Dealing with bully behavior

Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD, takes
Adderall (sp?) daily (school-days only) to help him focus. Like many
(most?) ADHD children, he tends to me overly emotional, cries easily,
and takes a good bit of teasing ("cry baby") at school for it. We're
working on dealing with the crying issues - I explained to him that
crying is like using the bathroom, something everyone does, but better
done behind a closed door when you're out in public. He seemed to
understand that, and has (supposedly) been making an effort not to cry
in front of classmates/at school.

Now, though, he's in trouble for bully behavior. I'm forever hearing
"the other kids pick on me," but now he's apparently started picking on
one of the other kids - a boy that was, supposedly, his friend, and that
he admits hasn't really done anything to him or been anything but nice
to him recently. This boy also happens to be the math teacher's son, and
I'm not sure if that has anything to do with what's going on or not. I
got called on this today, by the school counselor - and this one was
apparently the third or fourth incident in the last few weeks. First I'd
heard of it.

There've been other stresses in our home-life, recently. I lost my job
about 6 weeks ago - was asked to resign due to a hearing problem that
made me unfit for duty, and there was no 'reasonable accomodation' that
could be made. I've been job-hunting, money's been tight, we've had to
cut most of the few luxuries we'd managed to keep after his dad and I
separated... I got a job offer this morning, which I accepted, and which
should ease the stress at home, but... How likely is it that the current
behavior problem is related to home stress?

My standing rule is that anytime he gets into trouble enough at school
to be put on restriction (losing recess and/or having to sit at the
'silent lunch' table), he gets put on video game/t.v. restriction at
home for the same number of days. My mother keeps telling me I'm being
too harsh when I do this (of course, she also thinks I'm too strict
because I insist he use good manners, and say 'please,' 'thank you,'
'ma'am,' and 'sir', and not call an adult by their first name unless
they specifically invite him to do so), but the restrictions at school
really don't seem to mean a whole lot to him, while the video game
restriction at home hits him where it really hurts - he'd LIVE by the
video game system, if allowed to do so, and his time is already
restricted on school days due to homework, time constraints, and me
insisting we spend at least a LITTLE bit of family time together every day.

We've discussed the bully thing, and he insists he doesn't know WHY he's
mad at the other kid and been picking on him, he just was and did. I've
set him up to see the school counselor once a week, until we get the
behavior problem worked out again, reminded him of the restrictions
rule, and told him that bullying is unacceptable.

Questions a
1) Am I being too harsh, with the restrictions rule?
2)a) How likely is it that the bullying thing is related to the home
stress, and b) how likely that it will smooth out now that I have a job
again (I will, if the paperwork is all done quickly enough, be starting
next Monday)?
3) Am I over-reacting, setting him up for weekly visits with the
counselor? She usually just checks on him with his teacher(s) once a
week or so, to monitor behavior due to the ADHD and the divorce-in-process.
4) Can anyone offer any suggestions on other ways of dealing with the
bullying and crying issues?

Mine is a good kid, gives very little trouble most of the time, but -
like most kids his age that I've met - will try to wriggle out of
admitting to anything that might get him into trouble, if he thinks he
can get away with it. He's definitely a drama king, but I've never
really known him to be a bully. Not since we got him on the meds for the
ADHD, anyway - his behavior and focus-ability have steadied out a lot.
Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?

Observations, advice, etc. are all welcomed. I know I'm not a perfect
Mom - don't know anyone who is - but I feel like I'm missing something here.

Thanks in advance.

~ Dor

Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD, takes
Adderall (sp?) daily (school-days only) to help him focus. Like many
(most?) ADHD children, he tends to me overly emotional, cries easily,
and takes a good bit of teasing ("cry baby") at school for it. We're
working on dealing with the crying issues - I explained to him that
crying is like using the bathroom, something everyone does, but better
done behind a closed door when you're out in public. He seemed to
understand that, and has (supposedly) been making an effort not to cry
in front of classmates/at school.

Now, though, he's in trouble for bully behavior. I'm forever hearing
"the other kids pick on me," but now he's apparently started picking on
one of the other kids - a boy that was, supposedly, his friend, and that
he admits hasn't really done anything to him or been anything but nice
to him recently. This boy also happens to be the math teacher's son, and
I'm not sure if that has anything to do with what's going on or not. I
got called on this today, by the school counselor - and this one was
apparently the third or fourth incident in the last few weeks. First I'd
heard of it.

