Homework for a 5 year old - how much involvement needed.

dragonlady wrote:
In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

But I suppose that if I conveyed the attitude that I believed that the
work was *pointless* or allowed him to continue to play games, attend
extracurricular activities, watch TV, etc when his homework wasn't
completed, he wouldn't do it.

I did none of that when my daughter was 8.

Ahh, now I see what you're referring to. You said:

And how do you handle it if your child is NOT struggleing with the
material -- but rather with the focus or desire or discipline to put her
butt in a chair and get the (repetitive and often pointless) work done?

I assumed that when you said that the work was *pointless,* this
attitude would be apparent to your child. I'm certain that if I had
that attitude, One would realize it. Do you mean that at the time, you
thought it was worthwhile, but have since changed your mind? Or that
you don't believe that your daughter was aware of your feelings?
Either way, my statement stands -- if One thought that I thought that
the work was useless, he wouldn't do it.

So you have a relatively compliant child who can be reasoned into doing
the right thing. I'm happy for you.

I didn't.

Instead, we ended up with her at the kitchen table (and me sitting
beside her, if that's what she wanted) for HOURS -- and the homework
still not done, and the other kids not getting attention they also
needed.

Eventually, I gave up the fight -- not until she was older than 8, but I
DID give up.

As far as I can tell, the struggle gained us nothing but unpleasantness.
--
I'm sorry for your troubles. But, this can be generalized across the
entire population to conclude that ALL or MOST children will be harmed
by doing any homework whatsoever before middle school -- as you seem to
be claiming -- because ....??????

Barbara

In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

dragonlady wrote:
In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

But I suppose that if I conveyed the attitude that I believed that the
work was *pointless* or allowed him to continue to play games, attend
extracurricular activities, watch TV, etc when his homework wasn't
completed, he wouldn't do it.

I did none of that when my daughter was 8.

Ahh, now I see what you're referring to. You said:

And how do you handle it if your child is NOT struggleing with the
material -- but rather with the focus or desire or discipline to put her
butt in a chair and get the (repetitive and often pointless) work done?

I assumed that when you said that the work was *pointless,* this
attitude would be apparent to your child. I'm certain that if I had
that attitude, One would realize it. Do you mean that at the time, you
thought it was worthwhile, but have since changed your mind? Or that
you don't believe that your daughter was aware of your feelings?
Either way, my statement stands -- if One thought that I thought that
the work was useless, he wouldn't do it.

I don't know that I DID think it was pointless at the beginning. \

I came to believe it was pointless after watching her struggle, taking
part in the struggle, and paying attention to what was being required of
her. I mean, what is the POINT of copying spelling words over 10 times
when they are words she already is spelling correctly?

What was the point of insisting on one sentence for EACH spelling word?
(One week I got her to get interested in using the spelling words by
seeing how FEW sentences she could write using all of the words. It was
marked wrong, and the teacher said she had to write one full sentence
for each word.)

(If the point was to practice penmanship, I'd understand -- but there
could be better approaches to that.)

What was the point to drilling math facts that she had down cold?

So, yes, over time, I DID come to believe it was pointless busy work,
being given out primarily because the Powers that Be had decreed that
homework was to be required.

Do you have a secret to keeping your child from picking up on that?

Or do you just always think that what the school is assigning must be a
good idea?


So you have a relatively compliant child who can be reasoned into doing
the right thing. I'm happy for you.

I didn't.

Instead, we ended up with her at the kitchen table (and me sitting
beside her, if that's what she wanted) for HOURS -- and the homework
still not done, and the other kids not getting attention they also
needed.

Eventually, I gave up the fight -- not until she was older than 8, but I
DID give up.

As far as I can tell, the struggle gained us nothing but unpleasantness.
--
I'm sorry for your troubles. But, this can be generalized across the
entire population to conclude that ALL or MOST children will be harmed
by doing any homework whatsoever before middle school -- as you seem to
be claiming -- because ....??????

Barbara


No -- not all will be harmed.

But some will, and there's no evidence that it helps any.

