A Parenting & kids forum. ParentingBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ParentingBanter.com forum » misc.kids » Kids Health
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old July 10th 03, 01:35 AM
Tsu Dho Nimh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors

"Roger Schlafly" wrote:

"Tsu Dho Nimh" wrote
Yes. Plus delayed development, less sound sleep, less sleep for
the moms, etc. The BS campaign was a bad idea.


Can you show evidence of the supposed delays in development, and
less sound sleep?


Try this:

The pattern of early motor development is affected by sleep position.
(Stomach sleepers) attain several motor milestones earlier than (back
sleepers).
http://www.kids-md.com/Tipsheets/21_.../crawling.html


It doesn't back up your argument that sleeping supine is bad for
children:

“ ... now about a third of babies skip the step of crawling and
go right to walking,” says Dr. Dewling. “The babies in the study
that skipped the crawling stage,” says Dr. Dewling, “all learned
to walk at the same time as the babies who crawled"

" The study’s conclusion?
The pattern of early motor development is affected by sleep
position. (Stomach sleepers) attain several motor milestones
earlier than (back sleepers). However, all infants achieved all
milestones within the accepted normal age range. Pediatricians
can use this information to reassure parents. This difference in
milestone attainment is not a reason to abandon the American
Academy of Pediatrics’ (APA) sleep position recommendations.”

So is they are all learning to walk, what's the problem?

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré
  #22  
Old July 10th 03, 01:43 AM
Jeff Utz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors


"JG" wrote in message
t...
"Elizabeth Reid" wrote in message
om...

"JG" wrote in message

et...

"Elizabeth Reid" wrote in message
om...


The risk of having a misshapen head that's severe enough to
be noticed or need correction is also very small.


...It should be *ZERO*.


The number of children dying of SIDS should be ZERO, too. Unfortunately, we
don't live in a perfect world.

How in the world could an otherwise competent
parent let his/her child's head deformity get to the point that it's
noticeable (and likely commented upon by family/friends) without at
least questioning/investigating why and taking some common-sense
measures (e.g., the suggestions mentioned in the article)?


How do some parents let their kids get obese?

We all
wonder about those parents who, on summer days, "forgot" that their
(sleeping?) kids were strapped in their car seats and, upon returning to
their cars hours later, found them dead, or those parents who left young
kids alone in a bathtub for "just a second" and then returned to find
they'd drowned, or (my favorite) those parents who've run over their
kids with a lawn mower. These are all "instantaneous" accidents
(problems); they didn't develop gradually. (Of course, other negligent
behavior also occurs over longer time periods; e.g., some parents are
apparently oblivious to their kids' obesity or anorexia.)


That is one thing that is not true about SIDS. It is not a problem that
develops gradually. One minute you have a live kids sleeping, the next
minute, you don't have a live kid.

I guess you think a little head deformity is worse than a cold kid.

Why do parents of kids whose heads have become misshapen due to their
(parents') rigid adherence to the "Back to Sleep" rule view it as
immutable? Are they just plain dumb, or are they afraid to question the
advice-giver's (physician's) supposed expertise? Physicians have been
sued for not giving their patients enough information--for not doing
enough to "help" their patients (e.g., not explaining "well enough" the
consequences of detrimental, avoidable behaviors); will a pediatrician
now be sued for advice he/she HAS dispensed ("We recommend putting
babies face-up; it's been shown to decrease the risk of SIDS") by the
parent(s) of a kid with a deformed skull? (Don't laugh; who'd have
thought, a decade ago, that people would actually file lawsuits against
fast-food restaurants and food manufacturers for "making" them obese?)


Part of the well child check is to look at every square inch of body,
including the skull.

It sounds as if you think that letting kids get a mishapen skull for short
period of time is worse than about 1 kid in 1200 dying unnecessarily.

Especially since,
as the article you quoted points out, there are ways to avoid those
problems without placing a child in the marginally riskier face-down
position. Is it really all that tough to take the recommendations
mentioned in the article, such as shifting the child's head and
making sure she/he doesn't spend all waking hours on his/her back?


Apparently it is, for some parents (up to 48%!), that "tough."

If a parent takes a little care, both risks can be minimized.
Problem(?) solved!


The problem of misshapen heads, perhaps. NOT the problem of parents who
are dolts, however...


So which is better, 1 dead kid or 1200 kids who have slightly mishapen
skulls for a period of time?

"Doomsday," IMO, is already upon us (the US).


You may or may not be right, but I can safely say that
the conviction that civilization has finally and irretrievably gone
to hell in a handbasket is about ten minutes older than
civilization itself.


Not civilization per se. Just the US.