There've been other stresses in our home-life, recently. I lost my job
about 6 weeks ago - was asked to resign due to a hearing problem that
made me unfit for duty, and there was no 'reasonable accomodation' that
could be made. I've been job-hunting, money's been tight, we've had to
cut most of the few luxuries we'd managed to keep after his dad and I
separated... I got a job offer this morning, which I accepted, and which
should ease the stress at home, but... How likely is it that the current
behavior problem is related to home stress?

My standing rule is that anytime he gets into trouble enough at school
to be put on restriction (losing recess and/or having to sit at the
'silent lunch' table), he gets put on video game/t.v. restriction at
home for the same number of days. My mother keeps telling me I'm being
too harsh when I do this (of course, she also thinks I'm too strict
because I insist he use good manners, and say 'please,' 'thank you,'
'ma'am,' and 'sir', and not call an adult by their first name unless
they specifically invite him to do so), but the restrictions at school
really don't seem to mean a whole lot to him, while the video game
restriction at home hits him where it really hurts - he'd LIVE by the
video game system, if allowed to do so, and his time is already
restricted on school days due to homework, time constraints, and me
insisting we spend at least a LITTLE bit of family time together every day.

We've discussed the bully thing, and he insists he doesn't know WHY he's
mad at the other kid and been picking on him, he just was and did. I've
set him up to see the school counselor once a week, until we get the
behavior problem worked out again, reminded him of the restrictions
rule, and told him that bullying is unacceptable.

Questions a
1) Am I being too harsh, with the restrictions rule?
2)a) How likely is it that the bullying thing is related to the home
stress, and b) how likely that it will smooth out now that I have a job
again (I will, if the paperwork is all done quickly enough, be starting
next Monday)?
3) Am I over-reacting, setting him up for weekly visits with the
counselor? She usually just checks on him with his teacher(s) once a
week or so, to monitor behavior due to the ADHD and the divorce-in-process.
4) Can anyone offer any suggestions on other ways of dealing with the
bullying and crying issues?

Mine is a good kid, gives very little trouble most of the time, but -
like most kids his age that I've met - will try to wriggle out of
admitting to anything that might get him into trouble, if he thinks he
can get away with it. He's definitely a drama king, but I've never
really known him to be a bully. Not since we got him on the meds for the
ADHD, anyway - his behavior and focus-ability have steadied out a lot.
Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?

Observations, advice, etc. are all welcomed. I know I'm not a perfect
Mom - don't know anyone who is - but I feel like I'm missing something here.

Thanks in advance.

~ Dor

If he's playing video games to the extent you mention he may be wrongly
diagnosed. True ADHD can't focus for long enough periods to play video games
extensively.

Perhaps his issues are more emotional than physical (why the counsellor would
be a GOOD thing).

Bullying is sign of insecurity. Feel stronger by making others feel weaker.

Combined with the other behaviors and your current circumstances (both within
and outside of your control) I'd say he has good reason to be insecure.

You are doing well in setting firm limits and expectations of behavior. Kids
need structure and stability and consistency (mixed with a LOT of love).
Wouldn't hurt to do a little introspection into your parenting and see where
you can reassure him that YOU are in control.


Just my 2 cents.........
Christine

Purchgdss wrote:
Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD, takes

snipped for space

Thanks in advance.

~ Dor


If he's playing video games to the extent you mention he may be wrongly
diagnosed. True ADHD can't focus for long enough periods to play video games
extensively.


I've been wondering a little bit about the ADHD diagnosis, recently. He
actually does display many/most of the "classic" symptoms - inability to
concentrate/focus for extended periods of time, inability to sit still
for any appreciable period, etc. According to the pediatrician, when we
started him on the medication for it, she said it would either make a
world of difference overnight, if he truly WAS ADHD, or it would make no
apparent difference whatsoever, if he wasn't. It made such a difference
the first day he took it that he commented on it himself when he got
home from school (he was 7, at the time, in first grade).

Recently, though, *I* was diagnosed with a Central Auditory Processing
Disorder. I did some research on APDs, of course, and found that they
are frequently mis-diagnosed as ADD or ADHD in children, due to a
similarity in symptoms - it's difficult and frustrating to try to focus
on something in school when you can't always understand what the teacher
is saying, and children with CAPDs frequently have high intelligence but
accompanied by low-level learning disorders such as mild dyslexia or
discalcula (sp?).