So why do it?
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:15:07 GMT, Nan wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:53:55 +0100, Barbara Bomberger
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:17:53 GMT, Nan wrote:



Yes, I can see how that would be a possible drawback. However, for
those parents complaining that homework is proven to be useless at
these grade levels, and how it interferes with their family life, it
could be a possible solution.
Until the grade actually means something, I don't get the push to
enforce it.

Nan

Too me t hat's inconsistent and confusion.

So just because its worth a grade instead of basic learning, the kid
doesnt have to do the work???

And how do you explain to the child why the homework is "important"
this year and it wasn't last year?

I am not a big believer in homework at the younger grades but I am a
big believer in consisten attitudes from parents and a big
non-believer in total concentration on grades.

Okay, I see a lot of good points for enforcing homework... so then,
why is everyone complaining about how useless it is?

Nan

Im not arguing the importance of homework.

I am arguing the idea that homework only becomes inportant when and if
it affects a letter grade. That teaches the child to concentrate on
grades, and again, how do you tell the child that last year you dont
give a whit if she did her homeowrk but this year youre gonna stand
over her with a whip until she gets it done every night.

If the difference is only that the second year affects a grade and the
first year did not, I dont hink thats good reasoning.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:58:19 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

But I suppose that if I conveyed the attitude that I believed that the
work was *pointless* or allowed him to continue to play games, attend
extracurricular activities, watch TV, etc when his homework wasn't
completed, he wouldn't do it.

I did none of that when my daughter was 8.

So you have a relatively compliant child who can be reasoned into doing
the right thing. I'm happy for you.

I didn't.

Instead, we ended up with her at the kitchen table (and me sitting
beside her, if that's what she wanted) for HOURS -- and the homework
still not done, and the other kids not getting attention they also
needed.

Eventually, I gave up the fight -- not until she was older than 8, but I
DID give up.

As far as I can tell, the struggle gained us nothing but unpleasantness.

Been there, done that

In article . com,
"Barbara" wrote:

My feeling is that kids need to practice what they've learned. I just
don't think it's unreasonable to ask a kid to do ten math problems,

@ 2 mins ea that's 20 mins....

If it is taking your first grader 2 minutes to answer 1+3, then its
signaling you that there's a problem that you need to address. They're
not doing calculus, you know. I'd give it 20 to 30 SECONDS each,
making it about 4 minutes.

DS1 is only going into K next year, so I'm guessing. I wouldn't have thought
that they would have addition of two single-digit numbers for homework.
There's also a tendency here to set word-based problems, so I was allowing
reading and writing time.

write sentences using his spelling words,

... assuming 20 words that's probably another 20-30 mins...

Gosh, let's assume 500 words, then its HOURS of homework! I've never
seen a 20 word spelling list yet, and One is in 3d grade.

That's based on my memory -- 20 words per week. Can't remember what we did
with them, though.

In general,
there are 10 words, plus 4 *challenge* words that they can *choose* to
learn. That's been the case since 1st grade. And since I've always
been able to find his spelling lists all over the 'net (and this year
found a school that connects games like hangman to every list -- One
enjoys playing them), I assume its a fairly widely-used spelling
curriculum.

Probably not over here, since we prefer gaol, harbour, judgement and memorise!

read a paragraph and answer a couple of questions about it,

...say another 10 mins...

50-60 mins of "reinforcement" seems to me a bit much for Grade 3-4 (here,
that
would be 8-9yos -- I think I was doing about 30 mins at that age), and
that's
assuming the child finds these things -- and the writing -- easy. I still
remember sobbing over my 3* and 4* tables in 3rd grade, and other kids were
probably sobbing over the word list at that time (I was a big reader and I
don't remember ever seeing an unfamiliar word on a spelling list).

But you're assuming that the kids get all of the work on the same
night, which isn't the case.

Yes I was -- this is the week's load, is it? I misunderstood.

And sometimes, homework if even fun. In second grade, map-reading
skills were reinforced by a homework assignment to draw a map of the
child's bedroom.

