do things. For a 4yo, it is a bit much to ask; for a 10yo, I think, not so much. My 11yo responds well to thinking about the deeper reasons for things like this. My 8yo is starting to see beyond the end of his nose. I've made it an explicit goal to keep them moving in this direction, which is why I'm thinking about this so much. Is it practical with a 4yo, or do you just "sow the seeds" while using the more effective tools as well? --Robyn .. |
#22
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Robyn Kozierok wrote:
In article .com, beeswing wrote: Robyn Kozierok wrote: SNIP Having read a bit more of the book more thoroughly, it seems like their approach to this would be to, indeed, get angry, and confront him about it according to a formula they provide, which would come out something like this: "E, I'm frustrated! I think I should be able to get you into the car in time to pick up the big boys without it being a big struggle every time. You are climbing over the seat right now instead of sitting still to get buckled, and you are making us late to pick up the big boys, which isn't fair to them or their teacher. I need to know that I can get you into the car quickly when we have to get somewhere at a particular time." Which is all very well and good, and I'm willing to give it a try, but I'm not too optimistic about getting a useful response to that from a 4yo. I don't know that it's any consolation, but it wouldn't work with my profoundly tween 10.5 year old, either. She needs things that affect her directly (I try to connect them logically, if I at all can). Frankly, we do a lot of bribing with television. I wouldn't call you a hopeless parent at all. I think most of us do things like this all the time. I'm trying to get away from bribing so much. It's easy and it works, in the short term. But I'd like to get my kids to a point where they do things because they are "right", kind, considerate, moral, etc... When we bribe so much, we end up with kids who will always want to know, "what will you give me if I do?" Threatening is really the same. They are doing or not doing the action because of some external consequence, not for the "good" reasons we hope for them to do things. For a 4yo, it is a bit much to ask; for a 10yo, I think, not so much. My 11yo responds well to thinking about the deeper reasons for things like this. My 8yo is starting to see beyond the end of his nose. I've made it an explicit goal to keep them moving in this direction, which is why I'm thinking about this so much. Is it practical with a 4yo, or do you just "sow the seeds" while using the more effective tools as well? Don't get me wrong, we've talked through the reasons and the "whys" with The Kid since she was 4 or even before (at what was a developmentally appropropriate level at the time...answers are more indepth and complex these days then they were then, obviously). It's just not necessarily what motivated her at 4, and it's not what will motivate her *promptly enough* at 10. There's time in between incidents to talk, for example, about why dad gets frustrated, how it makes him feel, how it makes him act (growly), and what she can do personally to help the situation. We talk like that. A lot. And we hit the subject in question more than once. But when you are in a hurry and just need to get out the door, for us, at least, isn't a practical time to lay on the reasoning, at least in any depth. The end of the day, when it's quiet, might be a better time. (I don't know that this will work with a 4 YO. For them, things seem to need to be handled immediately, in our experience, or not at all.) beeswing --Robyn . |
#23
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In ,
Scott wrote: *This is a general question for all parents, I guess, 'cause *I'm curious: how much time elapses between when your kid *is out of bed, and out the door to school? J (4.5) gets up between 6:30 and 7:30 (lately, more likely 7:30! woo hoo!). We leave the house at 8:45 to go to school. N (2.5) gets up between 5:00 and 6:30, SIGH. *We live a 5 minute walk from high school. It'll be interesting *to see how close they cut that when the time comes. I lived a 2 minute walk from elementary school, and a 5 minute walk from high school. I would roll out of bed and run to school with a comb in my hand... -- Hillary Israeli, VMD Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read." --Groucho Marx |
#24
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Scott wrote:
This is a general question for all parents, I guess, 'cause I'm curious: how much time elapses between when your kid is out of bed, and out the door to school? Younger DD (8 yo) can do it in half an hour. Older DD (11) needs every bit of 45 minutes - she moves very slowly first thing while she's still waking, spends a bit of time getting her hair "just right", and she has more responsibility for getting her lunch put together than the younger one. Lesley |
#25
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"Scott" wrote in message
... This is a general question for all parents, I guess, 'cause I'm curious: how much time elapses between when your kid is out of bed, and out the door to school? Rose is usually out of bed maybe at 6:20, earlier if she's taking a shower. We leave the house at 6:50 so she can be at jazz band practice before school at 7:00 AM. Emma gets up around 7:00 or 7:15, but she doesn't have to be at school until 8:55, so she hangs out for quite a bit before getting on her bike or scooter to ride to school. Since about November I've been doing the jazz band hauling -- my husband makes sure Emma's out the door in the morning. -- Warm Regards, Claire Petersky Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/ See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky |
#26
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In article .com,
wrote: In my family, the logical consequence of not getting into your car seat is that a parent physically does it for you. Some days, I just don't have the energy ;-) He's getting strong. btw, the car seat thing wasn't meant as a huge problem I needed solved, just a day to day instance of things I want my young child to do that he doesn't necessarily want to do, and where the natural (rather than logical) consequences don't matter to him. Cases where I might tend to use bribes or more "punitive" consequences. --Robyn .. |
#27
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In article ,
Scott wrote: This is a general question for all parents, I guess, 'cause I'm curious: how much time elapses between when your kid is out of bed, and out the door to school? I first wake all 3 boys at 6:50. We aim to be out the door by 7:30, but it is usually more like 7:40. Seems ridiculously long to me (on the rare occasions that it's just me leaving, I can be up and out in under 15 minutes) but they take a long time to "get going" at first. Next year we won't have to leave the house until 8:15, which is much more reasonable, IM-night-owl-O. --Robyn .. |
#28
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In article ,
Scott wrote: "E, I'm frustrated! I think I should be able to get you into the car in time to pick up the big boys without it being a big struggle every time. You are climbing over the seat right now instead of sitting still to get buckled, and you are making us late to pick up the big boys, which isn't fair to them or their teacher. I need to know that I can get you into the car quickly when we have to get somewhere at a particular time." BTW, I can't stand the 'it isn't fair' argument. Things aren't fair -- so what? Life isn't fair. So DD and DS know not to use that line of reasoning on me I'm assuming you are referinng to the "isn't fair to them or their teacher" comment above. I didn't really mean "fair" in that sense ("equal") there -- I meant "considerate" or "reasonable". That usage makes sense to us, but if you have an aversion to saying "fair" say something else. --Robyn .. |
#29
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#30
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"Scott" wrote in message
... BTW, I can't stand the 'it isn't fair' argument. Things aren't fair -- so what? Life isn't fair. So DD and DS know not to use that line of reasoning on me I know I'm rather the opposite from many parents on this, but I never tell my kids that life isn't fair. I tell them that I will do my best to be fair with them, but things will not always be equal. In fact, any average day, things will not be equal. In other words, it just may happen that this time your sister will get a bigger cookie than you. Or we will spend the whole day focused on one child and not the other, because that day is her special day and not yours. It could even happen that we will spend more money on one sister's education, because she made a special effort to get in to Prestigious University, and the other sister decided to party through high school, so she's going to the local community college. None of these are situations in which the child is treated equally to the other at that particular moment. In general and over time, though, we will try to be fair and just to both. And for what it's worth, I can't think of a time when a kid has used the "it isn't fair" argument with me, either. They simply know it's not effective here. As for life in general, outside of our household not being fair -- well, sometimes it looks that way. But I personally do not believe in a random and capricious universe. That doesn't absolve you from fighting for what is right -- rather the opposite. You are one of the ways that the universe is going to put itself into balance and into justice for everyone. -- Warm Regards, Claire Petersky Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/ See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky |
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