It'd be nice if common sense and skepticism
were thicker on the ground, but I'd take some powerful convincing
that things are demonstrably worse now than any other point in
history.


A topic that could be debated ad nauseam g.




  #23  
Old July 10th 03, 05:52 AM
PF Riley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors

On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:59:43 -0400, "Jeff Utz"
wrote:

"Roger Schlafly" wrote in message
...
"Jeff Utz" wrote
Gee, so whom should one believe for expert advice on the care of

children?

Not someone who thinks that deformed heads, poor sleep, and delayed
development are all ok.


When did anyone say that poor sleep, delayed development or deformed heads
are ok?

How about dead babies? Are they ok?


Yes, Roger, tell us. Would you sacrifice 2,000 American babies a year
to prevent this scourge of head deformity, sleep deprivation, and
developmental delay we all should be seeing?

PF
  #24  
Old July 10th 03, 05:55 AM
PF Riley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 16:43:58 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
wrote:

"Tsu Dho Nimh" wrote
Yes. Plus delayed development, less sound sleep, less sleep for
the moms, etc. The BS campaign was a bad idea.


Can you show evidence of the supposed delays in development, and
less sound sleep?


Try this:

The pattern of early motor development is affected by sleep position.
(Stomach sleepers) attain several motor milestones earlier than (back
sleepers).
http://www.kids-md.com/Tipsheets/21_.../crawling.html


This is the same as citing, in defense of a position against
seatbelts, a study that shows more people get wrinkles on their
clothes if they wear seatbelts.

PF
  #25  
Old July 10th 03, 01:09 PM
Tsu Dho Nimh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors

Brian Edmonds wrote:

"Roger Schlafly" writes:
There are other drawbacks to putting babies on their backs. Nowadays,
a lot of babies never even learn to crawl.


I can certainly see how this would become very limiting later in life.


It would be a serious problem for plumbers, electricians and IT
staff ... they all spend a lot of time crawling under things
doing installations.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré
  #26  
Old July 15th 03, 04:29 AM
LSU Grad of '89
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors

Ha, my baby started getting the flattened head and we were alarmed as son as
we noticed - at about 3 months. We got a positioner and put him on his side
to sleep.

I daresay most intelligent folks will figure it out - that is, if they are
not overwhelmed by life (too many children, work, etc.) to notice

L.

P.S. I find the lot of you rather arrogant ans silly. I do not know a single
"doctor" that has TIME TO WRITE silly accusations. " And yet again we
revisit a common theme from you, JG. Either by
arrogance or ignorance (or both?)" To what parents are you dispensing

advice ? People in the grocery line in front of you ?

This is a very strange group.

"PF Riley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:22:47 GMT, "JG" wrote:

"PF Riley" wrote in message
...

I'd say 48% sounds about right in my experience. What you fail to
realize is that for most of them, the deformity resolves with time.
Back to Sleep started in full force around 1994. Do you know many
9-year-olds with misshapen heads?


I know a couple of teenagers with rather severe craniofacial
abnormalities, but not because of supine sleeping. What I have
difficulty understanding is why the parents of the 48% with misshapen
heads either didn't notice the problem developing (!) or didn't take
corrective action (e.g., the suggestions in the article) sooner...


And yet again we revisit a common theme from you, JG. Either by
arrogance or ignorance (or both?) you seem to way overestimate the
average intelligence and common sense of the American public. As CBI
has pointed out, your problem in this case is not with the AAP
dispensing the advice, but with your perception that it shouldn't be
necessary.

I would say about half of the families to whom I point out the typical
occipital flattening and even occasional rhomboidal deformity
(unilateral occipital with contralateral frontal flattening) of
positional plagiocephaly during the 4 month check-up genuinely had not
noticed it themselves. How, then, would you expect these parents to
have begun taking corrective action?

PF



  #27  
Old July 15th 03, 06:24 PM
JG
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors

"CBI" wrote in message
...

"JG" wrote in message
t...


"Elizabeth Reid" wrote in message
om...


...It should be *ZERO*. How in the world could an otherwise

competent
parent .....


JG - the fallacy of your whinings is showing through.


First you whine about the AAP treating parents like idiots.
Then you whine that some of them are idiots.


Maybe there is some connection?
Perhaps the AAP is not being so unreasonable after all?


Many parents ARE idiots (incompetent). I believe the number, and
percent, of
"idiot parents" is increasing. A few reasons are obvious: Many
parents these days have (or had) less-than-ideal (and/or often absent)
parents
themselves ... A crappy (*overall*) public education system that turns
out future parents (and some teenagers who are *already* parents!) who
can't think (but who *think* they can think and who feel good about
themselves!) ... A culture (read: media) that continues to endorse and
encourage/promote self-centeredness--ME first, kid second ...
Politicians (and bureaucrats), intent on keeping their jobs, giving (or
trying to) all things to all people (even those who
neither need nor want to partake of gubmnt's largesse!), and have
thereby instilled a sense of both dependency and entitlement among much
of
the populace (why think for yourself when there's someone--some
bureaucrat--all too ready and willing to do it for you?) ... A federal
gubmnt that's made a habit of bailing out/subsidizing all sorts of
entities, including other gubmnts (e.g., cities) and corporations (e.g.,
Amtrak) as well as individuals (e.g., farmers) who DO screw up ... In
short, can you honestly deny that personal responsibility is a waning
virtue? But I digress...

As I've asserted before (previous threads), it's simply not possible to
educate a lot of idiots (the "uneducable"), no matter how hard one might
try. You can lead a horse (parent) to water...

The AAP apparently believes *all* parents are idiots, and thus
recommends pediatricians treat them as such (e.g., by asking MYOB
questions such as whether there are any guns in the house). As far as
head-flattening is concerned, if it's to the point where it's noticeable
(i.e., of medical concern) you'll have a hard time convincing me that
the parents themselves don't/haven't noticed it and taken some "common
sense"--intuitive--measures (such as those recommended in the article)
to alleviate/correct it.

If a pediatrician wants to cover his/her ass (against "failure to warn"
lawsuits), I'd suggest he/she simply put all his/her (i.e., the AAP's)
"advice" in a "new parent" booklet that can be given to all
new/expectant moms. Hand out an addendum regarding the importance of
repositioning infants to avoid smushed heads, if you wish.




  #28  
Old July 16th 03, 12:23 AM
JG
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors

"CBI" wrote in message
...

"JG" wrote in message
...


[...]

The AAP apparently believes *all* parents are idiots, and thus
recommends pediatricians treat them as such.


I've seen no examples of this.


Read some of the AAP's "policy statements"
(http://www.aap.org/policy/pprgtoc.cfm); those recommending that
pediatricians "advise" or "counsel" parents *never* state "when
appropriate" (or words to that effect), let alone "IF asked for
guidance." I guess the AAP doesn't believe pediatricians should (are
competent to?) discern which parents need what "advice."

Do you get ****ed off when you see an exit sign and you already knew

where
the exits are?


Of course not. Exit signs provide information (e.g., an exit number
and/or a street/highway name); they don't advise/recommend (state) "get
off here (to get to XXX)." Using lawn mowers (still my favorite example
:-D), the exit sign is analagous to the piece of information, "lawn
mower blades are sharp." I can do with any piece of information what I
want, i.e., either ignore it or use it in some way. In the case of the
mower blades (and being a rational individual g), I'll think, "Okay;
I'll be careful when I am (or my child is) around lawn mower blades."
In the case of the exit sign, I'll also either ignore it or use it
(either to exit or to estimate how much farther it is to the exit I
want). Now, when a pediatrician says, "Be careful with sharp lawn mower
blades; Buffy and Biff could get hurt if they're nearby while you're
mowing," he/she is dispensing more than information (that mower blades
are sharp)--he/she is giving advice. If I wanted/needed advice about
how to be "careful with sharp lawn mower blades," I'd *ask* (likely the
lawn mower manufacturer; NOT a pediatician). Likewise, if I
wanted/needed advice about exits (e.g., which ones to take to get to my
destination), I'd ask (either someone at my destination, an "expert" in
the vicinity [e.g., a gas station attendant], or a service [e.g.,
Mapquest] that provides advice/directions); the exit sign itself is not
"advice," "guidance," or "counselling."

Why do you think that some of those idiots don't own guns? Or do you

think
that nothing should be said to them?


Say something to them IF they solicit your advice/opinion (though why
they'd ask a pediatrician, rather than someone who sells devices
[lockboxes, gun locks] intended to reduce accidental gun
injuries/deaths, or even the police, is beyond me). While your concern
for your patients' welfare is understandable, it's really NONE of your
business whether there are guns in their homes. Do you ask if they have
a bathtub and, if the answer is "yes," *automatically* (invariably)
proceed to advise them on drowning prevention?

You can't have it both ways. If you
admit that there are some fools at them then there is nothing wrong

with
issuing advice to them.


And just how, Chris, do you identify, with TOTAL accuracy, the "idiot
parents"? Do you give prospective patients' parents a quiz? (Now how
insulting would THAT be--how many prospective patients would you lose?
....Q1: Lawn mowers (A) have very sharp blades and my child could be
injured if I'm not extremely careful when he/she is around one; (B) make
a great substitute for my kid's go cart when it's not available or out
of gas; (C) what's a lawn mower?...)

Making assumptions about a parent's intelligence/level of "common sense"
is risky, but the answer is certainly not to treat *every* parent
condescendingly, as if he/she is an idiot in need of nannying.


  #29  
Old July 16th 03, 08:28 AM
JG
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors

"PF Riley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:23:44 GMT, "JG" wrote:


"CBI" wrote in message
...


"JG" wrote in message
...


The AAP apparently believes *all* parents are idiots, and thus
recommends pediatricians treat them as such.


I've seen no examples of this.


Read some of the AAP's "policy statements"
(http://www.aap.org/policy/pprgtoc.cfm); those recommending that
pediatricians "advise" or "counsel" parents *never* state "when
appropriate" (or words to that effect), let alone "IF asked for
guidance." I guess the AAP doesn't believe pediatricians should (are
competent to?) discern which parents need what "advice."


Wrong. You failed to notice that every single Policy Statement ends
with the following:


"The recommendations in this statement do not indicate an exclusive
course of treatment or serve as a standard of medical care.
Variations, taking into account individual circumstances, may be
appropriate."


Thank you for pointing this out. I guess I've either (1) gagged or (2)
had my eyes glaze over before reaching the end of one. I stand
corrected.


  #30  
Old July 18th 03, 03:44 AM
CBI
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Infant flat skulls can be avoided: U.S. doctors


"JG" wrote in message
.. .

The AAP apparently believes *all* parents are idiots, and thus
recommends pediatricians treat them as such.


I've seen no examples of this.


Read some of the AAP's "policy statements"
(http://www.aap.org/policy/pprgtoc.cfm); those recommending that
pediatricians "advise" or "counsel" parents *never* state "when
appropriate" (or words to that effect), let alone "IF asked for
guidance." I guess the AAP doesn't believe pediatricians should (are
competent to?) discern which parents need what "advice."


In general the AAP assumes that neither the parent nor the pediatrician are
omnicient.



Do you get ****ed off when you see an exit sign and you already knew

where
the exits are?


Of course not. Exit signs provide information ...... I can do with any

piece
of information what I want, i.e., either ignore it or use it in some

way.......
... Now, when a pediatrician says, "Be careful with sharp lawn mower
blades; Buffy and Biff could get hurt if they're nearby while you're
mowing," he/she is dispensing more than information (that mower blades
are sharp)--he/she is giving advice. If I wanted/needed advice about
how to be "careful with sharp lawn mower blades," I'd *ask*


1) I think you are splitting hairs between giving information and giving
advice. It is nonsense to say that it would be OK to inform you of the
hazzards of lawnmower use but not to admonish you to be cautious of them.

2) When you go to the doc you are, in effect, asking for his advice (like it
or not).




Why do you think that some of those idiots don't own guns? Or do you

think
that nothing should be said to them?


Say something to them IF they solicit your advice/opinion


But the idiot is the one least likely to do so. You are setting up a
catch-22.


(though why
they'd ask a pediatrician, rather than someone who sells devices
[lockboxes, gun locks] intended to reduce accidental gun
injuries/deaths, or even the police, is beyond me).


The pediatrician is an expert (or should be). The gun dealer is a saleman.
The stated policies of the police largely agree with the AAP.



While your concern
for your patients' welfare is understandable, it's really NONE of your
business whether there are guns in their homes.


Concern for the wellfare of the patient is the business of the doctor.
Whether there are guns in the house (and ths issues such as storage and
supervision that stem from the question) affects that welfare.


Do you ask if they have
a bathtub and, if the answer is "yes," *automatically* (invariably)
proceed to advise them on drowning prevention?


I routinely discuss drowning prevention. Part of the discussion mentions
short unsupervised periods and shallow water such as is found in bathtubs.



You can't have it both ways. If you
admit that there are some fools at them then there is nothing wrong

with
issuing advice to them.


And just how, Chris, do you identify, with TOTAL accuracy, the "idiot
parents"?


You can't - that is my point.


Making assumptions about a parent's intelligence/level of "common sense"
is risky, but the answer is certainly not to treat *every* parent
condescendingly, as if he/she is an idiot in need of nannying.


Only an insecure person would feel that they are being treated like an
idiot.

--
CBI, MD


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Chiro care of baby penises (also: Dr. Poland never sued Dr. Gastaldo) Todd Gastaldo Pregnancy 6 April 7th 04 04:58 PM
(Illinois) Kids Count study finds high infant mortality rates in Coles, Edgar counties [email protected] General 1 June 28th 03 11:49 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 ParentingBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.