I'd call that homework worth doing. Personal experience with drills leads me
to believe that they are NOT a good thing to do at home. If you haven't
understood the basic concept properly, you can't do them (which is
disheartening) or you reinforce a wrong method (which is counterproductive).

I guess I find it difficult to believe that you were
crying about your 3 and 4 tables (multiplication?) at home, but
whizzing through them and getting straight A's at school. Our take is
that tears end homework -- if it's that much of a struggle, if you
really don't get the material, we'll let your teacher know so she can
help.

Unfortunately, I now have to tell you that my 3rd grade teacher was the worst
teacher I have ever encountered anywhere (and i work in education). She set
memorising the 3 times table as homework, and I was crying in frustration
because I just couldn't remember it. She liked to humiliate people: a friend
who got all her maths homework wrong was made to walk around the room showing
the row of red crosses to everyone in the class. I still remember not being
able to understand where on earth she got her long division answers from -- I
got Dad to show me the method *he'd* learnt at school, and at least that made
sense! I have just checked my report and I did in fact get fives (the top
mark) for all aspects of Maths, but was completely demoralised wrt it because
of hte teacher. I honestly believed I was bad at maths until calculators came
in in Year 8! And I was (always) one of the best students. Imagine how the
kids at the bottom of her class must have felt. If there's a special Hell for
bad teachers, she's in it.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

No, how about YOU offer me an apology. I don't appreciate flaming from
you. You don't agree with me, fine. But suggesting that my helping a
kid who is struggling is like holding a whip over him -- suggesting
that I abuse my child -- is disgusting.

That was not how I read it -- I took it as hyperbole in questioning, not as an
insinuation. Banty is a regular here, not a random troll.

I told you EXACTLY what I did when my kid struggled with arithmetic. I
explained things to him (in addition, that includes using
manipulatives). I played reinforcing math games with him (Hop to 100,
Monopoly Junior, Pizza Fraction Fun, and Math War come to mind, but
there were others, including a couple of computer games that he loved).

Where do you find out about games like these? (Storing away knowledge for the
future.)

But let me point out -- when
it comes to arithmetic, there is no substitute for the tedium of
memorization. Either you know what 7+5 is, or you don't.

The question is: how do you teach a child to memorise? I'm afraid only using
maths practically, over a long period of time, has improved my arithmetic.
I'm reasonably good now I'm 35!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

In article .com, Barbara
says...

Banty wrote:
In article .com, Barbara
says...


Banty wrote:
In article . com, Barbara
says...

Chookie wrote:
In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:
SNIP
My feeling is that kids need to practice what they've learned. I just
don't think it's unreasonable to ask a kid to do ten math problems,

@ 2 mins ea that's 20 mins....

If it is taking your first grader 2 minutes to answer 1+3, then its
signaling you that there's a problem that you need to address.

HOW! More drill, standing there with a whip? What what?
(Snip more of the same)

Ah, I see your point. Helping a struggling child is abusive. When you
sit down with a child who is having difficulty with a subject, and try
to explain it to him, it's as if you're abusing him. Sitting down and
explaining things to him? No, you can't do that -- its like you're
standing over him with a whip. Playing reinforcing math games with
him? Child abuse. Talking to the teacher about the problem? Drilling
him on memory facts? Abuse, abuse, abuse. We, as parents, are
obligated to sit back. The school will take care of the problem. Or
not. Who knows? But its not OUR role as parents to recognize when our
kids are struggling and to get them help.

Glad to hear that works for you. When my kid struggles, I get him help.
Frankly, I think that walking away from a struggling child is worse
than whipping him. And for the record, I've never hit my kid, and am
categorically opposed to doing so.

Oh calm down. And in all that rigamarole above you didn't offer much past "get
him help".

No, how about YOU offer me an apology. I don't appreciate flaming from
you. You don't agree with me, fine. But suggesting that my helping a
kid who is struggling is like holding a whip over him -- suggesting
that I abuse my child -- is disgusting.

I see you needed to spend more time on reading comprehension. I'll copy right
down from above:

____
If it is taking your first grader 2 minutes to answer 1+3, then its
signaling you that there's a problem that you need to address.