He does play video games a lot, if allowed - they are his dad's favorite
hobby, and I think he sort of sees it as a way to connect with his dad.
Truthfully, Dad didn't really spend a lot of time with him until he got
to an age where he was able to do stuff that interested Dad - like
playing video games. Drives me nuts to see him (my son) playing them,
sometimes, because it's not at all unusual to walk into his room when he
has his "freetime" to find the TV going on a show, the radio/CD player
going on the other side of the room, and him sprawled in the floor
playing his Gameboy. And he, supposedly, is paying attention to all
three at the same time. *I* can't pull that one off - although I'm
coming to realize that it may be due more to my CAPD than to it being
really difficult for a 'normal' person to do(?), but he seems to thrive
on it.

Perhaps his issues are more emotional than physical (why the counsellor would
be a GOOD thing).

Bullying is sign of insecurity. Feel stronger by making others feel weaker.

Combined with the other behaviors and your current circumstances (both within
and outside of your control) I'd say he has good reason to be insecure.

You are doing well in setting firm limits and expectations of behavior. Kids
need structure and stability and consistency (mixed with a LOT of love).
Wouldn't hurt to do a little introspection into your parenting and see where
you can reassure him that YOU are in control.


Just my 2 cents.........
Christine

Your two cents are at least a dollar's worth of things to think about. :-)

Fourth grade, in our school, is REALLY different from third - they are
changing classes for different subjects, for the first time, and are
required to be very organized, keeping everything in specific order in
their notebooks for each class, etc. I'm suspecting that this, with the
other stuff at home, may be contributing to the problems.

I haven't been the best example of organization at home, over the years,
I know, though I'm trying to improve. I grew up in too big a family (8
kids plus parent/step-parent) living in too small a house (3 bedrooms),
so was used to things always being cluttered up from too little space.
Our house, now, is rarely truly dirty, but it does get pretty
clutter-messy at times. I'm working on it, but still have a ways to go.

What I'm getting out of your 2 cents is to keep doing what I'm doing
(regardless what my Mom thinks of me being 'so strict' :-) ), keep
trying to improve my own organizational skills and help him learn them,
and keep spending as much time as I can with him. And check into getting
him evaluated for the APD, once I have medical insurance again to cover
the cost. Yes?

Thanks for the observations - I know I don't always have a balanced view
of discipline with my son, and it helps to get other people's
opinions/ovservations from time to time. My Dad (birth as opposed to
step) was an extremely domineering sort with a very heavy hand, and I
have a tendency to err on the over-lenient side in trying to avoid being
harmfully harsh, like he was. But I'm also acutely aware that a parent
can do more harm than good by being TOO lenient, too. It's not an easy
balance to find, for me.

I try to avoid spankings, for instance, whenever possible, but have set
rules about when my son WILL get one - such as for fighting in school
(except in self defense), or when he pulls something that could be
dangerous to himself or others. And I've made sure he knows what will
get him spanked. The rare times he breaks one of the 'spanking rules', I
think my son gets more upset about the IDEA of getting a spanking than
about the actual spanking itself - because I usually end up crying right
along with him, the whole time I'm 'administering justice'. I won't use
anything but my hand on his backside - it would be too easy to do injury
any other way, as I saw more than once as a child - but it's still
upsetting.

I sometimes wish kids came with Owners' Manuals, you know? It would sure
make them easier to raise. Maybe. :-) Thanks again.

~ Dor

"Istara" wrote in message
Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD,

Not possibble to diagnose that early here in Ireland. Too many other
possibilities.
Better not to drug young children but look for other alternatives.


Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?

Yeah, drop the lot.

Dennis

Istara wrote in message ...

Here's my thoughts.
Questions a
1) Am I being too harsh, with the restrictions rule?

It seems to me you aren't being too harsh, but maybe another sort of
punishment is appropriate. I mean, if has to sit out recess and then
sit out other activities at the end of the day, he may have a lot of
energy built up that he may need to spend.

2)a) How likely is it that the bullying thing is related to the home
stress, and b) how likely that it will smooth out now that I have a job
again (I will, if the paperwork is all done quickly enough, be starting
next Monday)?

Gee, I don't know if job will smooth out, or if it will get worse. I
think bullying may be related to home stress. It makes senses that
anxieties would overlap the two arenas.

3) Am I over-reacting, setting him up for weekly visits with the
counselor? She usually just checks on him with his teacher(s) once a
week or so, to monitor behavior due to the ADHD and the divorce-in-process.

The more counseling, the better, would be my thought. Perhaps, family
(mom and son) sessions, too?

4) Can anyone offer any suggestions on other ways of dealing with the
bullying and crying issues?

Poor kid, wish it was obvious to try a fix in a specific area...
sometimes school/life is just so hard on some people at various stages
in life. I can only think of introducing him to some diversionary
activity that he may be interested in that may fulfill him somehow.
Does he have a pet? Can you enroll him in non-school activity or
athletic afterschool program?


Mine is a good kid, gives very little trouble most of the time, but -
like most kids his age that I've met - will try to wriggle out of
admitting to anything that might get him into trouble, if he thinks he
can get away with it. He's definitely a drama king, but I've never
really known him to be a bully. Not since we got him on the meds for the
ADHD, anyway - his behavior and focus-ability have steadied out a lot.
Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?

Observations, advice, etc. are all welcomed. I know I'm not a perfect
Mom - don't know anyone who is - but I feel like I'm missing something here.

I wish I knew more about ADHD. I would definitly have the dosage
re-evaluated since you've mentioned that the focus-ability has
steadied. Perhaps, this will help. Maybe someone will suggest stopping
it, altogether?...

Karen

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:19:16 +0100, "denanson" Dennis@Large .ie
wrote:


"Istara" wrote in message
Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD,

Not possibble to diagnose that early here in Ireland. Too many other
possibilities.
Better not to drug young children but look for other alternatives.


Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?

Yeah, drop the lot.

Dennis

Hold up, Dennis. It's better not to drug young children
*inappropriately*, to be sure. But surely you're not saying that
diabetic kids should go without insulin, or that kids with heart
transplants should do without anti-rejection drugs? Or that kids with
massive infection shouldn't get antibiotics? For a kid with *true*
ADHD, as opposed to the sort of bandied-about-facsimile that is so
popular, the meds can be every bit that necessary.

*Inappropriate* drugging, on the other hand, is abuse, IMO.

Cele

Cele wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:19:16 +0100, "denanson" Dennis@Large .ie
wrote:


"Istara" wrote in message

Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD,

Not possibble to diagnose that early here in Ireland. Too many other
possibilities.
Better not to drug young children but look for other alternatives.



Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?

Yeah, drop the lot.

Dennis


Hold up, Dennis. It's better not to drug young children
*inappropriately*, to be sure. But surely you're not saying that
diabetic kids should go without insulin, or that kids with heart
transplants should do without anti-rejection drugs? Or that kids with
massive infection shouldn't get antibiotics? For a kid with *true*
ADHD, as opposed to the sort of bandied-about-facsimile that is so
popular, the meds can be every bit that necessary.

*Inappropriate* drugging, on the other hand, is abuse, IMO.

Cele
I've been thinking about how to respond to Dennis's observation...

I'm pretty well convinced that my son does have ADHD, at least
mild-to-moderately. Our pediatrician is of a "wait and see" mind on
non-critical issues, does NOT like to over-medicate a child, and has
been very picky and fussy about my son's diagnosis and treatment. We
keep a regular watch on his behavior at school and home, so that we can
spot any sudden or unexplained changes in behavior that might (or might
not) be related to the ADHD, and especially so since his dad and I
separated.

I did NOT want to medicate him, initially - I'd heard of and observed
some pretty disturbing side effects from some of the drugs used for it.
But... My youngest brother was/is ADHD, my son's dad has ADD, and it
does tend to 'run' in families. According to what I've read over the
last couple of years, a child is something like 30% more likely than
average to have either one of these disorders if one parent has it in
their immediate family (as with one of their siblings) and can be as
much as 50-60% more likely than average to have it if both parents have
it in the immediate family, or if one of the child's parents has the
disorder.

The particular medication my son is on is a fairly low-dosage extended
release med, taken once a day, and it's out of his system again within
10-12 hours. I've noticed none of the side-effects I saw in my brother,
20 years ago, or even in the neighbor's grandson (my son's age, on a
different med), the past year or two - not even mildly. And, according
to the pediatrician, the stuff would have made him MORE
exciteable/emotional/etc. if he did NOT have ADHD. Instead, it's taken
just enough of the edge off for him to be able to stay in focus and on
task for 'normal' time periods. Doesn't seem to really have reduced his
energy much, just gives his self-control a little 'oomph'.

Prob is, to me... Having recently had the Central Auditory Processing
Disorder (CAPD) diagnosis on myself, and with the available info
indicating that it is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD in small
children, AND knowing that my son has had ear/hearing problems in the
past, I'm planning to have him screened for the CAPD as soon as I can
afford the cost of the screening - it may be a contributing factor to
some of the behavior problems that we've always put down to the ADHD.

~ Dor

Istara wrote in message t...
Prob is, to me... Having recently had the Central Auditory Processing
Disorder (CAPD) diagnosis on myself, and with the available info
indicating that it is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD in small
children, AND knowing that my son has had ear/hearing problems in the
past, I'm planning to have him screened for the CAPD as soon as I can
afford the cost of the screening - it may be a contributing factor to
some of the behavior problems that we've always put down to the ADHD.

Good progressive thinking! Keep us posted. I think you are on the right track!

Karen

"Cele" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:19:16 +0100, "denanson" Dennis@Large .ie
wrote:


"Istara" wrote in message
Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD,

Not possibble to diagnose that early here in Ireland. Too many other
possibilities.
Better not to drug young children but look for other alternatives.


Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?

Yeah, drop the lot.

Hold up, Dennis. It's better not to drug young children
*inappropriately*, to be sure. But surely you're not saying that
diabetic kids should go without insulin, or that kids with heart
transplants should do without anti-rejection drugs? Or that kids with
massive infection shouldn't get antibiotics?

No, I am not saying that.

For a kid with *true*
ADHD, as opposed to the sort of bandied-about-facsimile that is so
popular, the meds can be every bit that necessary.

I merely pointed out that an ADHD diagnosis was not possible in Ireland for
a child of that age. I have said why on other occasions over the years. On
that basis, any drug to treat ADHD woud be inaprpriate.
*Inappropriate* drugging, on the other hand, is abuse, IMO.

Like I said.

Dennis

"Istara" wrote in message

I've been thinking about how to respond to Dennis's observation...

But this reply is to Celia's post.

I'm pretty well convinced that my son does have ADHD, at least
mild-to-moderately. Our pediatrician is of a "wait and see" mind on
non-critical issues, does NOT like to over-medicate a child, and has
been very picky and fussy about my son's diagnosis and treatment. We
keep a regular watch on his behavior at school and home, so that we can
spot any sudden or unexplained changes in behavior that might (or might
not) be related to the ADHD, and especially so since his dad and I
separated.

I did NOT want to medicate him, initially - I'd heard of and observed
some pretty disturbing side effects from some of the drugs used for it.
But... My youngest brother was/is ADHD, my son's dad has ADD, and it
does tend to 'run' in families. According to what I've read over the
last couple of years, a child is something like 30% more likely than
average to have either one of these disorders if one parent has it in
their immediate family (as with one of their siblings) and can be as
much as 50-60% more likely than average to have it if both parents have
it in the immediate family, or if one of the child's parents has the
disorder.

The particular medication my son is on is a fairly low-dosage extended
release med, taken once a day, and it's out of his system again within
10-12 hours. I've noticed none of the side-effects I saw in my brother,
20 years ago, or even in the neighbor's grandson (my son's age, on a
different med), the past year or two - not even mildly. And, according
to the pediatrician, the stuff would have made him MORE
exciteable/emotional/etc. if he did NOT have ADHD. Instead, it's taken
just enough of the edge off for him to be able to stay in focus and on
task for 'normal' time periods. Doesn't seem to really have reduced his
energy much, just gives his self-control a little 'oomph'.

Prob is, to me... Having recently had the Central Auditory Processing
Disorder (CAPD) diagnosis on myself, and with the available info
indicating that it is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD in small
children, AND knowing that my son has had ear/hearing problems in the
past, I'm planning to have him screened for the CAPD as soon as I can
afford the cost of the screening - it may be a contributing factor to
some of the behavior problems that we've always put down to the ADHD.

You sound like the hypacondriac who wanted his epitaph to be "I told you so"

Dennis