HOW! More drill, standing there with a whip? What what?
(Snip more of the same)
____

You were not referring to *your* child. So, the response did not refer to
*you*; it did not make an accusation.

You said "your first grader". You didn't say "my first grader".



I told you EXACTLY what I did when my kid struggled with arithmetic. I
explained things to him (in addition, that includes using
manipulatives). I played reinforcing math games with him (Hop to 100,
Monopoly Junior, Pizza Fraction Fun, and Math War come to mind, but
there were others, including a couple of computer games that he loved).
I drilled him with flashcards. I talked to his teachers about their
ideas for additional help. Yes, that boils down to *get him help*
What did you expect me to do -- hold a magic wand over his head that
would place facts and comprehension in his head?

You ONLY said "get him help". The rest was hysteria about child abuse. Look
again:

.com



When a child takes a long time over a problem, it isn't necessarily because of a
deficit in understanding it. It can be distraction, frustration, fatigue. Or,
in my son's case, relying too long on counting fingers, because he resisted the
tedium of memorization.

But can you say that when a kid takes a long time with a problem, it is
NEVER because of a lack of understanding? But let me point out -- when
it comes to arithmetic, there is no substitute for the tedium of
memorization. Either you know what 7+5 is, or you don't.

I think it's fairly clear to a parent when a problem is one of mastery vs. when
the problem is one of frustration or burnout.

Banty

wrote:
I don't know the full solution, but suspect that it is, at least in
part, to STOP giving homework until there is some proven benefit --
sometime around the beginning of middle school. At that age, a higher
percentage of kids are developmentally able to handle it.

Nan wrote:
If only the schools would see it that way!

In my opinion, it's not just the teachers and/or school that believes in the
homework. There are some parents who think that homework needs to be done
and get pretty ****y if their child is not assigned homework.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Barbara" wrote in message
Gosh, let's assume 500 words, then its HOURS of homework! I've never
seen a 20 word spelling list yet, and One is in 3d grade. In general,
there are 10 words, plus 4 *challenge* words that they can *choose* to
learn. That's been the case since 1st grade.

When Kara was in 1st grade, the teacher had the bright idea that for every
misspelled word a kid missed on the test, she was going to adds it to the
next week's list. At one week, Kara had 40 words to do over plus her
standard 15 words for the week. I put a stop to that. I was extremely upset
at this teacher and her expectations about what 1st graders should be doing
were definitely not in line with what they "were" able to do.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Barbara" wrote in
oups.com:


Nan wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:42:02 GMT, dragonlady
wrote:

I don't know the full solution, but suspect that it is,
at least in part, to STOP giving homework until there is
some proven benefit -- sometime around the beginning of
middle school. At that age, a higher percentage of kids
are developmentally able to handle it.

If only the schools would see it that way!

Nan

Ah, interesting! What percentage of kids are not
*developmentally ready* to do a reasonable amount of
homework (say, 1/2 an hour a night) at age 6? Age 7?
Exactly what capacity is it that kids need to develop to do
homework? I would have thought that a child who is
developmentally able to sit at a desk and write a few
sentences at school would be developmentally able to sit at
a desk and write those sentences at home. Could you help
me to understand how those cognitive processes differ? I'm
struggling to understand this.

just because a child is physically able, doesn't mean it's a
good thing to force on them. it's HARD for a 5-8 year old to
sit on thier butt for 35 hours/week. why should they have to
continue sitting on thier butts doing repetitive stuff once
they're out of school? how often do you bring YOUR work home?
i'll admit i'm looking at this from my experience of being
bored to tears in school & then having *more of the same*
boring stuff to do once i was supposedly "free" for the
afternoon. i suppose drill & practice works for some kids. i'd
guess that for the majority it merely foments a deep & lasting
hatred for the public school system... which is why my kid
will never see the inside of a public school (he recently
informed me that once he finished kindergarten, he was done
with school g). since i could not in good conscience force
my kid to do 'busy work' after school, i'll skip the issue.
lee
--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell